Guild Wars 2

I didn’t think people actually sold raid runs. I thought all of those posts in LFG were scams xD. Looks like people are scamming themselves by not learning the fights though!

Iris Ng.9845:

I have to disagree about the “hard gated” thing. My casual guild only killed VG two weeks ago. We used two druids on every kills then as a safety pad. We always phased at 6:50 to 7:05 minutes on the timer. Since last week, we had to pug for Gors because we cannot get everyone during the week days. Nailed it. The catch? I keep doing gear check, skill check, role check, faq check every single member, every single time. It’s not about being hardcore or casual. My guild succeeded by bringing the right mindset.

There are also those super casual guilds, like mine, that grew up on dire, stealth and carry from others.

I tried, really tried with my guild, got them builds, explained the fight over and over. Then on VG everyone runs around like a chicken. TS doesn’t help, explaining stuff again doesn’t help, everything check doesn’t help.

For people like my guildies, raids are not “hard gated”, it’s more like an impenetrable wall.

Jayden Ennok.3687:

There are also those super casual guilds, like mine, that grew up on dire, stealth and carry from others.

I tried, really tried with my guild, got them builds, explained the fight over and over. Then on VG everyone runs around like a chicken. TS doesn’t help, explaining stuff again doesn’t help, everything check doesn’t help.

For people like my guildies, raids are not “hard gated”, it’s more like an impenetrable wall.

I think a lot of people seem to forget that not everyone learns at the same rate. For some they may only have to do VG a couple times and get a good grasp on the fight. For others, they might need 10-12 HOURS of time on a fight to get it down.

I actually track player time on bosses within our guild runs. That way we can identify who is actually having a hard time vs someone who just hasn’t done it much.

The bottom line is if you are one of those people that is going to take 10+ hours to learn the fight. You need to really really be self motivated to get there. Most of those people seem not to be. You also need people patient enough to help you there as well.

savacli.8172:

FrostDraco.8306:

So this is a very interesting topic. Quite frankly for me its a mix of saying “well you kinda did this to yourself” even though the action itself is dishonest.

It’s easier to fake things when people are selling the eternal title for gold. It becomes even easier when you can ping things through chat codes. But we are also at a point where people feel like they have to fake in order to get into a raid because quite frankly, what you need to get into even a raid guild is quite absurd.

I’ve had people tell me:

“You are not good enough to raid”
“You don’t know enough about PvE”
“You will never be good enough to raid” (my personal favorite)

And many things like it. And when i applied i always said i had no experience raiding, and was honest on every question asked. I spent 3 weeks looking for a raiding guild and group, especially ones saying that they wanted to teach new raiders, and in the end I didn’t get into a single one because they just weren’t going to take the time to teach me how to raid.

People do not want to make time for new raiders. People do not want to teach new raiders. And quite frankly its at the point where people will fake it because of that. Some feel like they have no other option. You kinda did this to yourself, and while faking it is wrong, you are reaping what you sowed.

Nothing is gonna change, so if you carry on this mentality, you have little to complain about. It isn’t going to help the problem or make it go away. People acting that way has made the problem worse than it used to be if anything. I’m a person that could have been a dedicated raider, but if i don’t know how to raid, then how can i do that? People saying they are willing to teach, and actually aren’t.

For now I’ve given up on raids. I’m quite disgusting with how some people act regarding them. I’ll spend my time in fractals while its still good for me, because the raiding community is a toxic cesspool atm. And this is coming from someone that plays League of Legends, HoN, and DotA, so i know a thing or two about that.

It’s the real world equivalent of an employer looking for a candidate with “x” years of experience, but very few companies are willing to take a risk/don’t care to train folks with no experience. Sure, if you have connections (guilds) or know the right people you will have a much easier time getting in the industry (raids). Though, if you don’t, you’re going to find it difficult and will have to work harder than others. I realize that there was effectively “career day” shortly after the launch of raids, and those that weren’t online at the time missed out on a lot of available positions.

So, what do you do now? Keep trying. At the very least do what you can to get your name out in the field. E.G. There are plenty of “teaching groups” that run on the weekends that literally take anyone whether they have 0 hours of experience or over 100 hours of experience. They may not get the kill, but at the very least you will have seen all aspects of the fight and will have been communicated what the typical strats are for that encounter.

Other than that? Keep joining groups and keep applying at guilds and eventually you will find that someone is willing to give you the big breakthrough that you’ve been looking for. After you have some experience on your resume you’ll find that it’s much much easier to find a group. It’s just that initial hurdle that’s the most difficult.

Although this is complete BS from a common sense point of view, it is actually how employment really works against all odds. Companies are completely fine with the idea to wait for the perfect candidate for actually years and miss boatloads of money instead of taking the minimal risk of working with someone who needs a little time to be competent, despite how much it is a spit in the face of common sense.
One of my old bosses was such a noble species of man who would only accept the best for certain positions, leading to work done subpar by people with no qualification to do it from the start and him getting screamed at. Luckily it was a goverment position, so in the end nobody cared how incompetent and ineffecient this type of leadership trully is.^^

Haven’t had any issues with pugs. Have done several successful “no coms” runs using LFG and otherwise any new or people struggling with mechanics have been very upfront and most of the time people are ok with giving them a couple runs to get acclimated.

