Guild Wars 2

I enjoyed dungeons despite the communities general distaste for them, this waypoint fiasco has actually ruined this for me, I did Sorrow’s Embrace story mode for the first time today after doing 75% of the damage to The Iron Forgeman I dodge rolled into the lava, I died and for the next 10 minutes I sat there as my group dealt the last 25%. I didn’t get to see the fruits of my labor, all I could see was the fragments of the boss that floated away underneath the lava, I then had to use a waypoint and run back to my group.

I can’t use a waypoint while alive while a party member is in combat, is this intended?

What is the general consensus of this change? I’ve noticed far fewer people on “gw2lfg” since the patch.

My personal opinion is that the developers felt that “res-rushing” wasn’t intended and isn’t how they wanted players to play through their content but it’s better than no one playing their content is it not?

I’ve only completed story mode on three of the dungeons so far. Last night being the first where I couldn’t get to a waypoint when I died. I love this game and have had little to no critisim about it since launch but I have to say that this new way of “working” together in a dungeon doesn’t really work at all. A-Net, can’t we meet half way? Say if three of our party dies, can’t we be able to use a waypoint and get back into the fight? It really is NO fun to just lie there watching the remainder of the party get picked off one by one and not be able to help. Please rethink this.

Unlucky Giles and I am guessing they couldn’t have revived you even if they tried?

The idea behind the waypoint change is admirable in terms of getting people to work better together but hearing stories like this makes it sound really unfair.

In AC story the other day two of my team mates were downed by the Troll right at the end of the fight. We couldn’t res them on time before the Troll died; we got the rewards and they go nothing. This really sucks, they did a lot of work in that fight, but we just couldn’t get to them to res.

Again, I think this is to promote the sale of pay to win revive orbs. I hope im wrong about that.

iced cooly.5794:

In AC story the other day two of my team mates were downed by the Troll right at the end of the fight. We couldn’t res them on time before the Troll died; we got the rewards and they go nothing. This really sucks, they did a lot of work in that fight, but we just couldn’t get to them to res.

I think you meant explorable. And they didn’t get any rewards, not because they were dead (I died at the end of certain fights and still got my reward) but because you probably had the Troll fight Kohler and then fought the Troll with the remainder of its life (~10 %). To get drops, you have to do a certain amount of damage, and your teammates probably didn’t.
Or it was a bug (there’s a thread around here on this). But being dead doesn’t prevent you from getting drops.

It was the Cave troll in story mode (we kiled him just before taking on Master Nente). I think it is like a bonus event or something. But I hope your right that maybe it was either a bug or they didn’t put enough damage in.

It would seem unfair if you put a lot of work in then got nothing for being downed and your team mates couldn’t or wouldn’t res you.

Can anyone confirm this for sure?

they already have mecahnics in many that encouraged teamwork, like the fractal with the dredge and the pressure plates. This change made that excruciatingly difficult, the weak link is separated and no one can res anyone, so you have to force wipe at times to regroup.

RedStar.4218:

iced cooly.5794:

In AC story the other day two of my team mates were downed by the Troll right at the end of the fight. We couldn’t res them on time before the Troll died; we got the rewards and they go nothing. This really sucks, they did a lot of work in that fight, but we just couldn’t get to them to res.

I think you meant explorable. And they didn’t get any rewards, not because they were dead (I died at the end of certain fights and still got my reward) but because you probably had the Troll fight Kohler and then fought the Troll with the remainder of its life (~10 %). To get drops, you have to do a certain amount of damage, and your teammates probably didn’t.
Or it was a bug (there’s a thread around here on this). But being dead doesn’t prevent you from getting drops.

You cannot loot the body if you are dead when the fight ends. I have encountered this numerous times. You can however get the chest.

I think a fair compromise would be to add a “reinforcement” timer. Every, say, 15s dead players would be allowed to waypoint. In addition to that, if any reward sequence is over, say, 90% complete (read: 10% health remaining on bosses) players can waypoint at any time despite the reinforcement timer.

Depending on the values (mine are probably wrong) it’s win-win. If you depend on graveyarding a lot things are going to be a lot trickier and you will need skilled kiters to avoid the boss health regen (while you are waiting for the timer to tick over) – you won’t be denied boss kills though if you die mere seconds before the boss gets killed.

