Guild Wars 2

I have no problems with this fight on any of my characters.

Wipe are few a far between even with pugs. Fight is not broken.

Sorry but work on dodging or dont build glass cannons?

alpha is my favourite boss fight atm… id hate to see it nerfed

The flame tooth attack should trigger in melee range.

I’ve never done the 3-in-1, wanted to try it once just to do it. I don’t like exploits, but it’s fun to see something new just the once.

They being said, however, u see nothing wrong with the stacking in melee for a couple reasons:

1) even at your best, you may not dodge perfectly, and can die right then and there. of course that depends on the build, but constant risk of 1 shotting is a little weary, when you take into account the next point;
2) if you aren’t a stacked in melee, it is kitten hard to res someone or free them of crystals. the AOEs appear so often even saving someone from downed before the next aoe kills them AND you is difficult if you aren’t working as a team to free them. stacking in melee just makes it easier to prevent a party wipe.

that being said, even stacking in Malay is the perfect solution. people mess up, sometimes Dodges are mistimed, and if not everybody on the team is experienced, then death after death after death can follow.

I’ve been in parties wear maybe 1 person dropped each battle total, and others where the party wiped over and over and over again. as such, I have no problem with the stack in melee tactic. when thats tactic becomes an I win button, then I will look for a more challenging way to fight him.

jazzllanna.1278:

Ok I will add you then because it would be nice to see other paths but very discouraged from anything but the sub path atm lol. I only run it when my husband is off so it would be 2 of us :p If he didn’t need the tokens I would not go back to this on lol.

Sure, I’ll add you too.

The big problem with fighting subject alpha is timing your dodges. Get that down and that’s 90% if the battle. The other 10% is not bringing a glass cannon: empress your dodges are perfect, you’ll go down first time you miss a dodge. I run a bunker build on there, pretty hefty, I never get one-shotted, so if I screw up a dodge I have the chance to recover.

I’m going to give a little feedback here based on a few things said and how I feel about it.

If you get downed in an alpha fight it seems to me that you are supposed to rally off the tendrals not attempt to res rally. The mechanics of the boss and the fact that these things exist in the fight leans me in this direction. And I’m totally ok with this.

I wish his massive aoe wouldn’t require vigor or another invun/evasive move, sometimes he triggers his massive aoe over and over really quickly and your endurance doesn’t have time to regen, this is when we actually lose people if they have no quick way to get out of the aoe or evade using a different ability.

Overall alpha is fine, except Path 1 is simply way too easy comparatively.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAbaKWJ1CTc

That being said…

Subject Alpha is a tough cooky for sure. We have some cool plans for him in the future. When we are looking at bosses our intent is not to nerf them – but to make them a more enjoyable experience while keeping up with the challenge that we want our explorable dungeons to be.

One of the more interesting concepts I have for Subject Alpha is that every encounter with him is different, and that he has a wide array of abilities that he selects from before each fight randomly, resulting in a lot of dynamic play, and resulting in subject Alpha having tons of possible builds that he could randomly select from or morph into as the fight progresses.

Robert, that would be awesome.

in the meantime however I would like to see him retooled so that multiple tactics are more effective is well.

right now, there’s only 1 tactic that seems to be very effective, and that is the ubiquitous stack melee. it solves the problemS of otherwise being unable to break someone out of crystal or res before alpha kills them with the next attack.

If there was some way to make it less painful to res or break out of crystal , then perhaps other tactics would be explored.

my single biggest suggestion is to make the hard res skills more effective. as it stands right now, I almost never see anyone use a hard res skill.

for example, what if you changed the hard res skills so that they work on both downed and dead characters, at different levels of effectiveness, we might to see those skills used more often, and allow for a little bit more breadth of tactics in various situations where currently only one is used.

just an idea.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

One of the more interesting concepts I have for Subject Alpha is that every encounter with him is different, and that he has a wide array of abilities that he selects from before each fight randomly, resulting in a lot of dynamic play, and resulting in subject Alpha having tons of possible builds that he could randomly select from or morph into as the fight progresses.

