Guild Wars 2

Ohoni you have to accept Envoy is part of PvE content aka raids to get it do the current raids yes there can be an easier raid but the envoy should be long to the original raids, if they release a separate armor it should go to WvW not to PvE which already has one way of getting it.

Nah.

gain every content in game has at least one type of legendary gated behind it Ow pve has weapons no other game type can get weapons, fractals and pvp have back pieces, raids have armor,

And if that bothers you then push to have alternate methods of earning those things too, you have my support 100%. But don’t try to use that as some sort of reason why Envoy armor must be locked permanently behind hard mode raids.

already making two paths to armor is redundant and does take away from raids that was the big draw to raids besides the challenge, you take that away you undermine the intent behind adding the armor to raids.

Then that’s what happens. I mean, you can’t have it both ways, you can’t say “raids aren’t for everybody, if you don’t like X, Y, and Z then raids are just not for you,” and then turn around and say “but raids in their current form should be the ONLY way to get certain high value items.” No, that’s just silly. If a certain content is not meant for everyone to do and enjoy doing, then it can’t provide rewards that anyone might want.

Time =/= Effort.

True, but (Effort*2)Time == Effort(Time*2).

You keep going back to having Legendaries in it no matter what, you are overly focused on the rewards and not the content.

I’m only responding to people like you that insist that they can’t be. Again, don’t make it an issue and it’s not an issue. If you do make it an issue, then don’t cry foul when people respond to you about it.

Ohoni.6057:

Ohoni you have to accept Envoy is part of PvE content aka raids to get it do the current raids yes there can be an easier raid but the envoy should be long to the original raids, if they release a separate armor it should go to WvW not to PvE which already has one way of getting it.

Nah.

gain every content in game has at least one type of legendary gated behind it Ow pve has weapons no other game type can get weapons, fractals and pvp have back pieces, raids have armor,

And if that bothers you then push to have alternate methods of earning those things too, you have my support 100%. But don’t try to use that as some sort of reason why Envoy armor must be locked permanently behind hard mode raids.

It isn’t locked behind normal raids if you can get it via WvW.

already making two paths to armor is redundant and does take away from raids that was the big draw to raids besides the challenge, you take that away you undermine the intent behind adding the armor to raids.

Then that’s what happens. I mean, you can’t have it both ways, you can’t say “raids aren’t for everybody, if you don’t like X, Y, and Z then raids are just not for you,” and then turn around and say “but raids in their current form should be the ONLY way to get certain high value items.” No, that’s just silly. If a certain content is not meant for everyone to do and enjoy doing, then it can’t provide rewards that anyone might want.

We can have it both ways. Thats how legendary armor works currently.
It is not silly that certain rewards are behind specific content.
The main problem is still that you want the items and can’t complete the current raids or don’t want to put the effort into it.

Time =/= Effort.

True, but (Effort*2)Time == Effort(Time*2).

No, doubling the workforce doesn’t halve the time.

You keep going back to having Legendaries in it no matter what, you are overly focused on the rewards and not the content.

I’m only responding to people like you that insist that they can’t be. Again, don’t make it an issue and it’s not an issue. If you do make it an issue, then don’t cry foul when people respond to you about it.

Your easy mode with skipable mechanics doesn’t qualify for anything more than some silver and 1 participation exotic. It would be easier than dungeons and fractals with much better rewards.

The fact that you, a person without any real raiding experience, think that you can design a better easy mode with learning effect than raiders with raiding experience over different games and know the mechanics and requirements of GW2 raids, is still astonishing.
Making mechanics easier without reducing the threat makes it also less stressful than normal mode.

Ohoni you have to accept Envoy is part of PvE content aka raids to get it do the current raids yes there can be an easier raid but the envoy should be long to the original raids, if they release a separate armor it should go to WvW not to PvE which already has one way of getting it.

Nah.

and yes. It is, and only if you can back up your claim with numbers, you’re part of the minority who’s not accepting this fact.

gain every content in game has at least one type of legendary gated behind it Ow pve has weapons no other game type can get weapons, fractals and pvp have back pieces, raids have armor,

And if that bothers you then push to have alternate methods of earning those things too, you have my support 100%. But don’t try to use that as some sort of reason why Envoy armor must be locked permanently behind hard mode raids.

We told you plenty of time it’s not bad to have some things locked behind specific tasks (like pvp, fractal, and now raids). Ok you don’t agree with that, it’s your right. But iy’s our right to be perfectly fine with that.

Time =/= Effort.

True, but (Effort*2)Time == Effort(Time*2).

Oh i can play too, that means (effort*10)time = = effort(time*10).
I prefer my equation.

You keep going back to having Legendaries in it no matter what, you are overly focused on the rewards and not the content.

I’m only responding to people like you that insist that they can’t be. Again, don’t make it an issue and it’s not an issue. If you do make it an issue, then don’t cry foul when people respond to you about it.

and we’re responding to people like you that insist they can have everything in this game. Don’t make an issue when it’s not an issue. Or maybe you want this thread to be closed like the previous one?

It isn’t locked behind normal raids if you can get it via WvW.

Which you currently can’t, but neither is WvW a PvE method. Why are you so obsessed with WvW? Nobody even likes WvW in the first place. More than like raids, sure, but not enough to take much priority.

The main problem is still that you want the items and can’t complete the current raids or don’t want to put the effort into it.

Exactly, hence threads like this one.

No, doubling the workforce doesn’t halve the time.

Really depends on the tasks. The point is, less effort over more time DOES balance out with more effort over less time.

Your easy mode with skipable mechanics doesn’t qualify for anything more than some silver and 1 participation exotic. It would be easier than dungeons and fractals with much better rewards.

It would still be the hardest core dungeon content, and equivalent to even mid-tier Fractals if you have the right level of Agony Resist. That you believe it’s not deserving of any useful rewards does not have anything to do with whether it actually does.