Alternatively, keep track of the sequence lifetime assist percentage (be it damage, buffing allies, anything that contributes to success really). Keep in mind that any boss invulnerability regen should reset the assist percentage the second it starts ticking. That way it doesn’t matter if you are killed moments before the boss goes down because the game has kept track of your contribution (which it seems to do at the moment for the last bit of damage, which actually encourages players to use exploits such as Troll/Kohler – I am sure thought went into that mechanic, but it has turned out to be entirely counter-productive; time to remove it, it doesn’t work).

The few times I’ve died right at the end of a boss (I take full responsibility for my laziness hehe) I was not able to loot him, I’ve noticed this happen every time.

i have one thing to say:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNJL6nfu__Q

rozcinana.7249:

The few times I’ve died right at the end of a boss (I take full responsibility for my laziness hehe) I was not able to loot him, I’ve noticed this happen every time.

Are all end bosses supposed to drop loot? Maybe a high chance but certainly doesn’t seem like 100% and that is without any dying involved.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I’ll look into making a safety net for the iron forgeman fight if you die in the lava. Thanks for letting us know.

I also think you guys need to look into the loot issue. You’re already being punished for dying, or is that a double punishment for dying during a boss fight? Repair cost and no loot.

Azjenco.9425:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I’ll look into making a safety net for the iron forgeman fight if you die in the lava. Thanks for letting us know.

I also think you guys need to look into the loot issue. You’re already being punished for dying, or is that a double punishment for dying during a boss fight? Repair cost and no loot.

^ This ^

A big draw to dungeon bosses (and optional bosses) is the high coin value and the chance for extra tokens (bag of wondrous goods.)

To me, if player A eats dirt in the beginning of the fight, but 1 person can res him while 3 others continue to work the boss, and player A gets back into the fight, but Player B is downed at the end of the fight and can’t be ressed before the boss dies…. A gets loot, B does not. Both stayed on their feet for a significant portion of the fight, but….

Honestly, I think the solution is to allow a player to receive loot even if defeated when the boss dies. It would take the sting out of the mechanic, and I think groups would be more successful at avoiding rage quits if they could ‘carry’ the defeated player and 4 man a boss to move on rather than having a player upset that they miss out on loot.

This putting effort into damaging bosses and mini bosses is in all Dungeons. If you die near the end or half way through a boss. Yah, you can’t loot them and yes it isn’t fair. It happened to me many times. That is of course, if you don’t get rez’d in time. A slow process I must add… -.-

I agree that not getting loot is a problem, but it’s ridiculous how many people just want baby mode dungeons. You’re upset because you have to learn a fight and have to learn how to stay alive, like it was intended. What you want is to just throw your body at it like a mindless zerg.

I’ll agree some fights are improperly tuned, but that should be fixed, not just letting you zerg a boss with no skill.

Giles Marchand.6970:

after doing 75% of the damage to The Iron Forgeman I dodge rolled into the lava, I died and for the next 10 minutes I sat there as my group dealt the last 25%.

Not getting loot if you’re dead is an obvious problem, but you made a mistake and admitted it. There has to be consequences for doing so, otherwise we go back to the rez-rushing nonsense and no one leans how to play properly.

Copain.1926:

I agree that not getting loot is a problem, but it’s ridiculous how many people just want baby mode dungeons. You’re upset because you have to learn a fight and have to learn how to stay alive, like it was intended. What you want is to just throw your body at it like a mindless zerg.

I’ll agree some fights are improperly tuned, but that should be fixed, not just letting you zerg a boss with no skill.

Here’s the thing for me: This is a TEAM effort. Everyone in the TEAM has their role to play. My complaint is that a member of my TEAM worked kitten hard, and the TEAM accomplished the goal…. but one member of the group is not getting the reward.

It’s not about throwing bodies at it, it’s not about zerging things down. I’ve had moments in a fight where I do things that are suicidal because it’s important…. Guardian GS skill #5 and drawing a room full of trash onto myself to keep an NPC alive because we needed a few moments of breathing room to get everyone else back into action…. I die, event succeeds. Great strategy? Maybe not, desperate strategy, sure, and successful.

Some times it’s a last damage spike from a boss that downs a player, sometimes the boss “likes” one player and chases them in circles and they can’t get clear of the thing. Some times you play well, and you still go down.

