Guild Wars 2

How about instead of begging for changes, you first change yourself and actually do the required effort to succeed, maybe then people will care.

You’re missing the point. People who are bothered are aware of the option to “git gud,” and for whatever their reasons may be, that is not a sufficient response. So asked and answered, find a new response to give.

But as is, you’re an extreme edge case who really doesnt want to raid, as stated by yourself and one who has not put forth any effort to raid and would rather run their own unique build and drag 9 other players down than work as a team player.

Again, I have NO interest in dragging other players down with me, I am a very considerate player and do not want to be a burden to anyone, which is why I don’t raid as much as I might if I were a real jerk about it.

But what I’m asking for is not for the ability to drag others down, that I could already do if I so chose. What I’m looking for is the ability to play how I want without being a significant burden on others, since instead of wasting hours of everyone’s time with failed attempts, all an inadequate build would result in would be 10-20 extra minutes on the content, which would be fine with the other players because the LFG would make clear that this is what we were all looking for, a more casual experience at the cost of efficiency.

Raids are a team activity. If most players would be interested in a team activity, the cry for HoT to be more soloable would have been less vocal.

Expecting open world content to be soloable is a far different thing than expecting a raid to be soloable. Nobody is really looking at a soloable version of the raid, and people who complained about the HoT maps not being soloable might be perfectly willing to do raid content, so long as it fit into their own timeline.

Most people enjoy the path of least resistance, that doesn’t mean you have to support it.

But that would mean that you should support it, right?

No, that actually means the opposite…

But if the majority of people prefer the path of least resistance, then the path of least resistance is exactly what you should give them. It’s like you’re saying “the majority of people like chocolate chip cookies, and that’s why we need to double down on oatmeal raisin!”

First you cheer because a vocal minority got their way, and then you conclude your statements with the hope that another vocal minority won’t get their way, when in fact the number of players that would benefit from the latter would be greater than those that would benefit from the former.

Cite.

Simple math, there’s no reason to believe that hardcore raiders make up the majority of players that engage in PvE instanced content, opening up accessibility of raids would make them more attractive to those players, and nobody would actually be harmed by this occurring, therefore the most likely outcome is that more players would benefit than would be harmed.

Most groups needed 5-10h for VG alone. 3h at Gorseval isn’t that much.

And see, to you that makes perfect sense. That seems a perfectly reasonable amount of time to you, and fair enough that. But to a lot of players, that seems a ridiculous amount of time to make zero actual progress, that seems like a massive waste of time for no real gains. Most people would not see that experience as a reasonable use of their time, and that’s why it would be nice to see changes that would result in those people feel more satisfied with their time.

Because a system that was not designed with elite spezialisations in mind and is not/not easily expandable is comparable with a game mode that should deliver challenging PvE Content.

I was merely pointing out that ANet announcing some grand new feature that they are proud of does not mean that this grand new feature is ideal for the game. They thought that the trail-locking mechanisms they added were the best things since sliced bread, but they landed with a dull thud. They made changes.

I’m not arguing that the current raids do not live up to their marketing hype, they clearly achieved what they set out to do. My contention is that what they set out to do was ultimately misguided, and that some corrections would be necessary to make them play nicely with the rest of the game.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, I have NO interest in dragging other players down with me, I am a very considerate player and do not want to be a burden to anyone, which is why I don’t raid as much as I might if I were a real jerk about it.

But what I’m asking for is not for the ability to drag others down, that I could already do if I so chose. What I’m looking for is the ability to play how I want without being a significant burden on others, since instead of wasting hours of everyone’s time with failed attempts, all an inadequate build would result in would be 10-20 extra minutes on the content, which would be fine with the other players because the LFG would make clear that this is what we were all looking for, a more casual experience at the cost of efficiency.

Raids aren’t casual and aren’t meant to be. Never have been. Yet again it comes down to this PHIW non-sense. Here’s the global solution for you. Start your own group with 9 other like minded people.

It’s already been demonstrated that raids can be low-manned / sub-optimal / people with 60% less DPS and yet you’re still here complaining about a DPS race why ?

In this case it is apt to say, you need to improve as a player if you still think raids are a dps race, both from a gameplay standpoint and from just a pure social standpoint as its just a shame that you really think changing the game to suit you is a valid solution.

Raids aren’t casual and aren’t meant to be. Never have been.

Yes, welcome to page one. Now, how can we go about fixing that?

Here’s the global solution for you. Start your own group with 9 other like minded people.

But the problem is, if I do that, it won’t work out. We’ll spend hours attempting the raids and never get anywhere, which is not what any of us would be looking for. What we’d need would be for the conditions of the encounter to change, so that this casual group could form AND have a reasonable chance of success within a a short amount of time.

It’s already been demonstrated that raids can be low-manned / sub-optimal / people with 60% less DPS and yet you’re still here complaining about a DPS race why ?

Because however much you highlight edgecase examples of expert teams, victory is still elusive for some players. Stop talking about what experts can accomplish when they put their minds to it and start talking about how random pugs of inexpert players can clear the encounter on their first night in under an hour, then we can start talking about how nothing needs to be changed.

In this case it is apt to say, you need to improve as a player if you still think raids are a dps race,

No. I could improve as a player, but there’s no reason for me to need to do so if that’s not what I’d like to do. I would prefer that the conditions adapt instead.

both from a gameplay standpoint and from just a pure social standpoint as its just a shame that you really think changing the game to suit you is a valid solution.

And I find it just as sad that you expect the majority of players to adapt their lifestyles to match the desires of a small fringe of the population.

The assumption in the OP is that Raids aren’t accessible enough to all players. The idea, if I understand it correctly, is that the content could be adjusted to make it easier for people who currently feel locked out of the content.

Speaking as someone who has yet to participate in a successful raid, I’m against this. I like that some content is much, much more difficult for us. It inspires me to look to my own gameplay to see how I can improve. I’m pretty sure that I will, eventually, succeed with a guild team (or, at least, with PUGs) and I’m also pretty sure that some people I know won’t be able to finish it any time soon.

But then again, that was the case with dungeons when the game launched: only a few people that I know even tried them out; most folks (I knew) thought them too difficult to bother. And people got better (even without skill improvements or getting ascended gear).

I understand the idea behind democratizing all content — it would definitely be “fair” if everyone was able to participate in all content. At the same time, I prefer another kind of “fair”, in which some content is designed to be more difficult and (some) people have to make an effort to change how they approach it.

Since those views are both personal preferences, I can’t imagine that the folks in this thread will ever come to any sort of agreement about whether it’s important (let alone necessary) to change raids to be “more accessible”.

Ohoni.6057:

Stop talking about what experts can accomplish when they put their minds to it and start talking about how random pugs of inexpert players can clear the encounter on their first night in under an hour, then we can start talking about how nothing needs to be changed.

They can’t because they’re not supposed to. It’s not something that “needs to be changed”, it’s 100% working as intended. There’s plenty of easymode content in the game where you can faceroll your way through on the first try with a random group of people in their random builds and gear. There’s no reason to ruin raids by turning them into another example of that.

Ohoni.6057:

Raids aren’t casual and aren’t meant to be. Never have been.

Yes, welcome to page one. Now, how can we go about fixing that?

Here’s the global solution for you. Start your own group with 9 other like minded people.

But the problem is, if I do that, it won’t work out. We’ll spend hours attempting the raids and never get anywhere, which is not what any of us would be looking for. What we’d need would be for the conditions of the encounter to change, so that this casual group could form AND have a reasonable chance of success within a a short amount of time.

It’s already been demonstrated that raids can be low-manned / sub-optimal / people with 60% less DPS and yet you’re still here complaining about a DPS race why ?

Because however much you highlight edgecase examples of expert teams, victory is still elusive for some players. Stop talking about what experts can accomplish when they put their minds to it and start talking about how random pugs of inexpert players can clear the encounter on their first night in under an hour, then we can start talking about how nothing needs to be changed.

In this case it is apt to say, you need to improve as a player if you still think raids are a dps race,

No. I could improve as a player, but there’s no reason for me to need to do so if that’s not what I’d like to do. I would prefer that the conditions adapt instead.

both from a gameplay standpoint and from just a pure social standpoint as its just a shame that you really think changing the game to suit you is a valid solution.

And I find it just as sad that you expect the majority of players to adapt their lifestyles to match the desires of a small fringe of the population.

Lol.

All this just lol.

Change it to the way i think it should work because…..

Seriously do you even read what you write anymore ?

Raids aren’t casual, aren’t meant to be and asking for that to change is foolhardy.
It should come as no surprise to anyone that Raids are not meant for PHIW, they require you to actually you know work together as a team, make team based sacrifices to achieve victory. If you want to “BE A HERO” there’s the open world for you, it is the exact mode of play you are asking for where in the collective makes up for more than any individual ever will.

It’s also comical that you think people who do these things are somehow expert or pro or whatever the next label you’re going to use for them is when PUGs do exactly what you’re asking. Complete the raid wing in 1-2hrs time. But you’d know that if you actually PuG’d raids and were an honest team player.

TexZero.7910:

Dante.1508:

TexZero.7910:

Dante.1508:

Make them Easier…. Its not Rocket Science.

Or

Make the “Gears” needed for them easier to get..

The don’t need to be easier, and any “Gear” you think you need to get can be purchased on the TP.

Raids are entirely doable in exotic, and have even been completed in Masterwork gear.

So lets make content for the niche community and ignore the rest, sounds viable in the long term… not.

How are they ignoring the rest when there’s been quite a few “PvE” updates to make your gameplay a giant loot pinata again ?

Additionally please explain why having Raids, a mode which requires adequate teamwork and time investment is unhealthy for the game. I fail to see it mostly due to the fact that its the only content piece that has this which makes it a good fit, especially for people who are good at socializing and are good team players.

What PvE updates… If you mean HoT, you’ve got to be kidding right that place is horrible..

Because 99% of the population do not want hardcore teamwork and long term time investment, they just want to enjoy the game at their own pace all the content..

And when they are excluded from content they get angry and leave..

Dante.1508:

What PvE updates… If you mean HoT, you’ve got to be kidding right that place is horrible..

Actually it’s pretty solid after the spring update

Dante.1508:

Because 99% of the population do not want hardcore teamwork and long term time investment, they just want to enjoy the game at their own pace all the content..

Well it’s a good thing that 99% of the content in the game is perfect for them, then.

Dante.1508:

And when they are excluded from content they get angry and leave..

When they can’t do one small thing out of everything the game has to offer?

Speaking as someone who has yet to participate in a successful raid, I’m against this. I like that some content is much, much more difficult for us. It inspires me to look to my own gameplay to see how I can improve.

