Guild Wars 2

obal.3218:

Staff guards are in for a treat tomorrow. No spoilers plz

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

People that staff bosses are bad players.

It will prove you wrong

If this is going to be something like the 5 ranger vs…. Well i’m curious now xD

obal.3218:

Staff guards are in for a treat tomorrow. No spoilers plz

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

People that staff bosses are bad players.

It will prove you wrong

You got my complete attention! o_O

I already know what’s coming

You are laughing at them, but they will form the meta of tomorrow!

Im expecting ground breaking stuff. Dont disappoint!

DigitalKirin.9714:

Heithinn.6508:

I don’t care how much damage I do – that’s not my role.

Would you be okay partying with a thief who tells you, “I don’t care about using my heals to keep myself alive – that’s not my role.”?

Well.. this isn’t even a proper analogy.. I didn’t say “I only heal myself, screw damage and everyone else”.

I said I play support – my damage is not my first priority, Keeping everyone alive and buffed IS. And last time I checked more people alive with higher numbers getting hit by less damage is better for a group than one selfish zerker guardian swirling around with a greatsword.

Syn Sity.5826:

Heithinn.6508:

swiftpaw.6397:

Not sure if serious.

No.. I am serious

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=-7;4RFV10H3kFF90;9;44-4TT;729B58620-120;0QitaQitaOJGB1-c170;1Y5Z5XaXaYaW57B-2F0JV9ecX9e;9;9;9;9;9;4V1N5c

Great in WvW too.

As someone stated the staff is a support weapon. I’ve been plying this way since BWE. It’s extremely effective support. I don’t care how much damage I do – that’s not my role. Honestly the fact that I do any damage at all is just a bonus. Let the other 4 people damage while I keep them cleansed, rez them, buff them and use whatever I can to make the fight easier be it a projectile reflect or stability.

All my symbols heal and they are all huge so when I drop Symbol of Swiftness I’m giving you swiftness to get out of the way of attacks, healing you with 5 pulses and giving you a Light combo field for cleansing or retaliation – so you do more damage and receive less. Meanwhile Orb of light heals whoever it passes by and I can detonate it for more healing. Empower gives Might and a heal at the end. And if you creatively use Line of Warding you can not only stop following enemies during runs but assist kiters or protect the range camp from attacks. I heal you when I dodge, you all have my Virtue of Resolve passive heal – which is stronger and stacks with Regen as it’s a separate buff. My Mega support Elite lasts 10 seconds longer, which is a lot when you can spam Heal Area. And I have 3 group cleanses not including cleases that happen with Light Field.

Why Toughness and Boon duration? Well.. I need to be alive to heal and rez you don’t I? I already have plenty to cleanse, so Vitality is moot. With Boon Duration I get longer regen and protection. And yes I am lacking on damage, so the longer I can keep my might or fury or whatever boons are flying around the better off I am. Granted, it may take me a year to kill something, but I’ll still be standing.

As I stated, I was a healer for 6 years, this is the role I am comfortable in, it’s a role I enjoy.

So when you see a Guardian with a Staff… assume this is why.

There are so many things I want to say to you…

Then say them :-) or am I supposed to be a scared, kitten little girl who can’t take criticism or allow other people to have opinions?

swiftpaw.6397:

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

People that staff bosses are bad players. As such, don’t expect an intelligent, well reasoned answer for why they do what the do. The best answer you’ll get is, “I’m running a staff build lolz ofcourse I use staff, you elitist!”

I am going to have to edit this now.

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

People that staff bosses are self convinced players. As such, don’t expect an intelligent, well reasoned answer for why they do what the do.The best answer you’ll get is, “I’m running a staff build because I’m a healer and it’s my role and I support the team and res people”

Awe, there’s still some errors, here, lemme help…

Nike Porphyrogenita.8137:

People that staff bosses are selfless players. As such, don’t expect unintelligible, egotistical answer for why they do what the do. The best answer you’ll get is, “I’m running a staff build because all the Zerkers and damage stackers are too focused on their numbers to dodge attacks or heal themselves and have no mitigation”

Heithinn.6508:

DigitalKirin.9714:

Heithinn.6508:

I don’t care how much damage I do – that’s not my role.

Would you be okay partying with a thief who tells you, “I don’t care about using my heals to keep myself alive – that’s not my role.”?

Well.. this isn’t even a proper analogy.. I didn’t say “I only heal myself, screw damage and everyone else”.

I said I play support – my damage is not my first priority, Keeping everyone alive and buffed IS. And last time I checked more people alive with higher numbers getting hit by less damage is better for a group than one selfish zerker guardian swirling around with a greatsword.

This is a perfectly reasonable analogy. In this game, every character has responsibility over three roles: DPS, Support(boons/damagebuffs/survivabilitybuffs), and healing. You willfully choose to give up damage to produce as much +healing and +survivability, right? So why can’t a thf give up one of those roles (healing) to focus on one of the other roles? If your mindset works as intended, then his damage should make up for your lack, and your healing should make up for his lack.