I’m going to be mean for a moment and quote Robert from a few months back:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Personally, I love that my content kills players and challenges them. I feel pretty kittenty though when my content beats someone into the ground and takes their lunch money. I at least want you to walk away with something more than a repair bill and some random blues, and folks here are working on that very thing.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/4-hours-of-Arah-EM-and-no-shards/first#post392172 <—- full post for context.

I’m fine with people dieing in the pursuit of victory. It happens, it is not a result of the dungeon being over-tuned and it is not always the result of a player having a L2P issue. But, I would like to see all players in the dungeon team be eligible for loot.

rozcinana.7249:

The few times I’ve died right at the end of a boss (I take full responsibility for my laziness hehe) I was not able to loot him, I’ve noticed this happen every time.

Be it at Giganticus or during AC, when a boss dies and you are in its range, you get the drop. I noticed that and so did my guild mates.
So which one is a bug ?

RedStar.4218:

rozcinana.7249:

The few times I’ve died right at the end of a boss (I take full responsibility for my laziness hehe) I was not able to loot him, I’ve noticed this happen every time.

Be it at Giganticus or during AC, when a boss dies and you are in its range, you get the drop. I noticed that and so did my guild mates.
So which one is a bug ?

Not if youre dead.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

I’ll look into making a safety net for the iron forgeman fight if you die in the lava. Thanks for letting us know.

Dying in the lava is also a very likely possibility when fighting the end boss of CoF p3.

I haven’t been able to play since the patch but has anyone tried to use a resurrection orb since the patch ? Are they still usable, or have they been scrapped from sale in the gem shop ?

Ashur Etil Lani.4518:

I haven’t been able to play since the patch but has anyone tried to use a resurrection orb since the patch ? Are they still usable, or have they been scrapped from sale in the gem shop ?

at 250 gems per orb, I can’t say a revive orb would be worth using to get access to a single boss worth of loot.

Rob just add a 15 second res timer (similar to spvp) and it will solve problems for the casuals/people that don’t have a static group.

Mario Lemieux.9107:

Not if youre dead.

Are you not reading things ? I say that this happens when I died before the boss was dead…I’m going to go right now in the game to fight a boss and let myself die only to prove something like that. Maybe later, but not today.

15s will just postpone waypoint zerging not fix it. Its fine the way it is now.

Also you are indeed getting no loot if you die or do no damage for too long. I rezzed people before doing no damage in return and ended up getting no loot because of it >.<

Dungeons where hard enough as they where, now its crazy. But the most important thing are the levels they are made for. They barely match, would love to see a lvl 35 group do all AC paths when they are still leveling and dont have the money to gear up for it.

Thought dungeons where also a way to progress towards better gear while leveling. It seems most dungeons are just end game, even story mode can be a pain allthough in some cases its just long (which isnt bad unless you help others and do them multiple times).

miniL.7361:

Dungeons where hard enough as they where, now its crazy. But the most important thing are the levels they are made for. They barely match, would love to see a lvl 35 group do all AC paths when they are still leveling and dont have the money to gear up for it.

Thought dungeons where also a way to progress towards better gear while leveling. It seems most dungeons are just end game, even story mode can be a pain allthough in some cases its just long (which isnt bad unless you help others and do them multiple times).

Crazy difficulty? I still find them laughable easy.

Right now I’m sitting dead in the lava at the end of Citadel of Flame path 3. so are two other party members. This was already a long fight, but this is ridiculous. It’s going on now toward 30 mins of sitting in the lava while they’ve nicked away at him.

I don’t consider myself a hardcore gamer anymore but I do manage to get in a couple hours a day. Ignoring the “laughably easy” comment above that can’t be taken as anything other than snide regardless of how it was meant, I do see how some players can still find even AC hard.
I have several alts sitting at 40, I have done AC on all of them at 35 and up and not spent the entire time on my bum. I put them in 35 rares, which isn’t a huge expense (or even truly necessary), and the rest is how you chose to put your traits and gear stats. If you want to go full power/precision on all your gear and you’re not really good at dodging then yeah, you’re gonna have a hard time. All the lower dungeons are doable at their suggested level, I have done them at their suggested level. You may not be able to trait the same way as when you run around the map, but it can be done without making a “dream team” of classes. I have yet to encounter a dungeon path that cannot be done without X class or X skill in the group. If you find you are dying a lot then trait more defensively. Taking a little bit longer to down a boss is better than dying to one hit because you have nothing in vitality or toughness.
The other end of all this is team work, but there you’re at the mercy of your party. I have noticed as the game has been out longer people have become less selfish on their builds (pure signet warrior, cough) as they have come to realize their individual performance is secondary to the group performance. The higher the dungeon the worse it gets if people choose not to focus targets and such to the point that it won’t be possible with people just doing what they want.