The fact that you, a person without any real raiding experience, thinks that you can design a better easy mode with learning effect than a raiders with raiding experience over different games and know the mechanics and requirements of GW2 raids, is still astonishing.

I don’t see why it should be. You’re the one insisting that you know what easy mode players would need when you’re already fine with the existing systems. Shouldn’t people who feel that they are lacking something be the ones to define what it is they feel they are having trouble with?

Making mechanics easier without reducing the threat makes it also less stressful than normal mode.

Maybe to you, certainly not to me. To me, the stress is ENTIRELY in the potential penalties. I mean, you tell me, “answer this series of simple math problems, but each failure we give you an electric shock,” I would find that far more stressful than “answer this series of more complex math problems, but each one you get wrong, well we’ll tell you that you got it wrong.”

I am telling you as an absolute fact, one that you cannot dispute in any way, that I would find mechanics that are “infantile moded” but that still could kill you if you screw them up, to be far more stressful and caustic to the learning experience than mechanics that are equally as difficult to manage as the existing ones, yet have much more limited impact if you miss them.

I feel like you actually understand this full well, but you are less focused on it being a successful learning experience, and more focused on making sure that the chance of failure is still high, that it remains impossible to just “tank through it.”

We told you plenty of time it’s not bad to have some things locked behind specific tasks (like pvp, fractal, and now raids). Ok you don’t agree with that, it’s your right. But iy’s our right to be perfectly fine with that.

Sure. I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy for the record.

Oh i can play too, that means (effort*10)time = = effort(time*10).
I prefer my equation.

Sure, although I’m not looking for something that would take 1/10th the effort. Maybe 1/4, tops.

Hence when you obtain one of these exclusive skins you get a sense of accomplishment, this is especially true for raids. The instant you make legendaries drop from harvesting nodes the value is gone.

And nobody is changing that. They would continue to take a great deal of time and effort to earn. The only difference is that there would be multiple paths to that goal, some very high stress but shorter, and some much lower stress but longer, but both paths would add up to an equivalent effort over time. The value in achieving a difficult task would still be there.

In most fields of endeavor, there is a vast difference between pushing oneself to excel and putting in one’s time. You want the exclusive raid rewards to be gained for putting in time (easy mode), as well as for excelling (normal mode). Putting in time is not difficult, it’s just time-consuming. The two “ways” are not equivalent in any qualitative sense. So, no, the value in the rewards as symbols of overcoming difficulty would no longer be present. You’d be turning championship trophies into participation awards such as I’ve seen given out to every kid who tried out for a sport in grade school.

In most fields of endeavor, there is a vast difference between pushing oneself to excel and putting in one’s time. You want the exclusive raid rewards to be gained for putting in time (easy mode), as well as for excelling (normal mode). Putting in time is not difficult, it’s just time-consuming. The two “ways” are not equivalent in any qualitative sense.

That’s your opinion and you’re welcome to it, so long as you do not attempt to use it to justify excluding things from other players.

So, no, the value in the rewards as symbols of overcoming difficulty would no longer be present.

Perhaps, but that is not the right place to put such a symbol. That symbol should be in the form of a title or nametag flair, not in the form of armor.

You’d be turning championship trophies into participation awards such as I’ve seen given out to every kid who tried out for a sport in grade school.

Nope, I’m not touching trophies, just armor.

Ohoni.6057:

Which you currently can’t, but neither is WvW a PvE method. Why are you so obsessed with WvW? Nobody even likes WvW in the first place. More than like raids, sure, but not enough to take much priority.

I dare you to tell that in the WvW forum and we don’t need another PvE method for legendary armor, we already have raids.

The main problem is still that you want the items and can’t complete the current raids or don’t want to put the effort into it.

Exactly, hence threads like this one.

So here you tell use you want the shinies and don’t want to put the same effort into it.
There goes your ‘equatation’.

No, doubling the workforce doesn’t halve the time.

Really depends on the tasks. The point is, less effort over more time DOES balance out with more effort over less time.

Yes, tasks that involve teamwork don’t work that way. Raids are a teamoriented activity.

It would still be the hardest core dungeon content, and equivalent to even mid-tier Fractals if you have the right level of Agony Resist. That you believe it’s not deserving of any useful rewards does not have anything to do with whether it actually does.

Exotics are useful. For ascended there are still fractals. And adding more sources for ascended equipment crashes the market.
You think you deserve legendary armor for showing up.

I don’t see why it should be. You’re the one insisting that you know what easy mode players would need when you’re already fine with the existing systems. Shouldn’t people who feel that they are lacking something be the ones to define what it is they feel they are having trouble with?

It’s funny how you alter between a learning mode and a easy mode, depending on what you need for your ‘argumentation’.
Your easy mode is useless as a preparation for normal mode. You just want a way to the shinies.

Maybe to you, certainly not to me. To me, the stress is ENTIRELY in the potential penalties. I mean, you tell me, “answer this series of simple math problems, but each failure we give you an electric shock,” I would find that far more stressful than “answer this series of more complex math problems, but each one you get wrong, well we’ll tell you that you got it wrong.”

I am telling you as an absolute fact, one that you cannot dispute in any way, that I would find mechanics that are “infantile moded” but that still could kill you if you screw them up, to be far more stressful and caustic to the learning experience than mechanics that are equally as difficult to manage as the existing ones, yet have much more limited impact if you miss them.

I feel like you actually understand this full well, but you are less focused on it being a successful learning experience, and more focused on making sure that the chance of failure is still high, that it remains impossible to just “tank through it.”

Yeah, mechanics can’t cause any stress if you can ignore them.
There is a difference between limited impact and no impact. Most mechanics will lose their impact if you reduce the damage or remove the instantkill especially if you also remove or increase the enrage timer.
You won’t know what you are doing wrong if you succeed anyway. There is no learning effect outside of ‘doing mechanics is a DPS loss’.