The misconception you have is that doing damage is selfish. This is incorrect. If a monster dies faster, then it can deal less damage to the team. That actually means that increasing the speed of kills in a dungeon will help your teammates out.

Let me put an example before you:
Would you rather have a 15 second fight with 5 seconds of protection and 2 aegis, or would you rather have a 3 minute fight with permaprotect and 5 aegis uses? Which one do you think would actually lead to someone being more likely to die?

Edit: Regarding “Selfish zerker guardian” You do know that even a full zerk guardian can provide aegis, protection, reflects, heals, etc. too, right?

Double Edit: “I said I play support” You also said “I don’t care” which to me is an insult to anyone in your group. When you’re on a team, every action the team does matters, and to say that “you don’t care” about one aspect is really disrespecting your team. Keeping your team alive matters, absolutely. But so does making things dead before they can kill your team.

If your team isn’t made of cotton then it doesn’t matter when things die. I’d rather have a team that can survive as well as damage rather than a entire team thatcan be one shotted..

Everyone wants to put people down for using a staff, and say they are bad players or whatever.They are prbably better than any one would ever think because they know how to survive while all everyone else knows how to do is max out DPS and kill stuff, But PLEASE Don’t hit me too hard…

Nuklbone.1462:

If your team isn’t made of cotton then it doesn’t matter when things die. I’d rather have a team that can survive as well as damage rather than a entire team thatcan be one shotted..

I do believe that surviving is a very important thing in a dungeon. Dying too much would be self-defeating in the goal of doing a dungeon, and it’s just not fun.

However, let’s say you do a no death CoF P1 run in 40 minutes. Would you be perfectly happy doing CoF P1 forever at 40 minutes, or would you care to see if you could do a CoF P1 run at 39 minutes? What if you do a CoF P1 run at 39 minutes with no death? Etc.

The point is to improve and push the boundary of your skill ceiling without self-nerfing yourself. Use everything you have intelligently and tactically.

DigitalKirin.9714:

Heithinn.6508:

DigitalKirin.9714:

Heithinn.6508:

I don’t care how much damage I do – that’s not my role.

Would you be okay partying with a thief who tells you, “I don’t care about using my heals to keep myself alive – that’s not my role.”?

Well.. this isn’t even a proper analogy.. I didn’t say “I only heal myself, screw damage and everyone else”.

I said I play support – my damage is not my first priority, Keeping everyone alive and buffed IS. And last time I checked more people alive with higher numbers getting hit by less damage is better for a group than one selfish zerker guardian swirling around with a greatsword.

This is a perfectly reasonable analogy. In this game, every character has responsibility over three roles: DPS, Support(boons/damagebuffs/survivabilitybuffs), and healing. You willfully choose to give up damage to produce as much +healing and +survivability, right? So why can’t a thf give up one of those roles (healing) to focus on one of the other roles? If your mindset works as intended, then his damage should make up for your lack, and your healing should make up for his lack.

The misconception you have is that doing damage is selfish. This is incorrect. If a monster dies faster, then it can deal less damage to the team. That actually means that increasing the speed of kills in a dungeon will help your teammates out.

Let me put an example before you:
Would you rather have a 15 second fight with 5 seconds of protection and 2 aegis, or would you rather have a 3 minute fight with permaprotect and 5 aegis uses? Which one do you think would actually lead to someone being more likely to die?

Edit: Regarding “Selfish zerker guardian” You do know that even a full zerk guardian can provide aegis, protection, reflects, heals, etc. too, right?

No, I completely understand what you’re saying. It’s not as if I have 0 attack, I still have 2.4k attack, it’s not as if I set out to NOT do damage.

The reason I built this toon like this is because 1) When I first started out on GW2 I wanted something I was comfortable with. 2) I don’t want all my toons for full on damage, I want each to have it’s place. 3) I pug out a lot in LFG and the general population of “pugs” don’t pay attention and don’t care about anyone else in the group OR they have never done the dungeon before and need the extra support.

And yes, I know full Zerkers CAN do all that stuff.. but the majority don’t. They only heal when they need healing, they only aegis when they need aegis. And when they are on CD they get hit like a truck because they have barely any mitigation stats – generally only from the 5-10 trait points they used outside of their main power traits.

SO, in a perfect group where everyone dodged and used their available damage reduction skills, and group buffs on their well rounded toons – I would have no desire to be a support guardian, because I wouldn’t be useful. I have had over a year to see how useful I am.

The original question of this thread was why a guardian would use a staff, not the merit or viability of anyone’s build or play style. And though I could go full out damage I choose not to on this toon – I have other toons that do different types of damage. I choose to play a role Anet intended for my profession, even if it’s not the most popular. Everyone else can play however they want, just like me. So as for your original comment about the thief – that’s fine because I can generally keep everyone topped off for the most part. Whatever floats your boat.