XGhoul.7426:

Rob just add a 15 second res timer (similar to spvp) and it will solve problems for the casuals/people that don’t have a static group.

Add a 15 second res timer and your average party will almost instantly go “Why bother rezzing you, you will respawn in 15 seconds anyway.”

There is obviously stuff that needs to be fixed (dead player not getting loot, dead in a non-rezzable location, …) but, all in all, I appreciate the new mechanic.

~MRA

The WP fix is just fine. Death rushing is just stupid

The issue here is

1) Dying in an unrezzable place. Apparently they’re looking into this one instance

2) Death removing your contribution to a boss fight. IMO this also needs to be looked at. If you do your share of damage and die near the end, your contribution should be remembered so you can loot the boss after you rez

As with a lot of posters in this thread there are a lot of good points and bad points made. I agree with a lot, with that being said these are some of the issues as I see it from my opinion.

The new non res rushing mechanic put into place is in good theory and I see why it was put in place by the devs but on the other hand I also see why res-rushing (as most call it) was started. The dungeon mechanics in this game does need some overhaul but at the same time shouldnt be too easy either unfortunately when res-rushing was first discovered or used was due more to the harder bosses (ie Lupi in ARAH for example) for those parties that struggled to finish the fight. Unfortuanetly this became the norm even for lower bosses as ppl developed the I dont have time to be bothered to res you attitude and teams now not working together. The new non-resrushing is now forcing ppl to work together…however now its becoming elitest groups forming and those with attitudes that “You stupid noob…dodge more” types of sayings from ppl. This type of grouping is becoming frustrating for those starting out in dungeons as well as those seasoned cause every run cant and wont go 100% as planned…thus leading into ppl not running dungeons at all. There has been a decline in dungeon runs esp for the harder, more time consuming ones and if the trend as I seee it continues will make it almost impossible to make groups at all outside of an elite few here and there. Not saying they will dissapear all together just afraid that if this mindset keeps going dungeons wont be a fun thing to experience.

With the recent patch changes to the res mechanism a few things have occured also that I have noticed. While hard downed and only say 10-20% left on a boss, boss camping your body, ppl cant get to you, etc etc for example there are times the rest of what is left of your party will opt to leave you there dead and finish the boss off themselves. Now while this gets the battle over with unfortunately there has been no loot on the bosses body when I have finally returned to get what i was hoping “Something for the time I invested into helping with the kill”. Every boss I have had this happen to me with if I am not alive when they go down then I get no loot at all. This will drive more and more ppl away from running dungeons also. I do realize that there will be times when it is hard to get a player up during a battle due to positioning/terrain/boss phase/ numorous other things but at the same time they should at least recieve something for their time invested into helping the team get the boss down that far as well…after all its a dungeon and teams is what its all about. So why reward only those that are alive at the end of a boss fight and not everyone in party?

Not sure what the answer is to fix the issues. I know that the harder bosses are doable, need good teams working together etc etc but at the same time not everyone can be resed in a timely manner thus hindering the group even further if they are hard down for 20% of the fight, then to walk out with no drops makes it even worse for the player. I agree more tweeking needs to be done, not sure how it needs to be but if something isnt done, I am afraid dungeons will diminish more and more esp from casual players.

hey robert, i’d like to give you a different perspective on this new change to waypoints. it feels like i’m playing a pub match of cod4 search and destroy. for that matter, ANY fps style search and destroy or elimination game mode where, if you die, you sit out until the round resets. typically i avoid these game modes unless 1) i’m training for a competitive match or 2) if i’m willing to sacrifice actual playing time for theoretically greater challenge (rarely am i willing to sacrifice playtime).

i feel some parallels now to gw2’s dungeons with respect to the above. granted i’m a casual dungeoneer and i have not experienced all dungeons, the only place i’ve ever planned to “wp zerg” has been in pug cof p2 at defending magg….no where else. so when this change was first announced i thought it was a huge over reaction to (imo) a non issue.

