Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

Which, to me, means you aren’t okay with some content being especially difficult. You are okay with version A being difficult, if and only if there’s a version B, which isn’t. I guess I wasn’t clear enough: I’m okay with there being only one version and I’m okay that I might never be able to complete it.

Right, that’s the point. some content can and should be hard, but not if it blocks anyone out.

Nope, I disagree with that entirely. That’s a fundamental disagreement about game design — there’s nothing wrong with your personal preference, but neither is there anything wrong with mine.

You can post as much as you like, as eloquently as conceivable, and you won’t convince me that there’s something wrong with rewarding people for doing something that I can’t. Based on how this thread is going (not to mention other similar threads), I can’t imagine that you’ll be convinced by anything that I write, either.

Does that leave this topic as a classic case of “agree to disagree” ?

First, to all the players saying that all raiding experiences should give the same reward. That is every bit as silly as those saying raiding should be exclusive. It simply doesn’t fit with the design of the game. You put in more work or effort, your reward should reflect that. That is pervasive through every part of the current game and it should be the same in raids.

I don’t think that anyone is saying that the harder version should not reward more, just that it should not reward better. You should be fairly rewarded for your efforts, more effort, more reward, but there should always be the tradeoff that you would be able to put out a LOT of effort over a short period of time (like a fight that requires absolute attention to detail the entire time), or less effort over a longer amount of time (like a boss fight that requires significantly less focus but must be repeated several times to achieve the same reward).

I do not think that easy mode should offer an identical quantity of rewards, but I do think that repeating easy mode several times should be equivalent to beating hard mode once. I do not believe that there should be anything that can never be earned via easy mode, at least not in terms of armor skins (titles, achievements, sure).

Gold/silver/bronze might be one way to do it though, since at least you could go in attempting gold, and rather than walking away with nothing, you at least get bronze and move on.

Good luck dropping or buying any new precursor.

I was talking about the original ones. Miellynn said that there are no rewards that drop through multiple paths within the same content type, Legendary Precursors do. There are plenty of others as well, Ascended gear and trinkets, Exotic gear, all sorts of things.

Ohoni.6057:

None require you to WvW or PvP.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wings_of_Ascension

That’s a backpack, not a weapon. I’m not sure what your point is.

Again the ‘play how you want’-card. That never extended beyond open world.

It’s always been in play. Sure, certain people have chosen to restrict their groups in dungeons or fractals to “only meta builds” so that they can get peak speed runs, but you never actually needed that, you always could still run that content with whatever team showed up, and it might take a little longer but you’d still clear it. Nobody is saying “play it your way and do just as well as any ideal situation,” we’re just saying “play it your way and you’ll still pass it.”

The first wing got beaten in greens, the timers are a non-issue and there was a run with 10 healing tempests, beating VG in 40 minutes.

Again, you keep pointing to what expert teams are capable of, which is completely 100% meaningless to inexpert teams. Start pointing out how well they are doing to make your case, not to what experts can pull off.

The fact that there is no gear threadmill makes the raids more accessible, not less. Once you reach ascended you are good to go for every piece of content that will emerge.

But the point being made was, in WoW, the early raids would essentially be balanced around GW2 yellows. Get orange or pink gear from later content and those early raids would become trivial, allowing players of lower skill to complete them. That won’t be the case in GW2, since the content is balanced for Ascended (even if some players can do without it), and nobody will ever have higher stats than Ascended.

You never really give any argument about accessibility beside that some people cannot be good enough, when the actual stats from Anet show exactly the opposite…

Which stats?

The “casual” player was never the intended audience for raids so why should raids be catered to them?

And the point is that we agree that the casual players are not the target of the current raids, but we would like a raid where the casual players ARE the target, since they make up most of the game’s population.

Nope, I disagree with that entirely. That’s a fundamental disagreement about game design — there’s nothing wrong with your personal preference, but neither is there anything wrong with mine.

Sure, up until you use your preference as a reason to block out my preference, we don’t have an issue. But if you say that I can’t have the content I want because your preference is that it not exist, then I’m afraid we’re in a state of conflict. I say, you can have the content you want, just don’t block me getting the content I want.

I think having a tutorial mode for pug/individual player to run through raid, explain mechanics and can practice over and over again till you feel good enough to join an actual raid will be helpful. Nowadays if you dont have enough kind guildies/friends to drag you through and explain everything to you, the only way you can learn raid is watching videos and guide, but just with knowledge ppl will not be able to perform well the 1st few times they try it, so they get kicked, trashed talked, or fail the raid too many times then get discouraged from doing raid again. I dont think raid is actually hard by any means if given time of practise, but majority of the player base simply is not confident enough to try the raid the first place because it is advertised to target “hardcore” player base, needs “skill” and such… an easy mode with lesser reward like mention in the post above similar to fractal 1-25 aiming to teach new player base is also good.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s a backpack, not a weapon. I’m not sure what your point is.

Its a precursor. Available only through pvp.

Ohoni.6057:

Miellynn said that there are no rewards that drop through multiple paths within the same content type, Legendary Precursors do.

Only old ones.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s a backpack, not a weapon. I’m not sure what your point is.

Its a precursor. Available only through pvp.

Ohoni.6057:

Miellynn said that there are no rewards that drop through multiple paths within the same content type, Legendary Precursors do.

Only old ones.

Right, that was my point the old Legendary Precursors are available via multiple methods, therefore Mielynn’s premise that “no rewards are offered via multiple sources within the same sphere” was false.

Can we be done with that line of discussion now?

Ohoni.6057:

Can we be done with that line of discussion now?

Sure once you’re done begging to change things that don’t need to be changed to cater to your selfish desires of getting Legendary Armor without working for it. That’s caused 2 threads now to be closed because you never have anything better to do but beat a dead horse about how you and a minority of players have no desire to participate in Raids unless Anet crumbles to your whims and turns them into nothing more than Log-In rewards.

Problem with raids and what makes them less accessible is that they are tailored towards big groups that play together already, Their target audience for this are good players who are looking for challenging content, I fall into that category along with my girlfriend but even then we still are kept out because we have no group so we join a raid guild, not once have we done a raid with them, they either do it respond when we ask about doing a raid, fill up the party before asking in guild or just sit around showing off that they beat the raids 10 or more times.

In ff14 they can manage to have a 24 man pug clear raids which requires alot more communication and synchronising whereas gw 2 can’t do it with 10 on a more regular basis.

Atm I have just stopped playing gw2 apart from doing my dailies since I do not have high hopes of raiding on this game and as I have done everything else.

Drakz.7051:

In ff14 they can manage to have a 24 man pug clear raids which requires alot more communication and synchronising whereas gw 2 can’t do it with 10 on a more regular basis.

What? Pugs succeed at raids on a regular basis. Once I finish what I’m working on I’m going to go and do SV myself and expect to see success, just like I usually do.

How to make raids more accessible?

Get rid of the elitist raiding community.
It’s honestly the only way it’s going to happen.

More people would be willing to try and fail if ANet didn’t make the mistake of saying that you needed full ascended gear to participate 6+ months ago.

Now the prejudice has stuck and you can’t set food inside without people gatekeeping because they want their raids to be easy, and simultaneously call you lazy for not having ascended gear.

bravoart.5308:

How to make raids more accessible?

Get rid of the elitist raiding community.
It’s honestly the only way it’s going to happen.

