Guild Wars 2

Honestly haven’t played mmos in a long time, but in the ones I’ve played min maxing is pretty standard practice- gearing your toon for optimal clearing potential. However in this game a good percentage of players feel like there shouldn’t be a meta or meta builds. (aka min maxing..) It honestly confuses me… pve content has always been about maximizing your ability to farm or clear high level content as effectively as possible.
Why is it different in this game?

It’s all about being a special snowflake and not breaking immersion. From what i can gather.

BrickcityBryant.6574:

Honestly haven’t played mmos in a long time, but in the ones I’ve played min maxing is pretty standard practice- gearing your toon for optimal clearing potential. However in this game a good percentage of players feel like there shouldn’t be a meta or meta builds. (aka min maxing..) It honestly confuses me… pve content has always been about maximizing your ability to farm or clear high level content as effectively as possible.
Why is it different in this game?

Welcome to GW2, not sure why it happens. Lots of possible ideas, but it surely is a strange phenomenon. As a veteran of MMOs for going on 16 years now, this is the first game where I’ve seen such a backlash against playing well. It’s quite silly.

As stated above:

• you have the special snowflakes, wanting to be unique
• you have the baddies who don’t want to admit they just don’t know the fights and rather proclaim that zerker is an exploit and soldier gear is better
• you have the people who are just dumb and think that vit/toughness somehow supports their team, along with Altruistic healing
• Trolls who run bearbow just to get a rise out of people.
• did I mention idiots yet?
• the casuals who simply don’t understand the game completely yet feel their voice needs to be heard and become super passionate about how dumb meta is for the one day they log in a month.
• the guys who wanted to be carried and got booted and are now on a holy mission to cleanse the earth of the Meta plague.

So many reasons, all of them bad.

There are players who legitimately think zerkers stats are bad and that ranging with tank gear and staying alive is the right way of playing the game.

I am kinda thinking that we ended up with all the players who couldn’t/wouldn’t make it in other MMOs here. And since there is not a gear treadmill to work through we all just kinda get lumped in together.

Well, this is not the only game where a considerable part of the community is like this, sadly. I don’t know where this is coming from though.

It is this way because literally every single piece of content in this game can be completed with any gear prefix and rune combination. In previous MMO’s it was REQUIRED to min/max in order to complete the most difficult content. In Guild Wars 2, skill precedes gear which means the idea of min/maxing is an optional boost to complete content “faster”. Maybe if enrage timers were added people would embrace the meta.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Well, this is not the only game where a considerable part of the community is like this, sadly. I don’t know where this is coming from though.

http://www.hellokittyonline.com/

Imo, it’s the selling point that GW2 is advertised as a casual game. To where in other MMO’s you lose out tremendously if you take a break from the game GW2 is not as punishing. Sure, you may lose out on a skin or two and maybe a neat item, but there’s generally nothing game changing that a person will lose out on. Thus, if GW2 were just a casual game for me I wouldn’t care for going out of my way each time I return to the game to keep up with the consistently changing meta.

P.S. I’m a filthy min-maxer as well, and bearbows depress me in ways that words cannot describe.

The main reason, I’ve usually felt, is that people are aggressive and nasty about pushing min/max attitudes and are severely exclusionary.

It’s not necessarily rational, but nobody likes being excluded, and double nobody likes being insulted (being called bad, foolish, etc) for not playing to some Type-A personality’s version of the game.

In fairness noone likes carrying deadweights that dont even communicate. I believe most of the exclusivity and toxicity comes from bad experiences with players like that.

There were a few times where i was afraid to tell my teammates that i was zerker because they kept talking about how good tank gear are and how zerkers are always on the ground dead.

Although I hate the extreme meta ( Icebow chaining till death on anything ) I really like the meta and the science behind it all.

Ive been able to apply things I learnt from other games:
- Spacing, positioning
- chaining stuff together ( not overlapping reflects )
So Ive really enjoyed gw because of this
( this is my first mmo )

So thank you

Windsagio.1340:

The main reason, I’ve usually felt, is that people are aggressive and nasty about pushing min/max attitudes and are severely exclusionary.

It’s not necessarily rational, but nobody likes being excluded, and double nobody likes being insulted (being called bad, foolish, etc) for not playing to some Type-A personality’s version of the game.

