Guild Wars 2

Already seeing it in my fairly friendly guild. A secret core “raid” group going in for a few nights in a row, not asking anyone else if they want to come. Seen this repeated in all the guilds I’m a member of.

Thank God they don;t actually drop gear with higher stats is all I can say.

And your point is? That’s an issue with the people in your guild not with the raids.

Honestly, the same thing could happen in guild fractal groups, or really any content that has a player restriction on it. Hell, this happens in sPvP… you sit in Ventrillo with the sPvP group, and wait till someone drops out, or you scrape together 1 or 2 other guildies and pug the rest. I sympathize with the problem, but there is no easy fix to it.

Why are you in multiple guilds that aren’t “finder-guilds”/bank guilds/guilds with focus on different types of content in the first place?

Anyway, of course you try to keep a consistent group for raids because you have to learn this and if you constantly swap out people, there’s going to be huge discrepancies in terms of knowledge. Also, I’d assume most guilds have enough members to get two raid squads going, or at least can fill up with friends of members.

“Elite content” leads to “elitist behavior.” I’ve seen it in every game I’ve played. It’s not wrong, it’s not bad, it just is. The real challenge is for groups (guilds, in this case) to learn to be ok with it. Most never do. In a different game, I was a member of an amazingly tight-knit, fun, cohesive guild, and raiding tore us apart. It happens.

That is a problem with your people not with raids. If that is what they resort to that is their true colors, that is who they are in reality.

Many people in my guild are new to any form of PvE content that requires extreme commitment, did we enforce separations and elitist behavior? no.

The whole point of raiding isn’t the loot, it really isn’t, that’s just a carrot on the stick. The whole point of raiding is to build communication and social skills within the test pool of people affected.

Read this please for reference.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/can-warcraft-game-skills-help-land-a-job-1407885660

In short, its an offset environment designed to help promote growth in an artificial environment where failing and succeeding are mere elements to the overall design goal, you know, what videogames were actually originally suppose to be, not some faux power fantasy ala candy crush black lion chest gambling.

If the people in your guild don’t get that, I would suggest seeking a guild who will appreciate giving you opportunity, something that is your right.

If your guild has a secret raid group, then either you dont know your guildies as well as they know each other, or they dont think you are skilled.

You need to confront them and show otherwise or find a new guild.

Mitch, raids will not destroy your guild, the social cliques in a guild will. If those people can’t think for the whole of the family then they are not family period.

This is the raiding mentality here; if you are not in it for the whole then you are not in it period.

To be a successful raid guild, that is a raiding guild that will not break apart, you must think like a functioning family. That is the core essence of a guild built for lasting power in mind and is the only relationship that is impervious through harsh times.

Well it’s just I saw this type of thing happen in WOW. I remember the day I decided to quit wow was when we spent 4 hours raiding one sunday and our raid leader lost it at this hunter over vent for dying. The Hunter was a sweet guy in his 40’s and I felt very bad for him.

Just don’t want that kind of mentality to inflict this game. However, since writing this thread, I’ve decided to just let it go. I’m not goign to let raiding in a game annoy me again. Like I said earlier, at least you don;t get better gear. One saving grace.

Mitch.4781:

Well it’s just I saw this type of thing happen in WOW. I remember the day I decided to quit wow was when we spent 4 hours raiding one sunday and our raid leader lost it at this hunter over vent for dying. The Hunter was a sweet guy in his 40’s and I felt very bad for him.

Just don’t want that kind of mentality to inflict this game. However, since writing this thread, I’ve decided to just let it go. I’m not goign to let raiding in a game annoy me again. Like I said earlier, at least you don;t get better gear. One saving grace.

We’ve had this mentality in dungeons already for the past 3 years by the six what are you talking about.

When did you start playing GW2? Have you seen the map chat in dragon’s stand when we fail the meta event? We have had poor attitude since day 1. You cannot turn a devil into a saint if he chooses to be the devil and is proud of it, you will burn yourself trying.

IllegalChocolate, Raids have the potential to be much worse though simply because of the time invested in them. There is a hell of a big difference between runnign a 10 minute dungeon and wiping for 4 hours in a Raid. Tempers can get extremely frayed….

