Guild Wars 2

After lots of searching, I finally found the post by Anet devs about how long dungeons were supposed to take:

Short way: expected run time: 45 minutes, 30 minutes is “super fast”. I think we should consider this when we think about what direction Anet’s future changes might take. (like, which paths are too short and can expect further changes that lengthen them).

Original post, in context of DR restrictions:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Being-efficient-in-dungeons-means-less-reward/page/4#post272866

I think their ‘fix’ was basically the reward system implemented months ago.

Balancing fractal rewards by making dungeons take longer

about a year ago

Lots have changed sice launch mate.

That was when people could still farm COF ENDLESSLY. But now they time gate the rewards. Anet no longer cares if you finish a dungeon path fast or long, you all have the same rewards anyways.

By the ways, that is a good necromancer move.

Diminishing Returns in general exists as a safety net so that any sort of farming exploit would wear itself out.

The reason I searched for and posted the above was that there is much debate about how long dungeons do and/or should take to finish. Every skipping debate, every optimization debate, all eventually also need to consider how long Anet think a dungeon should take.

While the expected dungeon times above are »obiter dictum« to a debate about dungeon rewards, they are still a source for the intended gameplay length. I’m also pretty sure there were other sources stating the 45 minutes intended dungeon gameplay times.

This is important. Dungeon rewards are balanced around how long dungeons take. Remember that for economy vs. gameplay balance is an important subject. If the elite earn too much, while they are happy, the masses are cut off from the shinies – and if ALL the shinies are too far… the masses could move on. And I don’t think dungeon runners are the most cash spending kind, rather the obvious, they are express gold earners, who are the most likely to buy gems with gold rather than cash. Hmm, I think THAT issue deserves a thread of its own.

It is an indication that the paths that take 10-20 minutes can still expect further changes, more invisible walls, more safe spots made inaccesible. It is an indication that longer parths are not likely to receive shortening changes.

Does this mean they think soe2 is their best dungeon or something?

I think that it’s incredibly naïve to think that average times from 1 year ago would be comparable to today. People have been playing the game a year longer— we’ve figured out the tricks, we’ve figured out the builds. 10 minutes faster, on average, over the course of one year is not unreasonable.

Jure Simich.6154:

The reason I searched for and posted the above was that there is much debate about how long dungeons do and/or should take to finish. Every skipping debate, every optimization debate, all eventually also need to consider how long Anet think a dungeon should take.

While the expected dungeon times above are »obiter dictum« to a debate about dungeon rewards, they are still a source for the intended gameplay length. I’m also pretty sure there were other sources stating the 45 minutes intended dungeon gameplay times.

This is important. Dungeon rewards are balanced around how long dungeons take. Remember that for economy vs. gameplay balance is an important subject. If the elite earn too much, while they are happy, the masses are cut off from the shinies – and if ALL the shinies are too far… the masses could move on. And I don’t think dungeon runners are the most cash spending kind, rather the obvious, they are express gold earners, who are the most likely to buy gems with gold rather than cash. Hmm, I think THAT issue deserves a thread of its own.

It is an indication that the paths that take 10-20 minutes can still expect further changes, more invisible walls, more safe spots made inaccesible. It is an indication that longer parths are not likely to receive shortening changes.

Patching safe spots, invisible walls etc (exploits basically) will mostly only slow down pugs. Elite groups hardly use any of that because it slows down the run.

They’ve already patched many safe spots – Rabsovich, Mossman (although it can still be done), Belka, Abomination just to name a few. Elite guilds didn’t use any of those. You can still do safe spots on Mage Crusher and the cart event in SE p3, pugs use them, elites don’t, they pretty much melee everything. Almost anything done to dungeons to make them harder will affect pugs more than elite groups. Elites will adapt and will always complete content much faster than pugs.

Paths would have to be completely redone if they were to take 45 mins to complete, not just removing safe spots and installing invisible walls.

There is obviously a disconnect between how long Anet expects dungeons to take and how long they actually take. As others have already said, the 1-time reward of gold at the end of the path, in addition to the DR effecting the 26 silver at the end, discourages doing the same path more than once per day. However, that does not prevent us farmers from making terrific cash.

Let’s look at the following dungeons I do every night, and their daily gold chests:

AC 1: 1.5g – AC 2: 1.5g – AC 3: 1.5g – CoF 1: 1g – CoF 2: 1g – CM 1: 1g – CM 3: 1g – TA up: 1g – TA fwd: 1g – SE 1: 1g – SE 3: 1g – HotW 1: 1g – CoE 1: 1g – CoE 2: 1g – CoE 3: 1g – Arah 2: 3g – Arah 3: 1.5g

That’s 17 paths, and a total of 21g from chests. Then your additional 26s * 17 = 4.42g. So you’re making 25.42g just from end-dungeon rewards. But that’s not all! I seem to be making 30-35g in cash each night, so where’s that coming from? Oh, right, there are those blue satchels that give you money bags, plus additional silver/copper from bosses/mobs.

Then you’re also getting a bunch of materials and blue/green/rare/exotic armor/weapons. I salvage the blues and greens with the infinite Copper Salvage-o-Matic, and the rares with a Mystic Salvage Kit. The exotics I either sell or salvage with a Black Lion kit, depending on the current broker price for them. My net cost of salvage kits is very close to zero, since it only costs 3c per blue/green, and because I get Mystic Forge Stones/BL kits from dailies/AP reward chests faster than I use them. Selling all the mats I get each day from drops/salvages is another 15-20g.

Then on top of all that, I happen to have half a dozen dungeon recipes. So that’s another 8g per day, just from making exotic jewelry from my daily tokens, minus 3g for the Orichalcum and listing fees, netting 5g.

In total, how much money is all this? 50-60g per daily dungeon tour.

Doing those 17 paths I listed takes about 4 hours with the guild each night, starting at reset. So I’m making 12.5 – 15g per hour, without path-selling or exploiting (unless you’re one of those “FGS is exploit!” morons), just by speedrunning. Did Anet intend this? I have no idea. All I know is that, if I were to pug these same dungeons, it would take me 8-10 hours instead, meaning I’d only be making 5 – 7.5g per hour.

Now I’ll compare this to various types of legit Arah path-selling.

You can speedrun Arah p4 is 30 mins, and sell 4 slots for 15g each, plus the 3.26g the opener gets (63.26g total). You then split that 5 ways, so 12.6g per person. However, it usually takes 15-30 mins to get 4x buyers in the party, so you’re still only making 12.6 – 16.8g per hour, only slightly higher than I make doing my nightly dungeon tour. And you can only do this once per day (maybe DnT or rT have enough buyers to do it twice or 3 times per day, but I don’t).

You used to be able to solo Arah p2 in 50 mins, but since the update, I’ve always had to call for backup at Alphard (I’m probably just a noob for not being able to solo him). Let’s assume that A) you can still solo in 50 mins, or B) whoever you call in to help at Alphard (and sometimes Lupi) doesn’t charge you. You can sell 4x slots for 6g each at the end, plus your own 3.26g (27.26g total). p2 fills faster than p4, so it’s usually full within 10-20 mins. That means 23.3 – 27.26g per hour. You can usually do this 2-3 times per day (once again, DnT or rT can probably do it a lot more each day, since they have more buyers). This is where the real money is. Did Anet intend this? Once again, I have no idea. I’d guess not. All I know is that I’d be very, very angry if they somehow prevented solo’ing by introducing something akin to the gate in CoF p1.

One year old posts are super relevant, especially since the reward structure has changed like three times since then.