Guild Wars 2

Played as an engineer since launch, and have never lost a spot for a different class. I play Fractals and every other dungeon, both in PUGs and organised teams, and I do it all the time.

Never seen this happen.

I believe it does happen, but it’s not often— keep looking around, you’ll find it’s not that big an issue.

Blacklight.2871:

Those two things are not exclusive. Non-elitists would know that.

Besides, Warriors haven’t had to try hard since release, yet they are always welcome. This is because your logic is flawed. It’s the professions who don’t have to try hard who are most in demand. Those that do are not welcome. Lazy players want an easy ride and they’ll kick without conscience, to ensure they work as little as possible for their reward.

Trying hard as in “trying to get the best clearing time, highest DPS and survaviability”. That’s where you have to choose a profession that has it, instead of a profession you would like to play.

I do agree that classes in this game are highly unbalanced. But it just proves my point.

And no, warriors aren’t easy mode if you actually play them correctly. Not like “hurr durr 100b cof speedrun whole day”.

Trying to get a good profession composition in a party is a legit way to play. Create your own parties if that’s not to your liking. No point flaming people just because they don’t want to carry you while you’re playing “your way”.

This is quite funny in a way because I remember originally nobody wanted mesmers in their group. Now its all mesmers/warriors.

Fay.2735:

This is quite funny in a way because I remember originally nobody wanted mesmers in their group. Now its all mesmers/warriors.

I hated mesmer’s when I was lvling up, they were the biggest drag tryin to lvl up when game first came out. I loved them in dungeons for timewarps even if thats the only thing they did.

I leveled a Mesmer to 30 a week back. It can get annoying at first, but once you start realizing some good combos, it gets easier. Solo’d a level 30 boss without problems thanks to Phantasmal Berserker (GS#4), Phantasmal Warden (Focus #5), and Phantasmal Defender.

Lightrayne.7829:

Oglaf.1074:

LyzeUH.1398:

Well yesterday I was doing CoE and we were stacking Alpha…one of my rangers was attacking the boss with his Longbow in melee range…I don’t even…someone explain…please…

Its easier to avoid his attacks in melee on most paths. Like his big ice AoE can’t target you if you’re humping him.

I think he’s referring to the ranger’s weapon of choice for the situation as that severely gimps any damage contribution. A shortbow, for example, would be more ideal because its damage is not affected by range and gives an extra dodge on skill 3.

There’s still some logic to his choice.

I guess.

If you are playing on EU servers, send me a mail (Gnarsh The Wall). I will be running an introductory run to fractals for some newer guildies & friends and will gladly take you along.

Incoming lengthy post about higher fractals (as in the ones you can currently do without cheesing):

Engineers are fine, if and only if, you use grenade kit. In fact, they’re a lot better than any other profession for the more difficult encounters if they’re geared properly, and utilizing that kit! Freeze Grenade can clump up a mob, shrapnel and barrage do heavy damage, and flash bangs help mitigate any incoming damage. The hardest fractal boss (Grawl) is made substantially easier with engineers, as they can run around and kite the lava oozes while still killing them (you can throw grenades over your shoulder, it’s pretty awesome while running). My group and I have had very much success with our setup.

However, now for the bad part – we don’t allow rangers in our group anymore. At least not on 30+. Their AoE is the worst amongst all the classes (mesmer isn’t so hot either, but at least iBerserker does a huge chunk of AoE damage + cripple). Ranger has 2 decent AoE methods – the first is on a very large cooldown (Barrage), but it’s also channeled so they might get gibbed in the process. The only time I appreciate barrage is when we’re doing the Ascalon fractal. Their other method is axes – which is a whopping 3 targets hit, and they have to be facing their target. Their burst is nonexistent due to pets becoming crippled macro-minipets, and their sustained damage isn’t even that hot at range, which is kind of a kick in the groin when you realize their other options are pretty weak (I’ll admit – sword/x does great damage, but being locked in to your attacks will get you killed).

