Guild Wars 2

Hello everyone, and Anet employees and balance team. Please read this article, it’s my opinion on the current state of dungeons and such.

Let me explain my point of view: I love GW2. This is the game of my dreams. It has INCREDIBLE Graphics, awesome lore and lighthearted humor with incredible landscapes and a fun battle system. Yet, why are dungeons so stressing? Look for instance Cadecaus Manor, the new AC, and the dreadful Twilight Arbor. Sure, incredibly skilled players will scroll thru it and say “Easy, Faceroll, boring, etc” but how many times did they wipe before learning the ropes on how to pass the dungeon?

1) THROWING MOBS THAT CAN BE EASILY MISTAKEN FOR THE ONES FOUND IN THE OUTSIDE WORLD AND GIVING THEM A HUGE HP BOOST IS COUNTER-INTUITIVE

Why cant the spiders in the AC dungeon and twilight arbor look different from the ones in the outside world? When a new dungeon explorer sees them for the first time, they assume it will be just as easy as the ones he killed earlier in easier level fields. Big mistake. The spiders in AC are so incredibly powerful that a new player can’t possibly make a mistake with them and now with their HP boosted, they cant rally either. It applies to all mobs in most dungeons. Yes, they have that silver, purple, gold ring on their names, but their design can make them different, thus increasing awareness to new players. “Ahhh, I never seen this guy before, I must be careful…”

2) INCREASING THE HP OF TRASH MOBS IN DUNGEONS ISN’T REALLY INTERESTING OR CHALLENGING

While I don’t like calling them “trash”, it should be fair that mobs without much importance should not take 5 minutes to destroy. This doesn’t provide challenge to most players, instead is like an artificial wall that slows down the progress of the team. Players’ don’t need those. If you (Anet) want to make players last longer in dungeons, how about creating a system where the more mobs a team of players destroy, the chances of receiving good loot at the end chest increase? Maybe that fancy door wont open unless all the spiders are destroyed? or one of them drops a key? etc. Think about this: Why do most players want to SKIP mobs and find exploits rather than fight them all? The answer is (TimeXProfit). Give them a reason to fight them all!

3) THE TOTAL HP OF BOSSES DOES NOT DEFINE HOW INTERESTING THE FIGHT WILL BE

Some bosses have little to no interesting mechanics, but their HP is ridiculously high. An example, Twilight arbor, the strange looking trees from the beginning of exp mode… Do they really need to have that much HP to create a “challenging” and “interesting” fight? When a fight becomes stressing instead of fun, you maaaaaay want to consider the overall fight. Take for example Kholer and Lupicus. They are made for groups of 5, but I had a BLAST fighting Kholer (post update). He requires me to pay attention to all his moves, and taught me how to fight properly and be patient in the fight. That fight, ANET, was a masterpiece. Still, many skipped the fight altogether in part because of the rewards and time it took to kill him.

4) DIFFICULTY SHOULD BE GRADUAL, NOT A WALL AT THE BEGINNING OF THE RACE!

Why is AC dungeon so difficult to many, and easy to few? Yes, I know, exp mode is the hard mode version of the dungeon; story mode is the easy mode. But even so, the difficulty spike in the dungeon that is easy enough for a 5 man party of lvl 35’s should be easier than… say Arah dungeon. And even so, the loot from it shouldn’t be better than those last dungeons either. *Create a latter type scale of difficulty, rather than a mountain at the beginning of the journey!*

Part 2-

5) IT IS WRONG TO ADD A BUNCH OF SUPER-STEROID CHARGED MOBS IN A ROOM AND CALLING IT A DAY

Has anyone seen how hard it is to get a group in Cadecaus Manor? Mobs that take minutes to kill, you cant move too much since snipers shoot you harder if you move, but if you don’t the other mobs give you 10+ stacks of bleed. Is like being told “sit and roll” at the same time. Dungeons need to be challenging in the sense that a players overall skills are challenged, but that doesn’t mean every mob needs to be over-charged with power. At that point, you are testing the groups overall patience, tolerance, and drive to finish the dungeon. Besides, there are other ways to create challenging content, rather than this…

6) DUNGEONS SHOULD HAVE MECHANICS THAT USE ALL CLASSES ABILITIES

Why not create dungeons that have uses for each specialty from various classes? Like a room where a thief could easily sneak in and press that button to open the gates for a group. Or a bridge, where a mesmer can create a portal and move the entire group across, or a place where a ranger can snipe out mobs from afar without bringing danger to the team? This will, no doubt, teach new players how to use their classes to their full potential. In jumping puzzles, I use my abilities as a ranger to quickly jump from one platform to the next, and while battling I look like a grasshopper, jumping away from danger in a heartbeat!