Being anti Elitist I can totally understand. Being Anti mathematical objective facts just seems so wrong to me.

spoj.9672:

In fairness noone likes carrying deadweights that dont even communicate. I believe most of the exclusivity and toxicity comes from bad experiences with players like that.

For sure. The issue is always that you remember the worst – from either side.

Jerus.4350:

Being anti Elitist I can totally understand. Being Anti mathematical objective facts just seems so wrong to me.

Except it also comes down to priorities. Sometimes the time savings is minimal, so theres an easy element of ‘why do you care so much about something so minor?’

People hate what they don’t understand…

Windsagio.1340:

spoj.9672:

In fairness noone likes carrying deadweights that dont even communicate. I believe most of the exclusivity and toxicity comes from bad experiences with players like that.

For sure. The issue is always that you remember the worst – from either side.

Jerus.4350:

Being anti Elitist I can totally understand. Being Anti mathematical objective facts just seems so wrong to me.

Except it also comes down to priorities. Sometimes the time savings is minimal, so theres an easy element of ‘why do you care so much about something so minor?’

Even the people on these forums laugh at the people who do things like kick an Ele because he’s using D/F instead of Staff. There’s min/maxing and there’s tryharding. Kicking a less perfect but still solid build from a PUG is jsut funny. That’s a minor difference and it’s silly to get upset.

My experience though is I’ve never actually seen that type of scenario. What I’ve seen is many people get kicked from groups I’m in because they come into a “zerk” advertised party running things like Sword/shield War in PVT gear, FT Engi with Rabid, or even Necro when the advert clearly says “no necro”.

Personally I care far more about the strats used than the builds used, unfun strats make me leave groups. Just, even though I hate kicking, I don’t feel bad at all when I watch my buddies boot people who ignore LFG notes.

’Tis nothing, but human nature.

Instead of improving and climbing upwards to new heights, people often prefer to drag others down to their level.

It might also be that some of them have had unsavory experiences with pseudo-speedclear groups.

Demonizing those ‘others’ is a major part of the problem.

Why do I feel like this is going to end how most of the discussions go Wind? Jerks are jerks, and they ruin it for everyone on both sides of the table.

Jerus.4350:

Why do I feel like this is going to end how most of the discussions go Wind? Jerks are jerks, and they ruin it for everyone on both sides of the table.

Well…

“People hate what they don’t understand…”

“Instead of improving and climbing upwards to new heights, people often prefer to drag others down to their level.”

“I am kinda thinking that we ended up with all the players who couldn’t/wouldn’t make it in other MMOs here.”

“because filthy casuals dont wanna learn the tells of about 200 unique bosses and would rather survive by sacrificing damage than memorizing when to dodge
and there are oh so many filthy casuals”

It’s an inherent issue in this discussion that people are like this consistently. As long as the predominance of answers are on these lines, there’s no room for discussion or understanding.

It’s not just ‘some bad apples’ there’s an inherent adversarial attitude that is fostered and relished.

The first 3 quotes are perfectly reasonable and completely true. Only the 4th one is inappropriate and rude. Although it does have some truth to it if you ignore the insults. I didnt realise speaking truth is considered an adversarial attitude….

But then again its not surprising. The whole reason so many people get offended by stupid things is because they are insecure about their own ignorance/position.

I agree, cause I can go to general discussion and find the exact same thing going the other way

Thing is when I go in game, I find it to be much more pleasant than the forums where people seem to become a bit more of extremists in an attempt to “shout louder to win the argument”.

Jerus.4350:

I agree, cause I can go to general discussion and find the exact same thing going the other way

Thing is when I go in game, I find it to be much more pleasant than the forums where people seem to become a bit more of extremists in an attempt to “shout louder to win the argument”.

