Healers vs. Damage Dealers

Healers vs. Damage Dealers

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Posted by: Arkanakaz.7915

Arkanakaz.7915

If you are thinking of what types of build are useful in a group, the first, and pretty much only thought seems to be how much damage can they deal, or perhaps how much damage can they contribute to the party through a combination of their damage, and the damage they help others deal through traits such as Phalanx Strength.

Either way the offensive stats have dominated. To me it seems the reason for this is that if you invest in damage stats everyone in the group benefits from the targets going down faster, but if you invest in defensive stats, they only stop you from going down faster. I think this is at the heart of it and because of that it would be hard to change things so that vitality and toughness enter the mata.

Healing power though has the potential for much more use in fractals and raids as it can benefit not just the person with the stat but as with damage; everyone in the group.

I’m more familiar with fractals but it seems at the moment only the Ranger as a Druid does well with healing power. This is because of Grace of the Land not only heals but adds damage to the group. I think for healing builds to compete for entry into competitive groups in the place of a DPS dealer, then they will all need a way of contributing damage at the same time as healing, in much the same way as Grace of the Land has allowed the Druid to.

I see alacrity has been added to the Revenant’s tablet after investing in the Salvation trait line. This seems like the direction I was thinking of, but at the moment it is only one skill and that makes it a little narrow compared to Grace of the Land.

Guardians could add some damage as they heal, as could Elementalists, although part of their problem is as they heal they often leave their preferred attunement to enter water, and then can’t move back into it and therefore suffer a DPS drop.

I would like to see other professions enter competitive groups with healing power, and I think if they could add damage support as they healed as well as maybe some more offensive healing power stat combinations such as healing power/precision/condition damage ect. then this could happen, although I know introducing new stat combinations is complicated.

What do you lot think?

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Posted by: UnbentMars.9126

UnbentMars.9126

All I want is for my healing elementalist to be desireable. Ele’s can do more heals/second than any other class, it’s just not burst and no GotL so no one wants it. I suspect Guardian’s next elite spec will be a healer-oriented specialization (unless they give Minstrel or Bard specs to mesmer’s)

Rev, Ele, Burnzerker
“Beware he who would deny you access to information,
for in his heart he dreams himself your master.”

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Posted by: cranos.5913

cranos.5913

AI suspect Guardian’s next elite spec will be a healer-oriented specialization

Well that’d be a waste since they can already heal. =/

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Posted by: Lalainnia.3598

Lalainnia.3598

Imo anyway healers are perfectly fine I really think it’s just due to the old dungeon meta mentality where ppl could and quite often did end up in groups with multiple ppl in clerics/knights gear and selfish utility.

One healer in a fractal run can make things extremely smooth and even faster not that it’s actually needed. On the note of damage that’s what the other gear sets are for like zealot etc just simply don’t expect to heal as much as a magi geared healer.

As for special buffs provided that’s honestly class based not role based and each profession provides different things druids have spirits and gotl, tempests have auras and a passive separate regen for others, revs have amazing boon uptime on several important boons and a boon duration increase. I’m personally not sure what guardians bring in regards to something amazing possibly high group aegis uptime but can’t really comment on guard in a healer role haven’t used it outside of wvw.

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Posted by: Fluffy.1932

Fluffy.1932

All I want is for my healing elementalist to be desireable.

I love bringing a heal ele in groups. I think it is superior to druid in fractals because its heals have a wider range for when people spread out due to social awkwardness, and nothing in fractals has an enrage timer. We also frequently bring a heal ele to low dps, high movement raids like Matthias and VG. It really smooths out those kills.

However I think most PUGs are not receptive to this. It does lower damage since you are lacking GotL. I rarely do PUGs anymore though, so I’m not really sure.

Fluffy Fuz
The Edge of Oblivion [EDGE]

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Posted by: Talindra.4958

Talindra.4958

I was healer tempest in wing 1 when raids first came out.. then I went druid bcos no one else do it. Now im sticking with druid healing lol. Though my ele is geared with asc magi asc zealot, zerk and asc condi gears. ^.^

Champion Magus & Phantom, Demon’s Demise, The Archdesigner.
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Posted by: maxwelgm.4315

maxwelgm.4315

Druid’s healing is actually a secondary role. Most people playing Druid do not realize/know this, but keeping grace of the land up is the single reason you’re playing a Druid to begin with. Healing is a mere bonus and the damage from GotL great surpasses that small bonus (basically all you really do is keep high stacks of regeneration up and burst Celestial whenever it’s up, but because of GotL first, and only after for heals).

This is also true of other classes and the true reason why they are not taken (as hinted by OP). Elementalist with healing power on water attunement is actually the king of heals and any team can stay up if they got an ele watching their backs. But the extra damage from druid keeping GotL up is just that much more to pass on.

Actually, you could say that outside of raids (where the mandatory damage ticks more or like require some kind of regen), healing power is just as out of place as vitality and toughness. It does nothing more than allow your team to take more hits before dying, but if they are failing mechanics and taking so much damage (specially true in fractals) that means they are probably also getting cc’d and losing overall DPS anyway.

