Guild Wars 2

Without adding Holy trinity?

The same way they did it in fractals?

Just add larger skill pools and more complex mechanics. Love how people think holy trinity is needed for challenging content. How small minded can you be?

Fight 2 Lupi’s at once! :b

This.

Can I use non-profession specific roles, or does that count as holy trinity?

Challenging content has to come in the form of complex encounter design which mandates the use of specific game mechanics that are not necessarily profession specific.

When I think of challenging content in this game I think of fire shaman or Lupicus. Fire shaman doesn’t mandate reflects, but is made much much easier with them. Lupicus is kind of a mixed bag but the big thing lots of people bring, especially if soloing, is knowledge and endurance regen.

GW2 is very close to being a pure action game. Are you really asking how action based games can be challenging? GW2 is all about active abilities: dodge, blocks, invuln, blind etc. Challenging content should then test the players on their responsiveness. GW2 needs more encounters with multiple enemies during boss fights, and phased bosses that show different behavior during different phases. Lupicus and Grawl are good examples, but they could do more to fully make it feel necessary to have a competent group and not just one or two decent players in a party of 5. An encounter like Lupicus, but with sidebosses spawning during each phases would do a lot for the game.

Holy trinity games are not challenging, they’re more like puzzles, and once the “puzzle” has been solved (the right rotation and party setup) it turns into a banal routine.

I played holy trinity games many years in my life, as a healer, and yeah I could finish the hardest PvE content competitively by skill clicking. I don’t want that.

I fully agree with Nikaido: Challenging content should then test the players on their responsiveness.

This means that players should face a bit of unexpected content, such as randomness in event timings, or random enemy characteristics (diablo-like).

But more importantly, PvE gameplay needs to get closer to PvP gameplay. For instance mobs need to be less static, they need to have less health but more engaging mechanics, and killing enemies should not always be the primary objective.

I really don’t want PVE in this game to become like the PVP, some people may enjoy it but I don’t. I like how PVE is designed for this game, I think there’s plenty of room to ramp up the difficulty without making it like PVP.

I honestly think you could probably transplant Twintania (link goes to a guide and spoils much of the fight, although some things are glossed over) from FFXIV into GW2, tweak all of the numbers a bit, and there’d only really be one or two mechanics — Fireballs in the second phase, and Death Sentence throughout — that you’d have to change in order for the end result to work, despite the lack of a holy trinity in GW2.

And there are probably quite a few other raid bosses that could be transplanted in a similar fashion.

I’m still thinking on an example of what I might find cool as a more original boss fight for GW2.

I wouldn’t.

I find dungeons challenging enough.

runs and hides

Jerus.4350:

I really don’t want PVE in this game to become like the PVP, some people may enjoy it but I don’t. I like how PVE is designed for this game, I think there’s plenty of room to ramp up the difficulty without making it like PVP.

What parts of PvP do you not like?

Otherwise, I assume that you don’t like moving around.

Nikaido.3457:

GW2 is very close to being a pure action game. Are you really asking how action based games can be challenging? GW2 is all about active abilities: dodge, blocks, invuln, blind etc. Challenging content should then test the players on their responsiveness. GW2 needs more encounters with multiple enemies during boss fights, and phased bosses that show different behavior during different phases. Lupicus and Grawl are good examples, but they could do more to fully make it feel necessary to have a competent group and not just one or two decent players in a party of 5. An encounter like Lupicus, but with sidebosses spawning during each phases would do a lot for the game.

Holy trinity games are not challenging, they’re more like puzzles, and once the “puzzle” has been solved (the right rotation and party setup) it turns into a banal routine.

No, I’m asking how GW2 can be challenging.

runeblade.7514:

Jerus.4350:

I really don’t want PVE in this game to become like the PVP, some people may enjoy it but I don’t. I like how PVE is designed for this game, I think there’s plenty of room to ramp up the difficulty without making it like PVP.

What parts of PvP do you not like?

Otherwise, I assume that you don’t like moving around.

I don’t like the “passive damage”, now it’s not really passive but there’s so much going on you can’t possibly avoid it all, and avoiding some auto attacks would leave you without your tools to avoid the big hitters or nasty effects.