Id prefer to do a 5min cof p1 with no deaths. Or no cof p1 at all.

exactly.. And who’s say these people aren’t? Just because they don’t follow suit and make themselves dps machines. Run with one of these people who really know how to play the build correctly..Im sure you will be surprized..

Oh, wow, look at this post on another thread… hmmm..
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Lupi-Staff-Guardian-Solo

Using that video to justify a staff support build in dungeons is just hilarious^^ please go on, popcorns are ready.

Luke.2643:

Using that video to justify a staff support build in dungeons is just hilarious^^ please go on, popcorns are ready.

Funny… I thought this thread was about “Why a Guardian would use a Staff…”. Well, that video shows a Guardian… using (wait for it)… a Staff (omg!!) to solo a boss.

I have no need to justify my build…. but your popcorn looks tasty.

Should note it took him 3 times longer to solo that boss with the staff.

Heithinn.6508:

No, I completely understand what you’re saying. It’s not as if I have 0 attack, I still have 2.4k attack, it’s not as if I set out to NOT to damage.

The reason I built this toon like this is because 1) When I first started out on GW2 I wanted something I was comfortable with. 2) I don’t want all my toons for full on damage, I want each to have it’s place. 3) I pug out a lot in LFG and the general population of “pugs” don’t pay attention and don’t care about anyone else in the group OR they have never done the dungeon before and need the extra support.

And yes, I know full Zerkers CAN do all that stuff.. but the majority don’t. They only heal when they need healing, they only aegis when they need aegis. And when they are on CD they get hit like a truck because they have barely any mitigation stats – generally only from the 5-10 trait points they used outside of their main power traits.

SO, in a perfect group where everyone dodged and used their available damage reduction skills, and group buffs on their well rounded toons – I would have no desire to be a support guardian, because I wouldn’t be useful. I have had over a year to see how useful I am.

The original question of this thread was why a guardian would use a staff, not the merit or viability of anyone’s build or play style. And though I could go full out damage I choose not to on this toon. I choose to play a role Anet intended for my profession, even if it’s not the most popular. Everyone else can play however they want, just like me.

Just talking about your +attack is misleading. You have no crit, no crit dmg., the weapons you’re using are the worst weapons for straight up damage. The only damage points you traited are the 5 points you used outside of your defensive options. The only reason you happen to have power in your gear is because Cleric’s has power on it. You were right the first time. You don’t care about damage. For the amount of potential damage you could do, on a scale of 1-10, your build does a 1. Btw, I’m not asking you to do a 10. I’m fine with a 7.

1. Being comfortable with something is perfectly fine. However, being comfortable forever isn’t good. If you really are a person of competence that you say you are, why not start mixing in some DPS stats and seeing how it affects your support ability/survivability? Then, improve your gameplay through resource management and wash, rinse, repeat.

2. Each toon having its place is fine. But remember that dungeons are a team game. People rely on each other to handle all three aspects of DPS, Support, Healing. You never refuted the fact that each player is responsible for all three. If you’re not fulfilling the potential of all three aspects to the best of your ability, then you are bringing down your team.

I believe that a support/defense guardian is better focused into WvW. Zergs crashing into each other require proper coordination and buffing. The danger of fighting living breathing intelligent people is much higher than fighting AI. Defensive support is way more important here. It’s also why I (almost) never take a zerk build into WvW. (I only do on my thief so I can burst down squirrels.)

3. I Pug a lot as well. Pugs can be unpredictable. But what you’re doing is essentially forfeiting having Great PUG groups to try to prevent a bad Pug group from being bad. You say “In a perfect group … I would have no desire to be a support guardian”. The problem is you’ll never be in a perfect group… because you’ll be using a support guardian.
————————
The original question directly relates to build viability because the OP sees guards using staves during boss fights and wants to know the thought process behind someone choosing to use this weapon.

“a role Anet intended for my profession”: ANet’s intent is to provide tools to allow players to create many different builds – some offensive, some defensive, and some inbetween, all with different flavors.

The players that you play with have their own intent that you need to consider as well. Don’t ignore your fellow players’ intent by pointing to ANet when you’re running a dungeon.

You are absolutely free to play how you want, and if you choose to continue playing a clericy staff/mace guardian, it’s not like there’s anything I could Really do to stop you. However just know that you may be sacrificing some of your teammates’ enjoyment of this game by bringing down their gameplay experience if you choose to team up with people who Aren’t looking for a cleric guardian to run dungeons with.

spoj.9672:

Id prefer to do a 5min cof p1 with no deaths. Or no cof p1 at all.

Baby steps, spoj, that’s all I’m doing.

Nuklbone.1462:

exactly.. And who’s say these people aren’t? Just because they don’t follow suit and make themselves dps machines. Run with one of these people who really know how to play the build correctly..Im sure you will be surprized..

I am always surprised… that it takes 3 passes to kill evolved destroyer instead of 1. Then I find out that only myself and the engi is zerker.