The real issue is deeper than individual classes but in the very way combat works; it is heavily action oriented so you never have to wait for your turn or count on some evasion stat to not take damage. You either press that evade/block/invulnerability button or you don’t, and the game heavily decentivizes you to ever actually take a hit (again, except for raids and couple other areas, with green circles and all that). This result in a clear and easy message to all players: defense is a matter of only skill and damage is a matter of both skill and equipment, so you should only equip yourself for offense, obviously.

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Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

AI suspect Guardian’s next elite spec will be a healer-oriented specialization

Well that’d be a waste since they can already heal. =/

See you say that, but mesmers got another support spec with chrono. So its not out of the question that guard will get a heal spec.

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Posted by: CrustyBot.3564

CrustyBot.3564

In terms of overall healing, a Ventari Rev and a Healing Tempest are on par or better than a Druid. Specifically for healing. What makes the Druid so highly regarded is the suite of offensive buffs it offers in addition to its healing. Grace of the Land, Spotter, Spirits. In endgame instanced content, the game puts a high reliance on sustain through active defenses. Blocking, dodging, movement, etc to avoid damage altogether. In such cases, it’s more beneficial for the group to do more damage than to have better healing if the Druid(s) are “good enough”.

(edited by CrustyBot.3564)

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Posted by: cranos.5913

cranos.5913

AI suspect Guardian’s next elite spec will be a healer-oriented specialization

Well that’d be a waste since they can already heal. =/

See you say that, but mesmers got another support spec with chrono. So its not out of the question that guard will get a heal spec.

It’s not out of the question at all. What I’m saying is that it’d be a waste. Just ask all the healing revs and magi eles how much they get taken in meta groups.

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Posted by: Arkanakaz.7915

Arkanakaz.7915

I guess what I was getting at was the main thing that stops healing classes from being viable in dungeons/fractals, is that they need to be adding both healing and supporting group DPS for them to be contributing enough to take the place of a DPS build.

Druid is the only healing build that contributes to group DPS and also heals (with Grace of the Land), and although other healing builds are useful in the ways people have mentioned, the problem is that if the group isn’t taking a lot of damage and you have one of those healing builds, then the contribution of your build isn’t going to be that high.

The real issue is deeper than individual classes but in the very way combat works; it is heavily action oriented so you never have to wait for your turn or count on some evasion stat to not take damage. You either press that evade/block/invulnerability button or you don’t, and the game heavily decentivizes you to ever actually take a hit (again, except for raids and couple other areas, with green circles and all that). This result in a clear and easy message to all players: defense is a matter of only skill and damage is a matter of both skill and equipment, so you should only equip yourself for offense, obviously.

This is a good point and I was thinking of adding this point to my OP and you summed it up well in the last sentence. Perhaps future fights could change from a small number of big impact attacks that are delivered by one big boss; that have to be avoided. To a larger number of less damaging attacks delivered by a larger number of small foes, who could be supporting the main boss. This way you would find it very hard to avoid all attacks, as you wouldn’t have a block/evade for every attack, and so would take some of these smaller hits on the chin. This is where the healer would find a role, as they could get peoples health back up after they take that damage.

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Posted by: Rayrai.9150

Rayrai.9150

As someone new to the game but an MMO veteran, i find it very disheartening that there is so little diversity in the meta and the concensus seems to be “which proffs can we take that yeald the maximum dps and boons while having a quasi tank and heal set up that sacrifice as little dps as possible while being able to do the job”

I dunno maybe as GW2 doesn’t follow the holy trinity of Tank, healer, dps like other games then i am expecting too much, but as patches seem to be buffing healing specs/spells i think it would be great if they could have various mechanics that can 1 shot people that must be avoided or blocked in the traditional sense while having more damage that can not be avoided to give people who like to heal or tank things more choice than simply rolling with a meta dps build regardless of your role in a raid.

as i am sure you all have played far longer than me, do you like the meta of stacking dps classes and as many boons/uptime as possible?

genuinely i would like to see the impact of boons reduced significantly and more player skill needed in terms of class and boss mechanics and maybe more need for a dedicated tank or healer so that there is way more diversity in the meta but feel free to disagree.

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Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

I agree that the meta is boring. But you have to remember that in GW2 its self imposed meta. Groups have cleared raid bosses with 10 naked guardians (they weren’t wearing any armor, which severely reduced their health, defense, and damage. I can’t remember if they had accessories or not), groups have cleared the raid bosses with 10 healing tempests (while amazing support, it does have one of the lower DPS), and at least 2 people have soloed the first raid boss on W4, along with a chrono that has been working on soloing VG. Add onto that all of the low man clears where they have 4-5 people.

The meta is 100% player imposed, and frankly its annoying and disheartening. Too many players are inflexible, and don’t care if you pull more DPS on your power reaper than you would on your condi ranger because you know reaper better, they don’t see condi ranger and don’t want you.