I quite enjoy that once you master most fights in PVE you can go through unscathed. I’m all for making that harder, but I don’t want everything to be an attrition based fight.

I guess that’s the best way I can put it. I’m not against some content like that but I don’t want it to become the new norm is all.

PS. I very much do like moving around, in fact you’ll often find me jumping side to side while waiting around sitting still is boring!

Bosses designed by someone who has played a video game before. New bosses are getting much better but we get a boss like once every 6 months so lol.

runeblade.7514:

No, I’m asking how GW2 can be challenging.

I think the same general techniques used to make content challenging in any MMO would work in Guild Wars 2.

The main headache I can foresee isn’t making things difficult without a holy trinity, it’s more to do with providing the right sort of feedback to players so that fights feel fair and so that when things do go wrong, players have a decent chance of figuring out what’s up.

If people’s collective knowledge of the new fights gets polluted in the same way it did in the Silverwastes, then this expansion is going to be a disaster.

To a point, this seems to me to be one of the main things that the trinity actually helped with, and this is probably the real underlying problem that leads certain kinds of players to complain about the lack of a trinity.

Underworld GW1

Add a more complex AI that cc.

Basically, the AI has remedial ability to predict that you are going to spike and the ai will counter instead 50% of the time.

Lower health
Lower damage.
Allow the ai to use short duration cripple
Add more variety of cc that does little damage

I agree with Jerus, I would not like having PvE like PvP because of how much I hate the PvP in GW2.

I would love new mechanics and more sophisticated AI (especially when it comes to thinks like, Berserker Abomination in Arah P2 zzzzz), but I don’t want anything like GW2 PvP fighting. I do not choose to avoid it like the plague for no reason afterall.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Underworld GW1

You mean this UW?

The point isn’t to call you out or anything but rather just to play devil’s advocate. I play a lot of GW1 still and I can tell you a lot of what people say about it is through rose tinted glasses.

Truth is, there are no real challenges in games that cannot be overcome through time and practice. I know it’s not really on the topic of the thread but I hope people keep in mind that content needs to constantly evolve and change with the playerbase in order to stay challenging.

UW, FoW, Deep, Urgoz, even SF used to be really difficult when they first came out. DoA was extremely hard when it first came out as well. They are all on speedmode now and can be done in extremely low times.

The longer people play, the more strategies and synergies are discovered and developed to make runs as fast and efficient as possible. As a result, you get less and less “generic pug” team makeup. GW2 is somewhat unique in that regard.

GW1 has much less room for class variance and “diversity” despite people liking to believe otherwise. There is simply no room for a W/Mo in SCs.

That’s something to keep in mind when designing difficult content.

Totally true Saint. All my favorite raids of the past were eventually put on farm status, even mastered to the point that we would demolish it in what seemed like relative ease.

Perhaps my favorite (it’s tough to decide) was Paradox Wave in DCUO, it had 4 side bosses and a main boss, however you could fight the main boss strait up and periodically he’d release the side bosses to join in. However, if you brought the main boss down to 35% health he’d release whatever was left and trash mobs in place of any fallen bosses and periodic trash from then on (trash could still kill pretty easily of course). Before I quit that game we were able to do a 6 minute run of that and had ever plan and possibility of doing it in 5 mins by utilizing that mechanic and burning everything to the ground.

So while this was a fight that the metrics said only 2% of the players beat in the first about 5 months it was out, and one that was about as tough as the game ever saw, we were not only able to trivialize it but push it to the point that we utterly crushed it to the point that we pushed it to the brink of what it could give us for challenge and still came out on top, and it was pretty easy doing so.

Eventually everything falls to good planning and practice. No matter the challenge people will be able to conquer it.

However, that’s where good AI and randomness comes in. The more random and the greater the deviation from the standard is the less likely it is for you to master it. Take Battle Toads for example, regarded as one of the hardest games ever, in the end it became a game of memorization, the people able to complete it could do so blindfolded because it wasn’t about reaction but about knowing what was coming. That’s why good variation and AI allows for a greater level of difficulty. Lupi is one of those. I think anyone who’s done a solo would agree that the Kicks really are the most challenging part of the fight, however we know that it’s generally (like 99% true) not going to kick twice in a row, and there’s a timer on attacks so they come every about 3-4 count. So we can anticipate it and personally I often dodge out before the kick even begins to happen as a safety precaution. If they made that timing more variable it’d greatly increase the difficulty of that encounter.