That links to my point though. It’s not ‘oh you guys are especially jerky’ but rather ‘on the forums there’s a culture of mutual hostility and hate’

Every time someone posts ‘people hate what they don’t understand’ they’re making it worse by reinforcing the hostility and condescension — while the PHIW people are saying the same thing.

~~~

So maybe the answer is ‘people hate min-maxing in gw2 because forums make us evil’?

Because there is no new content. The stuff we have currently has either been beaten to death or are too easy, and the casual gamer can complete the “hardest” PvE content in the game dungeons/fotm in a manageable amount of time. You get a mixture of 2 different types of players who don’t agree with each other’s playing styles.

This mixture of the pot spawns the loud people that you hear crying a river of tears about the existence of meta. Or the “PVP ME BRO”. etc.

We need challenging DUNGEONS and not the “challenging group content” power phrasing that the devs and their parrots like to throw around. It needs to be hard enough to where meta/skillful play will be needed to complete the content in a reasonable amount of time; provide an easy/story mode for casual gamers. F the mantra of “not wanting to separate the playerbase”. And as optimistic as some people on here are about new dungeons in the upcoming expansion, i personally doubt anything will come out of it.

Tears upon tears.

Its because on forums people dont censor themselves as much as they would in real time conversation. But the reality is most people are thinking much worse.

insanemaniac.2456:

because filthy casuals dont wanna learn the tells of about 200 unique bosses and would rather survive by sacrificing damage than memorizing when to dodge

and there are oh so many filthy casuals

(edit: seems like some may have taken this post too seriously.. Or maybe I’m detecting sarcasm when it isn’t there..)

But did you forgot, the meta is all about stacking and spamming 1 in corners?

Artemis Thuras.8795:

insanemaniac.2456:

because filthy casuals dont wanna learn the tells of about 200 unique bosses and would rather survive by sacrificing damage than memorizing when to dodge

and there are oh so many filthy casuals

(edit: seems like some may have taken this post too seriously.. Or maybe I’m detecting sarcasm when it isn’t there..)

But did you forgot, the meta is all about stacking and spamming 1 in corners?

oh, sorry, dont take it too seriously guys definitely has bitter sarcasm
but still its troo
such diverse encounters, 1000 ways to die.. or get kicked

it’s not really taking it super seriously, but it’s part of the culture, (I know, I know, my other name is Mr. Buzz Killington)

<<Inserts obligatory post about game’s concept appealing to underserved market of ‘filthy casuals’ … on purpose >>

I think this has alot to do with the kind of people this game attracts. I know alot of people think this way "Finally, a game that doesn’t tell me what stats or gear I need to play it. Doesn’t gear lock me from content, etc… " This is a VERY REAL and SIGNIFICANT population of the MMO market that wants the kind of freedom that GW2 gives. SO of course there is a backlash when the game design doesn’t force it … but then players start the self-imposition of the exact opposite thing the targeted players come to this game for.

Obtena.7952:

<<Inserts obligatory post about game’s concept appealing to underserved market of ‘filthy casuals’ … on purpose >>

Man, that underserved with casual part makes me laugh so much. Every game I’ve played has always catered to the more casual, why? because there’s more of them! makes sense. The difference in games is how well they balance their content between the different crowds though. That was one nice thing about other MMOs with the treadmill, they did make more challenging content because they knew in a few months it’d trickle down to the more casual as they gained power.

It’s because this game doesn’t have Inspect Gear/Trait’s option. It shields the lazy/ignorant people from the start. And the fact that there is no Dungeon/Fractal leaderboard, people don’t thrive to get better. Everyone is happy, does AC in random gear, win 1,55g then go back to zerg farming.

Game needs more Simin-like bosses. There.

Having a Inspect Gear option would do NOTHING to force players into min-maxing … except making those players LEAVE GW2.

Jerus.4350:

Obtena.7952:

<<Inserts obligatory post about game’s concept appealing to underserved market of ‘filthy casuals’ … on purpose >>

Man, that underserved with casual part makes me laugh so much. Every game I’ve played has always catered to the more casual, why? because there’s more of them! makes sense. The difference in games is how well they balance their content between the different crowds though. That was one nice thing about other MMOs with the treadmill, they did make more challenging content because they knew in a few months it’d trickle down to the more casual as they gained power.

I don’t think there is a correlation … there are generally more casual players in the population because of the law of averages. Just because you see more casuals in a game than any other kind of player doesn’t mean those games serve their needs to the level they desire.