And that’s totally fair. I’m actually 100% on board with you on this, I don’t think that they should nerf the existing raids, because some people clearly enjoy them. But that doesn’t mean that the existing version does, or should satisfy every player, nor that those players should remain unsatisfied. That’s why I favor having multiple options, the existing version for those who, whatever their reasons, like how the current version works, and another version for those who, whatever their reasons, have issues with the way the current version works.

Let players decide which version they would prefer, and respect their decision, even if it’s different than the one that you would make.

But then again, that was the case with dungeons when the game launched: only a few people that I know even tried them out; most folks (I knew) thought them too difficult to bother. And people got better (even without skill improvements or getting ascended gear).

I’ve heard the dungeon arguments before, and they don’t hold water for me. Yes, people struggled with the dungeons early on, but that is not comparable to the situation with raids. For one thing, there has been powercreep since launch. They added a lot of new abilities, they added Ascended weapons and armor, even six months after launch the players were objectively stronger verses the content than they were at launch. Second, at launch players really were going in well under par. They often had less than full exotic gear or were even underleveled. While existing raid teams may not be maxed out, it’s not like they haven’t had time to do so, so if they aren’t, that isn’t likely to change any time soon. And Third, the entire game was new, early on nobody knew how the basic strategies of their own characters worked, or the basic rules of the game. It took a while for core strategies to develop. I don’t believe that is the case here, I do not believe that teams will be using drastically different strategies six months from now than they use today, because players are already aware of how a GW2 character works.

So really, the implication of “you know, dungeons were considered hard at launch” is that “and raids are considered hard now, but don’t worry, they will become super easy over time,” I just don’t think that second bit will pay out. I don’t think that they will ever become any easier than they are now unless ANet takes specific steps to make them easier, rather than just as a consequence of the players evolving.

Since those views are both personal preferences, I can’t imagine that the folks in this thread will ever come to any sort of agreement about whether it’s important (let alone necessary) to change raids to be “more accessible”.

True, which is why “to each his own” is the best philosophy.

Ohoni.6057:

Stop talking about what experts can accomplish when they put their minds to it and start talking about how random pugs of inexpert players can clear the encounter on their first night in under an hour, then we can start talking about how nothing needs to be changed.

They can’t because they’re not supposed to.

Agreed, so now let’s move past those arguments and on to how it can be fixed to meet that standard.

There’s plenty of easymode content in the game where you can faceroll your way through on the first try with a random group of people in their random builds and gear. There’s no reason to ruin raids by turning them into another example of that.

Also agreed, ideally raids would be left alone for those that enjoy them. But I also think that it’s a good idea to include an option for those looking for something else. Don’t try to suggest any existing content to fill this gap, if that existing content succeeded at filling the gap then people wouldn’t be asking.

Raids aren’t casual, aren’t meant to be and asking for that to change is foolhardy.
It should come as no surprise to anyone that Raids are not meant for PHIW, they require you to actually you know work together as a team, make team based sacrifices to achieve victory.

Fair enough. If that’s the kind of content you want, and the existing raids satisfy those conditions, then that’s great. But it’s clearly not what everyone wants out of raiding, so to make raids enjoyable for those people, there would need to be some alternative version, with a different philosophy.

It’s also comical that you think people who do these things are somehow expert or pro or whatever the next label you’re going to use for them is when PUGs do exactly what you’re asking.

and yet the fact remains that plenty of pugs are struggling with this content. Stop trying to minimize that. The current raids work for you and people who approach them as you do, but they clearly aren’t working for everyone. How can the game adapt to those players, rather than those players adapting to the game? You would insist that those players should have to adapt to the game, but this is an entertainment product, if they would not have fun adapting then there is no reason on this Earth why they should do so.

Dante.1508:

TexZero.7910:

Dante.1508:

TexZero.7910:

Dante.1508:

Make them Easier…. Its not Rocket Science.

Or

Make the “Gears” needed for them easier to get..

The don’t need to be easier, and any “Gear” you think you need to get can be purchased on the TP.

Raids are entirely doable in exotic, and have even been completed in Masterwork gear.

So lets make content for the niche community and ignore the rest, sounds viable in the long term… not.

How are they ignoring the rest when there’s been quite a few “PvE” updates to make your gameplay a giant loot pinata again ?

Additionally please explain why having Raids, a mode which requires adequate teamwork and time investment is unhealthy for the game. I fail to see it mostly due to the fact that its the only content piece that has this which makes it a good fit, especially for people who are good at socializing and are good team players.

What PvE updates… If you mean HoT, you’ve got to be kidding right that place is horrible..

Because 99% of the population do not want hardcore teamwork and long term time investment, they just want to enjoy the game at their own pace all the content..

And when they are excluded from content they get angry and leave..

Then they can do all of that and not raid. I don’t see a problem.
Those same people really put up some loud complaints about not winning 200k from the recent ESL league i see….. May as well all quit since we all aren’t winners in life right ?

Again, not everything is for everyone. If people are going to get so bent out of shape about not doing raids because they refuse to improve as a player, then they never were the target audience and there’s no need to change the mode for that. Instead they should just focus on the other areas of play that exist to them, like fractals, dungeons, open world, hot join pvp, HoT RP sessions in DR pretending to be rich etc…

Ohoni.6057:

and yet the fact remains that plenty of pugs are struggling with this content. Stop trying to minimize that. The current raids work for you and people who approach them as you do, but they clearly aren’t working for everyone. How can the game adapt to those players, rather than those players adapting to the game? You would insist that those players should have to adapt to the game, but this is an entertainment product, if they would not have fun adapting then there is no reason on this Earth why they should do so.

That’s great, people struggling means that the raids are working as intended. You should struggle at first, strive to get better, improve and succeed. That’s kinda how this works. Nothing needs to be fixed with the model, the people who refuse to accept this need to change their attitude on it. As an entertainment product they are doing just fine providing content to most game modes (WvW excluded here) …so i yet again fail to see why any dev needs to take time out of their day to cater to players who want the game to play down to their individual level when Raids are about the Group.

Fermi.2409:

Dante.1508:

What PvE updates… If you mean HoT, you’ve got to be kidding right that place is horrible..

Actually it’s pretty solid after the spring update

Dante.1508:

Because 99% of the population do not want hardcore teamwork and long term time investment, they just want to enjoy the game at their own pace all the content..

Well it’s a good thing that 99% of the content in the game is perfect for them, then.

Dante.1508:

And when they are excluded from content they get angry and leave..

When they can’t do one small thing out of everything the game has to offer?

Look at the populations decreasing then ask that question again.

Ohoni.6057:

You’re missing the point. People who are bothered are aware of the option to “git gud,” and for whatever their reasons may be, that is not a sufficient response. So asked and answered, find a new response to give.

Yeah and if they don’t want to step up their game they decide to whine on the forums until they get what they want?

Again, I have NO interest in dragging other players down with me, I am a very considerate player and do not want to be a burden to anyone, which is why I don’t raid as much as I might if I were a real jerk about it.

But what I’m asking for is not for the ability to drag others down, that I could already do if I so chose. What I’m looking for is the ability to play how I want without being a significant burden on others, since instead of wasting hours of everyone’s time with failed attempts, all an inadequate build would result in would be 10-20 extra minutes on the content, which would be fine with the other players because the LFG would make clear that this is what we were all looking for, a more casual experience at the cost of efficiency.

You can play how you want, just not in a teamoriented, cooperative game mode which is completly fine.

Raids are a team activity. If most players would be interested in a team activity, the cry for HoT to be more soloable would have been less vocal.

Expecting open world content to be soloable is a far different thing than expecting a raid to be soloable. Nobody is really looking at a soloable version of the raid, and people who complained about the HoT maps not being soloable might be perfectly willing to do raid content, so long as it fit into their own timeline.

The difficulty you are asking for could be completed with 1 player and 9 bots. The standard raidgroup takes 1h-1.5h to clear a wing, experienced groups around 30min. Thats already short enough.

But if the majority of people prefer the path of least resistance, then the path of least resistance is exactly what you should give them. It’s like you’re saying “the majority of people like chocolate chip cookies, and that’s why we need to double down on oatmeal raisin!”

Not everything players want is actually good for the game.

Simple math, there’s no reason to believe that hardcore raiders make up the majority of players that engage in PvE instanced content, opening up accessibility of raids would make them more attractive to those players, and nobody would actually be harmed by this occurring, therefore the most likely outcome is that more players would benefit than would be harmed.

If we perform ‘simple math’ on the only data basis we have, the forums, your group of players is basically non-existant in comparison to players who are against an easy mode.

Most groups needed 5-10h for VG alone. 3h at Gorseval isn’t that much.

And see, to you that makes perfect sense. That seems a perfectly reasonable amount of time to you, and fair enough that. But to a lot of players, that seems a ridiculous amount of time to make zero actual progress, that seems like a massive waste of time for no real gains. Most people would not see that experience as a reasonable use of their time, and that’s why it would be nice to see changes that would result in those people feel more satisfied with their time.

People who complete content faster leave faster. Why do people still don’t understand it after 6 years of ‘all content for everyone’ WoW?

I was merely pointing out that ANet announcing some grand new feature that they are proud of does not mean that this grand new feature is ideal for the game. They thought that the trail-locking mechanisms they added were the best things since sliced bread, but they landed with a dull thud. They made changes.

I’m not arguing that the current raids do not live up to their marketing hype, they clearly achieved what they set out to do. My contention is that what they set out to do was ultimately misguided, and that some corrections would be necessary to make them play nicely with the rest of the game.

If elite spezialisations didn’t exist back then, it was completly fine to anouce that feature. There is always a market for some challenging PvE content, yes it is ideal for the game.
So you actually admit that raids are 100% working as intended, how can we fix your complains about something that works fine?

They can’t because they’re not supposed to.

Agreed, so now let’s move past those arguments and on to how it can be fixed to meet that standard.

There is no standard, that PUGs need to beat everything the first try.

Fair enough. If that’s the kind of content you want, and the existing raids satisfy those conditions, then that’s great. But it’s clearly not what everyone wants out of raiding, so to make raids enjoyable for those people, there would need to be some alternative version, with a different philosophy.

That is what raiding is about. Teamoriented, cooperative, challenging PvE content.
If you don’t like this you want anything but raids.

Dante.1508:

Look at the populations decreasing then ask that question again.

Raids aren’t the reason for a declining population. Slow content production outside of raids is the reason.

Ohoni.6057:

They can’t because they’re not supposed to.

Agreed, so now let’s move past those arguments and on to how it can be fixed to meet that standard.

There’s nothing to “fix”. Changing it to meet your arbitrary, ridiculously low standard is a waste of time. It’s working exactly as intended, so there’s no reason to change anything.

They should have an easy mode that has no timer and things deal less damage or whatever, and design them so you can’t wipe like on dungeons or fractals, should still give all the same rewards just in lesser amounts, and maybe separate titles for each mode.