so far i haven’t noticed too much of a difference but it is an annoyance when i can’t waypoint whilst everyone’s alive because someone else is still in combat. and, most importantly, its NOT fun when you have party members go down on a boss and you can’t res them cause the boss hits hard…especially if you happened to be the dead one…sitting there…waiting (to have fun…lol). sure it can be argued that it’s a ‘better challenge’ and that it ‘produces better/smarter play’ but thats what i go to fractals for….

i guess what im trying to say is that i see dungeons as free-for-all, ctf, team-deathmatch pubs (for the most part casual, fun, fast paced flow, group up with randoms and go) and fractals as search n destroy/elimination pubs (organized, focused, punishing). now the dungeons (depending on the quality of the pug, or lack thereof) have the potential to infringe on the SnD pub feeling on even the easier of paths. your idea was good in theory but i don’t think its the optimal solution as currently implemented. not sure why simply redesigning the encounters wasnt enough.

hopefully this made sense.

CassieGold.7460:

Copain.1926:

I agree that not getting loot is a problem, but it’s ridiculous how many people just want baby mode dungeons. You’re upset because you have to learn a fight and have to learn how to stay alive, like it was intended. What you want is to just throw your body at it like a mindless zerg.

I’ll agree some fights are improperly tuned, but that should be fixed, not just letting you zerg a boss with no skill.

Here’s the thing for me: This is a TEAM effort. Everyone in the TEAM has their role to play. My complaint is that a member of my TEAM worked kitten hard, and the TEAM accomplished the goal…. but one member of the group is not getting the reward.

It’s not about throwing bodies at it, it’s not about zerging things down. I’ve had moments in a fight where I do things that are suicidal because it’s important…. Guardian GS skill #5 and drawing a room full of trash onto myself to keep an NPC alive because we needed a few moments of breathing room to get everyone else back into action…. I die, event succeeds. Great strategy? Maybe not, desperate strategy, sure, and successful.

Guardian is my main as well. Greatsword as well (with staff sometimes used). I’m not even building super bulky (though I do go for a bit) and I can use my skill five to get mobs to me, keep my group alive, and never die myself easily. I’ve yet to have a problem and I’m not even in the best gear—- more so for a tankish playstyle.

If you honestly think playing a Guardian and using a greatsword gives you an excuse to die, you’re dead wrong.

Copain.1926:

Guardian is my main as well. Greatsword as well (with staff sometimes used). I’m not even building super bulky (though I do go for a bit) and I can use my skill five to get mobs to me, keep my group alive, and never die myself easily. I’ve yet to have a problem and I’m not even in the best gear—- more so for a tankish playstyle.

If you honestly think playing a Guardian and using a greatsword gives you an excuse to die, you’re dead wrong.

Not an excuse to die. Things are situational. Generally, I don’t go down on my guardian, even when lasoing a ton of trash…. sometimes, I’ve been slammed on enough by something else that NOW is not a good time to do it, but it needs to be done NOW before the event fails.

Not all the time, not every time, but that time.

Why is it that if you talk about something resulting in a death people think you die all the time?

Only problem I had with dungeon runs after update is gives reason to troll pugs. During the boss fight of a dungeon, everyone would fight the boss while the troll player stays in the way back lines. After party whipes the troll player will already be in a room with weaker enemies he could dodge and stay in combat until either he dies or everyone leaves the group out of frustration. I have had this happen once in SE and a few times in AC dungeon runs in which that happened.
While I find the no waypoints mechanic an ok idea, they really should have worked on the dungeons some or worked out all the scenarios that could have wrecked it for a few peoples fun before making it a mandatory mechanic.

Edit: The troll usually being the one who started the explorable or dungeon so when kicked everyone got kicked out of dungeon.

CassieGold.7460:

Copain.1926:

Guardian is my main as well. Greatsword as well (with staff sometimes used). I’m not even building super bulky (though I do go for a bit) and I can use my skill five to get mobs to me, keep my group alive, and never die myself easily. I’ve yet to have a problem and I’m not even in the best gear—- more so for a tankish playstyle.

If you honestly think playing a Guardian and using a greatsword gives you an excuse to die, you’re dead wrong.

Not an excuse to die. Things are situational. Generally, I don’t go down on my guardian, even when lasoing a ton of trash…. sometimes, I’ve been slammed on enough by something else that NOW is not a good time to do it, but it needs to be done NOW before the event fails.

Not all the time, not every time, but that time.

Why is it that if you talk about something resulting in a death people think you die all the time?