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

I agree that the meta is boring. But you have to remember that in GW2 its self imposed meta.

The meta is 100% player imposed, and frankly its annoying and disheartening. Too many players are inflexible, and don’t care <snipped> .

For every person that follows the “meta” there seems to be 2-3 that don’t and complain.

What i find wholly ironic, is that instead of forming their own groups that don’t follow the established meta they come here and complain.

For something that is a “self-imposed” community problem, it seems that the real issue is a lack of desire to form an anti-meta/freeform raiding community by those who feel isolated and shafted.

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Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

I don’t raid, so me forming my own group wouldn’t do anything. I complain about it because its useless. The people enforcing the meta are the ones who aren’t good enough mechanically to raid. They aren’t good enough to adapt to anything, if it wasn’t in the meta battle rotation they can’t comprehend how it works. These people are a major source of toxicity, and also push away potential raiders who might want to try.

So even though it doesn’t affect me personally, I still hate it because its the cause of toxicity.

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

Druid is the only healing build that contributes to group DPS and also heals (with Grace of the Land), […]

I just wanted to point out that this is not correct. Minstrel’s Chronomancer is very much a healer, and it still maintains permanent quickness and other boons on the team.

[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!

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Posted by: nagr.1593

nagr.1593

If yiu think every class would push for offense stats, then u should see my chrono with max clones attacking the xera clone. I’d just leave them to whittle it down but it takes on the order of minutes I think, so its kinda embarrassing. Whereas if dps class wanted to, they could burst it down in a fraction of an instant. So that’s ur comparison yah

Chrono dps (by itself) sucks rotten eggs. I dont even wanna know its relation to druid dps.. kinda scared to ask rly. But yeah even if some pro could prove chrono dps is baseline, I wouldn’t read too much to that. Cant even trust most pug chronos to upkeep their boons.. imagine adding a complex rotation like shatter for vuln, shatter for dmg (or somethin like that, dunno). Wuld be a mess imo

All I wanna knows tho is y so many ‘pug’ chrono(tanks) have low low toughness. Like weeks ago I was with a tank for vg and he’s like, yo im tankin can u lower ur toughness mine is 1.2k. I was (understandably ) like wtf, and I think he continued to boast abt his toughness after I asked him y it was so low. I dunno y these ‘pros’ should brag abt their low toughness in pugs. I dunno but they actually makin it harder for others by refusing to stack toughness.

I mean look at deimos tbh. If only more boss could be like this. Cos it encourage ppl to stack toughness and stats like heal power. And if ur chrono ain’t minstrel, u gonna fo sho need a healer up top to babysit u. So dat ain’t cool

Arun Kar

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Posted by: Ocosh.5843

Ocosh.5843

It’s fair to want to see more variety, but this is not a situation unique to GW2. In any raid encounter where the objective is to burn the enemy’s HP before it burns yours, you are dealing with two levers: outgoing and incoming damage. As any veteran MMO raider can tell you, when trying to overcome an encounter, the answer is always, always more dps. The faster the bad guy dies, the fewer times you will encounter mechanics, the more efficiently you will handle changes, the greater the room for error, the less strain on the defensive raid members — the easier everything is.

This is due in part to the fact that the boss’ damage is fixed. The tank/healers generally have to account for X damage in any given window; once they are statistically able to do this, all they can ask is that the rest of the group reduce the number of windows.

As others pointed out above, a Druid’s healing is largely incidental. The issue is that Anet bundled a zillion useful buffs onto one class, and (originally) didn’t expand this or other effects (e.g., Phalanx Strength) to the full raid, so you needed one of these per party. Other games had buffbots, but you could run one of them in a group of 25 and it worked (the downside there being that you only needed one person in a guild to have that spec — and hope s/he was a regular).

In order to encourage a mentality of “bring the player, not the class,” others (Blizz) spread buffs/debuffs around, so that instead of needing ‘such-and-such spec’ you just needed to check off that someone was bringing that spec’s formerly-unique buff. This did mean some homogenization of classes, and it can be tricky, but Anet could probably achieve something workable by distributing utility a little better. To be fair, though, it cannot be overstated how forgiving GW2’s raiding is, and how you can really complete it with any arrangement.

In the end, you can’t have it both ways. If they make an encounter that absolutely needs a dedicated healer, then they are restricting raid composition in a way they seemed to be opposed to doing. Unless and until they do that, then it’s fair for people to expect everyone to be focused principally on outgoing damage. I say again that part of the fault lies with the fact that GW2 had no framework for raiding before HoT, and no ramp up to it, and thus very few people seem to find themselves in raiding guilds, where you can run whatever everyone agrees to run. The fact that so many people appear to be relying on pugging for top-level, end-game content speaks to a highly disorganized scene.