More people would be willing to try and fail if ANet didn’t make the mistake of saying that you needed full ascended gear to participate 6+ months ago.

Now the prejudice has stuck and you can’t set food inside without people gatekeeping because they want their raids to be easy, and simultaneously call you lazy for not having ascended gear.

The PUG community is separate from the actual raiding community most established raiding guilds and groups don’t require ascended. There are quite a few people in the forums that offer to teach new players the raids so that they have a better chance of completing them and getting into other raids, just don’t group with the people asking for so and so requirements and get kittened if they find out you lied.

This game, even before its very launch, has stated the game’s soft trinity is damage, control, and support. If your raid damage is poor, then you deserve to fail. Likewise, if your control is bad you’ll also fail as you also will if your support is bad.

Also: Pay respect to the actual topic of this thread. Stop trying to selfishly derail it with your own agendas, as some of you have done in two other locked threads.

Definitely. This thread is about making the raids more accessible than they already are, so if your position is that they don’t need to be any more accessible, then you aren’t adding anything to the discussion.

If an easier difficulty is ever needed which is highly unlikely due to the room for error already proven with raids I propose this.

Proposed “easy mode” raid idea, these tweaks if used as a separate easy mode would allow people to learn mechanics with less pressure and more room for error, as well as providing them with rewards.

Increase enrage timers by 2 minute on all bosses,

VG
Reduce amount of people needed for Green circles to two

Reduce the amount of Seekers spawned

Gorsival

Reduce the amount of Orbs

Have fewer enraged spirits on updraft phases

Sabbatha

I’m not sure what to tweak this boss is almost purely mechanic based possibly reduce the amount of Flak, and reduce the red bombs.

Second wing I have only done Slothazor so I will only provide suggestions for his fight for wing 2.

Reduce the amount of Slubs and amount of Mushrooms consumed to clear path.

With these Tweaks for an easier mode provide 3/4 the amount of Magnetite shards rewarded for phased wipes, 1/2 as many for boss clears, keep ascended item drops both generic and special skins as they are for both modes, have legendary Insights as completion rewards, remove Legendary armor ingredients like Spirit Silk, and other Boss specific ingredients.

Ohoni.6057:

Definitely. This thread is about making the raids more accessible than they already are, so if your position is that they don’t need to be any more accessible, then you aren’t adding anything to the discussion.

Accessibility is not the ability to kill any boss or clear the raid. It is determined by the requirements to enter the raid.
Accessibility is completly fine. Everyone with HoT can see the raid.
Killing bosses is something completly different.

PUG requirements are community made, ArenaNet can’t change anything about it.

For anyone genuinely trying the raid and having issues with accessibility, then please be more specific as to what your problems are. Saying, “The raid is inaccessible” does not give any information.

What you might perceive as “DPS” issues might actually be problems with your support, control, or your general strategy.

• Example: Having poor control on Slothasor is going to lower your damage, because it takes 0 damage while sleeping and it also can put the boss in unfavorable positions. A group who interrupts and moves him poorly might wipe at 60% on this boss, with 3 minutes remaining. Someone might extrapolate this data incorrectly and come to the conclusion that they need to “increase their DPS” when in reality they just need to fix their strategy and their control.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

If an easier difficulty is ever needed which is highly unlikely due to the room for error already proven with raids I propose this.

Proposed “easy mode” raid idea, these tweaks if used as a separate easy mode would allow people to learn mechanics with less pressure and more room for error, as well as providing them with rewards.

Increase enrage timers by 2 minute on all bosses,

VG
Reduce amount of people needed for Green circles to two

Reduce the amount of Seekers spawned

Gorsival

Reduce the amount of Orbs

Have fewer enraged spirits on updraft phases

Sabbatha

I’m not sure what to tweak this boss is almost purely mechanic based possibly reduce the amount of Flak, and reduce the red bombs.

Second wing I have only done Slothazor so I will only provide suggestions for his fight for wing 2.

Reduce the amount of Slubs and amount of Mushrooms consumed to clear path.

With these Tweaks for an easier mode provide 3/4 the amount of Magnetite shards rewarded for phased wipes, 1/2 as many for boss clears, keep ascended item drops both generic and special skins as they are for both modes, have legendary Insights as completion rewards, remove Legendary armor ingredients like Spirit Silk, and other Boss specific ingredients.

Interesting post, most realistic proposal than some others, if an easy mode should be made. I don’t agree with all, but at least there is room for discussion.

The wipe mechanisms are still there, so people can still learn something. But I’m sure some other will disagree with you just for this very idea.

For the reward, I’m not against some shards, but I think the cap should be lower than the normal mode (40 or 50 for example). Titles and succès should stay exclusive.
And I’m not sure about the insights things too. But at least keeping key component of Legendary Armor in normal raid would motivate people.

Hypairion.9210:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

If an easier difficulty is ever needed which is highly unlikely due to the room for error already proven with raids I propose this.

Proposed “easy mode” raid idea, these tweaks if used as a separate easy mode would allow people to learn mechanics with less pressure and more room for error, as well as providing them with rewards.

Increase enrage timers by 2 minute on all bosses,

VG
Reduce amount of people needed for Green circles to two

Reduce the amount of Seekers spawned

Gorsival

Reduce the amount of Orbs

Have fewer enraged spirits on updraft phases

Sabbatha

I’m not sure what to tweak this boss is almost purely mechanic based possibly reduce the amount of Flak, and reduce the red bombs.

Second wing I have only done Slothazor so I will only provide suggestions for his fight for wing 2.

Reduce the amount of Slubs and amount of Mushrooms consumed to clear path.

With these Tweaks for an easier mode provide 3/4 the amount of Magnetite shards rewarded for phased wipes, 1/2 as many for boss clears, keep ascended item drops both generic and special skins as they are for both modes, have legendary Insights as completion rewards, remove Legendary armor ingredients like Spirit Silk, and other Boss specific ingredients.

Interesting post, most realistic proposal than some others, if an easy mode should be made. I don’t agree with all, but at least there is room for discussion.

The wipe mechanisms are still there, so people can still learn something. But I’m sure some other will disagree with you just for this very idea.

For the reward, I’m not against some shards, but I think the cap should be lower than the normal mode (40 or 50 for example). Titles and succès should stay exclusive.
And I’m not sure about the insights things too. But at least keeping key component of Legendary Armor in normal raid would motivate people.

It was thrown together pretty hastily I will admit I edited twice, the main point of the proposal is to not completely remove any mechanics so as to show the people using it how the raids should operate at a reduced level, the rewards would need a better looking at mostly the currency caps and such while the normal loot drops should be left how they are maybe decreasing the Special boss specific skins drop chance, the insights aren’t a huge issues in my eyes, I left those in the proposal due to most people claiming those cause people to not get picked up in normal raid modes there by increasing accessibility.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Hypairion.9210:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

If an easier difficulty is ever needed which is highly unlikely due to the room for error already proven with raids I propose this.

Proposed “easy mode” raid idea, these tweaks if used as a separate easy mode would allow people to learn mechanics with less pressure and more room for error, as well as providing them with rewards.

Increase enrage timers by 2 minute on all bosses,

VG
Reduce amount of people needed for Green circles to two

Reduce the amount of Seekers spawned

Gorsival

Reduce the amount of Orbs

Have fewer enraged spirits on updraft phases

Sabbatha

I’m not sure what to tweak this boss is almost purely mechanic based possibly reduce the amount of Flak, and reduce the red bombs.