I’m not going to shedule raid night and spend hours getting ready, just want them to be pugable.

Shinzan.2908:

They should have an easy mode that has no timer and things deal less damage or whatever, and design them so you can’t wipe like on dungeons or fractals, should still give all the same rewards just in lesser amounts, and maybe separate titles for each mode.

I’m not going to shedule raid night and spend hours getting ready, just want them to be pugable.

Your wish was fullfilled the first day they were released. Raids are pugable.

That’s great, people struggling means that the raids are working as intended. You should struggle at first, strive to get better, improve and succeed. That’s kinda how this works.

Right, but that philosophy does not work for all players as it seems to work for you, seems to work for the people who designed the raids. So the question is “what to do with those players who don’t identify with that philosophy?”

Ignore them? “Too bad, so sad?” That’s certainly one way to go, but I think it’s hard to justify as the only way, or the best way. I think that if it’s possible to do something that would make those players happy too, why not do that?

so i yet again fail to see why any dev needs to take time out of their day to cater to players who want the game to play down to their individual level when Raids are about the Group.

Because they’re making an entertainment product, and it’s in their best interests to provide the most value to their players, all their players, as they possibly can?

Yeah and if they don’t want to step up their game they decide to whine on the forums until they get what they want?

?

Obviously. That’s how customer feedback works.

You can play how you want, just not in a teamoriented, cooperative game mode which is completly fine.

Right, so clearly the existing raid design is incompatible with the GW2 “Play how you like” philosophy, and those people who are playing the game for that philosophy. And that’s fine, so long as there are complete alternatives, alternatives that are not causing players to miss out on the other aspects of the raid. We agree that the existing raids are incompatible with what we want, the question on the table is, how can we make additional content that would be compatible?

The difficulty you are asking for could be completed with 1 player and 9 bots. The standard raidgroup takes 1h-1.5h to clear a wing, experienced groups around 30min. Thats already short enough.

We aren’t talking about experienced groups though, they are fine, they do not need help. We’re talking about inexperienced players who have no interest in grinding their way towards experience.

Not everything players want is actually good for the game.

Like raids?

If we perform ‘simple math’ on the only data basis we have, the forums, your group of players is basically non-existant in comparison to players who are against an easy mode.

Have you been reading this and the “why are people afraid of raiding” threads? It’s the exact opposite, if you count them up. But then, we’ve already talked about how these forums would be expected to be biased in favor of raiding relative to the ingame population, so that’s even more impressive.

People who complete content faster leave faster. Why do people still don’t understand it after 6 years of ‘all content for everyone’ WoW?

And people who can’t complete content within a timeframe reasonable to them, quit before they complete it. I think that any easier version should take longer to actually complete, so it should retain players for a longer period of time before they leave, but keep in mind that this change is targeted largely at people who have been playing this game for over three years, I don’t think anyone is going anywhere whether they complete raids or not.

So you actually admit that raids are 100% working as intended, why do we need to change a working system?

Because the HoT maps were working 100% as intended when they launched, but “as the developers intended” is not always “as the players enjoy,” and that means that it is in the best interests of the game to adapt the content to what the players want, even if it’s doing exactly what the developers thought was right when they designed it.

They should have an easy mode that has no timer and things deal less damage or whatever, and design them so you can’t wipe like on dungeons or fractals, should still give all the same rewards just in lesser amounts, and maybe separate titles for each mode.

I’m not going to shedule raid night and spend hours getting ready, just want them to be pugable.

Yeah, that sounds fair.

Ohoni.6057:

They should have an easy mode that has no timer and things deal less damage or whatever, and design them so you can’t wipe like on dungeons or fractals, should still give all the same rewards just in lesser amounts, and maybe separate titles for each mode.

I’m not going to shedule raid night and spend hours getting ready, just want them to be pugable.

Yeah, that sounds fair.

Hmm, easy mode why not, if people can learn some raids tricks. But no reward of course, to be fair with actual raider. Or maybe some shards.
But now the fun begin in this thread, as this topic was already discussed in 2 previous topics, and no agreement was made.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s great, people struggling means that the raids are working as intended. You should struggle at first, strive to get better, improve and succeed. That’s kinda how this works.

Right, but that philosophy does not work for all players as it seems to work for you, seems to work for the people who designed the raids. So the question is “what to do with those players who don’t identify with that philosophy?”

Ignore them? “Too bad, so sad?” That’s certainly one way to go, but I think it’s hard to justify as the only way, or the best way. I think that if it’s possible to do something that would make those players happy too, why not do that?

You don’t need to cater towards players that have no interest in the game mode.
You still don’t know anything about the playerbase or what makes them happy. Stop trying to speak for them.

so i yet again fail to see why any dev needs to take time out of their day to cater to players who want the game to play down to their individual level when Raids are about the Group.

Because they’re making an entertainment product, and it’s in their best interests to provide the most value to their players, all their players, as they possibly can?

And we need to destroy the raiding community because a minority that isn’t the target audience and isn’t interestet in the game mode at all wants their rewards?

Yeah and if they don’t want to step up their game they decide to whine on the forums until they get what they want?

?

Obviously. That’s how customer feedback works.

No customer feedback includes normally constructive critism.
You still have to provide a feasable solution without destroying the existing raid community.

You can play how you want, just not in a teamoriented, cooperative game mode which is completly fine.

Right, so clearly the existing raid design is incompatible with the GW2 “Play how you like” philosophy, and those people who are playing the game for that philosophy. And that’s fine, so long as there are complete alternatives, alternatives that are not causing players to miss out on the other aspects of the raid. We agree that the existing raids are incompatible with what we want, the question on the table is, how can we make additional content that would be compatible?

Wait until LS3 so you get your content?
Again, play how you want never extended to anything outside of openworld.

The difficulty you are asking for could be completed with 1 player and 9 bots. The standard raidgroup takes 1h-1.5h to clear a wing, experienced groups around 30min. Thats already short enough.

We aren’t talking about experienced groups though, they are fine, they do not need help. We’re talking about inexperienced players who have no interest in grinding their way towards experience.

We already had the discussion about grind. Grind is not something you don’t enjoy. It is a needed, repetitiv activity to progress. Raids are not needed, you get the same stats for other sources.
Don’t play it if you think it is grind.

Not everything players want is actually good for the game.

Like raids?

You want fun for everybody, your statement against raids is completly the opposite direction as you ignore people who like challenges. You are just selfish, you proved it multiple times the last thread.

If we perform ‘simple math’ on the only data basis we have, the forums, your group of players is basically non-existant in comparison to players who are against an easy mode.

Have you been reading this and the “why are people afraid of raiding” threads? It’s the exact opposite, if you count them up. But then, we’ve already talked about how these forums would be expected to be biased in favor of raiding relative to the ingame population, so that’s even more impressive.

If they were actually interested in an easy mode they would participate in the debate if they already write on the forums. The fact that they don’t do it let’s you safely assume they aren’t interested.

And you know nothing about the playerbase, stop pretending you have any data.

People who complete content faster leave faster. Why do people still don’t understand it after 6 years of ‘all content for everyone’ WoW?

And people who can’t complete content within a timeframe reasonable to them, quit before they complete it. I think that any easier version should take longer to actually complete, so it should retain players for a longer period of time before they leave, but keep in mind that this change is targeted largely at people who have been playing this game for over three years, I don’t think anyone is going anywhere whether they complete raids or not.

Do you even read your writings? One you of your complains is the time investment for the raids and you want an easy mode that takes more time to complete, yeah sounds like a plan.

Raid content = Boss encounters
Rewards = incensitive to repeat the content, not the content itself

This statement shows it again, you have no clue about raids and don’t want to understand it. It is just about rewards.

So you actually admit that raids are 100% working as intended, why do we need to change a working system?

Because the HoT maps were working 100% as intended when they launched, but “as the developers intended” is not always “as the players enjoy,” and that means that it is in the best interests of the game to adapt the content to what the players want, even if it’s doing exactly what the developers thought was right when they designed it.

And you know what the players want with your dataless assumptions? You still only speak for yourself.

They should have an easy mode that has no timer and things deal less damage or whatever, and design them so you can’t wipe like on dungeons or fractals, should still give all the same rewards just in lesser amounts, and maybe separate titles for each mode.

I’m not going to shedule raid night and spend hours getting ready, just want them to be pugable.

Yeah, that sounds fair.

So we can leave it in the current form and end this ‘discussion’? Raids are pugable.

Speaking as someone who has yet to participate in a successful raid, I’m against this. I like that some content is much, much more difficult for us. It inspires me to look to my own gameplay to see how I can improve.

Ohoni.6057:

And that’s totally fair. I’m actually 100% on board with you on this, I don’t think that they should nerf the existing raids, because some people clearly enjoy them.

On the one hand, you say you’re totally on board with this…and then you say…

Ohoni.6057:

But that doesn’t mean that the existing version does, or should satisfy every player, nor that those players should remain unsatisfied. That’s why I favor having multiple options, the existing version for those who, whatever their reasons, like how the current version works, and another version for those who, whatever their reasons, have issues with the way the current version works.

Which, to me, means you aren’t okay with some content being especially difficult. You are okay with version A being difficult, if and only if there’s a version B, which isn’t. I guess I wasn’t clear enough: I’m okay with there being only one version and I’m okay that I might never be able to complete it.

As another example, I can’t do the timed JPs for Wintersday or Halloween. At least, not yet. I lack the motor coordination, the patience to practice, and/or the ability to figure out how to translate someone’s example video into action when it’s my keyboard/mouse. And yet, I think that content is fantastic and I think it’s fine to gate some rewards behind those JPs, even though that locks me out of it (at least, for now).

In addition, this reads to me like you are expecting ANet can, without hurting any other project we want (and many we don’t know we want), “simply” rollout multiple versions of the same content. I don’t see how that’s possible — balance is already difficult enough with just one version. Balancing just one more version can be more than twice as much work, because you don’t want to create a situation in which people farm the easier version to get more rewards more quickly.

tl;dr I think it’s fine that some content in the game is inaccessible to some people, at least until they reevaluate their game play. The vast majority of the game is accessible to the vast majority of players; that is sufficient in my opinion.

Hmm, easy mode why not, if people can learn some raids tricks. But no reward of course, to be fair with actual raider. Or maybe some shards.

Why are you so obsessed with rewards? We’re talking about a mode for people who are not suited for the existing raid, locking them out of the rewards because of that would make the whole thing pointless.

You don’t need to cater towards players that have no interest in the game mode.

Why not? Could you say the same about people who were asking for raids this time last year, that ANet “didn’t need to cater to them” either? I think if there is a need not being met, it’s a good idea to try and meet it.

And we need to destroy the raiding community because a minority that isn’t the target audience and isn’t interestet in the game mode at all wants their rewards?