You’d be turning championship trophies into participation awards such as I’ve seen given out to every kid who tried out for a sport in grade school.

Nope, I’m not touching trophies, just armor.

The armor is part of the trophies.

Most of the people here are pro easy mode for a learning purpose and contra legendary armor in that easy mode and you still think you are part of some majority.

This will be another thread that has been derailed to fixate on Legendary Armor or other raid-specific rewards. I thought one of the rules of the forum was to remain on-topic?

Our Philosophy:

• Stay on topic

It’s really disrespectful to the original posters and anyone actually interested in the topic to push your own personal agenda at every opportunity. It makes posting on these forums pretty pointless when pushy people quote you to death with walls of texts.

Ohoni.6057:

We told you plenty of time it’s not bad to have some things locked behind specific tasks (like pvp, fractal, and now raids). Ok you don’t agree with that, it’s your right. But iy’s our right to be perfectly fine with that.

Sure. I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy for the record.

Oh i can play too, that means (effort*10)time = = effort(time*10).
I prefer my equation.

Sure, although I’m not looking for something that would take 1/10th the effort. Maybe 1/4, tops.

For me the way you describe easy mode raids requires zero intensity/effort, I could do it while watching tv and being on the phone. So no amount of time you add could justify you getting raid rewards through easy mode.

Now on topic, if you remove the enrage timer we will get players excluding other players just like we did back in the dungeon/fractal meta. The engrage timers are pretty lenient anyways, seeing how people low man it.

So here you tell use you want the shinies and don’t want to put the same effort into it.
There goes your ‘equatation’.

You’re playing word games. I said I didn’t want to put in the specific effort of the current options, I didn’t say anything there about not wanting to put in any effort. I think I’ve been very clear about where I stand, I can only attribute this response to a deliberate, rather than accidental misinterpretation on your part.

Yes, tasks that involve teamwork don’t work that way. Raids are a teamoriented activity.

Yes, the existing raids certainly are. Hence the request for alternatives that are more in line with the GW2 philosophy.

Exotics are useful.

Exotics are not useful, they are trash loot. Fancy trash loot, sure, but still trash.

For ascended there are still fractals. And adding more sources for ascended equipment crashes the market.

So remove them from the existing raids then? I’m not sure I’d go so far as that.

You think you deserve legendary armor for showing up.

No, that’s your stance. Mine is that I think it would be fair to receive Legendary armor in exchange for a long period of time working diligently at it, the same as the PvP Legendary Backpiece.

It’s funny how you alter between a learning mode and a easy mode, depending on what you need for your ‘argumentation’.

I’ve made clear that I believe both are important, so when I feel that either is being compromised, I defend it. I DO think that easy mode should stand on its own, that some players should be able to ONLY play easy mode and get everything they need out of it, that it should be one-stop shopping for players who have no interest in the “challenge chase.” I ALSO think that easy mode can and should serve a valuable training function, and should be designed in the way that best supports that function. I have been very clear about this in the past, so again, I can only attribute this response to a deliberate, rather than accidental misinterpretation on your part.

Yeah, mechanics can’t cause any stress if you can ignore them.

Yes, EXACTLY. Finally you get it. Thank you.

There is a difference between limited impact and no impact. Most mechanics will lose their impact if you reduce the damage or remove the instantkill especially if you also remove or increase the enrage timer.

Yes, working as intended. Brilliant.

You won’t know what you are doing wrong if you succeed anyway. There is no learning effect outside of ‘doing mechanics is a DPS loss’.

Not directly, no. I mean, if your ONLY experience with the content is easy mode then you probably wouldn’t learn what you need to do hard mode the first try. I think your “the mechanics are easier” approach would fail at that as well, because it would leave players going “I got two people into the circle, why is it still killing us?”

That’s not the point.

I fully expect that players who intend to graduate from easy to hard would learn how hard works. They would watch videos and read guides. They would know that in hard mode they would be expected to get three people into the circle, and that if they don’t it does a ton of damage. They would be trying to avoid this.

If they want to avoid all “spoilers” and learn it for themselves, then they would need to attempt hard mode themselves a little bit and learn how the mechanics work, then take that knowledge back to easy mode and practice them. In this case, easy mode would not be for teaching the mechanics, that’s what hard mode would be for, easy mode would be for practicing them in a lower stress environment. Hard would teach them what to do, easy would teach them how it feels to pull it off.

If they got hit, they might not get downed, but they would know that they got hit,it certainly wouldn’t deal “no” damage, and would have flashy effects. They would know that they screwed up, and they would try to do better. With lower risk, they can actually pay attention to everything that’s going on, rather than being in reactionary fight-or-flight mode, allowing them to learn more easily.

The armor is part of the trophies.

No, armor is armor, trophies are trophies. Armor is only a trophy when you put it on a rack.

Most of the people here are pro easy mode for a learning purpose and contra legendary armor in that easy mode and you still think you are part of some majority.

If you really thought that, you wouldn’t be spending so much effort trying to belittle me and my positions.

This will be another thread that has been derailed to fixate on Legendary Armor or other raid-specific rewards. I thought one of the rules of the forum was to remain on-topic?

We’re trying to stay on topic, but those opposed to “watering down raids” keep popping in to insist that any easier version of raids cannot include the same types of rewards the hard modes do. I’m as done with that topic as you are, but it keeps coming up. It is still a part of the topic though, since raids are raids, and the rewards from raids are part of “raids.” Thank you for the forum policing though, it’s appreciated, but I doubt they’ll listen.

your opinion. Not the dev one. And many players agree with them. Personnaly, i think armor is a great symbol actually.