We’ve also shied away from bringing staff elementalists or thieves, and.. well, any engineer that pulls out a flamethrower. If the thief clearly knows their class (as in we see permaweakness on the mobs), we’ll add them to our friends, but most PUGs where we grab a 5th or maybe a 4th too? Nah, get out, guardians/warriors/grenade engineers/ dd or sd eles/sword mesmers only. We need aoE for the harder stuff, and while sure, your ranger can get carried through a setup like ocean/swamp/blizzard, if we end up hitting grawl on that third fractal, we don’t want to spend 30 minutes wiping at the boss because you’re a worthless pile when the oozes spawn. I’ve seen some great players who used ranger on that part do their best, but it’s not within the class’s limitations – they back up, axe the oozes, but the damage output is laughable. Meanwhile, I’m strolling past with 5 oozes behind me, grenading oozes chasing other players to help them live, swapping to tool kit to Box of Nails (2 of them actually due to kit refinement) cripple the mob behind me, and start rifling down the Shaman before he heals. I’m done now.

P.S.: Not much reason to discriminate pre-10 fractals. 10-20, if you have 3+ of the ‘bad’ PvE setups I’ve mentioned above, you’re gonna be in for a rough time. 20-30, 2+. 30+, we just don’t want any in case we bump into the angry grawl.

SynfulChaot.3169:

I, personally, run a ranger main and several other level 80 alts (fully geared). I have had others request me to run my ranger (on multiple occasions) over the alts as they (and myself) feel I contribute better with her.

I see that as a very unflattering comment about the way you play your other characters.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Also, saying that just because the ranger has ‘the fewest party utility / survival skills’ (a questionable statement) they cannot be a boon to a team is a disservice.

The post you are replying to starts with “[rangers] can certainly be competent and help the rest of the team”. Any competent player is “a boon to the team”, compared to a bad one. But rangers objectively lack party support skills, compared to any other class. The fact that they can take advantage of other players’ combo fields doesn’t really do much to help those other players, it just means the other players can help the ranger.

SET.3275:

You can recognize the good necro by the time he is swapping his weapons. I guess the above statement is about those who play all the time with staff and doesnt swap at all.

Another good hint is what elite they equip. Lich Form is fine for boss fights, but Plague (20-second multi-target AoE blind + party stability) is the best “ohkitten” skill in the game, and any necro with a clue will have that on when fighting large groups of dungeon mobs. It can keep the entire party safe while running through pretty much anything.

Problem with Plague is the CD though. I stick with my flesh golem most of the time.

I am surprised no one re-mentioned the elephant in the room when it comes to rangers. Their pet cannot be stowed. Back in the day when I was still running CM and more recently HOTW, oh how I loathed rangers and their kitteny pets. Now that I dont run these 2 dungeons as often, I dont get kitten at them. In fact ranger is the best class to play if you are a noob or just, u know, bad. Just stay 1500 range and fire away and send in your pet.

Oh and btw, as for taking advantage of combo fields, the ranger is the ONLY class that doesnt have a blast finisher. Admittedly the mesmer has only one which is on torch which no one ever uses except the game designer apparently.

Account.9832:

SynfulChaot.3169:

I, personally, run a ranger main and several other level 80 alts (fully geared). I have had others request me to run my ranger (on multiple occasions) over the alts as they (and myself) feel I contribute better with her.

I see that as a very unflattering comment about the way you play your other characters.

I play them all very well, thankyouverymuch (that implication was unnecessary, BTW), but some prefer the high survivability of my ranger at all ranges and in all situations. I have saved parties with my mobility and utilities on more than one occasion.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Also, saying that just because the ranger has ‘the fewest party utility / survival skills’ (a questionable statement) they cannot be a boon to a team is a disservice.