7) BALANCE OUT THE DUNGEONS WITH ALL CLASSES IN MIND

Instead, most dungeons seem to be easier for certain classes and for some not so good. Imagine; I use a ranger in AC, I use short bow for melee ghosts, and great-sword for mages and such. For graveling burrows, I use great-sword with QZ, and ice traps to slow down the incoming gravelings. Yet it takes me YEARS (an exaggeration, I know) to eliminate a burrow, while a elementalist can use ice bow and trash it in mere seconds…
Yes, some classes are different than others, especially in DPS, yet, what can you say with a team of 5 rangers? or how about 3 Necros and 2 thieves? Will they save the NPC and destroy the burrows in time?

_FINAL WORDS_

Whenever a game company creates dungeons for their one big game, it is hard to create content that is both challenging for elite gamers and also worthwhile and fun for those willing to learn the ropes. However, I feel Anet doesn’t have a good taste of what “challenging” content really means.

Sincerely;

A fan of your game

All the singular points have been brought up previously, and tbh, most of these are very subjective, also, as a whole, there are a lot of contradicting points in this post.

Perhaps explaining a bit more about what experiences led you to these conclusions would help the discussion a bit more.

Hey Jzl, sure but can you tell me how Im being subjective? also, can you point out my contradictions? I will be glad to explain further.

I admit that some parts of the dungeons are lacking by the developers. Like in CM, where you have to kill all those bandits in that giant room. thats not really challenging or fun gameplay.

After some digging I would assume that you are more or less on the casual side and mainly played a ranger right from the release of the game. Forgive me if I’m wrong, like I said, putting things into perspective helps a lot with the discussion. The reason I said the points are subjective is because (well, they are opinions rather than facts, and they are just by definition subjective) a lot of the points you raised I don’t personally see as outstanding issues.

The problem is, as soon as you through in words like “Stressful”, “frustrating”, and “challenging” together in a general discussion without a clear reference, it becomes impossible for other people to anchor to your perspective. So say, is constant stun from graveling stressful, frustrating or challenging? Are people just referring to challenges they cannot overcome as frustrating? You seem to welcome challenges, but on the other hand it also seems like you only want challenges they way you want them or those you are comfortable with, so can they be considered as a challenge after all?

Aden Celeste.3650:

…how many times did they wipe before learning the ropes on how to pass the dungeon?

I thought this was the exact process that the people who are asking for harder/more challenging content are looking to go through. I think you just described the process of “overcoming a challenge”. People who asks for hard content are actually a lot more realistic when it comes to success or failure, because I certainly don’t think it’s the same kind of people who say “Let’s try this new hard content.” and “ kitten i didn’t faceroll that in the first go.”

Aden Celeste.3650:

• 6) DUNGEONS SHOULD HAVE MECHANICS THAT USE ALL CLASSES ABILITIES
• Why not create dungeons that have uses for each specialty from various classes? Like a room where a thief could easily sneak in and press that button to open the gates for a group. Or a bridge, where a mesmer can create a portal and move the entire group across
• 7) BALANCE OUT THE DUNGEONS WITH ALL CLASSES IN MIND
• Instead, most dungeons seem to be easier for certain classes and for some not so good.

See the contradiction here? Why is thieves using stealth and mesmer using portals okay while icebow is bow is just plain OP? and btw, thieve can easily sneak in and out and push the button in CoE1 golem control room, run through the the lava in CoF 2, and twenty more scenarios, mesmer can utilize there portal all the way they want, either it be the infamous CoF 1 flame trap, or you can just portal stealth portal in any where you want. And I thought a ranger standing far sniping w/o dangering the group was what you categorized as as “brainless” and “unfun”.

this is bad feedback. too selfish and subjective. it’s also clearly from the viewpoint of the kind of player that explorable modes are not designed for.

Jzl.8715:

After some digging I would assume that you are more or less on the casual side and mainly played a ranger right from the release of the game. Forgive me if I’m wrong, like I said, putting things into perspective helps a lot with the discussion. The reason I said the points are subjective is because (well, they are opinions rather than facts, and they are just by definition subjective) a lot of the points you raised I don’t personally see as outstanding issues.