I don’t play one of these toons but I can tell you there is a huge difference when you’re running with one who knows how to play the build.. It’s nice never having to even worry about a heal. Because when the “Support Team” really knows how to play the build you don’t have to.. I know for sure if Luke had one of the good ones in his Solo Lup vid he would not have almost gotten 1 shotted at 2:21 of the vid..

It’s funny how you’re all saying hey play how you want but putting people down for it. It’s a game it’s meant to be fun for everyone. You know what they say opinions are like and everybody has one.

I bet all you MAX DPS people would be the same people that posted “Looking For Hunter must Have 40k dps”.. The same people who will kill yet another great game..

Just my opinion .

Nuklbone.1462:

I know for sure if Luke had one of the good ones in his Solo Lup vid he would not have almost gotten 1 shotted at 2:21 of the vid..

The problem with using a solo dungeon boss example where the debate has been with group dungeon boss examples is that a solo run requires a different mindset. There’s nobody to rely on but yourself. You only have 3 utility slots to fiddle with. You make concessions in your build to optimize survivability juuuust enough to survive.

Maybe Luke almost got one shotted. But he specced smartly and didn’t. That’s why videos like this are impressive. Because it highlights a person who intelligently managed his resources to do something that 5 people often have difficulty doing.

Re: Putting people down. I am fine with him running a build that isn’t zerk. But you have to join a group that has to be absolutely okay with you running said build. The same goes for the opposite, if you dislike people who run zerkers because they go down too much, make sure you specify in your lfg that you don’t want zerkers.

My arguments to the pros and cons of the build aren’t a personal insult to him. I’m sure he’s a very nice person. If you are talking about which is better and which isn’t, I will debate the validity of tactics in as professional manner as I can.

Heithinn.6508:

Oh, wow, look at this post on another thread… hmmm..
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Lupi-Staff-Guardian-Solo

I know it would happened eventually. And it will be the talk of the town in Guardian Sub-forum. Yesssss!

Nuklbone.1462:

I bet all you MAX DPS people would be the same people that posted “Looking For Hunter must Have 40k dps”.. The same people who will kill yet another great game..

Just my opinion .

Notice how there are no red posts made post update on the first 5 pages of the Fractured section yet there are so many issues old and new. It’s not the players that killed the game.

DigitalKirin.9714:

Nuklbone.1462:

I know for sure if Luke had one of the good ones in his Solo Lup vid he would not have almost gotten 1 shotted at 2:21 of the vid..

The problem with using a solo dungeon boss example where the debate has been with group dungeon boss examples is that a solo run requires a different mindset. There’s nobody to rely on but yourself. You only have 3 utility slots to fiddle with. You make concessions in your build to optimize survivability juuuust enough to survive.

Maybe Luke almost got one shotted. But he specced smartly and didn’t. That’s why videos like this are impressive. Because it highlights a person who intelligently managed his resources to do something that 5 people often have difficulty doing.

Which is exacty what the Staff vid shows.. But just because it’s a staff that vid is some how irrelivent get over yourselves you have opinions like every one else the only difference is you guys are trying to force yours onto other players and make them do something for you… They’re not playing their toon for you.. They’re playing it for themselves..

I guess the difference is I play the game to have fun. I don’t care what build you run if you’re in a group with me I’m not enough of a Kitten hole to tell you to leave or kick you you’re on the game for the same reason as me to have fun some people just have that mindset of an kitten hat..

You can go head and admit it you want everything as easy as possible god forbid you actually challenge yourself and your team to actually become better players rather than just melt everything down with your scorching dps that will destroy all comers because you are god. I mean it’s great that you can hit something for 30,000 it just sucks getting hit like that once would almost kill your toon twice..The viability of either builds DPS or Staff is not what’s really being discussed here because not every group in the game wants to run by everything go right to the boss and clear.. some people want to have fun it doesn’t matter how long it takes so no one is right about the builds either way it’s all about play style and how a person wants to play/build their toon. Apparently you speeders don’t like how people build if they do not build like you..

UGH, message too long with all the quotes, but anyway…

Yep – Damage is not my first priority. However you didn’t notice/mention I get a ~15% damage increase from traits. 10% For low Endurance – since I dodge to stay alive and Heal I am low 99% of the time. 1% for each boon I have – 95% of the time I have Aegis, Retallaition, Regeneration, Protection & Might, all of which stay on me longer due to Boon Duration. I’m glad you’re fine with a 7. I’m fine with my spec.

Being comfortable forever suits me just fine, why would I want to be uncomfortable with something I do to relax and have fun? If I didn’t have other toons I enjoy playing as well I’d mix it up a bit, but I built this toon to be Support, and that’s what she does.

Healing, Buffing, Reviving, providing combo fields.. I know, I may as well just go to a corner and /sit because I’m not pulling big numbers huh.

Yep, I use it here too.

Again, you’re assuming I’m useless because I don’t pull big numbers. And you’re right, I never will be in a perfect group, but it’s not because “I’m a support guardian” it’s because of the variety of people, some good, some bad. Me switching out my spec is not going to improve group quality. I do have great pug groups, because I try to prevent bad ones.
————————

I have shown a spec where a staff is a viable part of a play style.