I guess I’m kinda rambling now. But TL; DR I completely agree with what you said Saint but, I think variation can maintain difficulty even after heavy practice as it’d lower the ease of anticipation. Overall I just ask that they at least give me .4s reaction time tells as .3 would simple push me out of being able to do it

Jerus.4350:

Lupi is one of those. I think anyone who’s done a solo would agree that the Kicks really are the most challenging part of the fight,

Nuh uh, it’s definitely surviving the phase 2>3 transition. RNG such challenge much skill.

Jerus.4350:

however we know that it’s generally (like 99% true) not going to kick twice in a row, and there’s a timer on attacks so they come every about 3-4 count.

SO MANY LIES

I not only have him double kick very very often, but I’ve even seen triple kick 3 times total. It’s a lot more common than you think… :p

P.S. if you chill him, it’s almost guaranteed double kick.

Purple Miku.7032:

Jerus.4350:

Lupi is one of those. I think anyone who’s done a solo would agree that the Kicks really are the most challenging part of the fight,

Nuh uh, it’s definitely surviving the phase 2>3 transition. RNG such challenge much skill.

Jerus.4350:

however we know that it’s generally (like 99% true) not going to kick twice in a row, and there’s a timer on attacks so they come every about 3-4 count.

SO MANY LIES

I not only have him double kick very very often, but I’ve even seen triple kick 3 times total. It’s a lot more common than you think… :p

P.S. if you chill him, it’s almost guaranteed double kick.

:D

Honestly, maybe I just have very good luck but I think I could count my double kicks on one hand and I’ve never seen the infamous triple kick.

And yeah… Phase3 transition… much hate. Nothing worse than getting that then instant Lift, using withdraw( Or burning retreat, i’ve had both of these do this) thinking “muahaha easy time” and rolling all the way back into a stray projectile only to get downed… SMH

Challenging content eh? How about unskippable random encounters?
Kindof like with the troll in AC bursting out of a wall (except without him being optional)
Or the mossman instability where he pops up to say hi.

Now imagine that with lupi

• Move away from the bossfight approach.

Some bossfights here and there are nice, but there’s hardly any need on making most relevant fights to consist on killing the big guy.
GW2 combat system is more suited for fighting several enemies at once or, at least, for bosses to have some serious add support. This opens up A LOT of possibilities for more challenging encounters.

• Make less predictable fights

So it becomes much more difficult to develop a fixed strategy.
For a fight against several enemy waves or against a boss that summons adds, this could be achieved by just randomizing the nature and spawning location of those waves/adds.

• Encourage more splitting

Some old GW1 content, like FoW or UW, consists on a quite large amount of quests, spread over a quite large map, that must be completed in any order.
While it’s possible to complete them sequentially while keeping the whole group together, splitting and having different players fulfilling different tasks at the same time often yields better results. There’s not enough of this in GW2.

Saint.5647:

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Underworld GW1

You mean this UW?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qqq_5XjPDJY

The point isn’t to call you out or anything but rather just to play devil’s advocate. I play a lot of GW1 still and I can tell you a lot of what people say about it is through rose tinted glasses.

Truth is, there are no real challenges in games that cannot be overcome through time and practice. I know it’s not really on the topic of the thread but I hope people keep in mind that content needs to constantly evolve and change with the playerbase in order to stay challenging.

UW, FoW, Deep, Urgoz, even SF used to be really difficult when they first came out. DoA was extremely hard when it first came out as well. They are all on speedmode now and can be done in extremely low times.

The longer people play, the more strategies and synergies are discovered and developed to make runs as fast and efficient as possible. As a result, you get less and less “generic pug” team makeup. GW2 is somewhat unique in that regard.

GW1 has much less room for class variance and “diversity” despite people liking to believe otherwise. There is simply no room for a W/Mo in SCs.

That’s something to keep in mind when designing difficult content.

Why I sugested UW? Because I liked the team-splitting strategy to complete it and the fact that it was way more punishing than any GW2 dungeon, why? Because if you failed a quest, your party would be wiped and you would be kicked out.