Second wing I have only done Slothazor so I will only provide suggestions for his fight for wing 2.

Reduce the amount of Slubs and amount of Mushrooms consumed to clear path.

With these Tweaks for an easier mode provide 3/4 the amount of Magnetite shards rewarded for phased wipes, 1/2 as many for boss clears, keep ascended item drops both generic and special skins as they are for both modes, have legendary Insights as completion rewards, remove Legendary armor ingredients like Spirit Silk, and other Boss specific ingredients.

Interesting post, most realistic proposal than some others, if an easy mode should be made. I don’t agree with all, but at least there is room for discussion.

The wipe mechanisms are still there, so people can still learn something. But I’m sure some other will disagree with you just for this very idea.

For the reward, I’m not against some shards, but I think the cap should be lower than the normal mode (40 or 50 for example). Titles and succès should stay exclusive.
And I’m not sure about the insights things too. But at least keeping key component of Legendary Armor in normal raid would motivate people.

It was thrown together pretty hastily I will admit I edited twice, the main point of the proposal is to not completely remove any mechanics so as to show the people using it how the raids should operate at a reduced level, the rewards would need a better looking at mostly the currency caps and such while the normal loot drops should be left how they are maybe decreasing the Special boss specific skins drop chance, the insights aren’t a huge issues in my eyes, I left those in the proposal due to most people claiming those cause people to not get picked up in normal raid modes there by increasing accessibility.

Maybe for sabetha make the green bombs last longer. And for the 2 nd wing, it’s more complicated.. Maybe make more cd on the volatile poison. And only normal sublings during the fight.
Yes I figured after that the insight could help people to pug (and then train).

If an easier difficulty is ever needed which is highly unlikely due to the room for error already proven with raids I propose this.

Proposed “easy mode” raid idea, these tweaks if used as a separate easy mode would allow people to learn mechanics with less pressure and more room for error, as well as providing them with rewards.

Increase enrage timers by 2 minute on all bosses,

VG
Reduce amount of people needed for Green circles to two

Reduce the amount of Seekers spawned

Gorsival

Reduce the amount of Orbs

Have fewer enraged spirits on updraft phases

Sabbatha

I’m not sure what to tweak this boss is almost purely mechanic based possibly reduce the amount of Flak, and reduce the red bombs.

Second wing I have only done Slothazor so I will only provide suggestions for his fight for wing 2.

Reduce the amount of Slubs and amount of Mushrooms consumed to clear path.

With these Tweaks for an easier mode provide 3/4 the amount of Magnetite shards rewarded for phased wipes, 1/2 as many for boss clears, keep ascended item drops both generic and special skins as they are for both modes, have legendary Insights as completion rewards, remove Legendary armor ingredients like Spirit Silk, and other Boss specific ingredients.

A mode like this would be better than nothing, but personally I’d prefer the timing and requirements of the mechanics be kept identical, just reduce the damage they deal and the damage necessary from players so that they have more “slack” to them. Basically if you do everything perfectly then the run would be identical to a current raid run, the only difference is that if you screw things up you can continue on to try the next bit.

As for rewards, I don’t think you’d need any rewards for failure, since you aren’t intended to fail much, and less shards than that for winning, but if they don’t provide the ingredients for Legendary armor then those would have to be provided elsewhere.

Remember, while these could be used train for hard mode, they should never fall into the rut that they are meant only for training for hard mode. For many players, this mode would be all they’d ever want or need, and it needs to be fully rewarding in that regard.

For the reward, I’m not against some shards, but I think the cap should be lower than the normal mode (40 or 50 for example).

I think it might be tricky to have a different cap, since it’s a single resource. I think this same result could be achieved just be restricting the reward to boss chest only (no pity shards) and daily/weekly lockouts on each boss, so while in theory you could hit the current cap on easy mode alone, in practice you could only kill each boss once and doing so would earn you way under the cap.

Maybe for sabetha make the green bombs last longer. And for the 2 nd wing, it’s more complicated.. Maybe make more cd on the volatile poison. And only normal sublings during the fight.
Yes I figured after that the insight could help people to pug (and then train).

The thing is, you don’t have to make those mechanics easier to land, just make them less stressful by reducing the cost of failure. If players are not stressed out about avoiding every single thing at once, while also dealing the max damage they possibly can, then they can focus on one specific element at a time and practice it until it’s second nature. If you cheat the timing on them or something like that, then whatever muscle memory they establish in easy mode would become worthless in hard mode where the timing is different.

Ohoni.6057:

A mode like this would be better than nothing, but personally I’d prefer the timing and requirements of the mechanics be kept identical, just reduce the damage they deal and the damage necessary from players so that they have more “slack” to them. Basically if you do everything perfectly then the run would be identical to a current raid run, the only difference is that if you screw things up you can continue on to try the next bit.

As for rewards, I don’t think you’d need any rewards for failure, since you aren’t intended to fail much, and less shards than that for winning, but if they don’t provide the ingredients for Legendary armor then those would have to be provided elsewhere.

Remember, while these could be used train for hard mode, they should never fall into the rut that they are meant only for training for hard mode. For many players, this mode would be all they’d ever want or need, and it needs to be fully rewarding in that regard.

That way it is useless as a training mode.
The green circle explosion deals damage equal to 90% maximum health. Reduce it to maybe ~60-70% and you can completly ignore it if you take a full healing druid and a tempest throwing a water overload in between. All cooldowns will be up when the next circle spawns.
Reduce the amount of people you need and people still can slack if you assign the same amount you would normally need, but suffer the same consequenses.

For the reward, I’m not against some shards, but I think the cap should be lower than the normal mode (40 or 50 for example).

I think it might be tricky to have a different cap, since it’s a single resource. I think this same result could be achieved just be restricting the reward to boss chest only (no pity shards) and daily/weekly lockouts on each boss, so while in theory you could hit the current cap on easy mode alone, in practice you could only kill each boss once and doing so would earn you way under the cap.

Maybe for sabetha make the green bombs last longer. And for the 2 nd wing, it’s more complicated.. Maybe make more cd on the volatile poison. And only normal sublings during the fight.
Yes I figured after that the insight could help people to pug (and then train).

The thing is, you don’t have to make those mechanics easier to land, just make them less stressful by reducing the cost of failure. If players are not stressed out about avoiding every single thing at once, while also dealing the max damage they possibly can, then they can focus on one specific element at a time and practice it until it’s second nature. If you cheat the timing on them or something like that, then whatever muscle memory they establish in easy mode would become worthless in hard mode where the timing is different.

It’s the same with reduced damage. See the green circle at Vale Guardian, if you can ignore it people will do it and continue to do so in normal mode.
For sabetha it could be enough to reduce the debuff timer, so you don’t need a backup is you fail to hit the green bomb the first time.

Matthias is in the same boat as Sabetha, it’s a pure mechanic based fight without any time pressure. The only options would be increasing the time limit for the sacrifice, increase the time to drop the well in the fire phase and don’t increase the tornados and rain clouds in phase 4.

The Bandit Trio doesn’t need any changes.