Nope, leave the raid community alone, this is for those outside that community.

Wait until LS3 so you get your content?
Again, play how you want never extended to anything outside of openworld.

LWs3 is something else entirely. It will come out, and it will be nice (hopefully), but it won’t solve the issue of people who are incompatible with the current raids not being able to engage in the raiding process.

If they were actually interested in an easy mode they would participate in the debate if they already write on the forums. The fact that they don’t do it let’s you safely assume they aren’t interested.

People have been chiming in that they do not like raids because of various barriers to entry, and yet they do enjoy content that lacks those barriers. It stands to reason that if a version of raids also lacked those barriers, those players would engage that type of content as well. For example, if a player says "I don’t want to do raids because it takes a lot of time for very little return (on the assumption that you fail repeatedly before succeeding), and you presented that player with a version that could be completed by first-timers in under an hour, then that player’s issue would be resolved, and he would be more likely to participate.

Do you even read your writings? One you of your complains is the time investment for the raids and you want an easy mode that takes more time to complete, yeah sounds like a plan.

Less time per gameplay session, more repetitions before you’re “finished” with all the content has to offer. That way, it fits into everyone’s schedule, and instead of something that they have to devote several hours in a row over one night to, they can more comfortably spend 30-60 minutes a night, a couple nights a week, over more total weeks, which is more likely to be within their schedule.

Raid content = Boss encounters
Rewards = incensitive to repeat the content, not the content itself

Both are part of the raid system, and you cannot discuss one without the other. This is true of all elements of the game.

So we can leave it in the current form and end this ‘discussion’? Raids are pugable.

. . .

You should probably re-read what he said, I think it flew clean over your head.

Why are you so obsessed with rewards? We’re talking about a mode for people who are not suited for the existing raid, locking them out of the rewards because of that would make the whole thing pointless.

i was just quoting you, quoting someone saying it was fair to have same rewards in easy mode raid than in normal raid. You are the guy obsessed with the raid rewards, we just have to look at your history on the forum. I’m merely someone who disagree with you on this topic, that’s why i’m here.

Which, to me, means you aren’t okay with some content being especially difficult. You are okay with version A being difficult, if and only if there’s a version B, which isn’t. I guess I wasn’t clear enough: I’m okay with there being only one version and I’m okay that I might never be able to complete it.

Right, that’s the point. some content can and should be hard, but not if it blocks anyone out. There can certainly be a difficult A version, but there also definitely should be a more achievable B version. Not everyone enjoys that high challenge factor, so not everyone should be expected to participate in that version. To each his own.

I’m okay with there being only one version and I’m okay that I might never be able to complete it.

And it’s fine that you’re ok with that, but obviously not everyone else is, and those people should be happy too.

In addition, this reads to me like you are expecting ANet can, without hurting any other project we want (and many we don’t know we want), “simply” rollout multiple versions of the same content. I don’t see how that’s possible — balance is already difficult enough with just one version. Balancing just one more version can be more than twice as much work, because you don’t want to create a situation in which people farm the easier version to get more rewards more quickly.

I don’t think it would be terribly difficult to pull off. In terms of difficulty balance, hard mode is way harder to pull off, because they want to get as close to “impossible” as they can manage, without going over, the tolerances are very tight. With easy mode, who cares if they’re off by a bit? The whole point is for it to be fairly easy. People that wanted easy would not be too upset if it were easier than they expected, not like hardcore raiders would be, and they wouldn’t be that upset if it were still too hard, because it’d at least be easier than the current offering. They could then tweak things a bit more afterwards, but ultimately nobody would get that upset over it.

As for reward balance, a big benefit here is the weekly lockouts. With other content, if something is easier but less rewarding per run, you can just farm it over and over to make up the difference. Even if easy mode turned out to be more efficient per run, you could only do one run per week, so if you could do hard mode you’d want to do that too. I think they should definitely err to the side of “far less efficient” though. Either way, hard mode would be the fastest way to earn the target rewards, easy mode the slowest.

i was just quoting you, quoting someone saying it was fair to have same rewards in easy mode raid than in normal raid. You are the guy obsessed with the raid rewards, we just have to look at your history on the forum. I’m merely someone who disagree with you on this topic, that’s why i’m here.

If you say so, but you are the one constantly bringing them up and then shouting “how dare you talk about rewards?!”

Ohoni.6057:

Why are you so obsessed with rewards? We’re talking about a mode for people who are not suited for the existing raid, locking them out of the rewards because of that would make the whole thing pointless.

You are the one obsessed with rewards. You want to make the rewards more accessible, not the content.

You don’t need to cater towards players that have no interest in the game mode.

Why not? Could you say the same about people who were asking for raids this time last year, that ANet “didn’t need to cater to them” either? I think if there is a need not being met, it’s a good idea to try and meet it.

People who asked for raids weren’t interested in the game mode? What?
The need for challenging PvE content is there or nobody would play the raids. The need to dumb down the challenging content is not there, we have plenty of alternatives.

And we need to destroy the raiding community because a minority that isn’t the target audience and isn’t interestet in the game mode at all wants their rewards?

Nope, leave the raid community alone, this is for those outside that community.

You can’t change the system without affecting the community inside the existing system.

Wait until LS3 so you get your content?
Again, play how you want never extended to anything outside of openworld.

LWs3 is something else entirely. It will come out, and it will be nice (hopefully), but it won’t solve the issue of people who are incompatible with the current raids not being able to engage in the raiding process.

They could try to become compatible? Or just accept they won’t see the content or reach the rewards if they have no interest in that kind of content.

If they were actually interested in an easy mode they would participate in the debate if they already write on the forums. The fact that they don’t do it let’s you safely assume they aren’t interested.

People have been chiming in that they do not like raids because of various barriers to entry, and yet they do enjoy content that lacks those barriers. It stands to reason that if a version of raids also lacked those barriers, those players would engage that type of content as well. For example, if a player says "I don’t want to do raids because it takes a lot of time for very little return (on the assumption that you fail repeatedly before succeeding), and you presented that player with a version that could be completed by first-timers in under an hour, then that player’s issue would be resolved, and he would be more likely to participate.

Barriers are almost non-existent if you show up prepared.
We don’t need a version were you can one-shot everything without knowing anything or being prepared at all.

Do you even read your writings? One you of your complains is the time investment for the raids and you want an easy mode that takes more time to complete, yeah sounds like a plan.

Less time per gameplay session, more repetitions before you’re “finished” with all the content has to offer. That way, it fits into everyone’s schedule, and instead of something that they have to devote several hours in a row over one night to, they can more comfortably spend 30-60 minutes a night, a couple nights a week, over more total weeks, which is more likely to be within their schedule.

Raid content = Boss encounters
Rewards = incensitive to repeat the content, not the content itself

Both are part of the raid system, and you cannot discuss one without the other. This is true of all elements of the game.

The content is finished after you killed all bosses. The only reason rewards exists is to motivate people to play it more than once.
Easier bosses = faster content consumption

Of course you need rewards if you want players to play the content more than once.
Thats the inherit problem with your easy mode, either it gets played once without rewards, resulting in wasted developer time, or you are hurting the already existing communities.
If the rewards are better than fractals, player will move from fractals to easy mode raids, hurting the fractal community. Players will move from raids to easy mode raids, hurting the existing raid community. An additional source of ascended equipment will hit the market value of ascended materials which are already declining.

Ohoni.6057:

i was just quoting you, quoting someone saying it was fair to have same rewards in easy mode raid than in normal raid. You are the guy obsessed with the raid rewards, we just have to look at your history on the forum. I’m merely someone who disagree with you on this topic, that’s why i’m here.

If you say so, but you are the one constantly bringing them up and then shouting “how dare you talk about rewards?!”

Really? Are you sure? If I go back to your history I won’t find any post about rewards? Here, you were the first one to quote someone talking about reward, just a few post above.

You are the one obsessed with rewards. You want to make the rewards more accessible, not the content.

No, as I’ve told you repeatedly and you keep repeatedly ignoring, I want to make both more accessible. You just keep focusing on the rewards only, I think because you believe that’s a less worthy motivation or something. It’s kind of tiresome though.

You can’t change the system without affecting the community inside the existing system.

But it wouldn’t be changing the system, it would be adding onto it. It would be adding on the easier version for those that don’t already enjoy the harder one.

They could try to become compatible? Or just accept they won’t see the content or reach the rewards if they have no interest in that kind of content.

I’m not sure why you think that either of these is an option that would satisfy anyone.

Just so we’re clear, neither would be.

Barriers are almost non-existent if you show up prepared.

If that’s true then “showing up prepared” is apparently significant enough of a barrier. If we can reduce the need for that, then more people can participate.

We don’t need a version were you can one-shot everything without knowing anything or being prepared at all.

No, we do not. But there is a reasonable middleground between that and what currently exists. Most other content in the gamer manages that middleground, so it’s certainly achievable.

The content is finished after you killed all bosses. The only reason rewards exists is to motivate people to play it more than once.

Any players who play just to beat the boss once and then move on are already gone, there’s no satisfying such players. Most see beating the boss as only the first step in the process. It’s like with Drytop, just playing Drytop, even getting T6, is just a step in the process, and most people can do that in a single play session if they hook up with a good map. Collecting enough geodes to buy up all the local recipes would be the long game. I don’t see any reason to indulge you on your notion that just beating the boss once is a plausible endgame for players, and if they managed it on Easy mode they would be completely done with raiding and move on. It’s just completely out of step with the game and any sort of reality.

Thats the inherit problem with your easy mode, either it gets played once without rewards, resulting in wasted developer time, or you are hurting the already existing communities.
If the rewards are better than fractals, player will move from fractals to easy mode raids, hurting the fractal community. Players will move from raids to easy mode raids, hurting the existing raid community. An additional source of ascended equipment will hit the market value of ascended materials which are already declining.

You could argue the same thing about the current raids draining people from existing Fractals and Dungeons. There are no changes to the game that would have zero impact on other elements, the question is though, “are the players happier?” I don’t think you’ve presented any sort of a case that players, overall, would be less happy to have more options available to them. If they want to do raids more than fractals, that’s their own business.

Really? Are you sure? If I go back to your history I won’t find any post about rewards? Here, you were the first one to quote someone talking about reward, just a few post above.

I respond to it when it’s brought up, but it’s your obsession, not mine.

Ohoni.6057:

No, as I’ve told you repeatedly and you keep repeatedly ignoring, I want to make both more accessible. You just keep focusing on the rewards only, I think because you believe that’s a less worthy motivation or something. It’s kind of tiresome though.

Then you could be fine with a rewardless easy mode and adding the rewards to a different game mode, like WvW. It would make both more accessible and would be more in line with the reward structure overall in the game. But you don’t like that, so the emphasis is clearly on the rewards.