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

I don’t raid, so me forming my own group wouldn’t do anything. I complain about it because its useless. The people enforcing the meta are the ones who aren’t good enough mechanically to raid. They aren’t good enough to adapt to anything, if it wasn’t in the meta battle rotation they can’t comprehend how it works. These people are a major source of toxicity, and also push away potential raiders who might want to try.

So even though it doesn’t affect me personally, I still hate it because its the cause of toxicity.

That’s an extremely shallow and biased view of the community you don’t have any interaction with because you don’t raid. There’s also something extremely wrong when someone who doesn’t raid, but refuses to adapt points fingers at the community for not adapting. Additionally how would you know something is toxic if you don’t interact with it, unless its a preconceived notion because you’ve never given it a fair chance ?

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Posted by: zoomborg.9462

zoomborg.9462

When i run with pugs certain things are expected of me, build, rotations, tactics etc.
When i run with guild we do w/e the kitten we wanna do even if its not “meta”.
It is as simple as that and there is no reason to complain, just figure out what works for you and go with it.

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Posted by: SlippyCheeze.5483

SlippyCheeze.5483

As someone new to the game but an MMO veteran, i find it very disheartening that there is so little diversity in the meta and the concensus seems to be “which proffs can we take that yeald the maximum dps and boons while having a quasi tank and heal set up that sacrifice as little dps as possible while being able to do the job”

Are you sure that you don’t remember the pressure to play whatever the flavor of the month is in other MMOs? WoW and “this week holy, next week disc” for priests, the big frost / unholy / frost cycle for DKs, monks and their up and down path through power levels, etc?

It’s really just players being, as they often are, players. Like the people who insist that it’s impossible to raid without “best in slot” gear, ignoring that week one clears are done by groups who literally cannot have that stuff, etc.

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Posted by: reikken.4961

reikken.4961

A dedicated support ele is the best thing at keeping people alive. but they don’t provide any unique damage buffs. They can give a lot of might and a bit of fury, but the might/fury cap is easily reached by other classes, so they have no offensive buffing value in a min/maxed party. Therefore no one wants them.

and they can do some decent healing while doing solid damage by going air/water. And I’ve done a few raid runs with my guild a few times with running a pair of air/water eles. It was a pretty long time ago now, but it worked nicely. But why take fresh air auramancer when you can run damage-buffing druids? so, in general, no one does it. Druid gets you better party dps.

What arenanet should do is just give every class something unique. That’s the easiest way. My other tied for all time favorite MMO did this pretty well (Ragnarok Online), so every class was useful and used despite balance being otherwise horrible.

(edited by reikken.4961)

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Posted by: nagr.1593

nagr.1593

That’s an extremely shallow and biased view of the community…

Well he’s not wrong, the majority of pug community for raids are toxic, and unnecessarily so. Why, just in past week I’ve been insta kicked probably three times, for nothing I done wrong. Apparently raid pugs like to raid with their same old static groups day after day, week after week without any form of extemporaneous social contact or influence at all. So apparently they have a thing for beating dead horses over the head. Go figure.

If they insta-kick u once, ur not supposed to ever raid with them again. Thats an unspoken rule of pugging too.

This game being centric around guild wars too, well u get blacklisted by one random dude and u can expect a whole swarm of unsympathetic guildies that u never even heard of to start blacklisting u. So you better watch your back, you never know the identities of this would-be Samaritans. They could be your commander that you cleared many runs with, they could be someone you know and someone who u could trust to lead u. They could be the person u least suspect and because u do, they will backstab u at any moment for this slight. So be prepared.

Months ago one guy was kind enough to insta kick me then insta block me. This guy was such a nice & friendly guy and he commands frequently with his static groups so that u can expect to be kicked before u even see his name in the group. Guess what this guy has strong connections too, and his isn’t afraid to use it. Release the kraken, and months hence these unsung heroes (his guildies) will silently stab u in the back without a moment’s hesitation. I could even procure the proofs if needed. Though how insta kicking (and having friends they’ve raided with insta kick u) doesn’t become harassment after a dozen or so times, ill never know. To fair I think this game is rigged in favor of them. The fact that they are able to employ the butterfly effect with such pinpoint accuracy, and have it never backfire on them, is something truly remarkable I think. So kudos to them and any other unsung heroes ill be introduced to

So yeah months down the lane, it’s nice to see the venomous nature of the pug community, nice to see their fangs exposed. Never forgive, never forget.. but that’s alright, I know the thought process behind that. Half the time I could mirror them even, given the chance. So say one thing or state one opinion, shame on u. What were you even thinking, keyboard warrior you?

I mean it’s like deja vu all over again, and past the upteenth time, calling it deja vu seems like deja vu in and of itself.

‘Isnt nagr that guy who…’ Not even a seconds reprieve, not a moment to breathe. Kick you when your down and before u can defend urself, that’s how the people’s court works after all.

Try again to appeal to the commander (not the guy who kicked u, he was simply a privileged plebian) and you shockingly get the same treatment, more or less. A response of something caustic and venomous by nature, followed swiftly by an insta block to shield them from your rebuttal and witty response. Welp turns out they’re wearing insulated ear protection, not even an explosion going off a hairs breadth away from them would but make them jump. So all’s well on their world, simply be grateful they shared their long mind with you.