That way it is useless as a training mode.
The green circle explosion deals damage equal to 90% maximum health. Reduce it to maybe ~60-70% and you can completly ignore it if you take a full healing druid and a tempest throwing a water overload in between. All cooldowns will be up when the next circle spawns.

Again,

training is only as useful as you make it.

If you engage in light sparing, where the hits will not knock you out, and you treat it like a game and “take” dozens of hits to the head without caring, then you will learn nothing.

If you engage in light sparing, where the hits will not knock you out, but you take it seriously and avoid as many of those hits as you can, then you will most definitely learn how to better and better avoid those shots.

If you engage in full contact sparring, where every mistake leaves you staggering on your feet if not completely KOed, then you might take it even more seriously, but you also spend a lot less time practicing the skills and a lot more time recovering.

Again,

training is only as useful as you make it.

Ohoni.6057:

That way it is useless as a training mode.
The green circle explosion deals damage equal to 90% maximum health. Reduce it to maybe ~60-70% and you can completly ignore it if you take a full healing druid and a tempest throwing a water overload in between. All cooldowns will be up when the next circle spawns.

Again,

training is only as useful as you make it.

If you engage in light sparing, where the hits will not knock you out, and you treat it like a game and “take” dozens of hits to the head without caring, then you will learn nothing.

If you engage in light sparing, where the hits will not knock you out, but you take it seriously and avoid as many of those hits as you can, then you will most definitely learn how to better and better avoid those shots.

If you engage in full contact sparring, where every mistake leaves you staggering on your feet if not completely KOed, then you might take it even more seriously, but you also spend a lot less time practicing the skills and a lot more time recovering.

Again,

training is only as useful as you make it.

You can already heal through it, if the group is prepared.
We are still talking about PUGs. Organised groups don’t need a training mode for new players. They already train them in normal mode.
PUGs will use the path of least resistance. People not running towards the circle means more DPS.
More DPS -> shorter boss fight -> less time for errors/shorter clear times
If you would try to learn the fight with a PUG in that mode, you would learn nothing valuable. Instead you would get likely flamed for doing mechanics that aren’t neccesary.

You can already heal through it, if the group is prepared.
We are still talking about PUGs. Organised groups don’t need a training mode for new players. They already train them in normal mode.
PUGs will use the path of least resistance. People not running towards the circle means more DPS. More DPS → shorter boss fight → less time for errors/shorter clear times
If you would try to learn the fight with a PUG in that mode, you would learn nothing valuable. Instead you would get likely flamed for doing mechanics that aren’ neccesary.

Again,

training is only as useful as you make it.

Ohoni.6057:

You can already heal through it, if the group is prepared.
We are still talking about PUGs. Organised groups don’t need a training mode for new players. They already train them in normal mode.
PUGs will use the path of least resistance. People not running towards the circle means more DPS. More DPS -> shorter boss fight -> less time for errors/shorter clear times
If you would try to learn the fight with a PUG in that mode, you would learn nothing valuable. Instead you would get likely flamed for doing mechanics that aren’ neccesary.

Again,

training is only as useful as you make it.

Yeah and but you have to weight all consequenses before introducing things. Something that you don’t want to acknowledge even after 30 pages of discussion. You only see your point and not the consequenses the introduction might have.

The main complain is the accessibility with PUGs. PUGs are also the biggest source of toxicity in the raiding enviroment, not organised groups.

Introducing a mode that lets you ignore mechanics won’t help anyone who wants to learn the encounters correctly as long as he tries it in this mode with a PUG. If he finds a organised group he won’t need that mode at all.

It may help you and your guild, but it gets worse for the majority of the players you want to speak for.

You need to tweak the mechanics so they are easier to handle while maintaining the threat.

Drakz.7051:

we have no group so we join a raid guild, not once have we done a raid with them, they either do it respond when we ask about doing a raid, fill up the party before asking in guild or just sit around showing off that they beat the raids 10 or more times.

Join a different guild.

Atm I have just stopped playing gw2 apart from doing my dailies since I do not have high hopes of raiding on this game and as I have done everything else.

Join a different guild

Think that covers it.

bravoart.5308:

Get rid of the elitist raiding community.

How? And why? There are guilds that just raid together. Guilds that just RP together. Hardcore farming guilds. How would you get rid of them? Surely you’d be better joining them if you want a good raid..

bravoart.5308:

you can’t set food inside without people gatekeeping because they want their raids to be easy, and simultaneously call you lazy for not having ascended gear.

So you are pugging, you are not being dissed by the elite raiders, you are raiding with completely the opposite. You should stop doing that if it offends you.

Of course people want the raid to be easy/smooth. I doubt anyone is calling you lazy, ascended is an expensive time and money sink and not required for most content.
If however every time you try and PUG you find a hostile environment because you don’t have ascended gear then you have a couple of options. Get ascended gear! Stop PUGging Raids!

Join a guild that does training and clearing runs. Make sure you have exotic gear and the recommended metabattle build.

Yeah and but you have to weight all consequenses before introducing things. Something that you don’t want to acknowledge even after 30 pages of discussion. You only see your point and not the consequenses the introduction might have.

Nope. I see and accept all those consequences. All changes have consequences. I just don’t see the consequences as being terribly significant when compared to the gains. Again, if you use the rule that “any negative consequences are reason enough to not do something” then they shouldn’t have made raids in the first place. You seem to believe that the positive aspects of raiding outweigh the consequences, and you may be right about that. I believe that the benefits of a viable easy mode raid would outweigh the consequences, and I may be wrong about it, but so far you’ve done nothing to convince me of that beyond insisting that you don’t like it.

The main complain is the accessibility with PUGs. PUGs are also the biggest source of toxicity in the raiding enviroment, not organised groups.

True, but like it or not, PUGs are also one of the core features of GW2, it’s a very pug-friendly game. The reason why pugs have such toxicity potential with raids is because there is such a high possibility to total failure. If an insufficient player slows you down a bit, the real jerks might pick on them, but most players would just shrug it off. If an insufficient player leads to multiple wipes, the atmosphere tends to get more hostile. Creating an environment in which negative outcomes are less severe is the best way of reducing toxicity.

PUGs will use the path of least resistance. People not running towards the circle means more DPS.
More DPS → shorter boss fight → less time for errors/shorter clear times
If you would try to learn the fight with a PUG in that mode, you would learn nothing valuable. Instead you would get likely flamed for doing mechanics that aren’t neccesary.

Again,
training is only as useful as you make it.

Would many pugs focus on speed clearing, taking advantage of all tools available? Sure. And they would advertise as such, and if you join such a group, you should be expected to play as such. There is nothing remotely wrong with this, if players want to play this way then they can. As I’ve said, the easy mode should function as a training option, but should definitely NOT be ONLY a training mode for hard mode. They are a true alternative, and players that intend to only play easy mode can and should be able to do so. There is nothing wrong with players playing easy mode for fun rather than training, that is a feature, not a bug.

But it will also have the capacity to train if people want that, and even pugs can advertise as “Easy mode, training run,” or however the community decides to call such a thing, in which all the players agree before going in that they ARE attempting to “play it straight” and treat all mechanics as if it were hard mode, even when they don’t strictly have to. You might not see any advantage to doing this over just barreling through hard mode, but just accept as a fact that there is a difference. Some players get overly frustrated by repeated failures, or get too stressed out by the pressure of imminent failure, and it shuts down all capacity to learn new things. Being able to go through the motions in a lower stress environment IS a healthy way for these players to train, whether that applies to you or not.