Why? Don’t you prefer running things with friends/acquaintances that you’re comfortable with, rather than just a random guildie? Being part of a guild does not automatically make you friends with people, it just helps narrow down the scope and range of the population for you to befriend and play with.

Mitch.4781:

IllegalChocolate, Raids have the potential to be much worse though simply because of the time invested in them. There is a hell of a big difference between runnign a 10 minute dungeon and wiping for 4 hours in a Raid. Tempers can get extremely frayed….

You are talking to someone who was a raid leader for years in WoW.

I did not tolerate cliques, it was confronted, weeds were pulled out and our guild lasted for quite a while, a lot of us still talk to each other on facebook etc even though many moved on with their lives we were a family and succeeded as such.

The dungeon community in GW2 was worse than anything I ever seen in my time raiding in WoW and I have had to deal with a lot of bull in WoW in a leadership position. The Zerker Meta ideology was literally Rock Bottom.

On another note, I’d understand if guilds in this game were like serious raid progression guilds in WoW, where you’d have to apply, trial, and line up your schedule to raid. But because guilds here don’t do that, then what’s the problem? It’s not like you were scheduled for a raid spot, only to be replaced by someone’s friend, were you? If you were, then that’s seriously messed up.

I guess the only way around it is to accept, since Anet has specificallly limit it to 10 players, that there WILL be people who will be left out.

Alternatively what can be done is for the guild leaders to run the raid multiple times so as cover every member.

Another method is for Anet to fix this problem by allowing the raid to scale with the number of people inside (however a cap is still needed, cos I would like to see a raid with 500 people in it).

Other than this, i guess if one is not happy, one can always find a new guild that satisfies.

Look, I’m probably making a fuss over nothing.. I just saw the group and found myself rolling my eyes and sighing.

But anyways, I’m just gonna do my own thing because it really is not worth worrying over.

If you want in, then just tell them. Statistics dictates that at least one of your three guilds will take you on their run. If they don’t, then you can just pug for now to learn the fights, then try again some other time.

This was obviously going to happen
Pvers are now divided into raiders and non raiders with introduction of raids

I have a suggestion though say “Yolo” and all the elitists won’t bother you

JVJD.4912:

This was obviously going to happen
Pvers are now divided into raiders and non raiders with introduction of raids

I have a suggestion though say “Yolo” and all the elitists won’t bother you

That acronym either doesn’t mean what you think it means or you don’t understand its usage xD

—

Anyways OP it’s not a bad thing for there to be content that requires organisation and more demanding of gameplay because for 3 years now GW2 has had no endgame in PvE, nothing but just playing dressup. It’s just one aspect of the game and it’s brand new content so let people have their fun.

What is bad, however, is that dungeons and fractals got rekt, dungeons obviously way more so. If you wanna really know what the division you speak of is caused by, it’s that instead of there being open world PvE, dungeons, fractals and raids there’s open world PvE, completely abandoned dungeons, completely pointless-to-do fractals, and raids.

They may claim that fractals are still in their interest but we clearly know that if they were, they wouldn’t have made the rewards so kitten awful nor would they have neglected to add new fractals after years of no new dungeons. Basically what I’m getting at is they’re limiting our options to open world and raids if you want to be rewarded for your time invested.

The expansion should have only added content to the game, not replace the existing content -.-

Mitch.4781:

Already seeing it in my fairly friendly guild. A secret core “raid” group going in for a few nights in a row, not asking anyone else if they want to come. Seen this repeated in all the guilds I’m a member of.

Thank God they don;t actually drop gear with higher stats is all I can say.

is like that in every game, i am not much of a raider but i remember back in wow (the old wow) groups like that formed, is like a guild between a guild, an exclusive group that only few can go. Then my question is why have a guild at all then, just make a guild with those friends and go

Raids are hard. You cannot approach it with a mentality that anyone and everyone can complete it, because that isn’t the case. One or two players that don’t truly understand how to play optimally will cause your entire group to fail.

The problem is, it’s hard to tell someone no. It’s hard to tell someone that you can’t bring them on your raid group, because they have a bad build, or because they don’t know how to play well enough to clear the raid. You can be friends with someone all you want, but if they’re running full zealots gear on their rifle + mace/shield warrior, they’re not going to be able to clear the raid.