Organized groups however…

Lots of people get stuck in a mindset of X is the best or Y is the only way to do something. I run as a part of many organized groups throughout the week and each one has different strategies and even different preferred “fallback” strategies if something goes catastrophically wrong. And they all clear at about the same speed, ~1 hour.

I bring this up because once people learn how to do something a certain way, it becomes difficult for them to accept that there could be an alternative that could work just as well or better depending on the specific situation and the ability of the rest of the group, which leads to hilariously ignorant arguing. So, a player that typically performs well suddenly is doing poorly and has no idea why and is doing nothing to fix their issues because “this works with my other group” effectively making them a leech/faker.

I haven’t had this issue ever come up in a pug group and the inexperienced players I’ve encountered haven’t established their biases yet meaning they’ve been open to trying different strategies based on the classes we have available at the time. I’ve actually had LESS issues with pug groups because of this.

I don’t doubt there are leeches out there, but it is rare enough that I haven’t yet encountered one in a pug, and raiding is literally all I do in this game.

Mmm just want to share my raid story. I joined a guild hoping to get on a raid team. Never killed beyond vg. Killed vg after an hour, my guild raid team wanted to phase gors without updraft. Couldnt even take him down past half health. After 2 weeks I was informed by the guild leader I had been kicked from the guild bc one, my performance was poor on the raid, and two… bc I didn’t talk enough on ts. Blew my mind. The guild leader was a nice guy, going by his raid commanders I guess. Felt pretty dejected.

Saw a post online about Synergy (lol) from jade quarry, talked to the guild leader, very nice guy, let me in. We have about 7 raid teams for diff. days of the week. I apply for one raid team was put on a weekend trial. On my very first day, killed vg on 2nd try, and gors on 2nd try. I guess I wasnt bad after all. The next day we killed sab. I had never done sab and instead of creating a toxic enviroment, the raid lead simply gave me suggestions, asked me to raise my game and gave me a chance to prove myself. The next weekend we killed both vg and gors on the first try. Sab the day after. I now think my first guild did me a favor, I wouldnt have found Synergy.

If you need a solid guild, with tons of raid experience, look into Synergy.

DontPaniC.8740:

All adding raiding to the gw2 did was divide the gaming community and bring out elitist players that are slaves to the meta.

“Slaves to the meta”
It’s being efficient. It makes things easier. I surely wouldn’t want to see someone running full nomad healer engi in my raid group just because “I play whatever I want!” -attitude

Huttunen.8309:

DontPaniC.8740:

All adding raiding to the gw2 did was divide the gaming community and bring out elitist players that are slaves to the meta.

“Slaves to the meta”
It’s being efficient. It makes things easier. I surely wouldn’t want to see someone running full nomad healer engi in my raid group just because “I play whatever I want!” -attitude

Without a DPS meter you can’t actually prove what is efficient. All you can do is make the meta to be what ‘appears’ efficient.

Don’t use an argument you clearly don’t understand the principles of.

FrostDraco.8306:

Huttunen.8309:

DontPaniC.8740:

All adding raiding to the gw2 did was divide the gaming community and bring out elitist players that are slaves to the meta.

“Slaves to the meta”
It’s being efficient. It makes things easier. I surely wouldn’t want to see someone running full nomad healer engi in my raid group just because “I play whatever I want!” -attitude

Without a DPS meter you can’t actually prove what is efficient. All you can do is make the meta to be what ‘appears’ efficient.

Don’t use an argument you clearly don’t understand the principles of.

Did you miss all the DPS meter threads?

Coulter.2315:

FrostDraco.8306:

Huttunen.8309:

DontPaniC.8740:

All adding raiding to the gw2 did was divide the gaming community and bring out elitist players that are slaves to the meta.

“Slaves to the meta”
It’s being efficient. It makes things easier. I surely wouldn’t want to see someone running full nomad healer engi in my raid group just because “I play whatever I want!” -attitude

Without a DPS meter you can’t actually prove what is efficient. All you can do is make the meta to be what ‘appears’ efficient.

Don’t use an argument you clearly don’t understand the principles of.

Did you miss all the DPS meter threads?

We must’ve missed that efficient nomad engineer raid build. We don’t understand the principles yo.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Coulter.2315:

FrostDraco.8306:

Huttunen.8309:

DontPaniC.8740:

All adding raiding to the gw2 did was divide the gaming community and bring out elitist players that are slaves to the meta.

“Slaves to the meta”
It’s being efficient. It makes things easier. I surely wouldn’t want to see someone running full nomad healer engi in my raid group just because “I play whatever I want!” -attitude

Without a DPS meter you can’t actually prove what is efficient. All you can do is make the meta to be what ‘appears’ efficient.

Don’t use an argument you clearly don’t understand the principles of.

Did you miss all the DPS meter threads?

We must’ve missed that efficient nomad engineer raid build. We don’t understand the principles yo.

I was referring to the use of ‘meta’. Not a specific instance of low damage stats set. If you are gonna use a strawman at least make it a good one.

Do I need to explain what ‘meta’ means? I sincerely hope not, because the conversation is much deeper than that. Especially in a game that has a wide versatility of usable runes, stats, sigils, and food. Allowing you to min and max in different ways. Not to mention different fights (with NPCs) having different encounter types which make some builds (like Zerker vs perma protection bosses) builds have less effectiveness. Saying it is ‘meta’ would mean it is meta all the time, except for the fact that some fights are really designed to be geared more towards condi, or a more tanky build. So which one would be meta in a fight that requires a tank build? All of them?