You can’t change the system without affecting the community inside the existing system.

But it wouldn’t be changing the system, it would be adding onto it. It would be adding on the easier version for those that don’t already enjoy the harder one.

An addition is also a change.

I’m not sure why you think that either of these is an option that would satisfy anyone.

Just so we’re clear, neither would be.

Even in this thread are people with no raid boss kills that are happy with the current structure.

If that’s true then “showing up prepared” is apparently significant enough of a barrier. If we can reduce the need for that, then more people can participate.

If that ‘barrier’ is too much, you are clearly not the target audience of a teamoriented game mode. Either change your attitude or expect to be left out.

No, we do not. But there is a reasonable middleground between that and what currently exists. Most other content in the gamer manages that middleground, so it’s certainly achievable.

Dante want a easy mode without any chance to wipe and you approved it. Also you want it on the same difficulty level as the rest, so without any chance to wipe. Thats a one-shot.

Any players who play just to beat the boss once and then move on are already gone, there’s no satisfying such players. Most see beating the boss as only the first step in the process. It’s like with Drytop, just playing Drytop, even getting T6, is just a step in the process, and most people can do that in a single play session if they hook up with a good map. Collecting enough geodes to buy up all the local recipes would be the long game. I don’t see any reason to indulge you on your notion that just beating the boss once is a plausible endgame for players, and if they managed it on Easy mode they would be completely done with raiding and move on. It’s just completely out of step with the game and any sort of reality.

Of course they already exist…
But with the current model they take longer to reach that point, maybe finding something else to do in the game or can’t complete it before reaching the next content patch preventing them from running out of content.

You could argue the same thing about the current raids draining people from existing Fractals and Dungeons. There are no changes to the game that would have zero impact on other elements, the question is though, “are the players happier?” I don’t think you’ve presented any sort of a case that players, overall, would be less happy to have more options available to them. If they want to do raids more than fractals, that’s their own business.

Raid rewards are weekly, not daily like your proposed easy mode. The reward structure affects fractals only minimal and dungeons not at all as the rewards are completly different.

Really? Are you sure? If I go back to your history I won’t find any post about rewards? Here, you were the first one to quote someone talking about reward, just a few post above.

I respond to it when it’s brought up, but it’s your obsession, not mine.

See top.

Then you could be fine with a rewardless easy mode and adding the rewards to a different game mode, like WvW.

Another element of the game yes, WvW, no. At least, not JUST WvW. I mean, WvW can have it, PvP too I assume, but there does still need to be a better way to get them through PvE. My only hard lines on the rewards side are that 1. there needs to be a reasonable alternative PvE method of obtaining them that is not as high a skill/gear check as the current raids, and the 2. if you are going to be introducing an easy mode raid of some kind, that it would likely be the easiest way of implementing that, but certainly not the only way.

But again, the rewards are not the ONLY thing I am caring about here, so it is fair for you to say “you care about the rewards,” that is true. It is not fair for you to say "you only care about the rewards, as you and Hyp often do, because that is a lie and you know it to be a lie because we’ve discussed this before.

Also, just to be clear, I would not be fine with a completely rewardless easy mode raid. I mean, I would play it through, I just think that would be a huge waste of everyone’s time since almost nobody would rerun it. If they spend the time and effort to make it, then they would presumably want people to replay it a fair amount, and for that it would need some generic loot comparable to existing dungeons and Fractals, but it wouldn’t absolutely need anything unique, so long as those are covered elsewhere.

You can’t change the system without affecting the community inside the existing system.

But it wouldn’t be changing the system, it would be adding onto it. It would be adding on the easier version for those that don’t already enjoy the harder one.

An addition is also a change.

I think you got a bit lost. You said it would be a change to the existing raid. It would not, it would be a supplement to it. It’s like if a family has one car, and then buys another car, you don’t say that their first car has changed in any way, even if the result is that they drive it a bit less. Basically, nothing would change about the current raid, and anyone who genuinely enjoys the current raid can keep right on enjoy it. Now, if anyone would enjoy the easy mode more, they could shift over to it, and that’s great, we’re ALL happy for such people because now they are more happy than they were. I’m sure none of us would be the sort of jerks who would be upset about that because it might take longer to find a full raiding party when you’re no longer able to press-gang in people who might not particularly want to be there in the first place.

Even in this thread are people with no raid boss kills that are happy with the current structure.

Yes, and also people who are not. The exception doesn’t prove the rule. The point is, you said “They could try to become compatible? Or just accept they won’t see the content or reach the rewards if they have no interest in that kind of content.” This would not solve it for anyone, including Illconcieved, because Illconcieved apparently has no problem with it in the first place. He’s on your side and that’s fine. People who are content with the current situation can remain content with it, the question is what to do about those not currently content with it, and in their case, “git gud or go home” is just not a solution that will satisfy any of them. They are aware those “solutions” exist, and are expressing their discontent because they find them unsatisfactory.

If that ‘barrier’ is too much, you are clearly not the target audience of a teamoriented game mode. Either change your attitude or expect to be left out.

We agreed on that last page. I am not the target audience of the existing raid and never will be. They seem to have that target audience covered. Now we’re moving on to something else, the version of the raid that is for a different target audience, the sort of players who play the rest of the game and have done for years, that want “show up, have fun, leave happy” balancing. Basically, any time you tell me “then this content is not for you” is you missing the point of the entire conversation.

Dante want a easy mode without any chance to wipe and you approved it. Also you want it on the same difficulty level as the rest, so without any chance to wipe. Thats a one-shot.

I think you mean Shinzan, not Dante. Maybe this is why you seem to think that so few people are on the opposing side, you just blur together anyone who disagrees with you. Anyway, his idea is not my idea, but I’d personally be fine with it if that’s what they ended up with. You’re aware that personally I would prefer that they leave in the potential to wipe, just as you can potentially wipe in existing dungeons, but I do think that the odds of it should be greatly reduced. And no, you’re misusing the term “one-shot,” a “one-shot” boss would be you run up, press 1 once, and it’s dead. Actually having to play out the mechanics over a ~ten minute period would not be “one-shotting” anything.

Of course they already exist…
But with the current model they take longer to reach that point, maybe finding something else to do in the game or can’t complete it before reaching the next content patch preventing them from running out of content.

I really don’t think that they do. I’m getting serious Sasquatch vibes on this one.

Seriously, can we get a raise of hands here, can anyone here honestly say that if they could just beat the easy mode version of the boss once, for no real unique rewards or anything, still the hard mode boss out there, still the various raid-exclusive rewards to chase, still various achievements and other elements, that after beating the easy mode boss once, you would just walk away and never fight that boss in any form ever again?

Anyone?

Raid rewards are weekly, not daily like your proposed easy mode. The reward structure affects fractals only minimal and dungeons not at all as the rewards are completly different.

True, but at the end of the day, so long as people are having fun, everything’s worked out and it really doesn’t matter which activity they are having fun in.

I respond to it when it’s brought up, but it’s your obsession, not mine.

See top.

Which top? The top of this post where you directly questioned me about rewards and I responded to you, as I said I would? Again, you ask, I’ll answer, but you are the ones obsessively focusing on the rewards. I only view them as a part of the mode as a whole, not as the sole focus you insist it to be.

Ohoni.6057:

Another element of the game yes, WvW, no. At least, not JUST WvW. I mean, WvW can have it, PvP too I assume, but there does still need to be a better way to get them through PvE. My only hard lines on the rewards side are that 1. there needs to be a reasonable alternative PvE method of obtaining them that is not as high a skill/gear check as the current raids, and the 2. if you are going to be introducing an easy mode raid of some kind, that it would likely be the easiest way of implementing that, but certainly not the only way.

My text was longer.
I said WvW, so it is more in line with the reward structure overall in the game. There is not a single reward that can be obtained with two paths in the same game mode.

It would be not the easiest way to implement it into an easy mode especially the armor. It would be the hardest way to add a different path. You want it to take longer to complete the rewards.

We don’t know how many legendary insights are needed during the crafting process, they drop with 100% in every boss chest. Do you want to split it into smaller items that combine into a insight if you get enough, adding a new source for bugs or a random chance to get them? If you split it, how many for one insight? If you reduce the chance, how high for a reasonable speed? A chance also adds a new level of frustration to it.

Ectoplasmic Residues (10 are needed) is the only random item in the entire collection so far. How low should the chance be without frustration but longer time than the actual raid?

Spirit Thread drops with 100% from Gorseval, you need 5 of them. Another random chance and more frustration? Or the same speed as normal raid?

Every other item drops with 100% or can be completed within the first run. Random chance or same speed as normal raid, which goes against your idea of a slower progess?

There are also open world drops needed (100% chance), you can’t change them.

If you only alter the legendary insights, the progress speed could be extremly off and frustrating.

Adding it to a different game mode with different requirements is much easier.

But again, the rewards are not the ONLY thing I am caring about here, so it is fair for you to say “you care about the rewards,” that is true. It is not fair for you to say "you only care about the rewards, as you and Hyp often do, because that is a lie and you know it to be a lie because we’ve discussed this before.

Also, just to be clear, I would not be fine with a completely rewardless easy mode raid. I mean, I would play it through, I just think that would be a huge waste of everyone’s time since almost nobody would rerun it. If they spend the time and effort to make it, then they would presumably want people to replay it a fair amount, and for that it would need some generic loot comparable to existing dungeons and Fractals, but it wouldn’t absolutely need anything unique, so long as those are covered elsewhere.

Thats what I said earlier, either you hurt existing communities even in other game modes or it is a waste of developer ressources. There is no point in between, especially for people with low playtime.

I think you got a bit lost. You said it would be a change to the existing raid. It would not, it would be a supplement to it. It’s like if a family has one car, and then buys another car, you don’t say that their first car has changed in any way, even if the result is that they drive it a bit less. Basically, nothing would change about the current raid, and anyone who genuinely enjoys the current raid can keep right on enjoy it. Now, if anyone would enjoy the easy mode more, they could shift over to it, and that’s great, we’re ALL happy for such people because now they are more happy than they were. I’m sure none of us would be the sort of jerks who would be upset about that because it might take longer to find a full raiding party when you’re no longer able to press-gang in people who might not particularly want to be there in the first place.

I said it is a change for the raid system, not the raid itself. They are not the same thing.

Even in this thread are people with no raid boss kills that are happy with the current structure.

Yes, and also people who are not. The exception doesn’t prove the rule. The point is, you said “They could try to become compatible? Or just accept they won’t see the content or reach the rewards if they have no interest in that kind of content.” This would not solve it for anyone, including Illconcieved, because Illconcieved apparently has no problem with it in the first place. He’s on your side and that’s fine. People who are content with the current situation can remain content with it, the question is what to do about those not currently content with it, and in their case, “git gud or go home” is just not a solution that will satisfy any of them. They are aware those “solutions” exist, and are expressing their discontent because they find them unsatisfactory.