The post you are replying to starts with “[rangers] can certainly be competent and help the rest of the team”. Any competent player is “a boon to the team”, compared to a bad one. But rangers objectively lack party support skills, compared to any other class. The fact that they can take advantage of other players’ combo fields doesn’t really do much to help those other players, it just means the other players can help the ranger.

Rangers do not lack party support any more than certain DPS spec’d professions. Rangers are not meant to be heavy support, thus why they do not have a lot of support skills. They are meant to be damaging skirmishers which they do quite effectively, provided the player knows how to play them well.

Kamahl.3621:

However, now for the bad part – we don’t allow rangers in our group anymore. At least not on 30+.

Old Tom 5 ranger party anybody?

Rangers are not the worst class. I really dont give two cares about blast finishers, plenty of teams do fine and actually do beyond fine into quite well without blast finishers. I dont think ive eveer used a blast finisher on guardian or warrior or mesmer and I dont care too because the weapons which have them, suck. Hammer guard/war is not for dungeon, GS is.

Rangers actually have good AoE FOR THE GRAWL FRACTAL but you must be traited, and also it takes skill. Arrows pierce targets. Its not ele AoE, but then again neither is melee weapons. The difficulty comes in, you have to select the farthest back target to get them to pierce everything and in a huge zerg of monsters its hard to obtain a target like that.

Im not defending rangers, or saying they are “good” but just wanted to dispel some of the reasons why people arent taking them. Theres plenty of reasons why I might not, but definatly not for the reasons above.

When will people realize EVERY class can do everything. Yes your engi is good at grawl. Gz. The thief daggerstorm build seems cool, Id like to see it, I bet its good. Mesmers are good at grawl. Guardians are good at grawl. CONGRATS. None are better. Its just theres more emphasis put on REFLECT PLS over engi, which takes seemingly alot of work and steps, but when done properly, achives the same affect.

My staff ele hits 1.8-2.8k spam #1 skill (aoe) in fire attunment in exotic MF gear. Thats decent DPS imo. Especially for auto attack + MF gear.

Remember, when your kiting and running, you deal 0 damage (conditions aside) so a ranger who can spam auto attack and run at least hits for something

This was always going to happen when agony was introduced. Big mistake, but what is done is done. Regular dungeons, I’ve never seen it happen in my groups, I’ve seen it happen, but that was just a try hard group. Now I see every ranger, every engineer and every necro get instabooted.

JJBigs.8456:

Arrows pierce targets.

Linear AoE isn’t really sufficient when the oozes are in a horizontal cluster trailing behind players. You might hit 2, possibly 3 in that situation on a good moment – and to be blunt, engineer rifle has a harder hitting potential in those cases. Only time piercing is useful is when you’re trying to hit the Shaman through some oozes.

Kamahl.3621:

JJBigs.8456:

Arrows pierce targets.

Linear AoE isn’t really sufficient when the oozes are in a horizontal cluster trailing behind players. You might hit 2, possibly 3 in that situation on a good moment – and to be blunt, engineer rifle has a harder hitting potential in those cases. Only time piercing is useful is when you’re trying to hit the Shaman through some oozes.

That is exactly why piercing is useful. You keep attacking the shaman and strafing to keep the oozes between. That way you take out the oozes while maintaining pressure on the Shaman.

SynfulChaot.3169:

That is exactly why piercing is useful. You keep attacking the shaman and strafing to keep the oozes between. That way you take out the oozes while maintaining pressure on the Shaman.

How exactly is that useful? You’re pewpewing one, maybe two, while an engineer or warrior or guardian is slamming 3-5 at a time, with actual crowd control effects. Where’s the ranger’s blind? Their cripple on the move? Anything at all? There is not a single bow ability that hits harder than the auto attack, sadly – they’re all for defense or conditions, and then we have Barrage – a skill that will take you getting a good distance away from any nearby oozes (so they don’t root + kill you with their ability) before you can make any use of it. If poison volley crippled, perhaps I’d say otherwise – but it doesn’t.