Because if you already almost never go down and you only go down in “That time” when your group does something wrong and should be punished for it, and you don’t want even that to happen and instead just be able to still get a free win… we have a problem.

Copain.1926:

Because if you already almost never go down and you only go down in “That time” when your group does something wrong and should be punished for it, and you don’t want even that to happen and instead just be able to still get a free win… we have a problem.

Individual accomplishment vs. Group accomplishment. My personal opinion is that as long as the individual is contributing to the success of the group, that is game play worthy of receiving reward in a cooperative multi-player game.

If one player dies at the beginning of a fight, and is ressed by the team before the fight ends, but another player dies near the end of the fight and the team is not able to res that player before the boss dies, is the first player more deserving of loot than the second?

The expectation that flawless performance is required needs to go away. It’s okay for players to die. You do your best to make sure it doesn’t happen, you do your best to res your teammates when downed so they don’t become defeated, and if the team succeeds, the team gets rewards.

Armor repair and being forced to sit out while your team gets to play the game is punishing enough.

Believe it or not, I play enough that the occasions where I’ve been disqualified for boss loot are memorable because they’re few and far between, and because in some instances (not getting loot because I was ressing a defeated player) the mechanic struck me as odd.

That being said, it makes me pretty kitten mad when I’m organizing groups for my guild that include people that play once or twice a week and they’re discouraged by mechanics that feel overly punishing. Watching some of them walk out of a dungeon with a 10s+ repair bill and a lack of boss loot is painful because they’re frequently disinclined to come back.

I can support a lack of res zerg. I really can. Parties shouldn’t become endless waves of people running back from waypoints. The punishing part should be when the entire party wipes. Then the group (and the encounter) reset, and the group has to come back and try again, hopefully with some lessons learned.

CassieGold.7460:

Copain.1926:

I agree that not getting loot is a problem, but it’s ridiculous how many people just want baby mode dungeons. You’re upset because you have to learn a fight and have to learn how to stay alive, like it was intended. What you want is to just throw your body at it like a mindless zerg.

I’ll agree some fights are improperly tuned, but that should be fixed, not just letting you zerg a boss with no skill.

Here’s the thing for me: This is a TEAM effort. Everyone in the TEAM has their role to play. My complaint is that a member of my TEAM worked kitten hard, and the TEAM accomplished the goal…. but one member of the group is not getting the reward.

It’s not about throwing bodies at it, it’s not about zerging things down. I’ve had moments in a fight where I do things that are suicidal because it’s important…. Guardian GS skill #5 and drawing a room full of trash onto myself to keep an NPC alive because we needed a few moments of breathing room to get everyone else back into action…. I die, event succeeds. Great strategy? Maybe not, desperate strategy, sure, and successful.

Some times it’s a last damage spike from a boss that downs a player, sometimes the boss “likes” one player and chases them in circles and they can’t get clear of the thing. Some times you play well, and you still go down.

I’m going to be mean for a moment and quote Robert from a few months back:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Personally, I love that my content kills players and challenges them. I feel pretty kittenty though when my content beats someone into the ground and takes their lunch money. I at least want you to walk away with something more than a repair bill and some random blues, and folks here are working on that very thing.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/4-hours-of-Arah-EM-and-no-shards/first#post392172 <—- full post for context.

I’m fine with people dieing in the pursuit of victory. It happens, it is not a result of the dungeon being over-tuned and it is not always the result of a player having a L2P issue. But, I would like to see all players in the dungeon team be eligible for loot.

This is a great point. If the TEAM wins, then everyone on the TEAM should get the loot.

If a player makes a move, be it an act of valor to save the encounter at their cost of themselves, or even just did not dodge in time and bit the dust, in the end, when we walk in, we go in as a team. Thus every bit of loot should be open to every member on that team.

It is a wasteful and discouraging mechanic to require each team member to all hit the same mob, to get the loot. In fact, it rewards people for NOT taking a risk to save their team mate, after all, why should I stick my neck out to raise you and risk getting killed myself, as opposed to keep kiting this mob and get my loot. Sucks to be you for dying tho.

There is no question that this is a wrong mechanic, and I hope the developers look into is and fix it as it encourages people to let other party members die and to not risk themselves even if it would help the team, in fact the mechanic where a player who may have died gets no loot inspires selfish play as opposed to team play. I can hope that maybe the developers will see this problem and fix it.