You said, nobody could be satisfied with the actual solution and we proved you wrong in this thread.

If that ‘barrier’ is too much, you are clearly not the target audience of a teamoriented game mode. Either change your attitude or expect to be left out.

We agreed on that last page. I am not the target audience of the existing raid and never will be. They seem to have that target audience covered. Now we’re moving on to something else, the version of the raid that is for a different target audience, the sort of players who play the rest of the game and have done for years, that want “show up, have fun, leave happy” balancing. Basically, any time you tell me “then this content is not for you” is you missing the point of the entire conversation.

You are not the target audience for raids in general.
Raids are not only definied through the party size. Your easy mode is missing the vital parts of team orientation and preperation.

I think you mean Shinzan, not Dante. Maybe this is why you seem to think that so few people are on the opposing side, you just blur together anyone who disagrees with you. Anyway, his idea is not my idea, but I’d personally be fine with it if that’s what they ended up with. You’re aware that personally I would prefer that they leave in the potential to wipe, just as you can potentially wipe in existing dungeons, but I do think that the odds of it should be greatly reduced. And no, you’re misusing the term “one-shot,” a “one-shot” boss would be you run up, press 1 once, and it’s dead. Actually having to play out the mechanics over a ~ten minute period would not be “one-shotting” anything.

Yeah i got confused there, i meant Shinzan.

A one-shot in PvE is killing a encounter the first try you see it with minimal knowledge.
A one-shot in PvP is getting killed with a single ability.

I really don’t think that they do. I’m getting serious Sasquatch vibes on this one.

Seriously, can we get a raise of hands here, can anyone here honestly say that if they could just beat the easy mode version of the boss once, for no real unique rewards or anything, still the hard mode boss out there, still the various raid-exclusive rewards to chase, still various achievements and other elements, that after beating the easy mode boss once, you would just walk away and never fight that boss in any form ever again?

Anyone?

But thats always the main argument for raid easy modes. People want to experience the content, rewards are secondary to not interesting.
So what do they do after the experienced it? Moving to normal mode? Unlikely for that type of players you are describing because of ‘barriers’. If the rewards are are lesser than other game modes, they move back to them. If they are higher, other game modes start losing people to the point the become unplayable.

GW2 is lacking gear tiers as an additional incentive for other game modes, so one will always the most played as the most profitable if the time/skill investment is similiar to each other unless you offer unique rewards bound to one game mode like legendary armor for the current raids.

True, but at the end of the day, so long as people are having fun, everything’s worked out and it really doesn’t matter which activity they are having fun in.

Reducing the amount of people below a certain threshold in a game mode results in no fun for anybody in this game mode. See dungeons between HoT release and spring patch.
Also the PvP-interface change to remove hot-join from the normal selection.
The playerbase is not large enough to substain it.

Which top? The top of this post where you directly questioned me about rewards and I responded to you, as I said I would? Again, you ask, I’ll answer, but you are the ones obsessively focusing on the rewards. I only view them as a part of the mode as a whole, not as the sole focus you insist it to be.

They are part of the raid, not the easy mode.

My text was longer.
I said WvW, so it is more in line with the reward structure overall in the game. There is not a single reward that can be obtained with two paths in the same game mode.

Sure there are. Legendary Precursors. You can either get them from Precursor Crafting, from Mystic Toileting, or from random drops. Or the TP for that matter. None require you to WvW or PvP.

Basically though, precedent should never be an impediment. They should do this, whether or not they’ve done it in the past.

It would be not the easiest way to implement it into an easy mode especially the armor. It would be the hardest way to add a different path. You want it to take longer to complete the rewards.

We’ve discussed all that to death. It would take longer, that’s all that needs saying.

We don’t know how many legendary insights are needed during the crafting process, they drop with 100% in every boss chest. Do you want to split it into smaller items that combine into a insight if you get enough, adding a new source for bugs or a random chance to get them? If you split it, how many for one insight? If you reduce the chance, how high for a reasonable speed? A chance also adds a new level of frustration to it.

I would split it. The amount of the split would be based on what they think is fair. My starting point was 3:1, but others objected and I’m fairly flexible on that, so long as 1. the number of additional runs needed is not insane, and 2. the total time difference is not insane. The target would be so that people who enjoy hard mode would still see hard mode as the fastest and most efficient path to their armor, while people who enjoy easy mode would feel like it was a reasonable route to the armor as well. Let’s call that number “X” for the following points.

Ectoplasmic Residues (10 are needed) is the only random item in the entire collection so far. How low should the chance be without frustration but longer time than the actual raid?

I’m not a fan of super-low RNG, so I would say leave the current odds, but again split it so you’d need X amount more of them in total to fill the requirement.

Spirit Thread drops with 100% from Gorseval, you need 5 of them. Another random chance and more frustration? Or the same speed as normal raid?

Again, split into “Spirit Fibers” or somesuch

Every other item drops with 100% or can be completed within the first run. Random chance or same speed as normal raid, which goes against your idea of a slower progess?

There are also open world drops needed (100% chance), you can’t change them.

If you only alter the legendary insights, the progress speed could be extremely off and frustrating.

As for the drops where you need to “charge” them and stuff, allow the one item to drop from the open world, but require more attempts of the content to fully charge it.

If it comes down to it though, they don’t absolutely need to make ALL parts take X amount longer to collect, so long as at least some parts do, you would still need to complete the raid X amount of times to complete the actual collection. Like take the PvP Ascension quest, they could make it so that you could buy 90% of the bits you need off a vendor, but so long as even one part of it required you to get to Ruby 3 times, you’d still need to get to Ruby 3 times.

Adding it to a different game mode with different requirements is much easier.

But it would be an entirely different system, and they just canned the team that does stuff like that.

Thats what I said earlier, either you hurt existing communities even in other game modes or it is a waste of developer ressources. There is no point in between, especially for people with low playtime.

But as I said, any change to the game, including adding raids at all, has impacts to other parts of the game. That is unavoidable, but it is NOT a reason to not do things. If adding easy mode raids cuts into Dungeons and Fractals, that is fine, neither Dungeons nor Fractals has any feelings, they don’t care if you don’t play them. Ultimately what matters is whether players are having more fun with the world after the change than before the change, and I fully believe that they would.

You said, nobody could be satisfied with the actual solution and we proved you wrong in this thread.

You pointed to someone who is satisfied with the existing system. What I said is that nobody who is NOT satisfied with the current system would be satisfied by you telling them “They could try to become compatible? Or just accept they won’t see the content or reach the rewards if they have no interest in that kind of content.”

Your comments only work when you’re preaching to the choir, they will win you no converts.

You are not the target audience for raids in general.
Raids are not only definied through the party size. Your easy mode is missing the vital parts of team orientation and preperation.

And again, we TOTALLY agree on this. But easy mode raids are something I could get behind. It is missing the things that you consider vital to raiding, and that’s fine, it’s not targeted at you, you already have the existing raids. But it does contain aspects that I believe those not currently in raids would appreciate, and it is targeted at them, and I believe would serve them well.

You continuing to point out that an easy mode raid is different in many ways from the current raid serves no purpose, it is an obvious fact, and the intent of having them in the first place.

A one-shot in PvE is killing a encounter the first try you see it with minimal knowledge.
A one-shot in PvP is getting killed with a single ability.

Nope. One-shot is the same either way. One button press, one kill, always. The term you’re looking for is “first attempt.”

And yeah, I think a reasonably solid group with basic knowledge of the strategies should have a chance at first attempt on an easy mode boss, but more likely it would take totally new players a couple tries, just not the dozens that are currently likely.

But thats always the main argument for raid easy modes. People want to experience the content, rewards are secondary to not interesting.

I do want to experience the content, that doesn’t mean I only want to experience it once. I mean, if it’s fun, and offered balanced rewards, I’d like to repeat it as I do with various other content in the game. Some might, and that’s fine, to each his own, but I highly doubt that anyone who is waiting for easy mode as their option to complete it once and never touch it again are really the sort that would otherwise put up with the current raids until they beat it.

I mean, I think there are people who might quit after beating hard mode once, because they climbed that mountain, looked around, and had no reason to come back, but easy mode won’t be any great feat, so nobody will really consider beating it any great accomplishment.

If they are higher, other game modes start losing people to the point the become unplayable.

You say this, and yet there are already Fractals, and Dungeons, and plenty of other content, and different players do each of these. Adding Raids into the mix should not kill off any of these. Why aren’t you arguing that Fractals will completely kill off Dungeons?

They are part of the raid, not the easy mode.

They are part of the raid system, not the raid itself. If we’re discussing raids, the rewards are still a part of the discussion. Not the entire discussion, but obviously a part of it.

The problem with raiding in GW2 is that the core raiding system in this game is very poorly designed. More importantly, it is designed counter to every other PVE element of the game – and that comes down to accessibility.

My solution is simply to do away with the enrage timers and replace them with the gold/silver/bronze reward model (in line with the rest of the game) based on how fast you kill.

But, then you get people on the forums who cry “raiding shouldn’t be for everyone” (ridiculous – and, again, counter to everything they have done in game since day one) or "they are super easy in all blues/masterworks/etc now, so there is no need to change (anyone actually raiding realizes the faulty logic at play in that statement).

And, then there is my favorite – but raiding works in other games. Anyone who has actually raided in other games (and I have for more than a decade now) knows that raiding works in other games because the gear treadmill creates an artificial layering of accessibility. The content IS designed for all players (without reducing difficulty) simply because the treadmill will eventually make it less restrictive to their level of play.

Obviously, the treadmill answer cannot (and NEVER SHOULD) be implemented into GW2 raiding, but that does create an issue with regard to accessibility.

First, to all the players saying that all raiding experiences should give the same reward. That is every bit as silly as those saying raiding should be exclusive. It simply doesn’t fit with the design of the game. You put in more work or effort, your reward should reflect that. That is pervasive through every part of the current game and it should be the same in raids.

To the other side, again, however, that doesn’t mean that raiding cannot be designed with a wider audience in mind (just as they do in every other MMO out there).

To add to my idea of gold/silver/bronze, the reason I think it would work is directly related to build/profession/skill diversity (the biggest issue with forming raid groups with friends now). It would make raids more accessible to players in a wider range of gear or playstyles (which, no matter what ANYONE says, is a good thing). Just as importantly, it would do so without taking away the difficult experience or slightly different reward of those putting in more effort.

I know there are people who will still try to find a way to argue that “raids are mine – not yours” or “it’s easy enough. learn to play” but these arguments do not change the fact that GW2 raiding, in its current state, is designed counter to every other part of this game – and that is a problem they need to fix soon.