Well sure, because you stand to get it, but the armor’s “value as a symbol” should not trump people’s ability to wear it for it’s “value of looking good.” Either it can be a “trophy” that only some people can get, OR it can be “armor” that many people would want without caring about any “trophy” value you might attach to it. A trophy should be JUST that, a chunk of nothing that ONLY has value because it’s difficult to obtain. It should not have value in and of itself.

Armor is part of the trophies,

Nope.

That’s your opinion and you’re welcome to it, so long as you do not attempt to use it to justify excluding things from other players.

I’m not excluding anyone from anything. You made a choice, but don’t like the consequences. Now you’re making an appeal to authority to try to get your way. You could choose the other path at any time, so you are excluding yourself. You can’t put the onus for you not getting what you want on me.

And I am using that opinion to justify keeping exclusive rewards, including skins in the game. You, on the other hand, are using your opinion that you ought to be able to get anything you want doing things how you want to to justify changing the way the game’s reward system has been since before launch. Neither of us is right or wrong and neither of us has either the real or moral authority to arbitrate right or wrong.

Perhaps, but that is not the right place to put such a symbol. That symbol should be in the form of a title or nametag flair, not in the form of armor.

That’s your opinion, and you’re welcome to it. In case you haven’t noticed, I think after your expression of this opinion in multiple threads, Anet has heard you.

Nope, I’m not touching trophies, just armor.

Since it is obvious that ANet planned to treat armor skins as trophies from the beginning, yes, you are in fact proposing to touch trophies.

For me the way you describe easy mode raids requires zero intensity/effort, I could do it while watching tv and being on the phone. So no amount of time you add could justify you getting raid rewards through easy mode.

I really don’t care how easy it might be for you. If you want to run easy mode, go right ahead. The point is to make it easy enough for lower skilled, lower geared pugs to get through it.

Now on topic, if you remove the enrage timer we will get players excluding other players just like we did back in the dungeon/fractal meta. The engrage timers are pretty lenient anyways, seeing how people low man it.

We already have people excluding others, what do you believe would change there? If anything, it would greatly reduce the number of players excluding others, since the consequences of coming up short would not be so severe.

And I am using that opinion to justify keeping exclusive rewards, including skins in the game. You, on the other hand, are using your opinion that you ought to be able to get anything you want doing things how you want to to justify changing the way the game’s reward system has been since before launch. Neither of us is right or wrong and neither of us has either the real or moral authority to arbitrate right or wrong.

I suppose that’s true enough, to that point, but remember that I’m arguing in favor of making the system more accessible to more people, causing greater overall happiness, while you’re arguing in favor of keeping things small and exclusive, to favor those at the top at the expense of everyone else. You cannot argue that those two positions are morally neutral.

Since it is obvious that ANet planned to treat armor skins as trophies from the beginning, yes, you are in fact proposing to touch trophies.

Nope, Trophies are trophies. You can put them in your Guild Hall.

Ohoni.6057:

For me the way you describe easy mode raids requires zero intensity/effort, I could do it while watching tv and being on the phone. So no amount of time you add could justify you getting raid rewards through easy mode.

I really don’t care how easy it might be for you. If you want to run easy mode, go right ahead. The point is to make it easy enough for lower skilled, lower geared pugs to get through it.

Now on topic, if you remove the enrage timer we will get players excluding other players just like we did back in the dungeon/fractal meta. The engrage timers are pretty lenient anyways, seeing how people low man it.

We already have people excluding others, what do you believe would change there? If anything, it would greatly reduce the number of players excluding others, since the consequences of coming up short would not be so severe.

Oh, the irony of claiming others should care about making raids accessible to everyone and their pet goldfish, and then going all ‘I don’t care what you think’, or excluding the opinions of other players who have just as much of a right to voice their opinion since it doesn’t fit yours.

Anyway, I digress. I’d just like to point out that this was about raid accessibility, not raid rewards, and it seems like discussion of that is just shifting towards the latter.

I’d say the mods should close this thread down as well. What’s the point when everyone commenting is just repeating themselves because one special snowflake just wants the last word?

It’s not even honest discussion anymore, and therefore should not be treated as such.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m not taking away ANY of those things from you. The existing raids would continue to exist, and continue to offer ALL of those things for those that want them. Problem solved.

You are taking away from my experience, the rewards don’t feel as rewarding anymore if I could have gotten them when afking an easy mode. The instant you yourself beat VG you will know what I mean.

Now, if it bothers you that other players would be able to complete a labeled easier version of the content, then I’m sorry, but there’s really nothing I can do about that. Maybe you would be made less happy, and that’s a pity, but in the process tens of other people would be made more happy, so on balance it makes the game a better place, even if, by necessity of that change, it makes it less fun for you personally. So it goes.

You are not sorry, if you were truely sorry you would drop the topic and start asking for legendary armor through open world content. You are saying, hey I’m a more deserving customer than you cause I’m part of a majority ( so you claim). The ulitarian approach doesnt work here with raids, cause it was never intended to please the bigger audience.

And nobody is changing that. They would continue to take a great deal of time and effort to earn. The only difference is that there would be multiple paths to that goal, some very high stress but shorter, and some much lower stress but longer, but both paths would add up to an equivalent effort over time. The value in achieving a difficult task would still be there.

Like I said plenty of times, exclusive skins are part of the deal. It offers value and fun, I do not want more paths to envoy armor. Just like I do not want more paths to the PVP legendary back piece.

And if all of this is true then you have nothing to fear from me or people like me. We can talk about how we want easier raids all we want, but if the numbers don’t back us up then ANet will never do anything about it and your precious raids are secure. But the fact that so many of you see fit to attack those suggesting easy mode raids at every opportunity lead me to believe that you guys are not as secure in your numbers as you believe.

Don’t lie, I’m not attacking you and infact I only reply to you, because your logic and reasonings are lacking. I assure you that I’m very confident.