CassieGold.7460:

Copain.1926:

Because if you already almost never go down and you only go down in “That time” when your group does something wrong and should be punished for it, and you don’t want even that to happen and instead just be able to still get a free win… we have a problem.

Individual accomplishment vs. Group accomplishment. My personal opinion is that as long as the individual is contributing to the success of the group, that is game play worthy of receiving reward in a cooperative multi-player game.

If one player dies at the beginning of a fight, and is ressed by the team before the fight ends, but another player dies near the end of the fight and the team is not able to res that player before the boss dies, is the first player more deserving of loot than the second?

The expectation that flawless performance is required needs to go away. It’s okay for players to die. You do your best to make sure it doesn’t happen, you do your best to res your teammates when downed so they don’t become defeated, and if the team succeeds, the team gets rewards.

Armor repair and being forced to sit out while your team gets to play the game is punishing enough.

Believe it or not, I play enough that the occasions where I’ve been disqualified for boss loot are memorable because they’re few and far between, and because in some instances (not getting loot because I was ressing a defeated player) the mechanic struck me as odd.

That being said, it makes me pretty kitten mad when I’m organizing groups for my guild that include people that play once or twice a week and they’re discouraged by mechanics that feel overly punishing. Watching some of them walk out of a dungeon with a 10s+ repair bill and a lack of boss loot is painful because they’re frequently disinclined to come back.

I can support a lack of res zerg. I really can. Parties shouldn’t become endless waves of people running back from waypoints. The punishing part should be when the entire party wipes. Then the group (and the encounter) reset, and the group has to come back and try again, hopefully with some lessons learned.

I said at the very start of my first post here that not getting loot if you’re dead is a bad thing.

Ungood.3054:

CassieGold.7460:

Copain.1926:

I agree that not getting loot is a problem, but it’s ridiculous how many people just want baby mode dungeons. You’re upset because you have to learn a fight and have to learn how to stay alive, like it was intended. What you want is to just throw your body at it like a mindless zerg.

I’ll agree some fights are improperly tuned, but that should be fixed, not just letting you zerg a boss with no skill.

Here’s the thing for me: This is a TEAM effort. Everyone in the TEAM has their role to play. My complaint is that a member of my TEAM worked kitten hard, and the TEAM accomplished the goal…. but one member of the group is not getting the reward.

It’s not about throwing bodies at it, it’s not about zerging things down. I’ve had moments in a fight where I do things that are suicidal because it’s important…. Guardian GS skill #5 and drawing a room full of trash onto myself to keep an NPC alive because we needed a few moments of breathing room to get everyone else back into action…. I die, event succeeds. Great strategy? Maybe not, desperate strategy, sure, and successful.

Some times it’s a last damage spike from a boss that downs a player, sometimes the boss “likes” one player and chases them in circles and they can’t get clear of the thing. Some times you play well, and you still go down.

I’m going to be mean for a moment and quote Robert from a few months back:

Robert Hrouda.1327:

Personally, I love that my content kills players and challenges them. I feel pretty kittenty though when my content beats someone into the ground and takes their lunch money. I at least want you to walk away with something more than a repair bill and some random blues, and folks here are working on that very thing.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/4-hours-of-Arah-EM-and-no-shards/first#post392172 <—- full post for context.

I’m fine with people dieing in the pursuit of victory. It happens, it is not a result of the dungeon being over-tuned and it is not always the result of a player having a L2P issue. But, I would like to see all players in the dungeon team be eligible for loot.

This is a great point. If the TEAM wins, then everyone on the TEAM should get the loot.

If a player makes a move, be it an act of valor to save the encounter at their cost of themselves, or even just did not dodge in time and bit the dust, in the end, when we walk in, we go in as a team. Thus every bit of loot should be open to every member on that team.

It is a wasteful and discouraging mechanic to require each team member to all hit the same mob, to get the loot. In fact, it rewards people for NOT taking a risk to save their team mate, after all, why should I stick my neck out to raise you and risk getting killed myself, as opposed to keep kiting this mob and get my loot. Sucks to be you for dying tho.

There is no question that this is a wrong mechanic, and I hope the developers look into is and fix it as it encourages people to let other party members die and to not risk themselves even if it would help the team, in fact the mechanic where a player who may have died gets no loot inspires selfish play as opposed to team play. I can hope that maybe the developers will see this problem and fix it.

My very first post here had me saying “The loot system is a problem” I’m only talking about the waypoint change, not the loot system.