One of those builds/flavors being Full on Support, just like your Full on Damage.

I’m pretty sure the intent shared by all is to make it through the dungeon. If they want speed runs, all zerkers, etc… they generally post it in the LFG advertisement.

Seriously? I could give 2 squats what someones spec is, and I am not so judgmental that I scope out everyone in my group to criticize their choice. The only time enjoyment is sacrificed is when some rude elitist ruins the fun vibe the rest of the group has.. and people like that are easily replaced.

Heithinn.6508:

Luke.2643:

Using that video to justify a staff support build in dungeons is just hilarious^^ please go on, popcorns are ready.

Funny… I thought this thread was about “Why a Guardian would use a Staff…”. Well, that video shows a Guardian… using (wait for it)… a Staff (omg!!) to solo a boss.

I have no need to justify my build…. but your popcorn looks tasty.

I was in the mumble channel when my good old friend here made this video. It’s here to stir the pot and I asked that he put it in this thread XD

In other words, this is not something we would recommend you actually do, it is slow and painful compared to the other specs.

Now, as for the walls of text above. If you know that as a guard you can provide excellent support even as dps spec, then why don’t you? You say that many zerker guards don’t do that. I agree, they don’t. Because they are poor players, much like many cleric’s guards. But because you acknowledge that you can indeed support your team in full zerker just as well, and in fact better than clerics because you supply dps on top, then I suggest you try it.

This is why I linked a picture of a stampede in my original comment to you. Because I knew it was only a matter of time before the herd got here to tell you what is common knowledge. You are better support for your dungeon team in zerker.

obal.3218:

Nuklbone.1462:

I bet all you MAX DPS people would be the same people that posted “Looking For Hunter must Have 40k dps”.. The same people who will kill yet another great game..

Just my opinion .

Notice how there are no red posts made post update on the first 5 pages of the Fractured section yet there are so many issues old and new. It’s not the players that killed the game.

This game had so much potential when it was released, but ever since the introduction of the fractals, the devs have been really busy ruining all of it

Nuklbone.1462:

Which is exacty what the Staff vid shows.. But just because it’s a staff that vid is some how irrelivent get over yourselves you have opinions like every one else the only difference is you guys are trying to force yours onto other players and make them do something for you… They’re not playing their toon for you.. They’re playing it for themselves..

The video isn’t irrelevant because of the staff. The video is irrelevant because we’re discussing a group setting and the video is a solo video. However, if you wanna discuss Obal’s solo videos of staff vs his DPS video, then I do entreat you to do so.

I would like to point out your last line. “They’re not playing their toon for you.. They’re playing it for themselves..” That’s just the problem. It seems strange to me to call things like zerker builds selfish when this is the attitude people carry in about their own build.

Nuklbone.1462:

I guess the difference is I play the game to have fun. I don’t care what build you run if you’re in a group with me I’m not enough of a Kitten hole to tell you to leave or kick you you’re on the game for the same reason as me to have fun some people just have that mindset of an kitten hat..

The difference isn’t actually that you play the game to have fun. We all play the game to have fun. The difference lies in how we accomplish this idea of fun. If you wanna kick back, relax and enjoy a 4 hr Arah P4, please by all means do, so long as the company you keep shares a like mind. And I would say to the people who want zerk only, please make sure you specify in your lfgs that you want zerk only. It’s when the two groups cross that everyone comes into conflict. Because the METHOD of how we have fun is at cross purposes.

If everyone grouped with people of the same mindset, I think we’d all be a lot happier and collectively all have more fun. We just have to CARE enough to take the extra step to seek out those of our like minds.

Nuklbone.1462:

The viability of either builds DPS or Staff is not what’s really being discussed here because not every group in the game wants to run by everything go right to the boss and clear

You’re absolutely right. The Viability isn’t being discussed here. The OP asked why people use staff instead of something like GS or Sword/focus. This discussion is about efficiency. The staff is not efficient as a main weapon during a boss fight.

Heithinn.6508:

UGH, message too long with all the quotes, but anyway…

Yep – Damage is not my first priority. However you didn’t notice/mention I get a ~15% damage increase from traits. 10% For low Endurance – since I dodge to stay alive and Heal I am low 99% of the time. 1% for each boon I have – 95% of the time I have Aegis, Retallaition, Regeneration, Protection & Might, all of which stay on me longer due to Boon Duration. I’m glad you’re fine with a 7. I’m fine with my spec.

Being comfortable forever suits me just fine, why would I want to be uncomfortable with something I do to relax and have fun? If I didn’t have other toons I enjoy playing as well I’d mix it up a bit, but I built this toon to be Support, and that’s what she does.

Healing, Buffing, Reviving, providing combo fields.. I know, I may as well just go to a corner and /sit because I’m not pulling big numbers huh.

Yep, I use it here too.