If only a hand outstretched but then in short order rescinded, perhaps that level of toxicity could be imbibed and swallowed down. At the least, a slap on the wrist would be preferential to a recklessly open-handed one. But see in cases as such here, I’m not getting much to go on. A man teetering on the brink on the edge, gets the boot instead of an outstretched hand. I mean a boot quite literally here, polished and clean as you’d shine it

And the people that pounce on u three years later, it’s simply because the stick is longer and sturdier from their vantage where they’re perched. If you could but one up the connections and networks they have in reserve, then you’d have won at least a single battle to date. But fact of matter is, the list of public numero enemies keeps growing, while your cache of friends and trustworthy players with whom you have a mutual link, remains as non-existent as ever. Even from the day zero, as they say

But I suppose, that’s the lesson to be had here

(And yes, undoubtedly pug community is toxic to outsiders. Even well known acquaintances and ‘guildies’ can become ur enemies in the snap of a finger, but never works the other way around. But it’s a one way street, and it leads nowhere remotely near satisfactory.)

Arun Kar

(edited by nagr.1593)

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Posted by: CptAurellian.9537

CptAurellian.9537

As any veteran MMO raider can tell you, when trying to overcome an encounter, the answer is always, always more dps. The faster the bad guy dies, the fewer times you will encounter mechanics, the more efficiently you will handle changes, the greater the room for error, the less strain on the defensive raid members — the easier everything is.

Nope. Usually, yes, but not always. Sometimes, too much damage interferes with timer-/percentage-based mechanics and creates “new” mechanics you really, really don’t want to play :P

Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.

There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley

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Posted by: SlippyCheeze.5483

SlippyCheeze.5483

As any veteran MMO raider can tell you, when trying to overcome an encounter, the answer is always, always more dps. The faster the bad guy dies, the fewer times you will encounter mechanics, the more efficiently you will handle changes, the greater the room for error, the less strain on the defensive raid members — the easier everything is.

Nope. Usually, yes, but not always. Sometimes, too much damage interferes with timer-/percentage-based mechanics and creates “new” mechanics you really, really don’t want to play :P

Also, at least over in WoW-land there was an acknowledgement that there was a balance between “more DPS” and “better handling of mechanics or avoidable damage” that was worth understanding.

I mean, standing in the fire and continuing to DPS while the healers keep you up … improves DPS, but it may not be the most optimal path to victory.

Yes, the less times you have to do a mechanics cycle the less chances to screw up, but that’s not always the right choice overall. (Not to mention … this is basically “we don’t need to learn the fight, we just need to outgear it”.)

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Posted by: Ocosh.5843

Ocosh.5843

I realize that this is the web and people will intentionally misinterpret anything just to be argumentative, but I did not want to write four paragraphs of explanation to clarify at what conceptual level the declaration was to stand, specifying considerations of case and context, since all the words in the world will not stop nerdiness. Obviously you obey the mechanics of the fight. I raided back when those things mattered and I raided until nearly every mechanic could be ignored if you burned fast enough. You know what I meant and it’s accurate. You’re up against a timer; for any standard encounter, DPS carries.

This is why unless and until they make more complex, non-standard encounters, optimal groups will be based around maximizing dps.

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Posted by: thrag.9740

thrag.9740

I think OP has spent too much time reading meta battle stuff, and too little time in real raid groups.

You frequently see things like minstrel chronos, minstrel revs, magi eles, condi necros, hammer guardians, and magi druids. These off meta choices are brought not for damage but for safety net, and they are frequently used throughout this community.

It would be good if other classes could heal while buffing like druid, but remember that for extremely heal heavy fights like matthias you frequently see things like healer ele/rev because druid brings those buffs at the expense of raw healing power.

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Posted by: nagr.1593

nagr.1593

Either way the offensive stats have dominated. To me it seems the reason for this is that if you invest in damage stats everyone in the group benefits from the targets going down faster, but if you invest in defensive stats, they only stop you from going down faster. I think this is at the heart of it and because of that it would be hard to change things so that vitality and toughness enter the mata.

I think someone? also beat me to the punch, so not gonna claim it were my own insight as it’s not, but yeah kinda seems wrong to me. I mean I follow ur thought process but I think u missing the big picture here. And the picture is, actually centric around the fact that u have a dedicated healer per each subsquad and (prob most important) that there a catch-all enrage mechanic for 98% of raid encounters.

I say 98% here purely cos escort doesn’t have a clearly publicized enrage timer per se. But, if you wait around long enough to cap points on the ground, you will see some weird kitten happen eventually.. unintentional or not there seem to be a hidden enrage mechanic. One group recently I saw this strange bug where wargs kept spawning instantaneously one after another near the end, this was basically a DPS check that we thankfully surmounted. Prob more common is just mobs keep spawning and overwhelm u cos u lack the DPS to clear them. Either way it’s basically an implicit ‘failure’ timer attached to this particular encounter as well.