And you don’t break his shield immediately. The smart thing to do is to get him down to 1-2 points left on the shield, kill as many oozes as possible before he heals, and then break it down. Again – ranger is a suboptimal choice for this fight. There is no build on ranger that makes them suddenly an ‘oh god yes I want you on my team’ – spirits are severely limited (in fact without a 30 point trait they’d burn to death). Healing Spring is great though – that’ll counter the roots. Not the damage though, regeneration alone isn’t much. 15 second water field is awesome though. Sadly that’s the best feature of the entire class until pets are revamped.

I did a 38 run earlier that went incredibly smooth. 2 mesmers, 2 engineers, 1 guardian. The mesmers were using sword/pistol and greatsword, the guardian GS and staff, and both engineers grenade/rifle. It was smooth as silk – the guardian even commented that the DPS was absurdly high compared to usual, and he was pleasantly surprised with that, given seeing 2 engineers made him think it would be an awful run. And, yes, the other engineer and I run very similar builds, he just runs elixir R/S where I run toolkit.

This is getting so into specifics but honestly, if you wanna go there. You know what the best team is, dont kid yourself. 4 warriors, 1 guardian. It really doesnt matter what you can do because they can do something different, itll work, and since it involves lots of DPS, itll be faster. I dont doubt your engi can do even 40+ level fotm Grawl. But not to say its the most efficient. Sure, people dont scream for rangers but ive never seen a post for engineer either, but I have got 3 free dailys by being the only guardian on failteams on 3rd fractal by helping them.

There is no build that counters the damage from the Add’s lol. You crazy. The tankiest of tankiest cannot just tank through the Add’s. Obviously you need to mitigate, kite, CC, something. So ranger doesnt really need healing spring to counter the adds as hopefully they will be far and kiting good enough.

JJBigs.8456:

There is no build that counters the damage from the Add’s lol. You crazy. The tankiest of tankiest cannot just tank through the Add’s. Obviously you need to mitigate, kite, CC, something. So ranger doesnt really need healing spring to counter the adds as hopefully they will be far and kiting good enough.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blind

The oozes attack fairly slow. Warrior Longbow 4, Guardian [anything], Engineer Flashbang / Smoke Bomb, Necro Blinds, any projectile reflection. Boom. You just mitigated a horde of oozes while getting to wail on them in turn. Warriors taper off at higher fractals given how impossibly hard mobs start to hit in melee – the margin for error becomes incredibly small. And when a warrior isn’t in melee, their damage output becomes more on par with an axe necro. This isn’t CoF where the mobs will stand there and take it – walking up to the Archdiviner will get you a crater where your face was. And Guardian DPS is uh.. well, after last patch, their best DPS build was neutered. They can still do solid though – but they aren’t on par with a warrior anymore.

Kamahl.3621:

SynfulChaot.3169:

That is exactly why piercing is useful. You keep attacking the shaman and strafing to keep the oozes between. That way you take out the oozes while maintaining pressure on the Shaman.

How exactly is that useful? You’re pewpewing one, maybe two, while an engineer or warrior or guardian is slamming 3-5 at a time, with actual crowd control effects. Where’s the ranger’s blind? Their cripple on the move? Anything at all? There is not a single bow ability that hits harder than the auto attack, sadly – they’re all for defense or conditions, and then we have Barrage – a skill that will take you getting a good distance away from any nearby oozes (so they don’t root + kill you with their ability) before you can make any use of it. If poison volley crippled, perhaps I’d say otherwise – but it doesn’t.

And you don’t break his shield immediately. The smart thing to do is to get him down to 1-2 points left on the shield, kill as many oozes as possible before he heals, and then break it down. Again – ranger is a suboptimal choice for this fight. There is no build on ranger that makes them suddenly an ‘oh god yes I want you on my team’ – spirits are severely limited (in fact without a 30 point trait they’d burn to death). Healing Spring is great though – that’ll counter the roots. Not the damage though, regeneration alone isn’t much. 15 second water field is awesome though. Sadly that’s the best feature of the entire class until pets are revamped.