Again, you’re assuming I’m useless because I don’t pull big numbers. And you’re right, I never will be in a perfect group, but it’s not because “I’m a support guardian” it’s because of the variety of people, some good, some bad. Me switching out my spec is not going to improve group quality. I do have great pug groups, because I try to prevent bad ones.
————————

I have shown a spec where a staff is a viable part of a play style.

One of those builds/flavors being Full on Support, just like your Full on Damage.

I’m pretty sure the intent shared by all is to make it through the dungeon. If they want speed runs, all zerkers, etc… they generally post it in the LFG advertisement.

Seriously? I could give 2 squats what someones spec is, and I am not so judgmental that I scope out everyone in my group to criticize their choice. The only time enjoyment is sacrificed is when some rude elitist ruins the fun vibe the rest of the group has.. and people like that are easily replaced.

You’re right, damage isn’t your first priority, it’s your last priority. As you said before, you don’t care about damage. The two traits you mentioned are minor traits that you pick up “along the way” to more defensive options. In terms of resource management, your use of your points into 30honor/30virtues instead of 10zeal/25radiance is a loss of DPS, not an improvement.

If you’re okay with being comfortable, then there isn’t much I can say to change your mind, and I’m cool with that. But facts remain, the utility you provide to a group will be lower because you’re neglecting 1/3 of your job duties in a group. So instead, I encourage you to make sure to play with only like minded people to minimize the amount of conflict you might come across if you happen to party up with someone who plays this game to have fun by challenging and improving themselves. You’ll be happy and having fun, and they’ll be happy and having fun. It would be a win-win for everyone.

As far as enjoyment being sacrificed, that happens when people knock heads due to conflicting methods of having fun. If you blame “elitists” don’t forget that “casuals” are just as equally to blame. The solution is to stop blaming each other and start being mindful of each other. Stop saying “I don’t care” and start saying “I care.” If you want to run a build of one type, make sure it’s okay with the rest of your group. If you’re the sole “zerker elitist” in a group of “bunker support casuals” just gracefully bow out. Same with the opposite. And if you’re in a group where someone bows out, don’t look down on them for leaving. They’re saving everyone lots of potential conflict and headache.

Staff OP. It single-handedly beat Lupicus. I smell a new meta.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Lupi-Staff-Guardian-Solo/first#post3300991

DigitalKirin.9714:

Heithinn.6508:

I don’t care how much damage I do – that’s not my role.

Would you be okay partying with a thief who tells you, “I don’t care about using my heals to keep myself alive – that’s not my role.”?

If they don’t need it, sure.

DigitalKirin.9714:

Stop saying “I don’t care” and start saying “I care.” If you want to run a build of one type, make sure it’s okay with the rest of your group. If you’re the sole “zerker elitist” in a group of “bunker support casuals” just gracefully bow out. Same with the opposite. And if you’re in a group where someone bows out, don’t look down on them for leaving. They’re saving everyone lots of potential conflict and headache.

qft

There are some things I’d like to point out:

I can pop my virtues much more frequently

Who said so? one of the most used DPS builds has 25 in virtues.

I can stand in the middle of the battle field and revive people so they can get back in the fight.

If you really need to revive people that often it means that they dont know how to dodge or how to take advantage of the mechanics of their classes.

I can cleanse the stacks of conditions that are killing you.

I can remove 3 conditions with f2, 3 more with purging flames, 3 more with elite + f2 again. Please point out to me a situation where this wouldn’t be enough.

A dps guardian can provide all the support needed in any situation, and one of it’s best advantages is it can spam a huge amount of blinds. The downside is that, well, you need to know your class and have experience to stay alive.

Heithinn.6508:

swiftpaw.6397:

Now, as for the walls of text above. If you know that as a guard you can provide excellent support even as dps spec, then why don’t you? You say that many zerker guards don’t do that. I agree, they don’t. Because they are poor players, much like many cleric’s guards. But because you acknowledge that you can indeed support your team in full zerker just as well, and in fact better than clerics because you supply dps on top, then I suggest you try it.

Woah now. I never said a dps spec could provide “excellent support”. I agreed that they too posses virtues and other skills that can provide support to a group. This support is less frequent and not used as a primary function but rather as just a “bonus to my awesome damage” from the dps guardian. I can pop my virtues much more frequently and I am able to share some of my passive effects with the group. I can stand in the middle of the battle field and revive people so they can get back in the fight. I can cleanse the stacks of conditions that are killing you. This is my primary focus. I have built myself around helping you and the other 3 people in the group so you can focus on why you built your toon the way you did – to tear things apart. When do you use your heals and support skills? When it suits you right? I use mine constantly, my bar is full of them and they are all on cooldown. So please.. shut up and DPS.

Firstly, if you want rational conversation, it is best not to become emotionally involved.

Secondly. Dps is support in game. This is a thing that many cannot get around their heads, and for good reason to. People get stuck in the trinity mindset of other games. I myself played a cleric in aion and healing was all I ever did. However, GW2 is a different kettle of fish. Despite what you think, due to the mechanism of dodging and focus 3 blocks + blind spam, I do not need to waste my virtues or removals on myself at all.