That’s why I pointed it out. No matter how hard you make something, it’s bound to become easy after time and practice. That’s not an excuse to stop making it is it? Like Vargamonth pointed out, I want more challenging content that requires a team to split up into several parts in order to complete it faster, but also keeping that splitting as a not required thing, for casual groups.

Soloing dungeons is one of the best experiences in GW2. Imagine if you got several players soloing several encounters at the same time. The experience can be diversified if players swap around their favorite spot to a new one they havent tried.

the problem is the run ,stacking way of making dungeon … ok you make them fast but there is no satisfaction …. stay stacked and spamming skills is something that does not seem fighting to me …. only button smashing …

PierPiero.9142:

the problem is the run ,stacking way of making dungeon … ok you make them fast but there is no satisfaction …. stay stacked and spamming skills is something that does not seem fighting to me …. only button smashing …

If you think there’s nothing going on during runs beside just spamming skills in stacks you’ve been massively carried by your groups. Try running with 4 other players who really think like you. Fraps it and upload on youtube for our entertainment’s sake too.

I would do more complex fight like Lupi where you need to learn about 10 differents attack throughout the fight.

I would also bring back some one shot dead attack (no down, but dead). We use to have some of these while we couldn’t have enough AR to survive any Agony shot in fractal 40+. One shot of agony would kill you directly, putting pressure on the player to dodge every single agony attack.

Removing the down state would make stuff more challenging. Right now, some boss have small mobs around them, from whom you can rally. We would need to be far more attentive to not get killed.

I would use group of different mobs use different complementary skills. For exemple, in Arah you have Technician that stun you, deadeyes that have big damage in range and run away for you, while beserker run in your face. You need to make some target priority there or bring specific skills to counter them efficiently.

Fractal also have a couple of good idea for more challenging content.

I dont agree with just one shot mechanics. Making things excessively unforgiving isnt the ideal way to make things challenging. Yes it keeps you on your toes. But it also really kittenes you off if you lag or get trolled by RNG (thief/ele on lupi p2->p3 transition).

More attacks. Yes. Make attacks hit hard. Yes. Make them one shot. No. Non timegated combat puzzle mechanics and phases(archy seals). Yes please.

Multi boss fights are also fun (molten duo). And bosses which spawn waves of adds can also be good. Also you can give bosses interruptible attacks which strip boons/cleanse conditions/grant buffs/heal themselves.

spoj.9672:

I dont agree with just one shot mechanics. Making things excessively unforgiving isnt the ideal way to make things challenging. Yes it keeps you on your toes. But it also really kittenes you off if you lag or get trolled by RNG (thief/ele on lupi p2->p3).

More attacks. Yes. Make attacks hit hard. Yes. Make them one shot. No. Non timegated combat puzzle mechanics and phases(archy seals). Yes please.

Well those attack shouldn’t RNG at all and personally I coudn’t care less about lag in dungeon. In WvW i get it, but if you always lag in dungeon, you may need to call your internet provider.

I was thinking mostly of the Shaman in Fractal. The agony arrow was such a nice attack to dodge back when it a one shot dead attack. Of course abusing these attack but using them everywhere, would make the game tedious.

If they can give the boss the ability to:

• Dodge out of the AoE once in a while
• Dish out CC like a pro, then
• Put a condi carpet (Poison, Burning, Bleeding, Chill, Cripple) on you or
• Immobilize you and deal a big hit attack
• Have more unblockable CC/attack
• Have a block-retaliation type of attack – for example, if the boss successfully blocks your attack he then successively deal multiple quick hits on you.
• Have more projectile-hate skills and melee-denying reflex, for example the clockwork nightmare tree in TAA.
• Have partners in crime
• Have weapon swapping, mobility

Giving creatures the ability to dodge would in my opinion not make them more challenging but rather make them more annoying to fight agaisnt. We have to draw the distinction between those two aspects.

Weapon-swapping bosses with different abilities and mechanics with each weapon is definitely an interesting concept. Ashyn from fractals does this but the concept is not explored very well there, because they represent phases, and not random-dynamic weapon swapping shifting the encounter’s state. It could be so much better.