Then that would mean there is not meta, just simply what ‘appears’ to work best.

How about this. Try taking a squishy melee based build into the cliffside fractal with last laugh instability. See how ‘meta’ works out for you. But of course you will make this all about nomads, like you already did, when that wasn’t even my point to begin with.

Coulter.2315:

FrostDraco.8306:

Huttunen.8309:

DontPaniC.8740:

All adding raiding to the gw2 did was divide the gaming community and bring out elitist players that are slaves to the meta.

“Slaves to the meta”
It’s being efficient. It makes things easier. I surely wouldn’t want to see someone running full nomad healer engi in my raid group just because “I play whatever I want!” -attitude

Without a DPS meter you can’t actually prove what is efficient. All you can do is make the meta to be what ‘appears’ efficient.

Don’t use an argument you clearly don’t understand the principles of.

Did you miss all the DPS meter threads?

No, I have not. But the legal ones are not 100% accurate. That doesn’t make them unusable, but higher accuracy would be better when comparing something like Sinister vs Vipers vs Assassins gear. Actual DPS comparisons, with realistic DPS uptime would help people figure out which of these sets actually does the most dmg in most scenarios.

FrostDraco.8306:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Coulter.2315:

FrostDraco.8306:

Huttunen.8309:

DontPaniC.8740:

All adding raiding to the gw2 did was divide the gaming community and bring out elitist players that are slaves to the meta.

“Slaves to the meta”
It’s being efficient. It makes things easier. I surely wouldn’t want to see someone running full nomad healer engi in my raid group just because “I play whatever I want!” -attitude

Without a DPS meter you can’t actually prove what is efficient. All you can do is make the meta to be what ‘appears’ efficient.

Don’t use an argument you clearly don’t understand the principles of.

Did you miss all the DPS meter threads?

We must’ve missed that efficient nomad engineer raid build. We don’t understand the principles yo.

I was referring to the use of ‘meta’. Not a specific instance of low damage stats set. If you are gonna use a strawman at least make it a good one.

Do I need to explain what ‘meta’ means? I sincerely hope not, because the conversation is much deeper than that. Especially in a game that has a wide versatility of usable runes, stats, sigils, and food. Allowing you to min and max in different ways. Not to mention different fights (with NPCs) having different encounter types which make some builds (like Zerker vs perma protection bosses) builds have less effectiveness. Saying it is ‘meta’ would mean it is meta all the time, except for the fact that some fights are really designed to be geared more towards condi, or a more tanky build. So which one would be meta in a fight that requires a tank build? All of them?

Then that would mean there is not meta, just simply what ‘appears’ to work best.

How about this. Try taking a squishy melee based build into the cliffside fractal with last laugh instability. See how ‘meta’ works out for you. But of course you will make this all about nomads, like you already did, when that wasn’t even my point to begin with.

Coulter.2315:

FrostDraco.8306:

Huttunen.8309:

DontPaniC.8740:

All adding raiding to the gw2 did was divide the gaming community and bring out elitist players that are slaves to the meta.

“Slaves to the meta”
It’s being efficient. It makes things easier. I surely wouldn’t want to see someone running full nomad healer engi in my raid group just because “I play whatever I want!” -attitude

Without a DPS meter you can’t actually prove what is efficient. All you can do is make the meta to be what ‘appears’ efficient.

Don’t use an argument you clearly don’t understand the principles of.

Did you miss all the DPS meter threads?

No, I have not. But the legal ones are not 100% accurate. That doesn’t make them unusable, but higher accuracy would be better when comparing something like Sinister vs Vipers vs Assassins gear. Actual DPS comparisons, with realistic DPS uptime would help people figure out which of these sets actually does the most dmg in most scenarios.

And simulations and DPS meters have given us quite a lot of info on these things, you can’t complain about a meta which chooses things that appear efficient when all the best tools are being used to construct that appearance.

There is nothing wrong with not being 100% accurate. The principles of science are applied here (guess, test, modify guess, repeat), what are you taking issue with?

FrostDraco.8306:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Coulter.2315:

FrostDraco.8306:

Huttunen.8309:

DontPaniC.8740:

All adding raiding to the gw2 did was divide the gaming community and bring out elitist players that are slaves to the meta.

“Slaves to the meta”
It’s being efficient. It makes things easier. I surely wouldn’t want to see someone running full nomad healer engi in my raid group just because “I play whatever I want!” -attitude

Without a DPS meter you can’t actually prove what is efficient. All you can do is make the meta to be what ‘appears’ efficient.

Don’t use an argument you clearly don’t understand the principles of.

Did you miss all the DPS meter threads?

We must’ve missed that efficient nomad engineer raid build. We don’t understand the principles yo.

I was referring to the use of ‘meta’. Not a specific instance of low damage stats set. If you are gonna use a strawman at least make it a good one.

Do I need to explain what ‘meta’ means? I sincerely hope not, because the conversation is much deeper than that. Especially in a game that has a wide versatility of usable runes, stats, sigils, and food. Allowing you to min and max in different ways. Not to mention different fights (with NPCs) having different encounter types which make some builds (like Zerker vs perma protection bosses) builds have less effectiveness. Saying it is ‘meta’ would mean it is meta all the time, except for the fact that some fights are really designed to be geared more towards condi, or a more tanky build. So which one would be meta in a fight that requires a tank build? All of them?