You need to tweak the mechanics so they are easier to handle while maintaining the threat.

No.

Maintaining the threat makes the entire exercise pointless. If you’re going to maintain the threat then you may as well just have the hard mode, because it would destroy any psychological benefits of having an easier mode and would satisfy no one that isn’t already satisfied by hard mode. It’s “easy mode for people that love hard mode.”

You often tell me that I shouldn’t express any opinion about hard mode raids because I am not their target audience, and my response is that I agree, I stay entirely out of hard mode raids, but I do know that I want the easy mode raid for myself and players like me. Well I’m going to say the same to you, you clearly do not understand even the basic philosophy behind what would make an easy mode raid of value, because they are so anathema to your own core values, so you seem incapable of comprehending an easy mode that would solve any of the problems it would need to solve, and instead only solve problems that don’t even need solutions.

If you’d like to continue “helping” with this situation, then at least sit back and take some time to better understand what the problems are, before insisting that you know the solutions. At the risk of “triggering” anyone, stop “raidersplaining” the situation.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah and but you have to weight all consequenses before introducing things. Something that you don’t want to acknowledge even after 30 pages of discussion. You only see your point and not the consequenses the introduction might have.

Nope. I see and accept all those consequences. All changes have consequences. I just don’t see the consequences as being terribly significant when compared to the gains. Again, if you use the rule that “any negative consequences are reason enough to not do something” then they shouldn’t have made raids in the first place. You seem to believe that the positive aspects of raiding outweigh the consequences, and you may be right about that. I believe that the benefits of a viable easy mode raid would outweigh the consequences, and I may be wrong about it, but so far you’ve done nothing to convince me of that beyond insisting that you don’t like it.

The main complain is the accessibility with PUGs. PUGs are also the biggest source of toxicity in the raiding enviroment, not organised groups.

True, but like it or not, PUGs are also one of the core features of GW2, it’s a very pug-friendly game. The reason why pugs have such toxicity potential with raids is because there is such a high possibility to total failure. If an insufficient player slows you down a bit, the real jerks might pick on them, but most players would just shrug it off. If an insufficient player leads to multiple wipes, the atmosphere tends to get more hostile. Creating an environment in which negative outcomes are less severe is the best way of reducing toxicity.

PUGs will use the path of least resistance. People not running towards the circle means more DPS.
More DPS -> shorter boss fight -> less time for errors/shorter clear times
If you would try to learn the fight with a PUG in that mode, you would learn nothing valuable. Instead you would get likely flamed for doing mechanics that aren’t neccesary.

Again,
training is only as useful as you make it.

Would many pugs focus on speed clearing, taking advantage of all tools available? Sure. And they would advertise as such, and if you join such a group, you should be expected to play as such. There is nothing remotely wrong with this, if players want to play this way then they can. As I’ve said, the easy mode should function as a training option, but should definitely NOT be ONLY a training mode for hard mode. They are a true alternative, and players that intend to only play easy mode can and should be able to do so. There is nothing wrong with players playing easy mode for fun rather than training, that is a feature, not a bug.

But it will also have the capacity to train if people want that, and even pugs can advertise as “Easy mode, training run,” or however the community decides to call such a thing, in which all the players agree before going in that they ARE attempting to “play it straight” and treat all mechanics as if it were hard mode, even when they don’t strictly have to. You might not see any advantage to doing this over just barreling through hard mode, but just accept as a fact that there is a difference. Some players get overly frustrated by repeated failures, or get too stressed out by the pressure of imminent failure, and it shuts down all capacity to learn new things. Being able to go through the motions in a lower stress environment IS a healthy way for these players to train, whether that applies to you or not.

You need to tweak the mechanics so they are easier to handle while maintaining the threat.

No.

Maintaining the threat makes the entire exercise pointless. If you’re going to maintain the threat then you may as well just have the hard mode, because it would destroy any psychological benefits of having an easier mode and would satisfy no one that isn’t already satisfied by hard mode. It’s “easy mode for people that love hard mode.”

You often tell me that I shouldn’t express any opinion about hard mode raids because I am not their target audience, and my response is that I agree, I stay entirely out of hard mode raids, but I do know that I want the easy mode raid for myself and players like me. Well I’m going to say the same to you, you clearly do not understand even the basic philosophy behind what would make an easy mode raid of value, because they are so anathema to your own core values, so you seem incapable of comprehending an easy mode that would solve any of the problems it would need to solve, and instead only solve problems that don’t even need solutions.

If you’d like to continue “helping” with this situation, then at least sit back and take some time to better understand what the problems are, before insisting that you know the solutions. At the risk of “triggering” anyone, stop “raidersplaining” the situation.

In lieu of reducing damage done from bosses that’s why i proposed increasing the enrage timer by 2 minutes that allows the people using easy mode to slot more survivability gear, but also impart the importance of mechanics, your method would remove the need to use mechanics almost entirely which doesn’t teach people the mechanics as effectively it will perpetuate the need to stack in a corner and dos as much as possible.

The idea on rewards is that there only needs to be one way to get certain Legendaries easy mode introduce and makes raids more accessible to new raiders but it isn’t designed as the end all be all, the legendary armor provides motive to do the regular Raids and there is nothing wrong with that. But that’s the last I’m saying on that subject since this whole topic is about accessibility of raids and not rewards, if you want to start that discussion again like you have previously and get it closed in a different thread be my guest.

In lieu of reducing damage done from bosses that’s why i proposed increasing the enrage timer by 2 minutes that allows the people using easy mode to slot more survivability gear, but also impart the importance of mechanics,

Yes, and softening the enrage timers would help certain groups, though a group would basically have to “build to the test.” It would only really help if players did buy full sets of tankier gear. If a random pug showed up with more glassy stuff then they wouldn’t see much benefit at all. If even half the group showed up glassy they’d likely be first to die and it would still wipe. I just don’t see this as an ideal solution to the “random pug shows up as they are and gives it a shot, and still wins” issue. It would make things easier in very edge cases, just not necessarily in a way that’s really needed.

your method would remove the need to use mechanics almost entirely which doesn’t teach people the mechanics as effectively it will perpetuate the need to stack in a corner and dos as much as possible.

People who intended to learn the “proper” mechanics would have to know going in what the “proper” mechanics were meant to be, and walk through them whether it was strictly necessary or not. If they go into it with that goal, then they can practice those mechanics. If they go in with the goal of just clearing easy mode ASAP, then they could do that instead, and that would be an equally positive outcome. That’s the point.

The idea on rewards is that there only needs to be one way to get certain Legendaries easy mode introduce and makes raids more accessible to new raiders but it isn’t designed as the end all be all,

But it should be. Players should not view it as a “stepping stone” to hard mode. Hard mode is not and never will be for everyone. Or rather, if hard mode ever did become “for everyone,” the people who currently like it would throw a fit, because it definitely wouldn’t be what they want out of a raid. Some people can use easy mode as a stepping stone to hard mode, but for plenty of players it will be the only raid they’ll ever want or need, so it needs to be a complete experience in and of itself. Only those who genuinely enjoy the challenge aspect that hard mode offers should have reason to go there.

But that’s the last I’m saying on that subject since this whole topic is about accessibility of raids and not rewards, if you want to start that discussion again like you have previously and get it closed in a different thread be my guest.