These are saved entirely for the team. You have a misconception that because I wear a berserker set instead of a cleric’s set, I am somehow unable to prove the same amount of support. The reality is that I sacrifice the very poor scale-ability of healing power for damage stats so that mobs die faster, meaning that my team does not have to endure longer fights, whilst I still give out the same amount of boons and control.

Personally I think this is falling into the pigeon chess category of conversation. Which is where I suspected it would go from the very first post. It’s not worth the time or effort to convince you.

swiftpaw.6397:

The reality is that I sacrifice the very poor scale-ability of healing power for damage stats so that mobs die faster, meaning that my team does not have to endure longer fights, whilst I still give out the same amount of boons and control.

This is the sad state of affairs when it comes to ‘support’ in GW2’s PvE. Defensive boons and stats simply aren’t powerful enough to counter mobs that hit for such high damage with spaced out burst attacks. Healing power scales very poorly on nearly everything in the game, so there’s no reason to take it over a higher chance to get a critical hit that will allow you to dodge more often to mitigate the damage entirely. Protection doesn’t offer much when it just turns a 20k hit into a 13k hit when you have a 12k HP pool.

This is one thing that creates such a divide between PvE and PvP meta. In PvP damage is dealt through smaller, but quicker attacks. Because you can’t dodge so many attacks within such a short span of time, defensive gear is more viable because it allows you to survive long enough to tank the extra hits you can’t dodge until you can either dodge more, heal, or provide other methods to ensure you can win the fight.

For proof of this, just look at the mechanics behind confusion. Since it’s based on skill usage, it’s much more effective in PvP where players are constantly using skills and attacks that deal damage throughout successive strikes that add up. In PvE you can use confusion on a boss, but since it only attacks once every 3 seconds you’re not going to be doing much no matter how high your condition damage is.

I was once one of the “Healing power/toughness AH guards in dungeons.” However this is nowhere near a good “support” dungeon role. Support can come through buffing allies with things like protection (hammer AA), WOR, Shouts, Condi Clear. These are things that you don’t need toughness/healing power to actually do.

The longer your dungeon run takes (which it will if you have a healer spec or more than one healer spec), the more chances you have of making mistakes that can lead to wipes. In most dungeon runs everything one shots you anyways so anything beyond your personal heal is kind of a moot skill.

i was in a dungeon or fractal with a so-called healing specced Guardian. and we had times where we wiped. why didn’t he support us enough? why did he go down himself? maybe cause the fights dragged out longer than it could have been achieved.

if you enjoy a certain way of playing, then by all means go for it. and like mentioned, got for it with like-minded people. there’s no need to rain down on somebody else’s parade.

people need to stop saying “no zerkers”. it should be “no zerkers that don’t know how to play in zerkers”. there’s a major difference. if i have my 10 month old son (and yes, i am using an extreme example) in full cleric’s gear and have him take on Lupi, will he be able to survive for sure, jsu cause he’s specced for “support” and “healing”? probably not, beacuse he has no idea what he’d be doing. so, stay with me here, it’s not JUST the gear that determines the outcome any given fight. the skill of said player is more important, i daresay. and even more so, the MIND SET of said player.

if i am full zerker and don’t dodge.. yes, even i wouldn’t want to play with myself.
if i am a full cleric’s and don’t DPS.. well, i wouldn’t want to play with myself, either.

Heithinn.6508:

swiftpaw.6397:

Now, as for the walls of text above. If you know that as a guard you can provide excellent support even as dps spec, then why don’t you? You say that many zerker guards don’t do that. I agree, they don’t. Because they are poor players, much like many cleric’s guards. But because you acknowledge that you can indeed support your team in full zerker just as well, and in fact better than clerics because you supply dps on top, then I suggest you try it.

Woah now. I never said a dps spec could provide “excellent support”. I agreed that they too posses virtues and other skills that can provide support to a group. This support is less frequent and not used as a primary function but rather as just a “bonus to my awesome damage” from the dps guardian. I can pop my virtues much more frequently and I am able to share some of my passive effects with the group. I can stand in the middle of the battle field and revive people so they can get back in the fight. I can cleanse the stacks of conditions that are killing you. This is my primary focus. I have built myself around helping you and the other 3 people in the group so you can focus on why you built your toon the way you did – to tear things apart. When do you use your heals and support skills? When it suits you right? I use mine constantly, my bar is full of them and they are all on cooldown. So please.. shut up and DPS.

What exactly do you do when you find yourself in a group with four people who actually know how to dodge/mitigate damage and don’t need your support?

Syn Sity.5826:

What exactly do you do when you find yourself in a group with four people who actually know how to dodge/mitigate damage and don’t need your support?

I would practise for incoming (at least datamined) Tag Team instability!

haviz.1340:

Syn Sity.5826:

What exactly do you do when you find yourself in a group with four people who actually know how to dodge/mitigate damage and don’t need your support?