I don’t think there is any denying that GW2 does a very good job towards biasing content to this group of players and is successful because of that. Again, it’s on purpose because Anet recognize an under served market and know there is a business op there.

Obtena.7952:

Jerus.4350:

Obtena.7952:

<<Inserts obligatory post about game’s concept appealing to underserved market of ‘filthy casuals’ … on purpose >>

Man, that underserved with casual part makes me laugh so much. Every game I’ve played has always catered to the more casual, why? because there’s more of them! makes sense. The difference in games is how well they balance their content between the different crowds though. That was one nice thing about other MMOs with the treadmill, they did make more challenging content because they knew in a few months it’d trickle down to the more casual as they gained power.

I don’t think there is a correlation … there are generally more casual players in the population because of the law of averages. Just because you see more casuals in a game than any other kind of player doesn’t mean those games serve their needs equally.

I don’t think there is any denying that GW2 does a very good job towards biasing content to this group of players. Again, it’s on purpose because Anet recognize an under served market and know there is a business op there.

Not really, other MMOs server their more casual base just as well (if not better aside from the gear treadmill thing), plus they add more content on top. GW2 is actually VERY slow on content compared to most other MMOs… but no sub, so /shrug.

GW2 does an excellent job of making their content accessible.

Jerus.4350:

Obtena.7952:

Jerus.4350:

Obtena.7952:

<<Inserts obligatory post about game’s concept appealing to underserved market of ‘filthy casuals’ … on purpose >>

Man, that underserved with casual part makes me laugh so much. Every game I’ve played has always catered to the more casual, why? because there’s more of them! makes sense. The difference in games is how well they balance their content between the different crowds though. That was one nice thing about other MMOs with the treadmill, they did make more challenging content because they knew in a few months it’d trickle down to the more casual as they gained power.

I don’t think there is a correlation … there are generally more casual players in the population because of the law of averages. Just because you see more casuals in a game than any other kind of player doesn’t mean those games serve their needs equally.

I don’t think there is any denying that GW2 does a very good job towards biasing content to this group of players. Again, it’s on purpose because Anet recognize an under served market and know there is a business op there.

Not really, other MMOs server their more casual base just as well (if not better aside from the gear treadmill thing), plus they add more content on top. GW2 is actually VERY slow on content compared to most other MMOs… but no sub, so /shrug.

And to a casual player, slow and steady is a GOOD speed for content to be introduced. Are you getting it yet?

Windsagio.1340:

GW2 does an excellent job of making their content accessible.

They do make things accessible but to imply that they satisfy their more casual crowd better than other MMOs outside of the lack of treadmill would be quite an exaggeration.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

GW2 does an excellent job of making their content accessible.

They do make things accessible but to imply that they satisfy their more casual crowd better than other MMOs outside of the lack of treadmill would be quite an exaggeration.

It’s not an exaggeration if you consider how well GW2 has done and see how it’s content is biased to that kind of player. These aren’t exaggerations. There are SO many things this game has done to cater to this crowd. In fact, so much so they have went too far on some things, like new player experience.

And thats why even the casual players get impatient and occasionaly go full berserk with demands? I think you have rose tinted glasses or something.

They might be trying to satisfy that player base. But that doesnt mean they are successful in doing so better than other MMO’s.

I believe it depends how far into the meta you go. People seem to be more upset with the armor rather than uaing active defence or some strategies

Obtena.7952:

Jerus.4350:

Obtena.7952:

Jerus.4350:

Obtena.7952:

<<Inserts obligatory post about game’s concept appealing to underserved market of ‘filthy casuals’ … on purpose >>

Man, that underserved with casual part makes me laugh so much. Every game I’ve played has always catered to the more casual, why? because there’s more of them! makes sense. The difference in games is how well they balance their content between the different crowds though. That was one nice thing about other MMOs with the treadmill, they did make more challenging content because they knew in a few months it’d trickle down to the more casual as they gained power.

I don’t think there is a correlation … there are generally more casual players in the population because of the law of averages. Just because you see more casuals in a game than any other kind of player doesn’t mean those games serve their needs equally.