Again, you bring it up. You can’t just say “here’s my piece on the matter, but you’d better not reply or you’re just starting trouble.” If you don’t want rewards to be part of the discussion then don’t insist that they not be included in the easy mode.

Ohoni.6057:

In lieu of reducing damage done from bosses that’s why i proposed increasing the enrage timer by 2 minutes that allows the people using easy mode to slot more survivability gear, but also impart the importance of mechanics,

Yes, and softening the enrage timers would help certain groups, though a group would basically have to “build to the test.” It would only really help if players did buy full sets of tankier gear. If a random pug showed up with more glassy stuff then they wouldn’t see much benefit at all. If even half the group showed up glassy they’d likely be first to die and it would still wipe. I just don’t see this as an ideal solution to the “random pug shows up as they are and gives it a shot, and still wins” issue. It would make things easier in very edge cases, just not necessarily in a way that’s really needed.

your method would remove the need to use mechanics almost entirely which doesn’t teach people the mechanics as effectively it will perpetuate the need to stack in a corner and dos as much as possible.

People who intended to learn the “proper” mechanics would have to know going in what the “proper” mechanics were meant to be, and walk through them whether it was strictly necessary or not. If they go into it with that goal, then they can practice those mechanics. If they go in with the goal of just clearing easy mode ASAP, then they could do that instead, and that would be an equally positive outcome. That’s the point.

The idea on rewards is that there only needs to be one way to get certain Legendaries easy mode introduce and makes raids more accessible to new raiders but it isn’t designed as the end all be all,

But it should be. Players should not view it as a “stepping stone” to hard mode. Hard mode is not and never will be for everyone. Or rather, if hard mode ever did become “for everyone,” the people who currently like it would throw a fit, because it definitely wouldn’t be what they want out of a raid. Some people can use easy mode as a stepping stone to hard mode, but for plenty of players it will be the only raid they’ll ever want or need, so it needs to be a complete experience in and of itself. Only those who genuinely enjoy the challenge aspect that hard mode offers should have reason to go there.

But that’s the last I’m saying on that subject since this whole topic is about accessibility of raids and not rewards, if you want to start that discussion again like you have previously and get it closed in a different thread be my guest.

Again, you bring it up. You can’t just say “here’s my piece on the matter, but you’d better not reply or you’re just starting trouble.” If you don’t want rewards to be part of the discussion then don’t insist that they not be included in the easy mode.

Ohoni.6057:

In lieu of reducing damage done from bosses that’s why i proposed increasing the enrage timer by 2 minutes that allows the people using easy mode to slot more survivability gear, but also impart the importance of mechanics,

Yes, and softening the enrage timers would help certain groups, though a group would basically have to “build to the test.” It would only really help if players did buy full sets of tankier gear. If a random pug showed up with more glassy stuff then they wouldn’t see much benefit at all. If even half the group showed up glassy they’d likely be first to die and it would still wipe. I just don’t see this as an ideal solution to the “random pug shows up as they are and gives it a shot, and still wins” issue. It would make things easier in very edge cases, just not necessarily in a way that’s really needed.

your method would remove the need to use mechanics almost entirely which doesn’t teach people the mechanics as effectively it will perpetuate the need to stack in a corner and dos as much as possible.

People who intended to learn the “proper” mechanics would have to know going in what the “proper” mechanics were meant to be, and walk through them whether it was strictly necessary or not. If they go into it with that goal, then they can practice those mechanics. If they go in with the goal of just clearing easy mode ASAP, then they could do that instead, and that would be an equally positive outcome. That’s the point.

The idea on rewards is that there only needs to be one way to get certain Legendaries easy mode introduce and makes raids more accessible to new raiders but it isn’t designed as the end all be all,

But it should be. Players should not view it as a “stepping stone” to hard mode. Hard mode is not and never will be for everyone. Or rather, if hard mode ever did become “for everyone,” the people who currently like it would throw a fit, because it definitely wouldn’t be what they want out of a raid. Some people can use easy mode as a stepping stone to hard mode, but for plenty of players it will be the only raid they’ll ever want or need, so it needs to be a complete experience in and of itself. Only those who genuinely enjoy the challenge aspect that hard mode offers should have reason to go there.

But that’s the last I’m saying on that subject since this whole topic is about accessibility of raids and not rewards, if you want to start that discussion again like you have previously and get it closed in a different thread be my guest.

Again, you bring it up. You can’t just say “here’s my piece on the matter, but you’d better not reply or you’re just starting trouble.” If you don’t want rewards to be part of the discussion then don’t insist that they not be included in the easy mode.

the reason why I brought it up is that rewards are balanced around content you make content easier they get a decrease in rewards it’s simple, you are after gear not content, you want easier access to the new legendary, as shown by your statements multiple times in multiple threads. In the balancing of rewards portion of making more accessible raids i said to keep all rewards besides shard amount and core materials needed the raiders would still get the insights which is one of the very first stepping stones to crafting Legendaries, again if you make a easier version of something you need to change the rewards, i.e. You can’t get the legendary pvp back piece if you never step out of unranked.

But back on subject to lower the amount of damage done by raid mechanics would turn easy mode raids into dungeons 2.0 which is not the goal they would be there as a stepping stone teaching people the actual mechanics and consequences of the mechanics, reducing the threshold/ amount of key mechanics you need to devote people to on roles does that without allowing people to just Zerker face tank the boss in a corner, being lenient with the enrage timer really does make the raids so much easier and would allow people to play how they choose, the only real requirement would be needing a “tank” since bosses in raids go off of toughness and if there are multiple people competing in that value there will be consequences.

Again the whole design philosophy for raids was to be completely different than any open world content or any other instanced content, if you reduce the key elements that make raids more challenging too much you end up with a 10 man dungeon that won’t change the toxicity of pugs and it will be a larger scale rehash of previous content which is not the point of raids.

The biggest bar to entry is other people. The every groups I’ve joined wont take someone who’s never done the raid before. Yes I’ve tried to start a group myself and as soon as you say you’ve never done it, or put it in you group add, no one joins.

BrotherBelial.3094:

The biggest bar to entry is other people. The every groups I’ve joined wont take someone who’s never done the raid before. Yes I’ve tried to start a group myself and as soon as you say you’ve never done it, or put it in you group add, no one joins.

With the numbers of people complaining about that in the forum, you would think that one of them would start a guild for that exact type of people or at least start to message the others to form a group of their own.

Too much work maybe I don’t know.

Thaddeus.4891:

BrotherBelial.3094:

The biggest bar to entry is other people. The every groups I’ve joined wont take someone who’s never done the raid before. Yes I’ve tried to start a group myself and as soon as you say you’ve never done it, or put it in you group add, no one joins.

With the numbers of people complaining about that in the forum, you would think that one of them would start a guild for that exact type of people or at least start to message the others to form a group of their own.

Too much work maybe I don’t know.

Someone already started a guild solely for that reason him and his friends teach people how to raid it’s on the dungeons and fractals sub forum.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Someone already started a guild solely for that reason him and his friends teach people how to raid it’s on the dungeons and fractals sub forum.