Then that would mean there is not meta, just simply what ‘appears’ to work best.

How about this. Try taking a squishy melee based build into the cliffside fractal with last laugh instability. See how ‘meta’ works out for you. But of course you will make this all about nomads, like you already did, when that wasn’t even my point to begin with.

Coulter.2315:

FrostDraco.8306:

Huttunen.8309:

DontPaniC.8740:

All adding raiding to the gw2 did was divide the gaming community and bring out elitist players that are slaves to the meta.

“Slaves to the meta”
It’s being efficient. It makes things easier. I surely wouldn’t want to see someone running full nomad healer engi in my raid group just because “I play whatever I want!” -attitude

Without a DPS meter you can’t actually prove what is efficient. All you can do is make the meta to be what ‘appears’ efficient.

Don’t use an argument you clearly don’t understand the principles of.

Did you miss all the DPS meter threads?

No, I have not. But the legal ones are not 100% accurate. That doesn’t make them unusable, but higher accuracy would be better when comparing something like Sinister vs Vipers vs Assassins gear. Actual DPS comparisons, with realistic DPS uptime would help people figure out which of these sets actually does the most dmg in most scenarios.

Obviously some of the builds are really situational. Like if you move Gorseval off the lava fonts, staff ele DPS will go down a lot. But if you play well yourself or as a team, you will get closer to the numbers the charts show us. I probably didn’t do the best DPS on my viper necro yesterday who I geared up two days ago, since I wasn’t that familiar with the build yet, but it was enough to kill slothasor without that much problem. In the end it all depends on you if you can dish out the good DPS or not. But the numbers aren’t just illuminati that the top PvE guilds threw at us

Also I actually completed every fractal on a full berserker staff ele including the last laugh-fractals and 90+. Died a few times maybe, but in the end it all came down to dodging on right times, and on teamplay

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

BloodyNine.7504:

Chris McSwag.4683:

That being said, I don’t pug raids.

A lot of people that refuse to adapt to what is needed. Or maybe just not that interested and we end up teaching someone different every week. There are many reasons and it never is the same one from week to week.

Honestly I’d kick anyone that refused to adapt to the meta. Sounds harsh but it’s not fair to 9 people to be dragged down by 1 person.

I used condi rev noo problem on vg last night. 1shot kill with my group. Meta is for people who don’t understand how craft builds. Kinda lame to blindly hate EVERYONE who doesn’t follow meta

I’m just asking because last week I had to kick 3 people who were fakes, and they were easy to spot too. One person even admitted it and said sorry for dragging down the team. Anyways have you guys encountered this too?

This is why we need easy mode raids, so that people who aren’t willing or able to do the hard mode raids have someplace to go and work towards their goals without getting in anyone’s way.

Ohoni.6057:

This is why we need easy mode raids, so that people who aren’t willing or able to do the hard mode raids have someplace to go and work towards their goals without getting in anyone’s way.

No one is forcing people to raid unprepared. Either optimize your character or go somewhere else. Luckily, for non-raiders there is plenty of other content. As for “casuals.” This is simply another term for lazy.

No one is forcing people to raid unprepared. Either optimize your character or go somewhere else. Luckily, for non-raiders there is plenty of other content. As for “casuals.” This is simply another term for lazy.

Use whatever terms you prefer, the fact remains that they play the game and want to be supported too.

Ohoni.6057:

No one is forcing people to raid unprepared. Either optimize your character or go somewhere else. Luckily, for non-raiders there is plenty of other content. As for “casuals.” This is simply another term for lazy.

Use whatever terms you prefer, the fact remains that they play the game and want to be supported too.

And casuals are supported. There is so much content available to you. If you were to the point where you had nothing else to do I highly doubt you would be casual. In reality, you want to hit these bosses with a few attempts, get an easy zerg-tactic kill, and reap the rewards. You’re not fooling anyone. When people say this game isn’t “casual friendly” on these forums it is the direct result from them unwilling to put the work in. That is the literal definition of lazy and you can not argue this. Why do you think Dev’s pay more attention to reddit than this toxic environment? What casuals suggest would literally destroy this game.

And casuals are supported. There is so much content available to you. If you were to the point where you had nothing else to do I highly doubt you would be casual.

This does not matter. It does not matter that there is “something else to do,” what matters is whether the available tasks are ones the player wants to do. If the tasks that a player wants to do would be an easy mode raid, then an easy mode raid is what they want to do, suggest no substitutions and people will stop telling you that you’re completely missing the point.

In reality, you want to hit these bosses with a few attempts, get an easy zerg-tactic kill, and reap the rewards.

Yep.

When people say this game isn’t “casual friendly” on these forums it is the direct result from them unwilling to put the work in.

Exactly.

That is the literal definition of lazy and you can not argue this.

Ok, but what do you win for using more insulting terminology rather than less insulting terminology? The point is, they are what they are, deal with it.

Why do you think Dev’s pay more attention to reddit than this toxic environment?

Reddit literally has this same thread. If they spend less time on the forums, it probably has more to do with the forums having horrible software.

What casuals suggest would literally destroy this game.

You say “casuals,” but I think you mean “raiders.” That would be more accurate, at least.

Ohoni.6057:

This does not matter. It does not matter that there is “something else to do,” what matters is whether the available tasks are ones the player wants to do. If the tasks that a player wants to do would be an easy mode raid, then an easy mode raid is what they want to do, suggest no substitutions and people will stop telling you that you’re completely missing the point.