I think they can, so long as these minority players experiences do not come at the expense of the majority. Even if raiders are a minority, I think it’s perfectly fine for them to have difficult content that the majority does not want or need. But I don’t think it’s justified to then lock story and rewards behind that content that the majority cannot have convenient access to. There should be options for the majority to gain access to those story elements and rewards as well.

It is not at the expense of the majority, infact the majority of players has no access to ANY legendaries, however unlike you they accept that it is ultimately their choice that they do not wish to put in the resources required to get a legendary. When you take the fun out of the game by removing any unique and flavoured skins and once you start making rewards trivial, thats when the majority suffers.

And I’m all for that too, but that doesn’t mean that Envoy armor should not also be available to non-raiders. I mean, if it turns out that Envoy armor looks sufficiently awesome, then I’ll want at least some of it. Having a completely different set of Legendary armor would be nice in its own right, but it’s no substitute for the Envoy armor. I mean, Nevermore and Bifrost are both great, but for me, I want Bifrost. If I’m told “well, you can never reasonably achieve Bifrost, but you can get Nevermore,” that’s nice and all, but it’s not the version that I wanted, so it’s really no substitute.

And you are one of the few people that has problems with unique rewards. I know this is new to you but you will have to accept that you sometimes can’t have it all. I will never get the Nevermore altough it looks very cool. I’m perfectly fine with it though, after all I make the decision to not spend all resources I have on making the Nevermore. Same as you make the decision to not progress in raids.

Let’s face it, you are bad at raids and you do not improve, hence you will not get the raid rewards. You are not used to being excluded cause you have always belonged to the people that get pretty much anything you want ( even though you are bad at the game). Now honestly this much needed struggle you are experiencing in raids, is what gives value to your rewards when you do beat them.

Ohoni.6057:

I suppose that’s true enough, to that point, but remember that I’m arguing in favor of making the system more accessible to more people, causing greater overall happiness, while you’re arguing in favor of keeping things small and exclusive, to favor those at the top at the expense of everyone else. You cannot argue that those two positions are morally neutral.

But the exclusivity I and also arenanet promotes has the most value to the larger audience. Trivialising rewards, handing them out like candies reduces the value of rewards to zero. Hence how can this be of the most utility to the players? As you see the exlusive skins optimise the value to the players. From an ulitarian approach, rewards should remain unique and exclusive.

Ohoni.6057:

I really don’t care how easy it might be for you. If you want to run easy mode, go right ahead. The point is to make it easy enough for lower skilled, lower geared pugs to get through it.

And the point I make, is that many players for no effort would get legendary armors, something that you cannot justify.

We already have people excluding others, what do you believe would change there? If anything, it would greatly reduce the number of players excluding others, since the consequences of coming up short would not be so severe.

I believe easy mode raids are for casual / unskilled players right? I do believe we have seen with dungeons/fractals that those players get excluded. So yeah I think the target audience of easy mode raids would infact be excluded, since more estabished players would also play easy mode for the easy rewards. If you remove the rewards, I think easy mode would be fine and indeed make raids more accessible to a larger audience ( I’m all for it). But than you would have to ask yourself, are resources not better spend at a new big new open world map?

Knowing the fight is by far the most important thing. Put in the time to learn the fights inside and out and you’ll be able to clear them even with mediocre gear and unorthodox builds – the DPS checks are not that tight once everyone knows what to do.

What people need to understand is that these are not dungeon-like encounters that you can waltz up to having watched a video and expect to master in a few pulls – the people that are clearing these every week, playing around with off-meta builds, setting speed records, etc. got there by putting in the hours. This content does not demand that you have fighter pilot reflexes or Starcraft tournament APM, only that you put in the time to learn how to be successful. You can be successful if you’re just willing to practice.

Oh, the irony of claiming others should care about making raids accessible to everyone and their pet goldfish, and then going all ‘I don’t care what you think’, or excluding the opinions of other players who have just as much of a right to voice their opinion since it doesn’t fit yours.

No, there’s no irony at all. The topic is on making them more accessible, Dutch was complaining that the proposals were too accessible. Dutch is no more the target audience for easy mode raids than the players who need easy mode raids are the target audience for the existing ones. If anyone wants to express their views on what easy mode should be from the perspective of someone who wants to actually play it and wants it to provide the best counter-experience to existing raids as possible, then that’s great, but if they are complaining that easy mode raid would be “too much better than the existing raid,” then that’s really not a constructive argument.

Anyway, I digress. I’d just like to point out that this was about raid accessibility, not raid rewards, and it seems like discussion of that is just shifting towards the latter.

Agreed, but people keep bringing it up.

You are taking away from my experience, the rewards don’t feel as rewarding anymore if I could have gotten them when afking an easy mode. The instant you yourself beat VG you will know what I mean.

. . .

No. I think you’re suffering from a common misconception. Let me guess, you struggled to beat VG, but then eventually you did it, and it felt great! And that great feeling was so overwhelming that it wiped away all the negative feelings of the grind to that point and you loved your raiding experiences overall, right?

Well that’s you.

And to be fair it’s a lot of people, certainly all those who put up with raiding in it’s current state, you aren’t exactly alone in that, but neither does it represent everyone in the world. I know for a fact that it doesn’t represent me. I’ve been gaming for over two and a half decades now. I’ve played easy games, I’ve played hard games, I’ve spent long hours chasing annoyingly difficult goals. I know who I am as a gamer, I know what works for me and what doesn’t. I know for a fact that when faced with a challenge like this, my best option is to stop. I know that if I push on, and if I eventually win, it will feel good, it might even feel great, but ultimately that feeling will be the short-lived one, and the annoyance of the grind to reach that point will be the stronger, more lasting impression for me, and ultimately I will feel like I just wasted a ton of time and energy on a stupid goal.