The people complaining should know about it or at least try to find it. I never saw in those post someone asking for if such a guild.

randomguy has set up a non-rep guild for teaching players how to raid, they do clear content as well as help all that ask for it, below is a link to his thread he has stated how to contact him.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-teaching-runs-Proving-accessibility/first

Apparently as of today the guild is still working and therandomguy is still helping new raiders. So to all the people complaining that they can’t find a group because they don’t have LI, that’s your chance.

Thaddeus.4891:

BrotherBelial.3094:

The biggest bar to entry is other people. The every groups I’ve joined wont take someone who’s never done the raid before. Yes I’ve tried to start a group myself and as soon as you say you’ve never done it, or put it in you group add, no one joins.

With the numbers of people complaining about that in the forum, you would think that one of them would start a guild for that exact type of people or at least start to message the others to form a group of their own.

Too much work maybe I don’t know.

Already looked, the guild that are about are all NA. I don’t have the time to set one up my self, I simply don’t have the time to recruit people.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Thaddeus.4891:

BrotherBelial.3094:

The biggest bar to entry is other people. The every groups I’ve joined wont take someone who’s never done the raid before. Yes I’ve tried to start a group myself and as soon as you say you’ve never done it, or put it in you group add, no one joins.

With the numbers of people complaining about that in the forum, you would think that one of them would start a guild for that exact type of people or at least start to message the others to form a group of their own.

Too much work maybe I don’t know.

Already looked, the guild that are about are all NA. I don’t have the time to set one up my self, I simply don’t have the time to recruit people.

If you look on that post I linked the second page on the bottom there are EU people willing to teach raids.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Already looked, the guild that are about are all NA. I don’t have the time to set one up my self, I simply don’t have the time to recruit people.

You don’t need to create a guild. You can just talk to people that say they have the same problem as you in the forum. Ask them if they are on EU and if they want to raid with you.

If that’s too much work, then why are we talking? If you can’t put the effort, don’t raid.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

therandomguy has set up a non-rep guild for teaching players how to raid, they do clear content as well as help all that ask for it, below is a link to his thread he has stated how to contact him.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-teaching-runs-Proving-accessibility/first

We are not the same guy by the way.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

therandomguy has set up a non-rep guild for teaching players how to raid, they do clear content as well as help all that ask for it, below is a link to his thread he has stated how to contact him.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Raid-teaching-runs-Proving-accessibility/first

We are not the same guy by the way.

I apologize I meant for there to be a space in there. Edited

Thaddeus.4891:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Already looked, the guild that are about are all NA. I don’t have the time to set one up my self, I simply don’t have the time to recruit people.

You don’t need to create a guild. You can just talk to people that say they have the same problem as you in the forum. Ask them if they are on EU and if they want to raid with you.

If that’s too much work, then why are we talking? If you can’t put the effort, don’t raid.

done this too, all have said they are not on when I am. I play in the mornings. everyone I’ve spoken to plays in the evening/night. funny that not everyone can “just find people just like that.”

BrotherBelial.3094:

Thaddeus.4891:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Already looked, the guild that are about are all NA. I don’t have the time to set one up my self, I simply don’t have the time to recruit people.

You don’t need to create a guild. You can just talk to people that say they have the same problem as you in the forum. Ask them if they are on EU and if they want to raid with you.

If that’s too much work, then why are we talking? If you can’t put the effort, don’t raid.

done this too, all have said they are not on when I am. I play in the mornings. everyone I’ve spoken to plays in the evening/night. funny that not everyone can “just find people just like that.”

That’s not an issue of accessibility that’s an issue of Play time/ population size during off peak hours Anet cannot do anything for you in that sense. Gaming communities are player driven not Developer driven, changing raids won’t change your experience into getting into them if you don not have people to play with.

BrotherBelial.3094:

done this too, all have said they are not on when I am. I play in the mornings. everyone I’ve spoken to plays in the evening/night. funny that not everyone can “just find people just like that.”

What do you want Anet to do about that? I mean you don’t play at the same time then other people, that’s nobodies fault. I remember someone on the forum complaining about raid because he work on call so he can’t raid because he could get a call in the middle of the raid and have to go. Anet can’t design a game around everybodies own personalize schedule, work hours and life style.

the reason why I brought it up is that rewards are balanced around content you make content easier they get a decrease in rewards it’s simple,

Yes, and I think we’re all on the same page with that, if they make an easier mode then the amount of rewards you get each run should be decreased accordingly, but some people are saying that certain rewards should be taken off the table entirely, such that you could run the easy mode ten times, a hundred times, a thousand times, and still not receive certain basic rewards that hard mode raids offer.

you are after gear not content, you want easier access to the new legendary, as shown by your statements multiple times in multiple threads.

No, I’m after both. It’s people who oppose offering both that typically saying things like “you are after gear not content, you want easier access to the new legendary, as shown by your statements multiple times in multiple threads,” I think because they believe that in so doing they are somehow marginalizing my viewpoint, that somehow wanting access to rewards would make a weaker case than wanting access to content. The fact remains that I want both, and will continue to want both, and have always been 100% up front with everyone about that, so I’m really not sure why the conspiracy theory whispers are warranted.

In the balancing of rewards portion of making more accessible raids i said to keep all rewards besides shard amount and core materials needed the raiders would still get the insights which is one of the very first stepping stones to crafting Legendaries, again if you make a easier version of something you need to change the rewards, i.e. You can’t get the legendary pvp back piece if you never step out of unranked.

I’m on record of not supporting how the PvP backpiece is doled out either, but to address the point, insights and the other things are useless to a player if they don’t have the other pieces. A player could run easy mode for a year or two and collect a hundred times the insights as someone who played hard mode for two months, and yet the latter could have Legendary Armor and the former could not because he would still be lacking the other elements.

I think it would be a fair requirement that players would have to attempt hard mode in order to fully unlock the reward track, but the current requirements are not just that they should attempt it, but that they must successfully kill each boss at least once, sometimes several times. That is an unreasonable requirement for easy mode players.

To get back to the PvP backpiece, my stand there was that it would be fair if the Recruit’s wings, which require you to reach Emerald at least once, were ranked PvP only, forcing everyone to spend a little time and effort in the activity, but ultimately forcing nobody to PvP more than a few hours, and requiring basically no skill at it, but then the other components should have been available via other methods (but the PvP track would always be there for those that enjoyed it). Similar situation here, it’d be ok to have a requirement that they would need to at some point challenge the Vale Guardian in hard mode for a couple hours, but given the current level of the content, requiring that players actually complete that encounter would be a bit much.

But back on subject to lower the amount of damage done by raid mechanics would turn easy mode raids into dungeons 2.0 which is not the goal they would be there as a stepping stone teaching people the actual mechanics and consequences of the mechanics,

No.

They are not intended as a stepping stone, they ARE intended as a self-contained version of content, the first and LAST form of raiding that some players would ever need. Only players that WANT the higher level of challenge of the existing raids should ever advance to them. The easy mode raids can act as a stepping stone, I believe they should be capable of serving that function, but they should not be designed with the intention that every player would eventually “graduate” to hard mode. There is easy mode, and there is hard mode, and each would have their own groups of players that enjoy them. It is not a progression raid system.

Always view easy mode as a perfectly valid finish-line, not as a halfway point.

being lenient with the enrage timer really does make the raids so much easier and would allow people to play how they choose, the only real requirement would be needing a “tank” since bosses in raids go off of toughness and if there are multiple people competing in that value there will be consequences.