No it does matter. It means you haven’t put in TIME in a game that requires time. Simply because you want to do something in a MMO, does not mean you will instantly achieve this. You’re completely missing the point. You think you know more than Anet. It’s funny. “I want to raid, but I have never dealt with how raiding works. I expect instant rewards without time or effort!” Do you think raiding is new to MMO’s? GW2 invented it? It is becoming increasingly obvious that you have no experience in hardcore MMO gameplay. You’re seeing players who have literally put in THOUSANDS of hours into raid style game-play. Then you come along with zero experience and expect the same results. Everyone has to start somewhere big guy. What you are suggesting all around these forums is simply NOT how raiding works.

Ohoni.6057:

Ok, but what do you win for using more insulting terminology rather than less insulting terminology? The point is, they are what they are, deal with it.

The terminology is on point… This is the literal definition to what I am describing. Are you serious? The point is they are lazy and wish to reap the same rewards as people who put the work in. It’s really simple. There’s no point in arguing it. If you don’t want to do the content, then maybe you should deal with it?

Ohoni.6057:

You say “casuals,” but I think you mean “raiders.” That would be more accurate, at least.

How many raiders do you see giving awful suggestions? I can’t tell you how many “casuals” I see put 10 minutes into this game then give a full review/advice on changes. It’s hilarious. As a business Anet has opened this game up to such a wide variety of consumers. This will essentially increase the survivability of this game. Do you want to see GW2 die? Trust me, Anet is a whole hell of a lot smarter than you when it comes to this business.

Do you think raiding is new to MMO’s? GW2 invented it?

I think “what raiding is” is irrelevant to “what this game needs to have.”

If the thing you describe is what raiding needs to be, then that’s fine, the hard mode raid can stay that way, but I want no part of that experience. What I do want is an experience like the current raids, only without all that hassle and drama, which I understand is a different thing, which is why I say I want a different thing.

What you are suggesting all around these forums is simply NOT how raiding works.

Right, and as I’ve made clear, I have zero interest in raids that work like raids work, but I am interested in raids that don’t work like raids work.

The terminology is on point… This is the literal definition to what I am describing. Are you serious? The point is they are lazy and wish to reap the same rewards as people who put the work in.

Yeah, ok, we’ve established that well enough, now what are you going to do to make those players happy?

How many raiders do you see giving awful suggestions? I can’t tell you how many “casuals” I see put 10 minutes into this game then give a full review/advice on changes.

I have three thousand hours in at the moment, which is less than some, but more than ten minutes, at least. Now it’s true that only about 6-8 of those hours have been spent in the new raids, but that’s enough for me to realize, based on tens of thousands of hours of prior gaming experience, that for me, the current raids are not the sort of thing that I would ever enjoy in their current form, but that there are elements about them that I would really enjoy if they were slightly different, which is why I suggested that they offer a version that is slightly different.

Ohoni.6057:

I have three thousand hours in at the moment, which is less than some, but more than ten minutes, at least. Now it’s true that only about 6-8 of those hours have been spent in the new raids, but that’s enough for me to realize, based on tens of thousands of hours of prior gaming experience, that for me, the current raids are not the sort of thing that I would ever enjoy in their current form, but that there are elements about them that I would really enjoy if they were slightly different, which is why I suggested that they offer a version that is slightly different.

This is a ludicrous statement. You spend 0.002% of your total playtime in some content. Determine that it isn’t exactly how you like it and then state that it must be changed to suit you?

I don’t like WvW as it currently stands. However, I have some thoughts on how they could change it in a manner that would very much suit ME. But I am not complaining about that, because I realize that the world does not revolve around me.

On another note. I have run a good amount of people through the raid for their first time. I have found the AVERAGE player needs ~6-8 hours of experience on a boss to really get it down. Some seem to need 10-12 hours. So you went in there and gave it the absolute minimum effort. Now we need to change it to suit you?

Ohoni.6057:

This does not matter. It does not matter that there is “something else to do,” what matters is whether the available tasks are ones the player wants to do. If the tasks that a player wants to do would be an easy mode raid, then an easy mode raid is what they want to do, suggest no substitutions and people will stop telling you that you’re completely missing the point.

It does matter. Some players want hard content. Others don’t. Luckily, you can choose what content to participate in. Want hard content? Raid. Want easy content? Open world. Want medium level content? Fractals or dungeons. You choose what to play.

Do you advocate for easy mode jumping puzzles because some players can’t do them? Easy mode arah? No, because there is other content to choose from. I’m not sure why you’re focused on raids.

Watch a YouTube video if you want to see what raids are like. But you have other content if you find raids too difficult. Please consider that raids are one of the few high level content in this game. I’d rather have the raid team focus on new raids, rather than easy mode. You should be advocating for more fractals and dungeons (which I would agree is overdue).

This is a ludicrous statement. You spend 0.002% of your total playtime in some content. Determine that it isn’t exactly how you like it and then state that it must be changed to suit you?

Yes.

I don’t like WvW as it currently stands. However, I have some thoughts on how they could change it in a manner that would very much suit ME. But I am not complaining about that, because I realize that the world does not revolve around me.

You should. WvW is in a sorry state at the moment, and you might suggest something that could make it appeal to more players. You might also be wrong, but it couldn’t hurt to get the idea out there.