It’s probably better to just not mention that you’re raiding than have to tell them they’re not cut out for raids.

I don’t have this problem in my guild. Every night our guild chat is full of people asking other guildies to join them for raids.

Mitch.4781:

Already seeing it in my fairly friendly guild. A secret core “raid” group going in for a few nights in a row, not asking anyone else if they want to come. Seen this repeated in all the guilds I’m a member of.

Within a Guild, there will be cliques of people that will often do things together. Dungeons, sPvP, Fractals, general PvE—you name it. You can only take 10 people to a raid, so there’s nothing wrong with those who tends to play together, wanting to play together in the raids as well. They can’t exactly go around asking people to come if they are already 10 players now, can they? And wouldn’t it be unfair to someone who had already been a part of their first few runs, to be left out because they had to bring in someone else? Didn’t that person also help be a part of the others learning the encounter and getting better at it? Ideally, a Guild can form more than one group that can try have some fun. If the “core” as you say, are the only good players, then you can’t fault them for that. I see several LFG players capable of handling the raid too.

Give it a month or two, and the first raid is going to be on farm for a majority. Then groups of more experienced players can bring in a few less experienced players and teach/carry them. I’d even expect it to get frequently beaten by players banding together through LFG. It’s not overly complicated, it just needs some practice runs and a go-at-it mentality when facing multiple wipes. It’s good raid content with just the right level of challenge to it, which will eventually lead to randoms being able to beat it too. The way it should be. New raid comes out, cycle repeats.

This is an issue with raid design, not the guilds. They made it so only certain classes with certain build can have any hope of winning this (insert whatever) raid. Now people who have played the game for years, but not in a desired specialized class-role, are left behind. I have most classes so get invites, but I see so many friends left in the wind and people already leaving the guild. I have raided in many games since everquest 1 launched, this by far is the worst design.

Absconditus.6804:

Give it a month or two, and the first raid is going to be on farm for a majority. Then groups of more experienced players can bring in a few less experienced players and teach/carry them. I’d even expect it to get frequently beaten by players banding together through LFG. It’s not overly complicated, it just needs some practice runs and a go-at-it mentality when facing multiple wipes. It’s good raid content with just the right level of challenge to it, which will eventually lead to randoms being able to beat it too. The way it should be. New raid comes out, cycle repeats.

I doubt that the majority of GW2-players will be able to succeed without getting a patch on the raids (Anet pls dont in the next six months or so). The first wing is pure golden for me at the moment and i have almost fallen in love with this content! To be mentioned: I have never ever been raiding before but i have been a constant dungeon and fractal runner with and without Pugs over the last 1-2 years. The raid itself is so much different compared to the old stuff where you only had to react fast along with skill when doing content solo or with fewer ppl than 5. It’s very unlikely that all the Pugs I met will be successful in managing all 3 encounters. There will be Pugs getting it but not the majority of them.

Mitch.4781:

Already seeing it in my fairly friendly guild. A secret core “raid” group going in for a few nights in a row, not asking anyone else if they want to come. Seen this repeated in all the guilds I’m a member of.

Thank God they don;t actually drop gear with higher stats is all I can say.

You need to understand that as in life, every player is different. Some are good on their classes (skill, reaction time, geared, knowledge, map awareness), some are bad, there are many reasons for it, but that’s just how it is. Some bad players acknowledge their state, they then chose to either improve or stand down. The worst is those who do not understand that they should improve their game, and therefore does not understand why other people wont PvP with them, why class X is OP but not theirs, why guildies wont raid with them (hence why we have all these QQ posts across all forums).

Beyond this game players have lives to life, some more busy than others with tight schedules. What is beyond frustrating is when you have a good player that is raiding with other less informed, and then they screw up the teams progression because they simply are not good enough (skill, reaction time, geared, knowledge, map awareness) and ontop of that expect others to raid with them. I dont claim myself great, but I always strive to improve my own gameplay, and after spending 2 days with a raid consisting of said players, I just had enough. Many dont have time to sit for hours failing a boss mechanic when it’s clear that it goes nowhere.