I don’t think there is any denying that GW2 does a very good job towards biasing content to this group of players. Again, it’s on purpose because Anet recognize an under served market and know there is a business op there.

Not really, other MMOs server their more casual base just as well (if not better aside from the gear treadmill thing), plus they add more content on top. GW2 is actually VERY slow on content compared to most other MMOs… but no sub, so /shrug.

And to a casual player, slow and steady is a GOOD speed for content to be introduced. Are you getting it yet?

So you’re saying they don’t produce as much content because casual players would be overwhelmed… that’s the most laughable thing I’ve ever read on a gaming forum.

As far as NPE goes, I’ve seen the same thing happen in other MMOs, so no real new thing there. It’s not a matter of going overboard as much as COMPLETELY missing the mark… and it’s happened in each of the cases I’m thinking of. Instead of creating good well thought out tutorials they try to cut corners and end up just making a complete mess of things failing to help new players while kittening off established players.

spoj.9672:

And thats why even the casual players get impatient and occasionaly go full berserk with demands? I think you have rose tinted glasses or something.

They might be trying to satisfy that player base. But that doesnt mean they are successful in doing so better than other MMO’s.

I think their track record and sales speaks otherwise.

Jerus.4350:

Obtena.7952:

Jerus.4350:

Obtena.7952:

Jerus.4350:

Obtena.7952:

<<Inserts obligatory post about game’s concept appealing to underserved market of ‘filthy casuals’ … on purpose >>

Man, that underserved with casual part makes me laugh so much. Every game I’ve played has always catered to the more casual, why? because there’s more of them! makes sense. The difference in games is how well they balance their content between the different crowds though. That was one nice thing about other MMOs with the treadmill, they did make more challenging content because they knew in a few months it’d trickle down to the more casual as they gained power.

I don’t think there is a correlation … there are generally more casual players in the population because of the law of averages. Just because you see more casuals in a game than any other kind of player doesn’t mean those games serve their needs equally.

I don’t think there is any denying that GW2 does a very good job towards biasing content to this group of players. Again, it’s on purpose because Anet recognize an under served market and know there is a business op there.

Not really, other MMOs server their more casual base just as well (if not better aside from the gear treadmill thing), plus they add more content on top. GW2 is actually VERY slow on content compared to most other MMOs… but no sub, so /shrug.

And to a casual player, slow and steady is a GOOD speed for content to be introduced. Are you getting it yet?

So you’re saying they don’t produce as much content because casual players would be overwhelmed… that’s the most laughable thing I’ve ever read on a gaming forum.

I don’t understand why that’s such a joke to you. Perhaps if you explain yourself, we could have a discussion instead of you laughing your way out of it.

I can completely see why Anet’s approach to content is more appealing to someone who doesn’t want to play to anyone’s expectations but their own, including the frequency and type of content Anet offers with LS. If the frequency of content matches someone who logs infrequent, along with their available playtime, that actually makes a huge amount of sense.

Obtena.7952:

Jerus.4350:

Obtena.7952:

Jerus.4350:

Obtena.7952:

Jerus.4350:

Obtena.7952:

<<Inserts obligatory post about game’s concept appealing to underserved market of ‘filthy casuals’ … on purpose >>

Man, that underserved with casual part makes me laugh so much. Every game I’ve played has always catered to the more casual, why? because there’s more of them! makes sense. The difference in games is how well they balance their content between the different crowds though. That was one nice thing about other MMOs with the treadmill, they did make more challenging content because they knew in a few months it’d trickle down to the more casual as they gained power.

I don’t think there is a correlation … there are generally more casual players in the population because of the law of averages. Just because you see more casuals in a game than any other kind of player doesn’t mean those games serve their needs equally.

I don’t think there is any denying that GW2 does a very good job towards biasing content to this group of players. Again, it’s on purpose because Anet recognize an under served market and know there is a business op there.

Not really, other MMOs server their more casual base just as well (if not better aside from the gear treadmill thing), plus they add more content on top. GW2 is actually VERY slow on content compared to most other MMOs… but no sub, so /shrug.

And to a casual player, slow and steady is a GOOD speed for content to be introduced. Are you getting it yet?

So you’re saying they don’t produce as much content because casual players would be overwhelmed… that’s the most laughable thing I’ve ever read on a gaming forum.

I don’t understand why that’s such a joke to you. Perhaps if you explain yourself, we could have a discussion instead of you laughing your way out of it.