Ohoni.6057:

Sure there are. Legendary Precursors. You can either get them from Precursor Crafting, from Mystic Toileting, or from random drops. Or the TP for that matter. None require you to WvW or PvP.

Good luck dropping or buying any new precursor.

Ohoni.6057:

None require you to WvW or PvP.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wings_of_Ascension

This whole point of accessibility is pointless. It is supposed to be difficult content that requires strategy and team work. In every game on the planet that requires strategy, optimal systems will emerge and people will demand those optimal configuration , especially when you first learn the game. Meaning that you will need to take the time to get good at them.

Its like complaining that chess is problematic because has typical opening strategies that work better than others and that you should be able to play as you want and not follow the optimal strategies and still win.

If it is a game and is reasonably difficult and has rules optimal configurations will emerge ALWAYS and you will be playing it wrong if you do not follow them without having a better counter-proposal. The idea of ¨play as you want¨ freedom in this case does not exist unless you make them pushovers, basically canceling the whole point.

Also the comparison to other games is ridiculous. Compared to other games raiding in GW2 is already more accessible as shown by stats Anet themselves gave, exactly because of the lack of a gear treadmill. Everyone can access them as long as they know the optimal builds and play them with reasonable skill.

Turin.6921:

This whole point of accessibility is pointless. It is supposed to be difficult content that requires strategy and team work. In every game on the planet that requires strategy, optimal systems will emerge and people will demand those optimal configuration , especially when you first learn the game.

Its like complaining that chess is problematic because has typical opening strategies that work better than others and that you should be able do play as you want and not follow the optimal strategies and still win.

If it is a game and is reasonably difficult and has rules optimal configurations will emerge ALWAYS and you will be playing it wrong if you do not follow them without having a better counter-proposal. The idea of ¨play as you want¨ freedom in this case does not exist unless you make them pushovers, basically canceling the whole point.

Also the comparison to other games is ridiculous. Compared to other games raiding in GW2 is already more accessible as shown by stats Anet themselves gave, exactly because of the lack of a gear treadmill. Everyone can access them as long as knows the optimal builds and plays them with reasonable skill.

Yes, GW2 is more accessible and fun due to the lack of a treadmill – which makes it ironic that the same mechanic has actually had the opposite effect on raiding (making it less accessible).

The problem is the devs carbon copied raiding from other games without taking this into account and implementing a GW2 solution or mechanic to address the issue (such as the tiered reward based on time of kill I posit).

That is EXACTLY why I say that raiding was poorly implemented and not fully thought out in GW2. I do hate comparisons to other games, but in this situation, because they adhered so closely to the raiding philosophy from those games (raiding = hardest content), I think it is a needed comparison.

All MMOs other than GW2 take accessibility into consideration in their core raid system design. It is ironic (and sad) that the one MMO that is typically the most accessible (GW2) forgets to add this important (regardless of what the more elitist players want to believe) element.

Seeing Ohoni’s posted in this thread has instantly made me ignore most posts (sorry).

I was going to post and say that I’ve been saying for a while that a ‘training’ mode for raids would be great – no enrage timer, nerfed rewards compared to the version we have now. That way people could still (slowly) earn their ascended trinkets and stuff while learning the mechanics of the raid bosses so they can then progress to the current raid version. Giving them the option to earn the ascended trinkets means they will be better geared to take on the raid proper. I’d even go as far as to say that Magnetite Shards should be the only reward given from that version of the raid.
This is coming from someone who used to do speed clears in GW1 in elite content (regularly doing 15-17 min FoWs, I might add so there’s some clarification on ability for those who care), not someone who wants all of GW2 to be a glorified Farmville like Central Tyria currently is. All ‘elite’ content in GW1 (UW/FoW/DoA) had a Normal and Hard mode. It made it easy to get used to an area’s layout/mechanics before removing the training wheels and going for rewards. Some people would just play through once in normal mode for the lore, which is another reason some people feel raids in GW2 are gating them from content, not just from rewards. Sort of like how low scale fractals prepare you for high scale ones – by the time you reach those you already know what you’re meant to be doing in terms of mechanics. I see no problem in this approach with raids – it saves the sanctity and prestige for those who are hardcore while allowing those who are less able to learn an option to access the content with less frustration from inexperienced people. Much like how certain rewards in SAB could only come from Trib Mode.

I’ve cleared VG a couple of times, come close on Gors a couple of times too. I don’t pug because I’m too old to put up with hormonal teenage raging and ‘git gud’ being thrown at me when I’m learning. The whole point of learning is to ‘git gud’ and I’d rather see someone be constructive with how I should improve in a way that will actually help me than toss out an overused bad meme for the sole purpose of making their kitten that tiny pixel bigger. Some people learn things faster than others and I honestly don’t get why people should be put down for learning things slower. I guess you must really hate yourself in order to crap on others to make yourself feel better.

My guild is currently restricted in when we can organise runs due to the availability of our leader who’s also in a raid guild. The only time he organises guild raid runs is once a week at 2am my time, meaning I’m usually awake until 5am learning a raid while trying to stay awake. Join a raid specific guild, you say? Well, I’ve yet to see one active in EU timezones on NA and I’d want the guarantee that they’d be willing to train people up for raids, not expect them to know everything offhand. My guild’s raid group is slowly forming past the leader so I know in the future runs will be possible for me, it’s just taking a lot of time which is frustrating because I want to learn and have fun. I don’t want things handed to me on a plate, just better tools so I can work towards things myself. Yes, I know LS3 is coming at an unspecified time in Q3, but that’s further gating for players. Personally I think if Jeweller 500 was a thing with ascended trinkets and accessories being able to be crafted instead of the clusterkitten it is now (which is a pain to explain to new players too), this would be far less of an issue as ascended stats allow that wiggle room for people to be less than perfect with their rotations.

I love Blaeys’ idea as well in all honesty, but I know some people like the enrage timers as they are and feel their removal would detract from the raid’s mechanics. I do wish raids had been implemented Blaeys’ way from the beginning, but I’d rather see a timerless version just for beginners added than upset the existing raid community who would rightly see it as more of a nerf than my suggestion.

Blaeys.3102:

Turin.6921:

This whole point of accessibility is pointless. It is supposed to be difficult content that requires strategy and team work. In every game on the planet that requires strategy, optimal systems will emerge and people will demand those optimal configuration , especially when you first learn the game.

Its like complaining that chess is problematic because has typical opening strategies that work better than others and that you should be able do play as you want and not follow the optimal strategies and still win.

If it is a game and is reasonably difficult and has rules optimal configurations will emerge ALWAYS and you will be playing it wrong if you do not follow them without having a better counter-proposal. The idea of ¨play as you want¨ freedom in this case does not exist unless you make them pushovers, basically canceling the whole point.

Also the comparison to other games is ridiculous. Compared to other games raiding in GW2 is already more accessible as shown by stats Anet themselves gave, exactly because of the lack of a gear treadmill. Everyone can access them as long as knows the optimal builds and plays them with reasonable skill.

Yes, GW2 is more accessible and fun due to the lack of a treadmill – which makes it ironic that the same mechanic has actually had the opposite effect on raiding (making it less accessible).

The problem is the devs carbon copied raiding from other games without taking this into account and implementing a GW2 solution or mechanic to address the issue (such as the tiered reward based on time of kill I posit).

That is EXACTLY why I say that raiding was poorly implemented and not fully thought out in GW2. I do hate comparisons to other games, but in this situation, because they adhered so closely to the raiding philosophy from those games (raiding = hardest content), I think it is a needed comparison.

All MMOs other than GW2 take accessibility into consideration in their core raid system design. It is ironic (and sad) that the one MMO that is typically the most accessible (GW2) forgets to add this important (regardless of what the more elitist players want to believe) element.

You are making no sense absolutely…

Just replace gear treadmill with getting the correct stat combination and learning the boss and you have the absolutely the same result.

You are actually saying that this is less accessible because it has a learning curve instead of a never ending equipment grind?

You are factually wrong…A greater part of the playerbase in GW are raiding compared to other games.

Blaeys.3102:

…

Again the ‘play how you want’-card. That never extended beyond open world.
The first wing got beaten in greens, the timers are a non-issue and there was a run with 10 healing tempests, beating VG in 40 minutes.

The fact that there is no gear threadmill makes the raids more accessible, not less. Once you reach ascended you are good to go for every piece of content that will emerge.
Other games don’t even have raid groups for older raids outside of LFR when a new raid gets released as you can get better equipment without ever setting a foot into the old raid.

People did clear the first wing in green gear, the DPS check IS SUPER EASY, my “Meta group” Kill VG with 4 minutes on the clock, so you don’t need meta gear at all.

harold.3526:

People did clear the first wing in green gear, the DPS check IS SUPER EASY, my “Meta group” Kill VG with 4 minutes on the clock, so you don’t need meta gear at all.

And how long had those people put into raids? Just because a small number of players has elevated themselves to that level, doesn’t mean that players new to raids can instantly do that (or want to). Anyone who’s messed around in similar ways knows that they didn’t pull off novelty or fast runs without knowing the content inside and out first or without being exceptionally well skilled to begin with. The rate at which they learned to do that can vary and I would put money on those being able to clear the raid in sub par gear not having done so on their first time in raids. What you’re saying is that anyone who can clear the raid now is able to do it in greens and we all know that’s not the case. Can you personally do it? If not, don’t judge others by something you can’t personally do and realise that everyone else isn’t you.

I enjoy the challenge and difficulty of raiding. I have no issue putting the time and effort into maximizing my character’s potential.

But, I also see the division and damage this raid model can cause to the game I love. I ask that people put aside the fear that easier modes would somehow damage their experience for just a sec and consider how a more accessible raiding model would add to the overall experience.

Accessibility can be achieved/improved without removing the challenge people (including me) want – and it would only make the overall experience better, give them more incentive to develop future raids and create a friendlier gameplay environment.

Wanting a more robust and inclusive system doesn’t mean I do not want difficult content in the game. In fact (as I have said before), I would love to see the rest of the game include more challenge as well. For example, I would to see what the current raid dev team would do if asked to revamp the swamp fractal (or any other) for level 101 and up. There is no reason 5 player (or even single player) encounters cannot be just a brutal as raid fights.

The goal is big picture – a breadth of experience for as many players as possible. The systems exist in game to make that happen. Not using those systems, imo, is bad design and needs to be addressed.

Bellatrixa.3546:

If not, don’t judge others by something you can’t personally do.

Yes, as i said i can kill VG with 4 minutes left on the clock, i did 6 man VG already, green gear has not that much stat diference actually.

Bellatrixa.3546:

What you’re saying is that anyone who can clear the raid now is able to do it in greens and we all know that’s not the case.