Also what I also mention that each 5man grp should have healer, if conforming to meta I guess. Unless ur healer is clueless or has trash gear, u can neglect and ignore most damage from encounters (ones that don’t one shot u anyway). So there no reason to run bunker or selfish builds rly. Beside which, ele or thief for instance. They bring nothing rly to the group in terms of support other than their dps. So if u wanna play one but u wanna go full knights and stack defensive stats, u contributing absolutely nothing to the grp. So that aint good

I been noticing in pugs I recently start to run arcdps (less than half a week tbh) but alrdy I seeing similar trends goin on. Like, fact that for sab both ur ps will always outdps eles who are doin cannons. So no, gauging damage in cases as this is not always cut and dry as it might seem. So do ur homework, understand mechanics and realise why a dps class (such as ele) would come across as having consistently less overall dps then both your PS even.

That caveat aside, those similar trends I mentioned, kinda hard to miss. Condi ranger or thief always seems to be top dps. Druid and chrono almost always lowest. Chrono usually slightly higher overall dps than druid, but both negligible. To put in perspective, I would notice even lowest dps PS will be always at least 2x higher DPS than either chrono. So yeah.. now u understand why stacking toughness is not such a big concern/worry with such classes.

Arun Kar

(edited by nagr.1593)

Healers vs. Damage Dealers

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Posted by: JTGuevara.9018

JTGuevara.9018

Thanks to HoT, healers have gotten more powerful. However, healers won’t win until another factor is involved: the tank. A tank controls and draws aggro so the healers can do their job.

Gw2 just doesn’t have tanks or a reliable way to control aggro. Yeah, you can stack toughness for survivability, but it’s not enough. A tank needs to draw the mobs so the damage dealers can wail and the healers can heal.

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Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

I don’t raid, so me forming my own group wouldn’t do anything. I complain about it because its useless. The people enforcing the meta are the ones who aren’t good enough mechanically to raid. They aren’t good enough to adapt to anything, if it wasn’t in the meta battle rotation they can’t comprehend how it works. These people are a major source of toxicity, and also push away potential raiders who might want to try.

So even though it doesn’t affect me personally, I still hate it because its the cause of toxicity.

That’s an extremely shallow and biased view of the community you don’t have any interaction with because you don’t raid. There’s also something extremely wrong when someone who doesn’t raid, but refuses to adapt points fingers at the community for not adapting. Additionally how would you know something is toxic if you don’t interact with it, unless its a preconceived notion because you’ve never given it a fair chance ?

I don’t raid because of the toxic behavior I encountered when I tried to get into it.

And nice of you to project onto me, and accuse me of not adapting.

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

I don’t raid because of the toxic behavior I encountered when I tried to get into it.

And nice of you to project onto me, and accuse me of not adapting.

Irony was pointed out and taken offense to. Let me offer clarity of purpose.

You want to raid, or desired too previously.

You claim to have met toxicity (great guy i know him)….

Instead of becoming part of a positive change and starting a group with your own ideals, you’d rather blame toxicity.

If everyone takes that route, no one wins. So why not be a positive force instead of having a defeatist approach ¯\(?)/¯ ?

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Posted by: nagr.1593

nagr.1593

obv because those clique of people with toxic attitudes exist in this game.

Hard to be a ‘positive’ force when someone (or a group of someone’s) metaphorically slap you in the face. Is it your idea to hug and embrace them in response?

They say toxicity is hard to remove, once you are infected with the motivation or residuum of it. Months can pass and those same toxic clique of people can still hold a grudge/hate you without their resolve flagging the least bit. The people who perma block someone for a slight months and years ago and never let go, those are the toxic clique of people that spread their toxicity to the rest of community.

And you are wrong, there is always some person that wins. When the stick is longer on the side u are holding it, there is always a victor. So while you (focal target of their hostility / toxicity) don’t win, they will persist and go on with a smile on their face and a spring in their step.

I don’t see any reason to ‘fight fire with fire’ either. Its a hard habit to shake, but I agree that no one wins if people fall to it. So sometimes the only solution, when things become a bit much to handle, is to give up and stop trying (stop raiding in this case). So I understand where this guy I.e. OriOri, is coming from.

( calling him out, or his actions out as being defeatist, is not helping matters either )

Arun Kar

(edited by nagr.1593)

Healers vs. Damage Dealers

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Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

obv because those clique of people with toxic attitudes exist in this game.

Hard to be a ‘positive’ force when someone (or a group of someone’s) metaphorically slap you in the face. Is it your idea to hug and embrace them in response?

….And why are you so insistant on joining other peoples groups that you clearly don’t mix well with.

It’s not about being a follower, anyone can go with the status-quo. However, if you have an issue with it, it’s nut-up or shut-up time. Either do something productive to change the problem (in this case its forming your own group, with your own rules) or not adapting and quitting.