It must suck to be excluded from the “A-team” of your guild. That is understandable.
You can not blame them for it. It can take forever to get a great team together and line up everything accordingly. It is also pretty much required for raids.

The issue I see here is that they didn’t approach this topic openly and that people really need to get used to the idea that they aren’t entitled to be invited into every group there is.

I know very well what it feels like to be left out or left behind. When Fractals were released I so wanted to spend the weekend pushing to level 100, but then I was invited to my GF parents place. After that, it was very hard finding guild mates, since everyone was either ahead of me or individual progress was varying wildly. With raids it is somewhat similar. Even though I was present the first evening, I simply can’t spend 10 hours per day doing it.
I am not angry about any of it, since it is completely understandable. If you’re not available, you can’t expect people to wait. You can’t expect them to go through the same explanations over and over again either. I wouldn’t want to fail 10 times because half of the raid is new, when I could just as well do it with people who are as experienced as I am.

Ultimately this is not a gaming related issue it’s just life, as frustrating as it may be.

The ideal situation is having a consistent group of players you raid with exclusively so you don’t all have to either teach new people the mechanics every night or learn the quirks of playing with new people you haven’t met before. Playing with the same people over time creates chemistry and you can play off of each other which makes the content easier. Also less time spent designating people to different teams.

Is this some kind of joke? People can play with whoever they want to. You’re not entitled to have them in your presence.

TheHeretic.3529:

Is this some kind of joke? People can play with whoever they want to. You’re not entitled to have them in your presence.

Kind of defeats the purpose of a guild doesn’kitten The issue is that the raids force people into taking only specific people with specific class-damage types.

It’s important to understand your limits and what kind of requirements are needed for the fight. It sucks I know. I’ve been part of the A-team and B-team in wow.

I know HOW to beat the boss. Got to phase 5 of first boss but the flat numerical requirements are only slightly out of reach.

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

Scandi.5693:

Kind of defeats the purpose of a guild doesn’kitten The issue is that the raids force people into taking only specific people with specific class-damage types.

Then this is the guild leaders problem, not anets. If you don’t like the cliques in your guild then leave or tell your guild leader to boot 10 people from your guild because they never invited you and your terrible build to raid, clearly these people are elitists and they are ruining your playing experience. Harumph Harumph Harumph

I have 2 guilds, I’m sometimes invited, sometimes the raid is full, and there is no problem…
(I’m DH, and I will have a Reaper to)
The ppl who are not invited are using TS, have more guilds?! Join 5 guild, you will get into 1 raid.
If you are using TS the commander will explain what to do, because you are to lame to even watch videos how to win in a raid battle, and what to do.
Ppl don’t know what to do, don’t want to use TS often, then they are frustrated/angry on their guild members…
Ppl use wrong gears, or they lie about it, so a gear check is a must, don’t like it?!..kick!
Ppl who have the zerk, condi gear, and it is acceptable (not full asncended armor, but at least weapons) should have a chance to go in a raid with guild mates… 3-4 tries, if ppl see that “you” are not good, then kick, 9 ppl are wasting time on “you”, so “you” could have your fun, they shouldn’t because of “you”?! If you are kicked, try other guilds, you can be in lots of guilds!
The most important, don’t take it personally, there are ppl who will not play along with some professions, roles. Example, I will not play with simple Ranger, Thief, Med Guard, I will try to kick them out, or I will leave squad. I will not play with those, who think that in raid tank armors/weapons are good, they are just slowing the group down..don’t forget the time it self must be beaten. (1 druid, 3 condi, 4 zerker is a must, the other 2 should be +1 condi + 1 zerker).
I don’t care what others say, this is my opinion, I will play like this, I have the team for this, and I can find or join other members/guilds who think like this, because this is the fun for me.

The way raids are built require a specific type of players that can be online often and have hours of sit time to get through the muscle memory nature of raids.

This content isn’t built to where you can just swap out people on your core team. I hate telling people “Sorry you don’t have the right gear, build, haven’t practiced, or only have a hour to do so”. People have an elitist approach to raids because that is what it required.

These people also need to have a very specific “optimal” gear and build for a very specific role.