Double all health and reduce cooldowns.

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Giving creatures the ability to dodge would in my opinion not make them more challenging but rather make them more annoying to fight agaisnt. We have to draw the distinction between those two aspects.

Weapon-swapping bosses with different abilities and mechanics with each weapon is definitely an interesting concept. Ashyn from fractals does this but the concept is not explored very well there, because they represent phases, and not random-dynamic weapon swapping shifting the encounter’s state. It could be so much better.

It already happens in HoT. Resistance is futile.

Wethospu.6437:

Double all health and reduce cooldowns.

^^ This would do nicely for most stuff honestly. Though I’d hold off on the health addition in HoTW

What about adding in 2 party content?

Something that needs to be done with 2 parties doing 2 disctincly different things in the same instance?

For example. A dungeon with 2 seperate paths, and a party in each path. But party A cannot progress beyond a certain point until party B completes a certain activity (i.e. puzzle, boss, etc.).
So party A has to defend their position until party B completes it’s task. If party B fails, Party A has to do a new task to allow them to continue.

Just a random idea…not sure exactly how it would play out, but it could be fun.

i would make challenging content like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qIVkFINBSQ

and tweak the numbers so tanks arent needed.

No content can be challenging forever. New stuff can be hard but after you do it for 3 years…

Iris Ng.9845:

If they can give the boss the ability to:

• Dodge out of the AoE once in a while
• Dish out CC like a pro, then
• Put a condi carpet (Poison, Burning, Bleeding, Chill, Cripple) on you or
• Immobilize you and deal a big hit attack
• Have more unblockable CC/attack
• Have a block-retaliation type of attack – for example, if the boss successfully blocks your attack he then successively deal multiple quick hits on you.
• Have more projectile-hate skills and melee-denying reflex, for example the clockwork nightmare tree in TAA.
• Have partners in crime
• Have weapon swapping, mobility

addendum: you will have absolutely no fun fighting this encounter

It was quite a challenge to kill the four silvers northwest of brie solo without consumables. But not really hard to be honest. Lupicus was a challenge over 2 years ago, too, when his mechanics were not really known (except from our grand master weth) and I suffered of constant 0,5-1.0s delay. What I’d think of as challenging right now would be solo’ing two frenzying lupi’s at the same time. Alternatively 10 in a group, with mechanics requiring to kill them within a ten second frame.

Edit: northeast…

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

….

^
That’s the main difference between PvE and PvP.
Once you know the strat to face an encounter in PvE it isn’t really “challenging” anymore , the success then is just depending on how much effort and tries you put in. Let’s be honest, for example even the slowest skillclicker will defeat lupicus solo if he deals with him often enough. The “real” challenge was to find out how to do it.
That’s also the reason why I was kittening impressed by weths first lupicus solo and didn’t really care about any further “sub 6”, " sub 5". Everyone who spents enough time and effort is able to compete with the elite in this area.

On the other hand, in PvP you can spend 3-4 years and it’s probable that you won’t reach top tier lvl, though.
The big difference is that your oppenents always act differently it requires much more things than simply repeat what you’ve learned to be successfull. Even the right keybinds and the camera work suddenly becomes very important. For example I know many skillclickers ( my brother was one of them) who are part of different PvE elite guilds – just imagine those people in PvP.

So if you want to get challenging PvE content you would need advanced and intelligent content that changes – that is unpredictable. Content that takes A LONG TIME to find out the right way to be even successfull.

Otherwise you would just stay with content in which the succsess is depending on how much you try.

On PvP your opponents also learn and get better. Which would be comparable of having new instanced content once in a while.

maha.7902:

Iris Ng.9845:

If they can give the boss the ability to:

• Dodge out of the AoE once in a while
• Dish out CC like a pro, then
• Put a condi carpet (Poison, Burning, Bleeding, Chill, Cripple) on you or
• Immobilize you and deal a big hit attack
• Have more unblockable CC/attack
• Have a block-retaliation type of attack – for example, if the boss successfully blocks your attack he then successively deal multiple quick hits on you.
• Have more projectile-hate skills and melee-denying reflex, for example the clockwork nightmare tree in TAA.
• Have partners in crime
• Have weapon swapping, mobility

addendum: you will have absolutely no fun fighting this encounter

It is as fun as Courtyard. I promise.