Now I’m not saying that you should feel this way too, I recognize that you react to things differently, and that’s great. You should have your punishing challenge if you enjoy it. Just don’t assume that everyone else is like you, that if they claim to not like something then it’s only because they lack the same experience you do, and that if only they’d adapt to your lifestyle they would become happy and satisfied gamers like you. No, different players truly do enjoy different experiences, and what makes you happy may NEVER make another player happy, so just trust them when they tell you that. Respect their choices, and help them to be happy on THEIR terms, not on your terms.

You are not sorry, if you were truely sorry you would drop the topic and start asking for legendary armor through open world content.

No, I am sorry that it would make you sad, I don’t want to make anyone sad. But there currently are people who are already sad, and if flipping them into the happy column causes you to flip into the sad column, then that is a price that should be paid. No change will satisfy everyone, adding raids to the game clearly upset a lot of people, but you have determined that their happiness should not matter if it means you get to be happy, and yet you expect others to prioritize your happiness. I want you to be happy, but if you can only be happy if many other people are sad, then I’m sorry, I prioritize those many other people over you.

Now honestly this much needed struggle you are experiencing in raids, is what gives value to your rewards when you do beat them.

For you, perhaps, but not for me.

And the point I make, is that many players for no effort would get legendary armors, something that you cannot justify.

It would still take time and effort, just of a different sort than the existing hard raid. In any case it is better than locking it behind the existing raids only.

I believe easy mode raids are for casual / unskilled players right? I do believe we have seen with dungeons/fractals that those players get excluded. So yeah I think the target audience of easy mode raids would infact be excluded, since more estabished players would also play easy mode for the easy rewards.

People would get excluded from specific groups, sure, but so what? There would be other groups. It’s not like raids have a cap to the total number of people trying to get in, if there were a hundred exclusionary groups being formed, then less capable players can always form a 101st.

It would be much easier to find an easy mode raid run for ANY player than if that same player were looking for a current raid group. Yes, in an easy mode run a weaker player might slow things down by a few minutes, but in hard mode they would completely kill the entire night. You cannot possibly make the argument that easy mode raids would be more exclusionary than the existing ones.

If you remove the rewards, I think easy mode would be fine. But than you would have to ask yourself, are resources not better spend at a new big new open world map?

Well first, they don’t have to, and should not remove the rewards, and second, it’s not like the two things would require equivalent resources, so it’s not an “either/or” situation.

They could make a training mode with legendary rewards. Capped rewards. Say it took 500 insights to make envoy armor, well you are capped at 1 insight per week in training mode. This insight would be a shaky box reward, so experienced raiders have an incentive to train others, and inexperienced raiders will take an unfeasible amount of time to farm envoy armor strictly from training mode. 10 years in fact. It is for training after all, and after enough training you should be migrating to normal mode.

Not sure about you but just a 10-man requirement just to enter the raid and attempt it is quite a bit accessible. There’s no real hard gates until after the first boss, and the 2nd boss hard gate in Spirit Vale requires Updraft, something you get early on playing in HoT…but I digress.

OP is actually requesting a nerf, you can drive it any other way but giving people who cannot do mechanics properly or manage their incoming damage an option to run more vitality or even toughness (if not in SV) demonstrates you want the bar reduced, even if the actual mechanics of the fight are not changed. It’s simple math that an elementalist who would go down standing in a red seeker before would now likely have an extra second of not being afk in it for instance…

I propose if you want to do this:

- Remove the Legendary Armor progress for this easier mode.
- Drop the shard acquisition and cap down to about half. Personally I would say make the cap 25 shards a week but I want to be at least generous here. Also this cap shares contribution with normal mode so you can’t just farm 150 shards between the two. If you did 100 shards in normal mode, you shouldn’t get anything for doing easy mode.

I suppose the big issue I have with this toned-down mode is that it won’t help train people who get accustomed with their health pool and/or toughness safety nets if they decide to attempt the real normal fight.

Have fun.

Ohoni.6057:

What we need is a fully realized ALTERNATIVE to the existing raids.

Fractals and dungeons

And by “we” you mean “me, Ohoni”
Only Anet know what the raiding community is like in terms of size and enthusiasm. Everything else in these several threads, some locked, is you demanding something they have shown no interest in developing.

Ohoni.6057:

Say it took 500 insights to make envoy armor, well you are capped at 1 insight per week in training mode.

That would take nine years to get enough to make the armor. That is a bit too long to be considered anything other than trolling those players.

It is for training after all, and after enough training you should be migrating to normal mode.

No. This sort of thinking REALLY needs to stop.

If you come into this discussion with the idea that whatever alterations result are merely to be used as a stepping stone to the “more important” existing raids, then stop.

Go home.

You have no constructive role to play here because you’re talking something else entirely.

What we need is a fully realized ALTERNATIVE to the existing raids. Not a hack-job joke, not a stepping stone, but a mode that players can be expected to genuinely enjoy as the only version of the content they will EVER experience. Obviously many of you like the existing raids for various reasons, and that’s great, so long as you accept as fact that there are players who will NEVER enjoy the existing raids in the way that you do.

A more accessible mode is not for you guys, you already have your version. This is for the players who are alienated by your version, the polar opposite of the players who played Arah and said “this is too easy, give me something with more challenge!” This version is not intended to “convert” player to your way of thinking, it is to satisfy those players by providing the experience they are looking for, start to finish.

Now, it can provide a training role, if players are looking for that, and should be designed in a way that provides that role, but first and foremost the goal must be to provide an entertaining and rewarding gameplay experience in and of itself, and any training benefits it may provide come secondary to that goal.