On another note. I have run a good amount of people through the raid for their first time. I have found the AVERAGE player needs ~6-8 hours of experience on a boss to really get it down. Some seem to need 10-12 hours. So you went in there and gave it the absolute minimum effort. Now we need to change it to suit you?

Yes, because 6-8 hours of fails is way too much, it should be more like 15-30 minutes, assuming you have a basic idea of what you’re meant to be doing when you go in.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, because 6-8 hours of fails is way too much, it should be more like 15-30 minutes, assuming you have a basic idea of what you’re meant to be doing when you go in.

If it took that short then the content would have nearly zero replay value. Which in a game that needs people logging in daily is a very bad idea. I know that I personally would have moved onto another game at this point if that were the case.

If it took that short then the content would have nearly zero replay value. Which in a game that needs people logging in daily is a very bad idea.

When it takes hours to nail down it has zero FIRSTplay value for most players. What I’m suggesting definitely would have replay value. Instead of a few thousand, and then a few hundred people willing to do tens of hours of raiding each, you’d have tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of players who would be playing for an hour or two a week, then doing other things with the rest of their time.

The people who enjoy the raid in its current form would continue to play it in its current form, because the rewards would be significantly more, and because they claim to enjoy that sort of content.

Ohoni.6057:

If it took that short then the content would have nearly zero replay value. Which in a game that needs people logging in daily is a very bad idea.

When it takes hours to nail down it has zero FIRSTplay value for most players. What I’m suggesting definitely would have replay value. Instead of a few thousand, and then a few hundred people willing to do tens of hours of raiding each, you’d have tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of players who would be playing for an hour or two a week, then doing other things with the rest of their time.

The people who enjoy the raid in its current form would continue to play it in its current form, because the rewards would be significantly more, and because they claim to enjoy that sort of content.

I guess they would not. Harcore raiders know that their recruitment capacity entirely hangs on exclusivity and suggested superiority. Nobody right in his mind would fight through a hard raid when he can also choose to do the same thing in a way as if it were a dungeon, no matter if it takes a little longer to get the reward.

Its also the reason why Anet had to put a big carrot behind raids. The base of true raiders is probably so small that raids have to be proped up to incite people normally not interested in them to at least look at them. I personally find that painfully obvious with the nerfs of dungeons and the raid reward being exclusive made at the same time. Of course there was also GW2 going F2P at the same time, but that is just a sidewar justification in my opinion. Raids had to look strong, or the immediate strategy of Anet would have bombed.

I guess they would not. Harcore raiders know that their recruitment capacity entirely hangs on exclusivity and suggested superiority. Nobody right in his mind would fight through a hard raid when he can also choose to do the same thing in a way as if it were a dungeon, no matter if it takes a little longer to get the reward.

Wow, if that is truly the case, then they probably shouldn’t waste time developing raids, should they? That seems like a preposterous waste of resources, no matter how small a team they assign to it.

That is just my opinion of course. Anet recently stated that more people than usual raid in GW2 because it is more acessible and there is no gear treadmill in the tradition of other games.

I think of it like this(making up a fictional example):
A common guild has been a mixed bag some time ago. There were dungeoneers, casuals who just wandered around, wvwers, pvper etc. It did not matter which group you were in, people asked in map chat if someone came along for a quick dungeon, joined TS or something.

Then raids came. People tried, many failed, some stayed on board of the raid team because they either wanted it to complete at least once or had nothing better to do or were tired of old content but did not want to toil around in HoT etc etc
The hardcore raiders probably stayed small in numbers. They knew that they had to either bring in other people/not represent or leave their guilds to form raid guilds and groups. A lucky few managed to pug their way in, but by the nature of raids, that should assumingly be hard. To feed this grinder, people had to have a strong incentive to at least join the attempt to do it and get a good portion of raiding requirements and short fuses in many teams.
So especially raiders should be concerned if casual players don´t want to play anymore with them because that either means they just don´t cut it, don´t have the time, disliked getting barked at for this or that or disliked the pace of the thing.

no, but I have seen raids asking for 30+ insights,
do they really think that if I had 30+ of those… I would be PUGing? obviously I already run with a regular group if I had that many.

Klipso.8653:

no, but I have seen raids asking for 30+ insights,
do they really think that if I had 30+ of those… I would be PUGing? obviously I already run with a regular group if I had that many.

I know hundreds, and yes HUNDREDS of people who pugs raids WEEKLY for full clears, who have 30+ insights.

-those asking how i know hundreds, I am an officer of a no rep, raid LFG guild, we are 99% of the time maxed at 500 people in the guild, and raids and organized all the time in the guild / people picked up.

Leezy.4567:

-those asking how i know hundreds, I am an officer of a no rep, raid LFG guild, we are 99% of the time maxed at 500 people in the guild, and raids and organized all the time in the guild / people picked up.

Want to throw me an invite?

Leezy.4567:

Klipso.8653:

no, but I have seen raids asking for 30+ insights,
do they really think that if I had 30+ of those… I would be PUGing? obviously I already run with a regular group if I had that many.

I know hundreds, and yes HUNDREDS of people who pugs raids WEEKLY for full clears, who have 30+ insights.

-those asking how i know hundreds, I am an officer of a no rep, raid LFG guild, we are 99% of the time maxed at 500 people in the guild, and raids and organized all the time in the guild / people picked up.

lets ignore the fact that being in a guild together means its not a PUG, and lets focus on the fact that you said they do it regularly. my point stands

Klipso.8653:

Leezy.4567:

Klipso.8653:

no, but I have seen raids asking for 30+ insights,
do they really think that if I had 30+ of those… I would be PUGing? obviously I already run with a regular group if I had that many.