I can completely see why Anet’s approach to content is more appealing to someone who doesn’t want to play to anyone’s expectations but their own, including the frequency and type of content Anet offers with LS. If the frequency of content matches someone who logs infrequent, along with their available playtime, that actually makes a huge amount of sense.

Stop making funny statements and I’ll stop laughing.

You think I play to impress someone? LOL

What got me hooked on this game was one thing, Giganticus Lupicus. When I started I saw him, and saw a solo, and was like “ok that’s what I want to do” and I was hooked for a long time. Finally got my solo done, and after that, well, I kept looking for something else like it, hoping they’d give me another fun time like that. But, they haven’t. I play for MY enjoyment, and to me a good challenge is what I enjoy. Fractals are decent but they lack qualities that Lupi has (namely the size, fractals are notoriously bad for having the bosses being hidden by particle effects such that you can’t see their animations and have to just guess on what you should be responding to).

The reason more content doesn’t come out is not because they’re holding back to avoid alienating the casual core, but because it’s cheaper. I mean really? That statement was such horse manure.

If you think they wouldn’t have more players if they expanded and increased their output of content you’re just lying to yourself. Now, whether that would be a good business decision to increase their workload for those extra customers is a different thing, that’s a tricky question which I’m sure they have at least one person if not a whole team constantly investigating. And, judging by the fact that they haven’t released much the answer they came up with must be a No. However, even now you see ANet trying to confirm that they will put out “challenging group content”, now personally I don’t believe them for a second, I think it’s all a PR scheme to try and hold on to some customers who are ready to walk away, and hopefully they’ll at least get an expansion purchase from those people before they do.

I have no idea why you play. I never suggested why you play. I’m not talking about if they would have more players or not. I’m not talking about the reasons more content doesn’t exist. Frankly, I don’t know what you’re going on about. You’re making alot of assumptions about what I’ve said, when I’ve not said any of those things. So I’m just going to go back to why I think there are so many players in this game that don’t care about min-maxing, etc…

I don’t think it’s a stretch of the imagination to understand that the success of this game is due to appealing to underserved markets and people that want to play, be successful and do it without being told HOW it should be done are one type of those players. That’s also why I think when these players are told how to play by other players or treated badly because of it, there is hostility. This is a pretty simple logical connection being made here. I get you don’t feel this game is any ‘special’ to PHIW or casual or whatever label we want to give them, but who do you attribute GW2’s success to if it’s not some kind of player like that? Certainly not people looking for challenging team content. I don’t hear raving reviews about the PVP … Not alot of people left once you take those types out of the equation. Logical conclusion … it’s the people this game appeals to. That’s the kind of player the OP is describing in this thread. Why are you so unwilling to acknowledge this?

It’s the same reasons that dungeons are stagnant, that the NPE was made stupid, why the game is based on gold farming vs. loot drops from raids, why LS is a ‘thing’, why content isn’t balanced around BiS gear, why BiS gear doesn’t have significant stats increases, why you can buy a Legendary instead of farming it …. I could go on but to me, it’s very obvious how all this comes together to one common point: Anet makes a game that appeals to PHIW, casuals, whatevers on purpose because it makes them more money than any other gamer type they could target.

You can laugh all you want. The joke is really on everyone denying how all these game design choices aren’t targeting THEM as the core playerbase.

I have to say, fishing for props seem’s a pretty big motivator for some of the segments of players (maybe all of them, that’s part of dress-up wars as well).

Obtena.7952:

I have no idea why you play. I never suggested why you play. I’m not talking about if they would have more players or not. I’m not talking about the reasons more content doesn’t exist. Frankly, I don’t know what you’re going on about. You’re making alot of assumptions about what I’ve said, when I’ve not said any of those things. So I’m just going to go back to why I think there are so many players in this game that don’t care about min-maxing, etc…