I would practise for incoming (at least datamined) Tag Team instability!

And they said clerics support guardians weren’t useful for anything…

Syn Sity.5826:

Heithinn.6508:

swiftpaw.6397:

Now, as for the walls of text above. If you know that as a guard you can provide excellent support even as dps spec, then why don’t you? You say that many zerker guards don’t do that. I agree, they don’t. Because they are poor players, much like many cleric’s guards. But because you acknowledge that you can indeed support your team in full zerker just as well, and in fact better than clerics because you supply dps on top, then I suggest you try it.

Woah now. I never said a dps spec could provide “excellent support”. I agreed that they too posses virtues and other skills that can provide support to a group. This support is less frequent and not used as a primary function but rather as just a “bonus to my awesome damage” from the dps guardian. I can pop my virtues much more frequently and I am able to share some of my passive effects with the group. I can stand in the middle of the battle field and revive people so they can get back in the fight. I can cleanse the stacks of conditions that are killing you. This is my primary focus. I have built myself around helping you and the other 3 people in the group so you can focus on why you built your toon the way you did – to tear things apart. When do you use your heals and support skills? When it suits you right? I use mine constantly, my bar is full of them and they are all on cooldown. So please.. shut up and DPS.

What exactly do you do when you find yourself in a group with four people who actually know how to dodge/mitigate damage and don’t need your support?

Then he would not be optimised for that party, but he would still be adding might as well as contributing a certain amount to dps (albeit less than the others). The thing is that you can’t have a build that’s optimised to every PuG party. One zerker is going to have a bad time in a party that’s relatively low dps. Conversely a party that is full heal support needs to be prepared for long run times. If you are pugging support heal isn’t a bad way of going if you know what you’re doing, because let’s be honest, how often do you pick up with a group that knows how to dodge / mitigate damage? About one time in four? Probably less.

Cormac.3871:

One zerker is going to have a bad time in a party that’s relatively low dps.

One bad zerker.

swiftpaw.6397:

akamon.2769:

if i am full zerker and don’t dodge.. yes, even i wouldn’t want to play with myself.
if i am a full cleric’s and don’t DPS.. well, i wouldn’t want to play with myself, either.

I like playing with myself in any gear

Sorry.. I just.. I had to.

DDDD:
o gosh. whyyyyyy.

lol. naw, it’s cool. i totally set that one up.

Heithinn.6508:

swiftpaw.6397:

Now, as for the walls of text above. If you know that as a guard you can provide excellent support even as dps spec, then why don’t you? You say that many zerker guards don’t do that. I agree, they don’t. Because they are poor players, much like many cleric’s guards. But because you acknowledge that you can indeed support your team in full zerker just as well, and in fact better than clerics because you supply dps on top, then I suggest you try it.

Woah now. I never said a dps spec could provide “excellent support”. I agreed that they too posses virtues and other skills that can provide support to a group. This support is less frequent and not used as a primary function but rather as just a “bonus to my awesome damage” from the dps guardian. I can pop my virtues much more frequently and I am able to share some of my passive effects with the group. I can stand in the middle of the battle field and revive people so they can get back in the fight. I can cleanse the stacks of conditions that are killing you. This is my primary focus. I have built myself around helping you and the other 3 people in the group so you can focus on why you built your toon the way you did – to tear things apart. When do you use your heals and support skills? When it suits you right? I use mine constantly, my bar is full of them and they are all on cooldown. So please.. shut up and DPS.

What are you talking about it is not used as a primary function? My DPS guard provides perma protection ridiculous amounts of AOE vulnerability. I can spread a quick 12 stacks of might (w/o staff.) Bring reflects/absorption with a total of a 15s down time.

The only thin I don’t bring in my DPS spec that I had in my “support” (AH=/=support) is strength in numbers which is miniscule compared to PERMANENT protection from hammer auto attack.
Here is what My DPS build can’t bring that my Support build

Strength in numbers.
MAD GROUPS HEALS!

They both bring
Condition removal (Traited VOR/purgin flames/SYS)
Stability
Reflects
Awesome boons (VOJ Insta recharge on kill, hammer AA).
Fire Fields

What my DPS spec has that my “support” spec didn’t
BLIND BLIND BLIND
Vulnerability
An extra blast finisher
An extra block
More dodging(more selfless daring!)
and oh DPS

If you are referring to DPS guards that bring nothing but meditations in dungeons then yes they are baddies and selfish.
DPS builds can go support skills and get similar support results without sacrificing much.
Support (cleric) builds can’t do much for their own DPS mainly because of everything required to actually do DPS (power/prec/crit). Also CLeric’s builds that do AH in dungeons are inherently more selfish than those 30 points being spent elsewhere.

haviz.1340:

Cormac.3871:

One zerker is going to have a bad time in a party that’s relatively low dps.

One bad zerker.

Are you saying that all those zerkers who complain about lower dps builds because they reduce the chance of success are bad players?