This idea sounds fantastic, having to deal with a random combination of Alpha abilities would make the dungeon so much more rewarding for those playing it regularly. One of my pet peeves with this game in a PvE sense is either A. players dont understand any mechanics, or B. players know a popular strategy but have NO idea how or why it works. It would be nice to be rewarded for understanding mechanics and adjusting play style to deal with them.

the res skills were ALREADY changed from being able to res dead players (some of them) and now all of them are only downed, cept ranger’s search and rescue, which imo rangers need to stay competitive with other classes

Robert Hrouda.1327:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAbaKWJ1CTc

That being said…

Subject Alpha is a tough cooky for sure. We have some cool plans for him in the future. When we are looking at bosses our intent is not to nerf them – but to make them a more enjoyable experience while keeping up with the challenge that we want our explorable dungeons to be.

One of the more interesting concepts I have for Subject Alpha is that every encounter with him is different, and that he has a wide array of abilities that he selects from before each fight randomly, resulting in a lot of dynamic play, and resulting in subject Alpha having tons of possible builds that he could randomly select from or morph into as the fight progresses.

Oh that sounds really good. Spells that deal with certain types of playing, like trying to hide at ranged, trying to melee only, trying to roll too much, etc. Forcing all players to play well at times, would be really good for someone like Alpha.

Consider this: when he does the big aoes, count to two and dodge

Once you learn this, Alpha becomes as easy as kholer.

I actually would like to see him get some buffs. Something to get people out of melee range (still viable to melee, just more dangerous than it is now) to discourage the stack method, get a bit of variation in there. The best thing about fun bosses like Lupi or Kholer is that when something goes wrong everyone has to scramble to adapt. Once you get alpha down it’s just dodge mash 1 dodge mash 1 dodge mash 1 ad infinitum.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAbaKWJ1CTc

That being said…

Subject Alpha is a tough cooky for sure. We have some cool plans for him in the future. When we are looking at bosses our intent is not to nerf them – but to make them a more enjoyable experience while keeping up with the challenge that we want our explorable dungeons to be.

One of the more interesting concepts I have for Subject Alpha is that every encounter with him is different, and that he has a wide array of abilities that he selects from before each fight randomly, resulting in a lot of dynamic play, and resulting in subject Alpha having tons of possible builds that he could randomly select from or morph into as the fight progresses.

That’s all I was really saying Robert, I’m not a fan of nerfs myself, but what I’m looking for is better mechanics to cope with these 1 shot wipes that can instantly turn a coordinated team into chaotic mess. I’m glad at least you took the time to read what I wrote, my whole posts were not about me specifically having problems per each fight, but the group dynamic as a whole. I fully hope you keep the fight challenging and interesting, but consider some external mechanics to provide for a better teamplay experience, rather than “who can dodge the best”.

It’s an easy fight and i am not gonna repeat what others before me has said.
If you are having a hard time doing that dungeon, just hit me up in-game sometime. I will gladly show you the ropes.

I have always wanted to know why his Earth AOE attack will remove your Aegis and other instances of block, will insta kill you if you are down but will not hurt you if you stand still. That does not make sense.

That sounds really good. Make him less predictable. I’m sure PuGs will be so much more of an “enjoyable experience”. We have this one and only viable method to kill our old friend. It’s sure better to remove that. It keeps things interesting. I’m also sure everyone running with PuGs is looking forward to spend a few more hours per run. I ran with PuGs kicking obvious newbies. It’s not fun. I’d never call Super Alpha or any content easy, ‘cause a content designer might think to make it more interesting. I’m looking forward to spent some dungeon time with my “casual” friends, who took 4 months for an 80, without spoiling their spare time with steep learning curves.

January 28, 2013
Crucible of Eternity
Explorable—Evolved Destroyer: This enemy’s health has been reduced. The time window before the shield turns back on has been increased.
Explorable—Subject Alpha (All): The enemy’s health has been reduced.

Since that update alpha has been pretty easy. You only need a few players that know how to dodge his attacks. Still it is best to count to 2 then dodge, kill crystals before the boss and rally off of tentacles if you are downed. Also since that update it seems like he does his big AoE less often and does his leeching skill more. Subject Alpha was the first funny boss I did in GW2.

I truly enjoy the boss right now as he is. Is he tough sure but once you get the method down and you have a good team that stacks and focuses quickly on helping rally people back up and getting crystals taken out it’s not that bad of a fight. Does it take some learning curve… yeah it does especially new players. Should it be changed… I sure hope not. I love this dungeon the way it is.

Today, we got through Path 2 with a bit of wiping and frustration on the final alpha fight

Me (Necro)
Hunter
3 Mesmers

What made most of Path 2 easy was teaching the mesmers how to escape the crystals using Blink.