I did a 38 run earlier that went incredibly smooth. 2 mesmers, 2 engineers, 1 guardian. The mesmers were using sword/pistol and greatsword, the guardian GS and staff, and both engineers grenade/rifle. It was smooth as silk – the guardian even commented that the DPS was absurdly high compared to usual, and he was pleasantly surprised with that, given seeing 2 engineers made him think it would be an awful run. And, yes, the other engineer and I run very similar builds, he just runs elixir R/S where I run toolkit.

Run a shortbow. Both a cripple and a daze/stun, plus constant bleeds and frequent poison. All attacks work on the go. And when the shield bubble comes up, auto-attack and swap pets. Quick quickness burst. Can almost solo that shield down in seconds.

Rangers are highly useful if played right. I am sorry that you have not encountered many good rangers, but we do exist.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Run a shortbow. Both a cripple and a daze/stun, plus constant bleeds and frequent poison. All attacks work on the go. And when the shield bubble comes up, auto-attack and swap pets. Quick quickness burst. Can almost solo that shield down in seconds.

Rangers are highly useful if played right. I am sorry that you have not encountered many good rangers, but we do exist.

Again, these are all in a line. When I drop a freeze grenade, or a supply crate, or a mesmer uses iBerserker, or an elementalist any of their many AoE chills, they’re going to hit 5 of the oozes almost every time. A ranger would be lucky to hit 2, and the cripple lasts 3 seconds. Maybe 4 with all the points into a condition duration traitline. The ranger doesn’t even have a method to survive any sudden spikes of root abuse (by this I mean an invuln essentially – endure pain, shield stance, gear shield, renewed focus, etc) – their best bet at that point is to chain their evasion skills and hope that the current root falls off before another refreshes.

I’m going to just stop bothering, it’s clear you’re the kind of detriment who will defend subpar play and magic find to the death, and argue for the sake of arguing. 5 > 2, Chill > Cripple, and Anything > Ranger (until a tweak to pets occurs).

Regardless of blind, the oozes are spread out like crazy. Even with crowd control, i.e. binding blade you will never get them all. Knockbacks would be kitten as that spread them out further. Youd need the whole island filled with AOE blind to even attempt to get them all blinded. My virtue of justice blinds and my GS blinds, I think nothing of them. I would get downed in 0.5 seconds if i relied on AoE blind to save me. I use it yes, but i still take MASSIVE damage from add’s as there is tons of them. Refferring to high levels? Theres even more, driving it home harder.

Cripple and chill? They shoot projectiles I cant see how this would help ever besides you having to run to the corner and hide and have them not follow you. You just need them balled, not snared. No one needs them crippled and chilled to live. Ive never had a group go PLS CRIPPLE OR PLS CHILL. You also will not be able to get them all..no way…

Id like to see someone tank a pack of monsters by spamming blind. The only class that I can even remotely see doing that is thief and thats so sketch I dont even want too.

Support, is best by guardian. DPS, best by warrior. Other classes offer forms of support/DPS but nothing is as good. It does work though.

Lets even say warrior dps with longbow = any light/medium. In the end, they have heavier armor so it might take 2 hits vs 1. No matter how small, its better. They also can quickly switch to GS, bust that 100k burst of 100b and go back to range.

I dont want to make this profession/class wars but just I cant see how you think your engi is so good when clearly, other classses are better. And if your not playing the best, then shh because Ranger’s arent as bad as you make them out to be. If i dont play with all warriors and guardians, I dont care what medium/light classes join because they are all the same to me. Basically, were going to frontline, they are going to support and pew pew. I dont care if they heal, blind, stealth, projectile mitigate because I am self sufficient.

I never have found myself going “YAY” a <Insert non-heavy> Class is in my party. None of them bring anything to the table a war or guard cannot do. Becuase of that I dont see how you can say rangers are so bad.