In my guild we had a very high interest in raid but only 12 out of 200 of us really fit this profile. While the 12 that do get to play these raids are having fun, none of us see this type of content being well received in a game that the vast majority of the audience was casual up until now.

I was very happy to receive this content but I can easily see how it can be bad for the game and bad for the community. Perhaps some adjustments need to be made. It can still be hard mechanics wise and not gate people out because of a DPS check timer.

The DPS check is why we are seeing such a hard call for DPS meters. Honestly, this is not a direction I wanted to see the game go and it is not how I would like to run a community.

An easy fix : have levels of difficulty for the raid that impact the rage timer.

Mitch.4781:

Well it’s just I saw this type of thing happen in WOW. I remember the day I decided to quit wow was when we spent 4 hours raiding one sunday and our raid leader lost it at this hunter over vent for dying. The Hunter was a sweet guy in his 40’s and I felt very bad for him.

Just don’t want that kind of mentality to inflict this game. However, since writing this thread, I’ve decided to just let it go. I’m not goign to let raiding in a game annoy me again. Like I said earlier, at least you don;t get better gear. One saving grace.

This is a people problem not a game problem – you can’t fix people by making the game work around them.

This is your guild’s problem, not a problem with raids themselves.

The real problem is your guild is full of cowards. I’d just come out and say “us 10 will be raiding together, we don’t find the rest of you good enough to join our raids, please continue to dump your mats into the guuld hall”.

That may also be why I’m part of a small guild of people who are actually friends(not irl friends but people cool enough to tell me if I suck or am playing sub par)

Not only are we doing gear checks, DPS checks, our raid team will have to send in Age verification, No one under 18 will be taken on our Raid team.

Chew on that one for awhile.

Why are you blaming your guild’s kittenty policies on the raids themselves? It’s your guild being dumb, not the raid.

The content is difficult enough (currently) to warrant this behavior imo. Expectations to form a new group of people every night, explain it every night, fail a bunch every night, and have people who only want to dedicate 30 min to an hour every night is ridiculous.

Maybe have a Guild event, like a Guild Raid Night where the idea is to go with other guild members and let them raid on in their set raid on other nights.

Honestly I feel the OP mentality usually stems from jealousy, the guildies are accomplishing more together and leaving the heard behind. Therefore they should be broken up so they can be stuck on VG for all eternity like everyone else in the guild.

Let them finish, they will be more helpful to your guild and other guildies with the knowledge they will bring once they have completed it.

Eldbrand Charging.8902:

Not only are we doing gear checks, DPS checks, our raid team will have to send in Age verification, No one under 18 will be taken on our Raid team.

Chew on that one for awhile.

That might actually prevent future conflict. When you know, stuff starts to fail. People cant blame on gear or whatever, and will just keep trying instead of trying to find flaws

Mitch.4781:

Already seeing it in my fairly friendly guild. A secret core “raid” group going in for a few nights in a row, not asking anyone else if they want to come. Seen this repeated in all the guilds I’m a member of.

Thank God they don;t actually drop gear with higher stats is all I can say.

Wait what? What did you want to them to do?

Write in the guild chat : Hey guys, we are 10 and we gonna go do a raid tonight. We would invite more, but we are 10, but just saying.

Do you complain each time people were doing dungeon in ’’secret’’.

It is fun, but the simple fact (proven anecdotally several million times) is that raiding is often the most hate filled and drama inducing content in MMOs. And despite popular opinion, it has little to do with the actual difficulty of raiding and more to do with the logistical challenges involved – which lead to people being left out (ie 10 man raids mean that 14 player groups have to exclude 4 people).

However, as long as Anet doesnt let raiding become the primary focus of GW2 end game and new content drops, it should be fine. They have to make sure the spirit of the game remains open and friendly – with raiding there on the side (along with fractals and other instanced content) for people to do once or twice a week.

The division was already there, the raid just widened it.

So?

Eldbrand Charging.8902:
Not only are we doing gear checks, DPS checks, our raid team will have to send in Age verification, No one under 18 will be taken on our Raid team.
Chew on that one for awhile.

Finger printing, retina scanning, 2000 word essays. Sheeesh…

Either they can play or they can’t.