Once they had that, and if Subject Alpha swapped targets for the crystal… easy up till the final fight.

Fight 3 with him was a chore. For the most part it was keeping people moving and avoiding damage that was the hardest part.

Being a healer with high vitality, I could hold him and survive a lot longer to give my team time to revive, and heal up when things would go bad:

Get his attention, pull him back into the teleporter chamber, and dodge until he crystallizes me. Pop my Flesh Wurm to break out of the crystal and keep dodging until everyone is back up or he crystalizes me again.

If he crystalizes a second time and my wurm isn’t ready, I pop into Plague form so I have 46K hp. I can absorb anything he throws at me, and usually break the crystal. He will usually try to crystalize me again while in plague form, but for some reason I don’t get stuck in the crystal… I can just walk out while I’m still a plague.

I hold onto my shadow/necro transform in case anything goes wrong… it will usually get me through most issues.

So typically I can hold him for 3 crystal prisons while the group revives and heals. If they need to, they can walk far enough away from him to break combat and regen as needed. At which point we commence beating on him again outside the teleporter chamber.

I can do it without all the shenanigans with the right group, yes… it is easy for me. But I don’t want to right group, I want any group at any time.

I want to grab anyone and everyone and go through this dungeon. Yes I want them to learn to play better, but the other dungeons do this without being so punishing. People wipe for being dumb, but many of the people I play with can get through ALL of the other dungeons with less hassle than what Subject Alpha gives.

Path 2 was difficult for them, and Path 3 doesn’t really provide the space to move around in the same fashion. It becomes a slog for them.

Each class does seem to have some skill to break the crystals. It does work… once they use a skill they’ve never used before and are told which ones to try. It isn’t always easy to do, either… My Flesh Wurm is subject to an AOE or random attack. But the only reason I know to use it is an obscure post from someone else in some random forum. When the two other stun-breaks don’t work, most people don’t automatically think to try the third… if they even bother to THINK about using a stun lock at all.

My concern is there is less room for error with Subject Alpha when compared to other dungeons, and nothing makes it easy to figure out which skills are going to be needed. That is a problem for many of the people I try to take through the dungeon. They are human, and not always going to be on top of their game, much less think about doing things they’ve never tried before.

Lag spike, mis-dodge, and a misclick they die. In other dungeons this just isn’t the case. I’m finding the Subject Alpha in path 2 and 3 to be too punishing for what you get as rewards and what you need to do.

He either uses his abilities too quickly, or he is hitting too hard. I do agree some of his animations/attacks could be changed to be more telling. I’d be willing to see that happen first and see if things get better.

Too many others seem to have more problems than I with this boss, and in my experience it just isn’t balanced enough if this dungeon is meant to be on par with the rest of the dungeons.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

So before the flamers start in about “zomg alpha is so easy l2p” at least hear me out. The inconsistencies between the paths with alpha not to mention the inability to get a teammate revive off on certain alpha fights is what makes it a broken fight. The inconsistencies I’m talking about are like path 1, his skills hurt yes but they’re easily avoidable except maybe the earth spike, but path 2 he not only spams the attacks instantly, stacks them on top of each other, but specifically targets people being revived and it’s impossible to revive people. While dodging the circles are all well and fine for classes with tons of vigor and endurance regen, it’s not ok for classes without access to that. So why the inconsistency between path 1 and 2? Why make it so much harder without any external mechanics to make up for it? Also, the “lowered alpha’s health to help balance the encounter” was not the answer to fix these fights. It did nothing to address the problem which is in the boss’s skills and mechanics, not his health pool and the length of the fight. Yse I agree with many people, alpha is fun, he’s not overly hard on some fights, but on others he’s not fun at all, nor is he viable for anyone but apparently you "leet"ers to do.

The reality is alpha is far too easy. P1 is a trainer, p2 is a trainer and p3 is the two combined and the strat for ALL THREE is the exact same. Has nothing to do with elitism.

P1 is a snore, easiest boss in game second to turret tree in ta exp. P2 and 3, same strat as 1 but with dodging. Miss a dodge and you’re not stacked on melee? you die. Dodge twice without vigor, you’re down. That’s literally all there is to the fight. One button = win.

I take new players there all the time, most do well, some just don’t get it. But in the end, once they understand they realize that alpha is just a really boring fight that can be killed by two people without much effort. (and often is..)