No i did not want to mean that, i did want to mean that if my group does with 4 minutes left on the clock, and they did the kill with green gear, the DPS Check has a large margi, so you don’t need to use meta gear to kill the raid boss.

Raiding was simply a test. It wasn’t meant to be for everyone, it was meant to attract a certain type of player, the type which they failed to keep back at launch. It did attract some of them, but personally, the raiders I know already came and went as they saw no purpose in it because, in short, lol cosmetic raiding.

Mo is all about numbers, which is why SAB was originally cancelled, and more recently, legendaries. In the end, raiding will likely turn out just like dungeons and fractals, so I wouldn’t count on seeing more than 1 per expansion, if even that. Raids could see nerfs after a time, probably just to test the numbers, but don’t count on seeing any changes that’ll make them more expensive to develop, such as an alternative easy mode.

Bellatrixa.3546:

[
And how long had those people put into raids? Just because a small number of players has elevated themselves to that level, doesn’t mean that players new to raids can instantly do that (or want to). Anyone who’s messed around in similar ways knows that they didn’t pull off novelty or fast runs without knowing the content inside and out first or without being exceptionally well skilled to begin with. The rate at which they learned to do that can vary. What you’re saying is that anyone who can clear the raid now is able to do it in greens and we all know that’s not the case. Can you personally do it? If not, don’t judge others by something you can’t personally do.

So what would make you happy. We can clear the raid with 6 players, we can clear it with garbage gear, we can clear it with almost half the time remaining on the timer. That doesn’t prove that average pug can clear it the same way, but it prove that you have a lot of room for error, for less good build or less good rotation.

Like I said to most of the new raider in my group. I rather that you drop your weapons altogether and focus on surviving and complete the mechanics before you even think about your dps. The dps race doesn’t matter, your rotation doesn’t matter. If your group can do all the mechanics and survive you already did 80% of the work. You doesn’t need to be exceptional or spend thousand of hour in the game.

In my raiding group we have parent of 3 kids, we have players that are not that good, we have players that raid once each 2 weeks, we have players that have little idea of what is good or not in their build and they were all able to kill most bosses.

The difficult part of raid is to organize it and to put the effort to master the mechanics.

Turin.6921:

Blaeys.3102:

I enjoy the challenge and difficulty of raiding. I have no issue putting the time and effort into maximizing my character’s potential.

But, I also see the division and damage this raid model can cause to the game I love. I ask that people put aside the fear that easier modes would somehow damage their experience for just a sec and consider how a more accessible raiding model would add to the overall experience.

Accessibility can be achieved/improved without removing the challenge people (including me) want – and it would only make the overall experience better, give them more incentive to develop future raids and create a friendlier gameplay environment.

Wanting a more robust and inclusive system doesn’t mean I do not want difficult content in the game. In fact (as I have said before), I would love to see the rest of the game include more challenge as well. For example, I would to see what the current raid dev team would do if asked to revamp the swamp fractal (or any other) for level 100 and up.

The goal is big picture – a breadth of experience for as many players as possible. The systems exist in game to make that happen. Not using those systems, imo, is bad design and needs to be addressed.

You never really give any argument about accessibility beside that some people cannot be good enough, when the actual stats from Anet show exactly the opposite…

And you even argue that the very thing that make them more accessible (the lack of the treadmill) make it less accessibly. You are making walls of text and you are saying absolutely nothing that has meaning. You are like politician on election day.

With all respect, I don’t think you are actually reading the posts (or I’m not communicating well enough – which is also a possibility).

This is about creating a robust experience for as many players as possible – it isn’t about taking anything away from anyone. That includes skill levels, but it also includes playstyles and even stat choices. And, AGAIN, I am not advocating removing the reward from those who put in the most effort, adhere to the meta and min/max to a degree. I am advocating a wider range of experience to include a wider range of PVE players. That can only be good for the game.

VERY IMPORTANT – we need to try and avoid making this into an argument. Be careful about arguing against the actual poster directly or trying to assign some kind of hidden agenda. Instead, let’s make this a debate. Make your points based on what you want to see in the game and provide counter points against the points I am making rather than against me directly (discuss the points in the post – not the posters themselves). If you go back and read my posts, you will see that I include specific points (including an example of how I think it would work) to back up the accessibility stance.

harold.3526:

No i did not want to mean that, i did want to mean that if my group does with 4 minutes left on the clock, and they did the kill with green gear, the DPS Check has a large margi, so you don’t need to use meta gear to kill the raid boss.

Thaddeus.4891:

So what would make you happy. We can clear the raid with 6 players, we can clear it with garbage gear, we can clear it with almost half the time remaining on the timer. That doesn’t prove that average pug can clear it the same way, but it prove that you have a lot of room for error, for less good build or less good rotation.

Like I said to most of the new raider in my group. I rather that you drop your weapons altogether and focus on surviving and complete the mechanics before you even think about your dps. The dps race doesn’t matter, your rotation doesn’t matter. If your group can do all the mechanics and survive you already did 80% of the work. You doesn’t need to be exceptional or spend thousand of hour in the game.

In my raiding group we have parent of 3 kids, we have players that are not that good, we have players that raid once each 2 weeks, we have players that have little idea of what is good or not in their build and they were all able to kill most bosses.

The difficult part of raid is to organize it and to put the effort to master the mechanics.

What you and your groups can do isn’t indicative of all raiders, existing and potentially new though. That was my point. What’s not to like about a way for people to get better gear and better themselves while you still get the same rewards and prestige you do now? My suggestion wouldn’t detract from your raid experience other than a hit to the superiority complex should you have one (not saying you personally do). It would help people gain that experience that you rightly claim they need. Also kids aren’t the best indicator of handicap by a long shot; one of my old guild leaders had 5 kids and yet could run every role in every GW1 speed clear. That’s not typical, that’s being a good player with childcare assistance. What I’m suggesting is an aide in organisation and learning of mechanics that could be stopping players, existing or future, from joining your group in being raid knowledgeable and competent.

When ANet added 8 heroes to GW1, I didn’t complain that people would be able to do content easier than I just had. Because how they were able to complete content had absolutely no affect on me. If anything it increased the ability of some people as they were unable to tackle content they hadn’t before. Those of us who already had become skilled, were able to just pull off more crazy stuff. The same would be true of raids if a ‘beginner’ mode were added.

People never get over raids, it’s impressive.

Ohoni.6057:

Raids aren’t casual and aren’t meant to be. Never have been.

Yes, welcome to page one. Now, how can we go about fixing that?

No need to fix something that isn’t broken.

Miellyn.6847:

So we can leave it in the current form and end this ‘discussion’? Raids are pugable.

Maybe we need to work out the definition of pugable here. Like, can I log in now, put up an LFG, just grab the first random people that join, and still have a reasonably good chance of finishing the raid in less than an hour?

Shinzan.2908:

Miellyn.6847:

So we can leave it in the current form and end this ‘discussion’? Raids are pugable.

Maybe we need to work out the definition of pugable here. Like, can I log in now, put up an LFG, just grab the first random people that join, and still have a reasonably good chance of finishing the raid in less than an hour?

Yes off the players are setup for the raids and know the mechanics, pug just means pick up group, it is on the players to be set up and have knowledge of the content they want to play, from the very inception of raids they were designed to be a lot more challenging than any other content in gw2, that inherently means there will be effort needed by players besides PHIW. The “casual” player was never the intended audience for raids so why should raids be catered to them? Raids have been more than a success by all information provided by Anet so why do they have to be changed for a few people that were never intended to be enticed by them?

Bellatrixa.3546:

What you and your groups can do isn’t indicative of all raiders, existing and potentially new though. That was my point. What’s not to like about a way for people to get better gear and better themselves while you still get the same rewards and prestige you do now? My suggestion wouldn’t detract from your raid experience other than a hit to the superiority complex should you have one (not saying you personally do). It would help people gain that experience that you rightly claim they need. Also kids aren’t the best indicator of handicap by a long shot; one of my old guild leaders had 5 kids and yet could run every role in every GW1 speed clear. That’s not typical, that’s being a good player with childcare assistance. What I’m suggesting is an aide in organisation and learning of mechanics that could be stopping players, existing or future, from joining your group in being raid knowledgeable and competent.

When ANet added 8 heroes to GW1, I didn’t complain that people would be able to do content easier than I just had. Because how they were able to complete content had absolutely no affect on me. If anything it increased the ability of some people as they were unable to tackle content they hadn’t before. Those of us who already had become skilled, were able to just pull off more crazy stuff. The same would be true of raids if a ‘beginner’ mode were added.

I’m ok with a easy mode or a training mode for raid. But the problem is that nobody agree on what it would be. For exemple, you are saying that it should be the exact same raid but without an enrage timer and with only Magnetide shard for reward. Well I disagree completly with that idea.

1) If you just gonna remove the enrage timer, then you better off no doing the training mode at all because that wouldn’t change much at all the success rate. I killed all boss multiple time and I can tell you. My groups failed a raid because of the timer only because of Gorseval at launch when the agro was broken and we are new to raid. Outside of that exception, we failed because of the timer maybe 0.05% of the time. Everybody fail because of someone failing a mechanics, or dying. So there is really no reason to make your version of training/easy mode because people complaining now, will still complain. The timer is just an easy and obvious scapegoat for other problems that people have.

2) Giving magnetide shard as a reward for an easy/training mode is terrible. Why? Because shards is one of the biggest source of reward from raid at the moment. It’s probably a mistake tbh. I doudt that anet wanted that, but that’s the situation we are now. You can make about 20 gold per hours just with the magnetide shard if you have a good group. That’s more than all the remaining reward put together. Add to that the fact that you have a cap on shards and then easy/training mode will end up with almost the same reward as normal raid. On top of that, I don’t thin that an easy mode should have access to unique raid skin.

So you see. We both agree that the game would be better off an easy mode raid with nerfed reward. The problem is that nobody agree on what is the good level of difficulty that this easy mode should have. Just remove the timer? Half the hp of boss? Decrease the mechanics? Decrease the damage?

Nobody agree on what the reward should be. Some ask for just a nerf on the rewards. Some don’t want easy mode to have access to the unique skin. Some don’t want them to have access to the legendary armor. Some want them to have legendary armor.

And then you have past experience in other game that put a shadow on the idea. In those game, the poor implementation of easy mode destroyed the normal raid. The reward were good enough in those easy mode that people just didn’t have any incentive to run normal raid and that later just became a niche content that is now even hard to organize by lack of players. And your idea would create exactly that even if that wasn’t your intention, because a lot of player that suggest those idea, doesn’t really have a lot of experience in the current raid, so there is information that they just can’t take into consideration.

And that’s why a lot of raider are firmly against any kind of easy mode. Not because they are kitten. But because they know that they are so many ways this can go wrong and that it can destroy the current raid that they love so much, even if that wasn’t the intention behind the easy mode.