You may not like how it’s phrased but that’s exactly what’s going on. People get their feelings in a bunch and whine that players P,Q&R wont let them play instead of forming their own group like players P,Q&R did before them.

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

AI suspect Guardian’s next elite spec will be a healer-oriented specialization

Well that’d be a waste since they can already heal. =/

See you say that, but mesmers got another support spec with chrono. So its not out of the question that guard will get a heal spec.

and im all in for mace healer guardian with tomes ^^

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Posted by: nagr.1593

nagr.1593

Because the group is about more then one person who’s either commander or tattles to the commander to get u insta kicked out. He only accounts for 1/10 ppl in that group but he’s already poisoning other peoples minds, coloring their opinions and spreading his toxicity to others.

I can make my own groups you’re right. Doesn’t mean that anyone will join. Or maybe the wrong people will, and I won’t know their preconceptions or attitudes simply by looking at their names. Simply put I can’t trust them anymore than I can a pug who is led by someone who hates/dislikes me without having ever met or gotten to know me and any hardships I’ve underwent. What if one person who joins my group unbeknownst to me will one day in the future turn and insta-kick me solely because a little voice whispered in their ear? This is the reality of the situation.

Or, perhaps it’s a group alrdy forming that I join, upon looking at names of ppl in group I see two of them have been previous offenders to me couple weeks or even months ago and have insta kicked me without slightest provocation or hesitation. These people are also blocking me, this is clear to see bc they go offline when you try to whisper them to merely confirm it.

So you do the only sensible thing you can do, motivated by one parts vengeance and one parts rekindled fear of being insta-kicked by same person(s) again: you tag up instantly and kick both of them. Then things get messy real quick. A third person bristles and asks why you kicked his friends. Employing the maxim ‘friend of my enemy must be my enemy’ you likewise give him the boot as well, simply for being friends with such unsympathetic and toxic individuals. On top of that, your 6man formative group has now been reduced to a 3man group that includes yourself. One of them berates you loudly for a hostile takeover of a pug group that no one was leading, then silently leaves. Upon whispering him and trying to reason with him how you’re not the bad guy here and they’ve done worse things to u, he responds that maybe he should block you now too and proceeds to do just that. So now you’ve potentially been blacklisted by two more new ppl, and on top of that those two individuals who were blocking you but have forgotten what they’re blocking you over by now, now hate you with renewed passion for this recent slight.

So yeah, this is why.. and based on true events, in case u are wondering

Arun Kar

(edited by nagr.1593)

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

Yeah, nagr. And how often do those scenarios take place?

It’s all about “could” and “can”. People constantly pugging don’t have the problems you mentioned above.
If you behave correctly, that means you serve to the common sense, you don’t act kittened, you are silent, listen to the commander and execute mechanics properly. Bring all attributes of a team player and the chance of getting booted, kicked or blocked is 0.

Nobody likes people who are smart- kitten s and if you attract negative attention wether it is in the forums or ingame, you have to ask yourself if you personally have done anything wrong and not anyone else.
All of my mates including me that are raiding with pugs have never encountered toxicity personally over the last weeks. We are in a LI range from 40 to 300+.

But it’s the same people getting kicked some time or over and over again: macro users for LI with 0 clue at all, flamers, smart- kitten s that get tilted after one wipe or people on blocklists.
And while the last point could be related to you: That’s always the own mistake. You are on a raid blocklist for a reason and never not guilty! Even if you are on a blocklist of a blocklist of a blocklist from a random player. My advice here is strong but simple: Take the next group and get over it because there will be no one listening to this specific psychological drama and try to help you getting out of the depression you may experience.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

(edited by Vinceman.4572)

Healers vs. Damage Dealers

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Posted by: nagr.1593

nagr.1593

If you behave correctly, that means you serve to the common sense, you don’t act kittened, you are silent, listen to the commander and execute mechanics properly. Bring all attributes of a team player and the chance of getting booted, kicked or blocked is 0.

I disagree, and this is my point of contention. Today i was insta-kicked from 3 separate and unrelated CM groups for wing 4, without any red flag being raised from my perspective. I mean that, I did not even know/expect to be kicked as soon as I entered an instance, nor did I get any prior warning this was about to happen. On two of these cases, commander themself did not have any problem with me, but one or two people (underlings) in his squad did. He would take their word over mine, simply believing some misplaced rumor? As its comm’s ultimate decision tho, i don’t get why they deflect or redirect blame at others in squad. They are the ones kicking you, if they choose to.

Nobody likes people who are smart- kitten s and if you attract negative attention wether it is in the forums or ingame, you have to ask yourself if you personally have done anything wrong and not anyone else.

The thing is they are basing something I wrote months ago and using that as grounds to insta kick me, when i already complete some CM for wing 4. It’s completely unfair and reflects their bitter& toxic attitudes, I think they know it too. One of them linked a post i wrote months ago to cmd apparently, and he kicked me over that. If I need to hunt down and delete all my posts from months ago, then its sad if that’s what it takes for community to stop harassing and picking on me. The ‘months’ ago when I had just got HoT myself. So stop, please just stop. This is just like cyber bullying to hold something as insubstantial as words over my head.