I know hundreds, and yes HUNDREDS of people who pugs raids WEEKLY for full clears, who have 30+ insights.

-those asking how i know hundreds, I am an officer of a no rep, raid LFG guild, we are 99% of the time maxed at 500 people in the guild, and raids and organized all the time in the guild / people picked up.

lets ignore the fact that being in a guild together means its not a PUG, and lets focus on the fact that you said they do it regularly. my point stands

But it doesn’t still stand. 500 people pulled from the LFG to make a semi more organized LFG means any groups formed even if all 10 are from the guild are in fact PUGS. Within the guild only 50 people are actually “banded” together and formed a perm group. Everyone else besides those 50 are sure as hell PUGs who raid and organize whenever they want.
You also seem to miss understand that “always part” that was more of a jab at how the guild is maintained to be kept active. Example you can’t be offline for more than a week without notice. Besides a group of 50 no other in the guild is a set group they honestly just put “LFR” in the chat just like. The LFG, as well as when people always suggest new comers to just make their own raids, a guild chat makes that a lot easier to begin said group than purely the LFG

Leezy.4567:

500 people pulled from the LFG to make a semi more organized LFG means any groups formed even if all 10 are from the guild are in fact PUGS.

I think you need to go look up how the word PUG is used, because this sure as hell ain’kitten "Semi-organized guild’ is not a bloody PUG.

PUG= Pick Up Group

This means 10 random people you just picked up and did a raid with. Not 10 guild members, not 10 NEW guild members, and not 10 ‘semi-organized’ guild members. 10 strangers with no ties is a PUG group. When people say “We will pug it”, they are saying they will pick up random people they have no connections with, and do something.

Coulter.2315:

And simulations and DPS meters have given us quite a lot of info on these things, you can’t complain about a meta which chooses things that appear efficient when all the best tools are being used to construct that appearance.

There is nothing wrong with not being 100% accurate. The principles of science are applied here (guess, test, modify guess, repeat), what are you taking issue with?

I think there is something wrong with it not being 100% accurate when we use things like this to define whether or not a portion of the player base is excluded. The principles of science are not always applied. If you look at the math some of these groups come its downright laughable, because they forget to factor certain encounters which changes the variables of that math greatly. Which would change the meta greatly, based on said encounter. You can have a high DPS build that works on stationary bosses. But when you have mobile or high toughness bosses, is that build still meta? The answer is no, because its only effective in certain situations not all, which goes against what M.E.T.A (most effective tactic available) stands for.

Science has nuance, certain players do not. If you don’t factor in the margin for error (in a game that has tons of different encounters) then it isn’t science. I understand that we do not have the best tools we could possibly have, however making definitive statements, is irresponsible. Especially with that knowledge before hand.

But my problem isn’t that so much, as the fact people are now completely rejecting perfectly good builds, because of the lack of information.

Huttunen.8309:

Obviously some of the builds are really situational. Like if you move Gorseval off the lava fonts, staff ele DPS will go down a lot. But if you play well yourself or as a team, you will get closer to the numbers the charts show us. I probably didn’t do the best DPS on my viper necro yesterday who I geared up two days ago, since I wasn’t that familiar with the build yet, but it was enough to kill slothasor without that much problem. In the end it all depends on you if you can dish out the good DPS or not. But the numbers aren’t just illuminati that the top PvE guilds threw at us

Also I actually completed every fractal on a full berserker staff ele including the last laugh-fractals and 90+. Died a few times maybe, but in the end it all came down to dodging on right times, and on teamplay

I know that they aren’t the ‘Illuminati", but they aren’t exactly Einstein or Newton either.

Also i said squishy melee build in cliffside. Staff ele is not a melee build.

Just ask them to put their insights in their inventory and give you their gw2efficency link.

Oh Snapalope.1378:

Just a definition of what a fake is: Someone who bought raid kills/eternal for a lot of money and is trying to pug raids. As you know since they bought kills, they have absolutely no idea how each fight works and proceed to feed deaths over and over to drag the team down. The reason I think people do this is because after buying 1 full clear, they realize multiple kills are needed to complete the armor collection.

I’m just asking because last week I had to kick 3 people who were fakes, and they were easy to spot too. One person even admitted it and said sorry for dragging down the team. Anyways have you guys encountered this too?

Because raids are horrible and keeping stuff like legendary armor behind it causes this situation
GW2 pve should have only been about open world combat and small 5 man instances
Fractals having levels 1 -100 made it cater to every individual, do raids have this?? NO

Marthkus.4615:

Beautiful.

You reap what you sow.

Since you aren’t willing to explain raids people just stay silent.

Consider this retribution for all those Arah runs where I was trying to teach people lupi but they were too scared to ask for help because of people like you guys who refuse to play with people who haven’t already mastered the content or memorized your trite meta lingo.

I and others advertise with specific requirements in our lfgs. Us being suspicious of others lying to us and the frequency of people attempting to hide inexperience is not people being afraid to ask us because we’re “mean” or “trite”. It’s them lying and attempting to hide inexperience so that they can join “good” groups that will carry them. They could easily form their own beginner raid groups, but they refuse.