I can’t count on one hand how many times i’ve started a convo in /p while duo’n alpha.

But I do agree with you, from another view maybe but the end result is the same.
It’s a terrible fight and is the perfect example of why gw2 needs hard mode. There is clearly a large gap between player skill in pve. The new AC is a prime example of how to fudge up bridging the gap, no one from either end of the spectrum is impressed by the changes.

i would really really really hate for alpha to be changed in any way "/

LiquidWolf.3879:

Lag spike, mis-dodge, and a misclick they die. In other dungeons this just isn’t the case. I’m finding the Subject Alpha in path 2 and 3 to be too punishing for what you get as rewards and what you need to do.

some other bosses are the same; lag spike in rumblus (well.. pre-change… havent done AC since its revamp) and you get murdered by its scream when you unspike
misdodge at kholer and you get whirlwinded to death (granted you can pop a stunbreaker and dodge away)
- bear in mind thats the first dungeon… coe is… second to last?; it SHOULD punish players if they play badly, and by the time they get to CoE they should have the basics down enough to be able to complete it with ease (but ofcourse we have the ‘no dungeons till 80’ troupe that goes against it)

LiquidWolf.3879:

He either uses his abilities too quickly, or he is hitting too hard. I do agree some of his animations/attacks could be changed to be more telling. I’d be willing to see that happen first and see if things get better.

aoe burn does negligible damage and can be cleansed
earth spike appears quickly but can be ‘evaded’ by not standing in front of his face
dragon teeth can be walked out of
ice spike aoe gives the player two seconds to notice it before going off (maybe not two seconds… but its the advice i always give newbies in CoE, ‘when you see the ice aoe; count to two then dodge’)

endurance shouldnt be an issue; i cant think of any class that doesnt have some form of invlun/mitigation
war has shield stance, whirlwind attack, endure pain and a number of 1 hit melee blocks (if used far enough away from alpha)
guard has renewed focus, shelter and focus5
engi has gear shield (does static shield actually block?)… and im sure other things; but too lazy to check and i barely play engi
ranger has evades on demand and gsblock (if used far enough away from alpha)
thief has evades on demand and shadowsteps,
elementalist has arcane shield, lightning flash, mist form, burning retreat, updraft and earth focus5,
mesmer has distortion, blur(red frenzy), blink and random aoe aegis,
necro has death shroud and… well… i cant think of anything else to directly evade damage… but death shroud works pretty well as a spike damage sponge)…

i think thats all 8 profs… (theres also racials… but the only one i can think of is the sylvari elite… and the ranged one hit blocks… though the only ones i can think of are the mesmer scepter/sword ones – which are unlikely to work as the aoes often overlap; meaning you might block one; but the second would still hit)

the only two professions that are constantly kitten at alpha are ranger (because theres no pet evade or mitigation; which sucks big time) and mesmer (because phantasms wont last long – but the other tricks it has for alpha make up for it -blink-)

(if a player doesnt have a weapon for every occasion that might arise at 80 then -imo- they’re playing wrong; looking at you guardians without scepters, warriors without rifle/LB and eles without foci(?))

-edited for clarity-

Endurance? You know if you have at least 25% speed you can just walk out of all his circles. With 33% you make it out with minor lag and/or sloppy reaction time. Add in the evade skills each class has and bet you could do this whole fight w/o dodging at all if you were focused enough.
I think people panic when they see all the circles sometimes. Yes, it is a multiple hit 1 shot(ie. no Aegis easy mode,) but to compensate you are given plenty of time to counter, a predictable pattern, and now lower health pools. This fight is balanced and needs no mods. I see it as the counter part to Lupi in Arah.

Nay of the Ether.8913:

The inconsistencies between the paths with alpha not to mention the inability to get a teammate revive off on certain alpha fights is what makes it a broken fight. The inconsistencies I’m talking about are like path 1, his skills hurt yes but they’re easily avoidable except maybe the earth spike, but path 2 he not only spams the attacks instantly, stacks them on top of each other, but specifically targets people being revived and it’s impossible to revive people. While dodging the circles are all well and fine for classes with tons of vigor and endurance regen, it’s not ok for classes without access to that. So why the inconsistency between path 1 and 2? Why make it so much harder without any external mechanics to make up for it? Also, the “lowered alpha’s health to help balance the encounter” was not the answer to fix these fights. It did nothing to address the problem which is in the boss’s skills and mechanics, not his health pool and the length of the fight. Yse I agree with many people, alpha is fun, he’s not overly hard on some fights, but on others he’s not fun at all, nor is he viable for anyone but apparently you "leet"ers to do.