Kamahl.3621:

I’m going to just stop bothering, it’s clear you’re the kind of detriment who will defend subpar play and magic find to the death, and argue for the sake of arguing. 5 > 2, Chill > Cripple, and Anything > Ranger (until a tweak to pets occurs).

I defend neither MagiFind nor subpar play. I dislike MF as a stat and have voiced that dislike many times, though I do not exclude those who choose to run it. And I play my favored profession as well as it can be played. It is true it may not be OP like some others (warrior, ele, mesmer, thief), but it is still a good class if played right.

Unlike some, I prefer to play the game instead of the meta. I choose a class, then play that class. And I have yet to find a single player that has ever voiced any complaint of my skill, regardless of which chara I am playing.

sigh i agree with you engineers hardly get any love, i fun a first aid/eixiler gun combo and it really good, i can carry a team via heal till all the way to 30s, esp in boss fight or group mobs fight where putting down first aid combo with supply crates and super eixiler , you can full heal a team to full health making them fight longer and also makes most fight easier but sadly i got kick off a fractual once by SKY guild after 45 mins spend in clearing a fotm32 with no what so ever reason ,sadly most players view the best 3 class (warrior,guardian and mesmer) to be the best and the others they assume that they are carry them but in a good group like i have 2 friends which i always play with , they had clearly state over and over that pass fotm 25 without me around a fotm becomes long and grunesome

@Salo: I’ll just encourage you to use GW2LFG and advertise as an engineer. Look on the engineer forum for a build I’ve advocated several times – 30/10/0/0/30, all the kits, and you’ll be doing more ranged damage, cc, and utility than any other class trying it’s hardest (and you can compete with warriors in damage – although I’ll admit, if the mob is against a wall, whirlwind attack will put them ahead by a little bit more, and at that point it’s overall a ~15% difference). Freezes, heals, cripples, and most importantly of all, raw damage. This is the build the other engineer and I run and advocate – and perhaps if more players start using it, engineer will be seen in a more favorable light. We treat flamethrower engineers worse than anything, I’ll admit – at least if they won’t change up after we request them to stop using that kit.

Exactly. If I dont go meta (which clearly isnt engi) then it doesnt matter what other class joins. They are all sub meta. But it works

firstly for those who have no idea what a engineer can do, will you pick a guardian who can give ageis and heal for a few sec with a 60s+ cd or will you pefer a engineer who can lay down 4.5k hp if first aid every 12 sec not counting the engineer ability to lay down 2 super eixiler every 15 sec which heal 280 per tick with the additional ability of removing 1 condition every sec

salohcin.6834:

firstly for those who have no idea what a engineer can do, will you pick a guardian who can give ageis and heal for a few sec with a 60s+ cd or will you pefer a engineer who can lay down 4.5k hp if first aid every 12 sec not counting the engineer ability to lay down 2 super eixiler every 15 sec which heal 280 per tick with the additional ability of removing 1 condition every sec

As a guardian, I can lay down powerful heals ever 3-4 seconds, maintain permanent protection, and give the party a pretty powerful regen that stacks with other regen sources. And that is just by auto-attacking.

Engies may be good, but when it comes to pure party support guardians are better. Not sure where eles are on the support scale.

No amount of cripple, heals, chilled is going to save the team from ADD’s. Giving minor heals when mobs comparitive to damage being taken will not save anyone. Also, when have you guys EVER seen a team so balled up that a AOE heal would affect everyone? (Lava would pwn them) When have you EVER seen a symbol from guardian that the entire party stands inside? (Most play ranged damage) How would one even know the engi is about to throw a elixir if you dont say it over VoiP? When have you EVER seen a person at 1200 range benefit from a shout? If you guys use the kits and all to heal yourself, and then proceed to DPS, more power to you, but to suggest you can carry a team when no profession can heal to carry a team is laughable.