Can we please stop with the “we can have an easier mode, so long as it’s a complete cruel joke on those who enjoy it, and they quickly move on to our ‘better’ raids.” Accept that easy mode raids are to be a co-equal version of the content, just as valid a player choice as the existing ones are, or move on to a different discussion, because for all the whinging about how rewards are “off topic,” trying to discuss something that is not a “more accessible raid.” is certainly far more off topic.

No, you are mixing SEVERAL things now. One this topic was about accessibility. I have no need to pander to your delusions of ‘give me give me give me’. Two, enjoying the raid does not equate to getting the same rewards. People can find the boss fights enjoyable, YOU in particular are only looking at the rewards. Three, YOU are the one who needs to go home. YOU are the one who is twisting this topic into something rewards related.

The fact that you keep saying the rewards are part of the enjoyment is an axe to your own argument itself. If players playing the harder mode is supposed to find it enjoyable simply because its harder, why shouldn’t they get better rewards? According to you rewards are part of the enjoyment. If you have such a big following on your train of thought, that you are the ‘majority’, I’d have expected to see ample support in this topic. But I see no-one.

Who is to say the ‘easy mode – same rewards’ system is easy enough for you. What then, you call it too hard and they need to make ANOTHER easier mode with the same rewards? Get real.

yawn. -whatever you say- is nonsense. See, I can do it too.

Who is to say the ‘easy mode – same rewards’ system is easy enough for you. What then, you call it too hard and they need to make ANOTHER easier mode with the same rewards? Get real.

I don’t think there would need to be a third mode. I mean, the current version should stay how it is, the easier version the goal should be for it to be “easy enough,” so if it’s not easy enough, then that version would be altered until it’s right.

If you mean “what if it’s easy enough to satisfy most players, but not Ohoni,” well that just wouldn’t happen. I mean I’m not the best player in the game, but I’ve very far from the worst, so any mode that would satisfy the average would be plenty easy for me, so it’s a moot point.

I think so long as they target the balance level of the Dungeon Paths and relatively low level Fractals they should do just fine.

In order to stay on topic, I think there are several solutions to make raids fights more accessible.
First, we have the people that would like to enjoy the actual raid fights but can’t actually for different reasons. they could use a training mode made for them to access more easily the normal mode, and then enjoy the raid Anet made. Several posts were made about it.

Secondly, we have the people that are not at all interested in the normal raid, but still want to enjoy à pièce of the raid. They don’t need / want to learn mechanics, but are interested in the rewards (for some it’s actually the main reason). They don’t need much mechanisms, and just want a stressless environnement without risk of wiping. Level difficulty dungeon and lower fractal.

The problem is that the easy modes for this 2 kinds of people are not the same. I guess only Anet know which solution can be the best for their game. Personaly, I think the first solution is the best one, because more people could then enjoy the work Anet put in normal raids.

The problem is the debate over the reward. We have two problems here.

1) You have one side that want the same reward in less quantity so they need to raid multiple times the easy mode to reach the same level of rewards the normal raid give you in 1 time. On you have on the player that think that an easy mode should give you less quantity, but also exclude the unique skin rewards, including or not the Legendary armor. Both have a point and both situation is in the game right now. You have the legendary back item which can be done just by reach Emerald or Ruby over several seasons. You don’t need to reach diamond or Legendary. You have all the legendary weapons that you can craft rapidly if you have a lot of gold or slowly craft as you accumulate gold over a year as a casual. You have ascended gear that drop at all level, just less in low level. But you also have exemple of the other side. You don’t get dungeon token for the skins in Story mode. You don’t get Golden Skin, Golden Relics or the Fractal Tonikittenil higher level.

Personnally, I think that the big problem is mostly because of the Legendary armor. If Anet could add another legendary armor somewhere else in the game that would fix a lot of problems on that side.

2) The second problems with reward is the fear by raider that the reward will of easy mode will limit your reward in normal raid or that it will be high enough that the raid community will shrink significantly, making hard to complete the normal raid. There is numerous ways, this can happen. Let’s keep in mind that Anet was never great at balancing the reward in the past and this kind of situation happened in other games. Thinks like shards is particularly dangerous because they have a cap and they represent maybe 2/3 of the current raid reward. You already reach the cap of 100 shards after 5-6 boss. If the easy raid give you shards and you can cap it in easy mode raid, which would you do normal raid?

I would like if there is something like a training mode.
Easy enough that you can make a few mistakes without wipe and maybe no timelimit.
There should be rewards like the tenth of the normal mode and one shard for every boss.

I suppose that’s true enough, to that point, but remember that I’m arguing in favor of making the system more accessible to more people, causing greater overall happiness, while you’re arguing in favor of keeping things small and exclusive, to favor those at the top at the expense of everyone else. You cannot argue that those two positions are morally neutral.

I’ll grant that making an easier mode for raids that had zero impact on the enjoyment and satisfaction of those playing the harder mode would please more players, overall. However, I’m not convinced that it would please enough “more players” to justify the expense. It might impact the harder raids if the same team did it. It might impact other new content favored by other players if Anet pulled resources from elsewhere to implement it. Before you say again how it would be easy to make an easy raid, ANet’s representative has stated that only Anet devs are in a position to know that.

When it comes to exclusive rewards, though, you are arguing that one demographic, the size of which you cannot demonstrate, would be happier if ANet adopted your proposal. What is demonstrably so is that it would also cause unhappiness for a different demographic, the size of which neither of us can demonstrate. For all you know, your proposals would result in less overall satisfaction.

If there’s any right or wrong in this part of the argument about raid rewards, it lies in the following.

• ANet advertised early on that rare skins would be exclusive rewards in diverse content, specifically harder content. Thus, it’s likely that many players bought the game with that expectation because that’s what they wanted. Changing their approach at this point would be a breach of trust and faith with those players.
• ANet never stated that any player could avoid any content they did not like and have access to any skin they happened to fancy. Thus, no one should have bought the game with that expectation. While some players might indeed think that, “Play how you want!” means exactly that, they’ve read something into ANet advertisements that is not there, and have thus deceived themselves.