- I run CoE every day, all three paths and on different classes. My advice to you is the one i give to the pugs I bring:

1) Learn to dodge. If you die, take that time to learn the timing of when to dodge. it is VERY consistent.
2) Get in melee range for the 2nd and 3rd encounters. If you are far away from the party and get crystallized, you are going to die 90% of the time. bring melee friendly dps.
3) there is a trick to stand still an not get damaged from the AOE spam, but it doesn’t work 30% of the time because of overlaps you missed and the random ice one.
4) For path 3, dodge INTO alpha and not away from alpha. Because if you dodge away from him he will mess you up with his cone earth attack if you happened to be targeted.

- In melee range you only need to dodge 1 skill. The massive spam circle aoe earth ice bleed attack. You have more than enough endurance for that esp with a trait or signet that increases endurance regen by 50%.

Happy CoEing.

Today… I took a group of people into Path 1 of CoE.

This is, far and wide, the easier of the paths to do. Simple stack up, use your debuff removals, and beat on him.

Some reason… it was atrocious. None of my party could stay alive, Debuffs, heals, nothing.

They knew to get to his back and avoid the cone, but for some reason they couldn’t keep themselves up.

We didn’t get past the first encounter of subject alpha because too many people were just… too slow to respond.

He’d turn to face someone to do the rock-cone-aoe, and they would respond just a little too late. Close or far.

He’d set everyone on fire when they would get close, and they couldn’t remove it because they’d already used it, or perhaps they just took a little too long to click it, and got hit by something else.

This is Path 1, submarine… I’ve done this all the time to guarantee at least one set of tokens from CoE for anyone that has done dungeons.

Necro
Hunter
Hunter
Mesmer
Mesmer

This particular group couldn’t do it. One of them had completed path 2 with me yesterday, and even complained that one was easier, because it didn’t have cone aoe.

I can take these people through CoF, HotW, SE, and even Arah. They might die a few times and wipe to a particular boss… but they complete it.

Many of the people I play with go into Arah with us for the first time and don’t seem to have this problem. Last time we went to Arah, four of us were there for the first time, and only spent 30 minutes on the Giant Wolf boss before beating him and completing the dungeon.

I really think Subject Alpha isn’t balanced like the rest of the bosses in CoE, nor in any other dungeon in the game. He is tuned just too high.

I can literally stay alive five minutes after everyone else in my party is dead… showing them how to dodge, and explaining how the fight works… and they do get it… they see it.

But they just can’t do it.

Compared to AC/Arah/HotW… dungeons they are fine with doing for the first time and getting through it… this is just too tough.

I’m going to say something in here that a lot of experienced CoE members probably already know, but is worth sharing since people who come to the forums might not know this already:

ALL of Subject Alpha’s Ring AoEs (excluding the earth spike line) can be walked out of. Yes, even the double rings. This fight can be completed without ANY vigor or Swiftness.

You just have to know where to stand.

Hint: watch the ground closely, it tells you more than just where the red rings are!

There are also some situations in which it is safe to leave someone in a crystal, and you can actually manipulate the safety of the person in the crystal. Knowing when to make these judgement calls may actually save the life of the person trapped.

Also, dodging before he casts his AoEs will prevent those AoEs from being placed.

LiquidWolf.3879:

Necro
Hunter
Hunter
Mesmer
Mesmer

5 sources of long-duration AOE condition removal (1 Well of Power, 2 Healing Spring, 2 Null Field) and you’re complaining that you can’t handle the Burn?

2 sources of party-wide 50% damage reduction (Phantasmal Defender) and you say Rock Cone is unmanageable?

You don’t even need to dodge its red rings of death.

How were your party members positioned? What weapons were they using? And I’m not even bothering to ask about Traits and builds because a) it doesn’t matter and b) if all five of you were condition damage build, stop trolling.

Imo p2 is easiest path to go range, well that’s what I like to do on my thief anyways. And in doing so, I have absolutely no need at all to dodge…like remove my endurance for the entirety of the fight and I’ll still be fine.

But it all boils down to knowing how to read his attacks and honestly…just youtube it…