It might make sense to put the floor on the downed penalty at silver or gold for fights that are intended to be particularly hard, just to make absolutely certain that groups can’t rely on it as a crutch.

Going so far as to remove the downed state for hard content seems a little excessive to me.

It is as fun as Courtyard. I promise.

so about as fun as having my eyeballs extracted

So if you want to get challenging PvE content you would need advanced and intelligent content that changes – that is unpredictable. Content that takes A LONG TIME to find out the right way to be even successfull.

and if MMO developers knew how to do this they would already be doing it since it would cut their workload post-release down a lot since people will still be enjoying it and figuring it out rather than having to rush new content out

NoTrigger.8396:

i would make challenging content like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qIVkFINBSQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3NRt8Mse3o

and tweak the numbers so tanks arent needed.

I forgot that a large scale fight could actually exist without turning into a particle effet potato mash. The dumb things you get used to with GW2..

I would want to see the condi cap removed, allowing for variation in tyhe world, introduce some 5000+ toughness bosses and unsettle the present meta.

As this change would be changing the meta there would be a new optimum and therefore more variation. If we’d get a whole dungeon full of husks and earth elementals now, without any updates to the conditions sysem it would be utterly frustrating…

But I can see the options it presents….

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Saint.5647:

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Underworld GW1

…Bunch of stuff I rambled on about…

Why I sugested UW? Because I liked the team-splitting strategy to complete it and the fact that it was way more punishing than any GW2 dungeon, why? Because if you failed a quest, your party would be wiped and you would be kicked out.

That’s why I pointed it out. No matter how hard you make something, it’s bound to become easy after time and practice. That’s not an excuse to stop making it is it? Like Vargamonth pointed out, I want more challenging content that requires a team to split up into several parts in order to complete it faster, but also keeping that splitting as a not required thing, for casual groups.

Soloing dungeons is one of the best experiences in GW2. Imagine if you got several players soloing several encounters at the same time. The experience can be diversified if players swap around their favorite spot to a new one they havent tried.

Yeah, I agree. Again, I wasn’t trying to kitten on your idea but rather to put some things in perspective.

UW wasn’t always a split party dungeon. It did evolve into it however. I loved running most of the GW1 dungeons, especially DoA. I still do when I find the time and desire to do so.

pdavis.8031:

What about adding in 2 party content?

Something that needs to be done with 2 parties doing 2 disctincly different things in the same instance?

For example. A dungeon with 2 seperate paths, and a party in each path. But party A cannot progress beyond a certain point until party B completes a certain activity (i.e. puzzle, boss, etc.).
So party A has to defend their position until party B completes it’s task. If party B fails, Party A has to do a new task to allow them to continue.

Just a random idea…not sure exactly how it would play out, but it could be fun.

These are all cool ideas for raid content. It has been done and it’s been done well. I would like to see content like this BUT not in the open world. That said, I don’t have kitten for choice in the matter, so open world might have to do.

Like anything else though, it will come down to repetition. Jerus said it earlier as well. Once difficult encounters WILL get reduced to farm-mode, and that’s ok. It just means it’s time to move on.

robertul.3679:

No content can be challenging forever. New stuff can be hard but after you do it for 3 years…

Saint.5647:

- basically a wall of text -

All is vain… -hugs-

maha.7902:

So if you want to get challenging PvE content you would need advanced and intelligent content that changes – that is unpredictable. Content that takes A LONG TIME to find out the right way to be even successfull.

and if MMO developers knew how to do this they would already be doing it since it would cut their workload post-release down a lot since people will still be enjoying it and figuring it out rather than having to rush new content out

This has been done in other action games, not MMO though (to my knowledge). One of the main reasons why it is hard to implement diablo-like systems in an MMO is the lore: random enemy characteristics and random events are not very immersion-friendly. However, GW2 devs have conveniently built an area in the game where virtually anything is possible: fractals of the mists with their mistlock instabilities! Therefore if there is one MMO where PvE could be re-imagined to be challenging and provide endless replayability it is definitely GW2. The canvas is in place, now all they need is the will to make a masterpiece.