I don’t think it’s a stretch of the imagination to understand that the success of this game is due to appealing to underserved markets and people that want to play, be successful and do it without being told HOW it should be done are one type of those players. That’s also why I think when these players are told how to play by other players or treated badly because of it, there is hostility. This is a pretty simple logical connection being made here. I get you don’t feel this game is any ‘special’ to PHIW or casual or whatever label we want to give them, but who do you attribute GW2’s success to if it’s not some kind of player like that? Certainly not people looking for challenging team content. I don’t hear raving reviews about the PVP … Not alot of people left once you take those types out of the equation. Logical conclusion … it’s the people this game appeals to. That’s the kind of player the OP is describing in this thread. Why are you so unwilling to acknowledge this?

It’s the same reasons that dungeons are stagnant, that the NPE was made stupid, why the game is based on gold farming vs. loot drops from raids, why LS is a ‘thing’, why content isn’t balanced around BiS gear, why BiS gear doesn’t have significant stats increases, why you can buy a Legendary instead of farming it …. I could go on but to me, it’s very obvious how all this comes together to one common point: Anet makes a game that appeals to PHIW, casuals, whatevers on purpose because it makes them more money than any other gamer type they could target.

You can laugh all you want. The joke is really on everyone denying how all these game design choices aren’t targeting THEM as the core playerbase.

There’s a big difference between wanting to be the target playerbase and hoping that they continue to put some content out in all areas of the game. One Lupi level encounter a year would satisfy me quite well.

And the topic of this thread as I understand it is not to bash PHIW people, but questioning why GW2 has so many opposed to playing well compared to other games. It’s one thing to not want to be part of the meta, it’s another to hate the meta with a passion, which seems to be much more common in GW2 than any game I’ve played before. Likely a leading cause is that we are all forced to play together, so those who maximize themselves are frustrated by those who don’t and visa versa for a multitude of reasons.

And again, the NPE was a failure not because doing something with that idea in mind is a bad thing, every MMO I’ve played has made some attempt, it was a failure because it was executed horribly. They tried to build a system to lead players through the content that was there, instead of building a system to help guide players into understanding the game. Basically they just put roadblocks in and said “ok learn this” without any effort put into actually teaching them, they just assumed if you forced them to be stuck with only so many things that they’d learn to use them better, which is simply not how it works.

Windsagio.1340:

I have to say, fishing for props seem’s a pretty big motivator for some of the segments of players (maybe all of them, that’s part of dress-up wars as well).

See that’s the funny thing.

Make a cute outfit.

Play something on one of the instruments

Props all around.

Do Lupi with the Risen Champ and the Champ Knight like Miku has and you’ll probably get more hate than props.

That’s what this thread is about, and it’s something pretty unique to GW2. Other games you get some haters, but most players do give props and are impressed, here, not so much.

Take a look at Sesshi’s First Person No UI Harpy Fractal 4 champ solo. The people here, props, when it was on Reddit, they got flamed because “warrior is OP, they can only do it because of that.”

I understand you and Obtena dislike the Meta game, but do you not see this type of response as pretty odd?

It’s like looking at Michael Jordan and saying ‘well he was only good at basketball because he was 6’6’’, if he was shorter he wouldn’t have been good at all" It’s a silly type of response.

Someone Linked Wethospu’s old Lupi Solo from 2 years ago. Reading those responses was awesome, other than hate on his musical choice, it was all positive comments. Some time in the last 2 years people have become pricks. (apparently ANet even linked his video according to one of the comments, I wasn’t around back then).

It’s honestly pretty surreal to me. The only other game type I’ve played where people complained about this was table top RPGs. In games like Dungeons & Dragons or Pathfinder, there’s this huge divide between min-maxers and people who only want to roleplay. It’s somewhat understandable there, I suppose. But for video games, I was surprised to see GW2 have nearly the same sorts of complaints (though unlike table top roleplaying games, it’s not as if people are complaining to instead roleplay rather than optimize). GW2 is truly unique in this regard. I don’t see people complain about min-maxing in VIDEO games, except in GW2.

I’m tempted to say that the type of people who would like D&D back in the day are the sort who play GW2. And I really do mean the whole group of players that enjoy D&D, which is a very diverse group of players who range from roleplay-immersion loving to number-crunching min-maxer sorts.

Going off on a bit of a tangent, GW2 really does appeal to me in many of the ways D&D did. Whenever I miss my days of leading D&D groups, I’ll boot up GW2 and while the experience is different, there’s something about it that resonates with me in a similar manner. Maybe it’s the way that it’s got this huge capacity for creativity in something that’s still ultimately pretty casual.