The problem is, as soon as you through in words like “Stressful”, “frustrating”, and “challenging” together in a general discussion without a clear reference, it becomes impossible for other people to anchor to your perspective. So say, is constant stun from graveling stressful, frustrating or challenging? Are people just referring to challenges they cannot overcome as frustrating? You seem to welcome challenges, but on the other hand it also seems like you only want challenges they way you want them or those you are comfortable with, so can they be considered as a challenge after all?

Aden Celeste.3650:

…how many times did they wipe before learning the ropes on how to pass the dungeon?

I thought this was the exact process that the people who are asking for harder/more challenging content are looking to go through. I think you just described the process of “overcoming a challenge”. People who asks for hard content are actually a lot more realistic when it comes to success or failure, because I certainly don’t think it’s the same kind of people who say “Let’s try this new hard content.” and kitten i didn’t faceroll that in the first go."

Aden Celeste.3650:

• 6) DUNGEONS SHOULD HAVE MECHANICS THAT USE ALL CLASSES ABILITIES
• Why not create dungeons that have uses for each specialty from various classes? Like a room where a thief could easily sneak in and press that button to open the gates for a group. Or a bridge, where a mesmer can create a portal and move the entire group across
• 7) BALANCE OUT THE DUNGEONS WITH ALL CLASSES IN MIND
• Instead, most dungeons seem to be easier for certain classes and for some not so good.

See the contradiction here? Why is thieves using stealth and mesmer using portals okay while icebow is bow is just plain OP? and btw, thieve can easily sneak in and out and push the button in CoE1 golem control room, run through the the lava in CoF 2, and twenty more scenarios, mesmer can utilize there portal all the way they want, either it be the infamous CoF 1 flame trap, or you can just portal stealth portal in any where you want. And I thought a ranger standing far sniping w/o dangering the group was what you categorized as as “brainless” and “unfun”.

Thanks for replying to my earlier post. Here, I will explain what I mean with my PO.

1) No, I do understand that some challenges need to be overcome, like Kholer for instance. He was at the right spot of making players learn the ropes and avoid danger, while making him dangerous to play too much with. The old and new gravelings on the other hand can make it so that regardless of how many stun breakers your character may have they can chain an event of knock backs, and in the old AC an chain of drop downs that will bring your character to near powerlessness. See, if it was just my point of view, there wouldn’t be so many complaints regarding the dungeons. Actually, I agree with hard content, but content that always gave way to possibilities and gave you a hint of how to manage it.

Give me your opinion regarding those gravelings, or the new HP on those spiders. How about the knockbacks on the gravelings? I know for a fact those are my complaints, yet the forums are there for anyone to speak their mind.

2) The Ice bow thing with elementalists are not mechanics like stealth and so forth, its a dps thing. If all classes were good enough for those burrows for instance, what would be the solution for 2 rangers and 3 necros to deal with those burrows with efficiency and speed?

Mind you, I have done many if not all the dungeons, but even my guild find them extremely stressing.

I’m only going to talk about point 6) and 7) :

You know CM, the dungeon you seem to hate ? Each class can bring something (won’t speak about rangers or engineers because I don’t play one), from condition removals, to damage mitigation, to anti-projectiles. And for the hell of it, you can even use a portal or stealth to make things easier (maybe).

But you cannot make stealth or portal dramatically life changing. Unlike anti projectiles (or at least blind) and condition removal, which are shared by a lot of professions, stealth is mostly something only a thief (and to an extent a mesmer) can use and portal is only something a mesmer can use.

As for burrows : the problem isn’t with ice bows. It’s with rangers attack suffering from bugs when trying to destroy one and necromancers being terrible at destroying them because Anet decided to make this class rely on an attribute that serves only one single purpose without giving them any advantage whatsoever.

RedStar.4218:

necromancers being terrible at destroying [structures] because Anet decided to make this class rely on an attribute that serves only one single purpose without giving them any advantage whatsoever.

I can accept this limitation from a lore/background angle – Necromancers manipulate the energies of life and death, so they should be stymied if you ask them to simply bludgeon through a block of inanimate matter. There should be a tradeoff, though, in that they would excel at debilitating and damaging heavily-armored foes who can shrug off normal attacks (e.g. Veteran Supervisors, before ANet changed Righteous Indignation).