I saw plenty of “beginner arah” runs back when dungeons were ran. I see plenty of teaching raid runs today. You are being overly dramatic and you are enabling manipulative and selfish behavior.

JVJD.4912:

Oh Snapalope.1378:

Just a definition of what a fake is: Someone who bought raid kills/eternal for a lot of money and is trying to pug raids. As you know since they bought kills, they have absolutely no idea how each fight works and proceed to feed deaths over and over to drag the team down. The reason I think people do this is because after buying 1 full clear, they realize multiple kills are needed to complete the armor collection.

I’m just asking because last week I had to kick 3 people who were fakes, and they were easy to spot too. One person even admitted it and said sorry for dragging down the team. Anyways have you guys encountered this too?

Because raids are horrible and keeping stuff like legendary armor behind it causes this situation
GW2 pve should have only been about open world combat and small 5 man instances
Fractals having levels 1 -100 made it cater to every individual, do raids have this?? NO

Oh boo hoo there’s one thing in PvE that you don’t enjoy? Then act all entitled and whine and see if you get it taken away from the people that do enjoy it!

Crescendo Forte.4821:

I saw plenty of “beginner arah” runs back when dungeons were ran. I see plenty of teaching raid runs today. You are being overly dramatic and you are enabling manipulative and selfish behavior.

Maybe that’s right for NA. In EU there are almost no teaching runs or practice runs for beginners.
I feel bad for all the people without a solid group here. The chance to get into a group via pugging is very little if not to say about 0.

We have had more than half a dozen players leave the raid group after the first wing became a matter of an hour. Simply put – people got bored and went inactive.
What followed were weeks of bringing in new players, teaching them the ropes and obviously many bad attempts and long evenings.
It can be frustrating and tiring, trust me. Having to do this while you remember the weeks you spend where all you needed was about an hour to finish the entire raid.

Don’t want to know how it feels like going through this with every pug you run. How can you blame people for losing their patients with newbie runs?
It is your personal leasure time that you spend doing this. It feels good to help others out and see your newbie friends grow. There is a limit to how much of this you can take until you run out of steam, at least to me.
How would you respond if after many wasted evenings with nothing but terrible runs people even outright lie to you about the requirements you made so clear? Personally, it would kitten me off. We are all just human in the end.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m just asking because last week I had to kick 3 people who were fakes, and they were easy to spot too. One person even admitted it and said sorry for dragging down the team. Anyways have you guys encountered this too?

This is why we need easy mode raids, so that people who aren’t willing or able to do the hard mode raids have someplace to go and work towards their goals without getting in anyone’s way.

In which way would you adjust the overall rewards to justfiy an easy mode for raids?

In which way would you adjust the overall rewards to justfiy an easy mode for raids?

It’s being discussed in other threads around here, but my starting point is roughly 1/3 of the rewards per success, no rewards for failures, same weekly lockout as the current raids (but separate, so you can do both). So basically it would take three times as many weeks to earn anything in easy mode than it would take in hard mode, not to mention the bonus pity-magnetite for failures.

steffen.4317:

thats the reason, why u should ask boss/class specific questions.

for example: u found a rev, tell him he is in the chrono group and ask him what he has to do.

only cause someone has x- insights doesnt mean he is a good player (same to ap)

Lol . I see we’ve officially entered the no noobs; only pro experienced theorycrafting experts need apply- evolution of the raids.

Marthkus.4615:

Beautiful.

You reap what you sow.

Since you aren’t willing to explain raids people just stay silent.

Consider this retribution for all those Arah runs where I was trying to teach people lupi but they were too scared to ask for help because of people like you guys who refuse to play with people who haven’t already mastered the content or memorized your trite meta lingo.

Crescendo Forte.4821:

Marthkus.4615:

Beautiful.

You reap what you sow.

Since you aren’t willing to explain raids people just stay silent.

Consider this retribution for all those Arah runs where I was trying to teach people lupi but they were too scared to ask for help because of people like you guys who refuse to play with people who haven’t already mastered the content or memorized your trite meta lingo.

I and others advertise with specific requirements in our lfgs. Us being suspicious of others lying to us and the frequency of people attempting to hide inexperience is not people being afraid to ask us because we’re “mean” or “trite”. It’s them lying and attempting to hide inexperience so that they can join “good” groups that will carry them. They could easily form their own beginner raid groups, but they refuse.

I saw plenty of “beginner arah” runs back when dungeons were ran. I see plenty of teaching raid runs today. You are being overly dramatic and you are enabling manipulative and selfish behavior.

I’ve seen plenty of them for arah, But I have literally only seen them once for raids. And that group kicked me because i had never seen the abbreviation “PS” before then. I was kicked after asking what it was.

This argument would be acceptable if those things were frequent, but they are not. It’s simply not realistic in LFG. Otherwise people wouldn’t be here saying how hard it is to get into a raid all the time. I don’t deny that some people want to be carried, but i think you are way out of touch if you think that’s the only reason people would do that. And the current state of raids and the raiding community has ‘nothing to do with it’.

As for arah currently. I only see path sellers lately. I joined a random run (first time getting one), and ended up leaving because they did half the bosses while i tried to catch up, and then ignored me when i asked for help on how to get to their location. I’m not saying this is indicative of all runs. However it is currently hard as kitten to get a random squad that will teach you arah in LFG. I don’t see how something that was common back when dungeons were different has kitten all to do with dungeons now. Hell i barely see people running the first wing anymore in LFG