But it’s the same people getting kicked some time or over and over again: macro users for LI with 0 clue at all, flamers, smart- kitten s that get tilted after one wipe or people on blocklists.
And while the last point could be related to you: That’s always the own mistake. You are on a raid blocklist for a reason and never not guilty! Even if you are on a blocklist of a blocklist of a blocklist from a random player. My advice here is strong but simple: Take the next group and get over it because there will be no one listening to this specific psychological drama and try to help you getting out of the depression you may experience.

I will confess, I am an overly sensitive and emotional person. when i need to vent, sometimes i do but only just to dig myself out of hole i’m in and try and reason out why people are hating on me consistently. Once I figure it out, i ‘git gud’ as they say and yes I stop venting.

But, the solution is not to blacklist someone for life just because you don’ t like the fact that they vented once on some blue moon. That teaches that person nothing and if old problems keep resurfacing as they do now, that person will regress back to venting days as he did months past.

I told it before, i don’t need to prove anything to anyone. But in case anyone wants to know, here’s my actual LI (so i can’t lie about it, since I am not starting from 0 LI anymore ).

So there, just leave me alone and let whats past remain in the past. please ok

Attachments:

Arun Kar

(edited by nagr.1593)

Healers vs. Damage Dealers

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Posted by: Mitch.4781

Mitch.4781

All I want is for my healing elementalist to be desireable. Ele’s can do more heals/second than any other class, it’s just not burst and no GotL so no one wants it. I suspect Guardian’s next elite spec will be a healer-oriented specialization (unless they give Minstrel or Bard specs to mesmer’s)

Healing ELE is very desirable and we use them all the time in wing 2 and 4

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Posted by: Mossy Gargoyle.3274

Mossy Gargoyle.3274

Today i was insta-kicked from 3 separate and unrelated CM groups for wing 4, without any red flag being raised from my perspective. I mean that, I did not even know/expect to be kicked as soon as I entered an instance, nor did I get any prior warning this was about to happen. On two of these cases, commander themself did not have any problem with me, but one or two people (underlings) in his squad did. He would take their word over mine, simply believing some misplaced rumor?

nagr, it’s hard to say exactly what prompts so many different groups to kick you on sight. Perhaps it’s your performance record. Maybe it’s a long list of pugs who have blacklisted you. Or it might be that your forum posting history has tarnished your name. After all, you did author this lunacy:

“I mean if you wanna hold LI as golden standard for experience (ur words) then you might as well go ahead and promote racism as its basically the same thing here, i mean not to say that theres anything inherently wrong iwth that but just dont expect others to follow you down that road either..”

So what has damaged your reputation within the raid community? I guess it’s one of those unsolvable GW2 mysteries.

Healers vs. Damage Dealers

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Posted by: nagr.1593

nagr.1593

And what’s LI but just a number, and worse a number that say only how many weeks you been raiding consistently. It’s just a time-related number tbh, if someone has 250 LI more then me bc they picked up HoT couple months before I did, then they will always continue to lead me by at least 250 LI no matter how many I get.

It’s so easy to say that LI is a golden standard when you have tons of it accumulated (thtat you work hard for obv). But even if you have alts, you link LI on your main acct. What if you for some reason removed all your LI and started from scratch, and all you see are groups with LI requirements posted on LFG?

You will feel taht bottomless feeling that exp raiders will always have ‘X’ LI more then you, while you can do nothing about it.

Simply formula for time relation with LI is basically ((~(LI/10) x weeks ) x 7 days) to figure out how long someone been raiding consistently, if amt of LI being linked is substantial amt.

So yeah people excluding you from group just bc they have been doing same old content X weeks more then you is just wrong, worse it’s bad design. I wouldn’t exclude someone exp at fight just bc i have more weeks raiding then them.

If you do though for some reason, then you are prob taking gaming a bit too seriously. This is PvE and shouldn’t cross over into PvP which is I undrstand competitive by nature.

Arun Kar

(edited by nagr.1593)

Healers vs. Damage Dealers

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

I can’t fathom that you missed the point that bad just now.

It’s not about LI’s. Go re-read what you’re quoted as saying and see how off base it is to even remotely compare the two subjects you linked.

Healers vs. Damage Dealers

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: nagr.1593

nagr.1593

It’s not about LI’s. Go re-read what you’re quoted as saying and see how off base it is to even remotely compare the two subjects you linked.

Yet everything circles back to LI’s and how much you have (or don’t have). That quote of me was talking about how I was saying LI is just plain wrong to use as sole metric.

Based on my experience, telling person who gets kicked for having ~20 LI less then was asked for, that it’s ‘not about LI’s – is just untrue.

Arun Kar

(edited by nagr.1593)