And again, it really doesn’t allow players to play how they choose, it would just give them more flexibility in gearing how they choose. If a “hard mode ready” team went in, one tank and a lot of glass, then they would have to play exactly like in the current hard mode or they would all die. To take advantage of the relaxed timer, they would all need to be wearing more tanky armor, including the tank, and pack more healers. In a random pug, coordinating this would be less likely, so the benefits would be fairly limited.

Again the whole design philosophy for raids was to be completely different than any open world content or any other instanced content, if you reduce the key elements that make raids more challenging too much you end up with a 10 man dungeon that won’t change the toxicity of pugs and it will be a larger scale rehash of previous content which is not the point of raids.

I’m well aware that this would not fit into the “philosophy of raids” because it is the “philosophy of raids” that are causing most of the problems. The hard mode version would continue to exist, and people who enjoy the “philosophy of raids” could stick to that mode. The easy mode would be for players for whom “philosophy of raids” does not work, for various reasons, but who still see potential benefits from an easier version. Different target audience, different philosophy. And yes, easy mode WOULD reduce toxicity, because the root cause of toxicity is the high chance of total failure if anyone in the group falls short of expectations. If you greatly reduce that chance of total failure, then you reduce the toxicity accordingly.

Apparently as of today the guild is still working and therandomguy is still helping new raiders. So to all the people complaining that they can’t find a group because they don’t have LI, that’s your chance.

I’ve tried that though and it didn’t work out. We spent hours at the boss and never got more than halfway through.

Ohoni, these are the 2 main points that to me give value to raids and I think for many others as well.

The struggle, the progress, the succes, and the reward give me great pleasure and make raids fun for me personally. The moment you take away any of it, you are effectively removing part of the value and experience. An easy mode with the same rewards over time will thus take value out of raiding for me.

Secondly we have plenty exclusive rewards ( THANK GOD). Cool looking and much demanded rewards that are effectively limited in supply are scarce, exlusive and valuable. The fact that not all players can put in the required resources (be it skill, gold or time) and not every type of content drops them is what gives value and meaning to these skins. Hence when you obtain one of these exclusive skins you get a sense of accomplishment, this is especially true for raids. The instant you make legendaries drop from harvesting nodes the value is gone.

Now if your problem is that raids do not match with gw2, and a rather large group of players that enjoy casual content cannot clear raids while watching tv. This is what I say:

- We have alot of content that does not require attention and is casual
- Most of the resources are spend on easy content
- Alot of casual players do not mind raids, some of them even like them

- HOT is an expansion and as such it makes some changes to the game, raids might not have been for gw2 in the past, they are now. You might say HOT sales are low due to raids, but only arenanet has the numbers and statistics to draw any reasonable conclusions from. So far they are fine with raids being the way they are and everything is indicating raids are a big succes.

-Why do we only think about the majority of players? What about the minorities of players. Do these not count? Do they not support arenanet? Why cant a minority of population get any exclusive content and rewards? Minorities are customers and have expectations and rights as well. The ulitarian perspective that you use tends to forget about minorities.

Do not misunderstand, if arenanet wants to make a different looking set of legendary armor available through other means than raiding, I am all for it! Just don’t make a unique raid reward generic and meaningless in nature by adding it to the easy mode loot table.

But lets get on topic and talk about the accesibility of raids or this thread will probably be closed!

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If you keep the “difficulty” by upping the mechanics it would barely change anything. Players are even now not able to perform the machanics without errors.

You know maybe your DPS is bad sometimes because players are failing the mechanics?

The struggle, the progress, the succes, and the reward give me great pleasure and make raids fun for me personally. The moment you take away any of it, you are effectively removing part of the value and experience. An easy mode with the same rewards over time will thus take value out of raiding for me.

I’m not taking away ANY of those things from you. The existing raids would continue to exist, and continue to offer ALL of those things for those that want them. Problem solved.

Now, if it bothers you that other players would be able to complete a labeled easier version of the content, then I’m sorry, but there’s really nothing I can do about that. Maybe you would be made less happy, and that’s a pity, but in the process tens of other people would be made more happy, so on balance it makes the game a better place, even if, by necessity of that change, it makes it less fun for you personally. So it goes.

Hence when you obtain one of these exclusive skins you get a sense of accomplishment, this is especially true for raids. The instant you make legendaries drop from harvesting nodes the value is gone.

And nobody is changing that. They would continue to take a great deal of time and effort to earn. The only difference is that there would be multiple paths to that goal, some very high stress but shorter, and some much lower stress but longer, but both paths would add up to an equivalent effort over time. The value in achieving a difficult task would still be there.

- HOT is an expansion and as such it makes some changes to the game, raids might not have been for gw2 in the past, they are now. You might say HOT sales are low due to raids, but only arenanet has the numbers and statistics to draw any reasonable conclusions from. So far they are fine with raids being the way they are and everything is indicating raids are a big success.

And if all of this is true then you have nothing to fear from me or people like me. We can talk about how we want easier raids all we want, but if the numbers don’t back us up then ANet will never do anything about it and your precious raids are secure. But the fact that so many of you see fit to attack those suggesting easy mode raids at every opportunity lead me to believe that you guys are not as secure in your numbers as you believe.

-Why do we only think about the majority of players? What about the minorities of players. Do these not count? Do they not support arenanet? Why cant a minority of population get any exclusive content and rewards? Minorities are customers and have expectations and rights as well. The ulitarian perspective that you use tends to forget about minorities.

I think they can, so long as these minority players experiences do not come at the expense of the majority. Even if raiders are a minority, I think it’s perfectly fine for them to have difficult content that the majority does not want or need. But I don’t think it’s justified to then lock story and rewards behind that content that the majority cannot have convenient access to. There should be options for the majority to gain access to those story elements and rewards as well.

Do not misunderstand, if arenanet wants to make a different looking set of legendary armor available through other means than raiding, I am all for it!

And I’m all for that too, but that doesn’t mean that Envoy armor should not also be available to non-raiders. I mean, if it turns out that Envoy armor looks sufficiently awesome, then I’ll want at least some of it. Having a completely different set of Legendary armor would be nice in its own right, but it’s no substitute for the Envoy armor. I mean, Nevermore and Bifrost are both great, but for me, I want Bifrost. If I’m told “well, you can never reasonably achieve Bifrost, but you can get Nevermore,” that’s nice and all, but it’s not the version that I wanted, so it’s really no substitute.

Ohoni you have to accept Envoy is part of PvE content aka raids to get it do the current raids yes there can be an easier raid but the envoy should be long to the original raids, if they release a separate armor it should go to WvW not to PvE which already has one way of getting it. Again every content in game has at least one type of legendary gated behind it Ow pve has weapons no other game type can get weapons, fractals and pvp have back pieces, raids have armor, already making two paths to armor is redundant and does take away from raids that was the big draw to raids besides the challenge, you take that away you undermine the intent behind adding the armor to raids.

Time =/= Effort.

Now I have yet to see you offer to the discussion besides nerf all bosses health and damage and remove enrage timers which completely eliminates it as a raid it’s just a show up get a trophy event which should be avoided since there would be no challenge which is what raids are designed as even if they implement an easier version, you would put them at an easier level than dungeons are but with 10 people instead of five.

You keep going back to having Legendaries in it no matter what, you are overly focused on the rewards and not the content.

Terrible suggestion. No one would bother dodging for Gors.