Finally, there is no “at the expense of” in the raid reward discussion. The path to those rewards is the same for every player. Choosing not to follow that path is in fact a choice.

Raids do not need to be made more accessible. They are completely fine where they are now.

Anyone asking for an ‘easy mode’ is entitled and selfish.

Raids are already easy. They just require effort, which seems to be a foreign concept to these people.

Learn to adapt yourself to the content, don’t expect ArenaNet to adapt the content to you.

Ohoni – All this effort you have put into white-knighting and complaining on the forums for the past few months could have been put into raiding instead and then we would all be spared from having to read more posts like this.

My biggest gripe on raid and their accessibility at the moment is that to reach the dps check you are too much dependent on the perfect items (food, runes and sigils brings a lot of dps) and on the 80+ % quickness uptime. So in the end it is better to be rich and have a good mesmer (a good druid helps too) than having skills.
Rotations on many professions are super simple or non existent and fights mechanisms are quite easy to get after the first few tries and they are not deciding factors for a long time.

As for the (yet again) diverted discussion about reward and easy mode, I could maybe see the point of having an easy mode but only if the only reward would be magnetite shards only to buy basic ascended gear, and maybe some upgrade component (sigils/runes/food), not even exclusive skins…. don’t even talk about armor precursors. An easy mode should only prepare people to fight for real. But again, while the fight mechanisms are fun and well thought, they are not difficult to understand at all. As I said dishing out the max dps is the part of the fights you have to learn and to practice your rotation an easy mode won’t help too much. Time would be better used on the training golem.

I’m indifferent on most of the topics at hand, but I have a question for those who are strongly in favor of “easy” mode raids.

What are the distinct differences that you see between an raids and fractals/dungeons?

At a very high level here is what I see the differences are:
- Raids have 5 more players
- Raids are more challenging
- Raids have exclusive rewards

In an easy mode raid, which of those are still true?

In my eyes it is just the 5 more players. The amount that you reduce the exclusivity of the rewards must be appropriate to the amount that you reduce the challenge. I competed as a team athlete at a very high level for over 20 years and that has rubbed off on my opinions outside of athletics.

Due to that, I believe that if you trivialize the challenge you must remove all of the exclusivity of the rewards. If “easy” mode raids are just as easy as low level fractals and dungeons, then the rewards should be of the same level as low fractals and dungeons. If “easy” mode raids are just as challenging as higher end fractals, then they should have the same level rewards as higher fractals.

Maybe there is a degree of difficulty that is in between current raids and high end fractals. In that case there could be an argument for reduced rewards, but I don’t think that is the difficulty scale that folks in this discussion are asking for.

Getting millions of participation awards should never equate to an Olympic gold medal in any circumstance.

So if you remove “Raids are more challenging” and “Raids have exclusive rewards” then all you have left is “Raids have 5 more players”. Is this really what the “easy mode raids” community is looking for? Dungeons with 5 more players? What is the gain? Why don’t they just work on fixing dungeons/fractals…oh wait they are doing that.

ButterPeanut.9746:

I’m indifferent on most of the topics at hand, but I have a question for those who are strongly in favor of “easy” mode raids.

What are the distinct differences that you see between an raids and fractals/dungeons?

At a very high level here is what I see the differences are:
- Raids have 5 more players
- Raids are more challenging
- Raids have exclusive rewards

In an easy mode raid, which of those are still true?

In my eyes it is just the 5 more players. The amount that you reduce the exclusivity of the rewards must be appropriate to the amount that you reduce the challenge. I competed as a team athlete at a very high level for over 20 years and that has rubbed off on my opinions outside of athletics.

Due to that, I believe that if you trivialize the challenge you must remove all of the exclusivity of the rewards. If “easy” mode raids are just as easy as low level fractals and dungeons, then the rewards should be of the same level as low fractals and dungeons. If “easy” mode raids are just as challenging as higher end fractals, then they should have the same level rewards as higher fractals.

Maybe there is a degree of difficulty that is in between current raids and high end fractals. In that case there could be an argument for reduced rewards, but I don’t think that is the difficulty scale that folks in this discussion are asking for.

Getting millions of participation awards should never equate to an Olympic gold medal in any circumstance.

So if you remove “Raids are more challenging” and “Raids have exclusive rewards” then all you have left is “Raids have 5 more players”. Is this really what the “easy mode raids” community is looking for? Dungeons with 5 more players? What is the gain? Why don’t they just work on fixing dungeons/fractals…oh wait they are doing that.

I think you simplify the situation a bit too much. I mean just take a look at fractal. Not everybody can do T4. Either because they lack the skills, experience or gear. But they can still experience the content in T1, 2 or 3. They can still have some sort of drop, but in less quantity. But they don’t have access to every type of reward. For exemple, fractal skin used to be a higher level drop, now it,s golden skin that are. I think that’s what most people would want. Because in the end, not everybody is at the same place. Some people are better than other, some don’t have a team, other don’t have the gold to gear up as much or on as many character. So the end result is that currently a big portion of the community don’t have any fun playing the current raid.

Does the content be created to be enjoyed by 100% of the community? No because everybody have their preference. Should to destroy the content to reach more people, absolutely not. But if we can find a way to make the raid more accessible to more people, without destroying part of the current raid, why shouldn’t we?

It’s a hard solution to find because everybody have their own opinion of what an easy mode should be and what reward should they give. But that’s not a reason to shut down the idea completely. It’s a legitimate demand, it’s just hard to reach a good balanced solution.

Hey everybody, we’re locking this thread as it is headed into becoming a continuation of a recently locked thread about raids.

Rest assured, the Raids Team is aware of this thread and of the sentiments expressed within it.

Thanks.