Btw, Healing/Medical Kit or whatever is a consumble. Its not engineer specific.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Medical_Kit

What im trying to say is Engineers are not top tier so dont act like they are the best ever. They are OK, just like every other medium/light. They cant do the things people desperately need or you would see more youtube videos of them, you would see more LFG’s for them after people see the same results as others. They help but they are not far superior above rangers, which is what started this.

lol rofl medical kit is an engineer kit it skill 6 and it puts down a bag which can heals from 1.1k to 1.5k hp

JJBigs.8456:

No amount of cripple, heals, chilled is going to save the team from ADD’s.

This is the kind of engineering thought that makes people think we’re bad. I’m going to get to work on a video to prove otherwise, as I’m getting a bit sick of uncreative / pessimistic / bad players saying they’re bad. Chilling the cluster of oozes will make them unable to hit kiting players. Blinding them will also do the same thing. An engineer has no issue whatsoever surviving the adds – if you get rooted, pop gear shield and chug down some medpacks or blow your healing turret, whichever one you run will work here. It only takes one second. Not to mention if someone goes down, and pings a target, it only takes a small bit of movement to get in position to kill their rallying target. Fyi, jump shot can be used for more than damage – getting away from an ooze mob, or jumping into one for a double grenade barrage nuke, then back out with acid bomb, can often clear out a good chunk of their health, or kill them entirely – if not, you’ve still got blunderbuss and throw wrench to finish the job.

i so agree with kamahl, it jsut that most people have not play with good engineers in dungs or fractuals that allow them to see it’s strength in fotm

Kamahl.3621:

JJBigs.8456:

No amount of cripple, heals, chilled is going to save the team from ADD’s.

This is the kind of engineering thought that makes people think we’re bad. I’m going to get to work on a video to prove otherwise, as I’m getting a bit sick of uncreative / pessimistic / bad players saying they’re bad. Chilling the cluster of oozes will make them unable to hit kiting players. Blinding them will also do the same thing. An engineer has no issue whatsoever surviving the adds – if you get rooted, pop gear shield and chug down some medpacks or blow your healing turret, whichever one you run will work here. It only takes one second. Not to mention if someone goes down, and pings a target, it only takes a small bit of movement to get in position to kill their rallying target. Fyi, jump shot can be used for more than damage – getting away from an ooze mob, or jumping into one for a double grenade barrage nuke, then back out with acid bomb, can often clear out a good chunk of their health, or kill them entirely – if not, you’ve still got blunderbuss and throw wrench to finish the job.

We are not saying they are bad, per se. We are saying that they are not one of the top classes. Same as you are saying that rangers are not, which I will not argue. All that matters is making the most of your chosen profession and playing it well. But please don’t try to convince us that an engy will outperform the top OP classes. It may be good, but it is not that good.

JJBigs.8456:

They help but they are not far superior above rangers, which is what started this.

Anyone play a ranger in PVP? Even after PVP balanced skills etc? Well in PVE I have yet to meet a lvl 80 ranger that uses MELEE on the rare occasion the fight is better suited to melee (Hint: Subject Alpha). The best thing about Engis they only need to get a few exo weapons as their weapons are all util skills ie Toolkit, Elixer gun etc.

As for healing, I think not many who dont play engi knows that if traited and timed properly with Kit Refinement you can have a perma Super elixir Heal (but this works only in theory as no one will bother to time exactly). Thats not the end of it. Drop the Supply Crate and it comes with a Healing Turret (alternatively equip Healing turret as heal) which gives Regen Boon which is seperate from Super Elixir. Wait – still not the end of it, equip Mortar as elite and you get yet ANOTHER stackable heal field (15s CD, 5s duration) separate from aforementioned Super Elixir and Healing Turret. An Engi could even use the consumable Med kit to drop more bandages etc. if he/she uses the Healing Turret.

And you know what? I use the Healing Seed turret in conjunction with a few of the above-mentioned which can be healed itself.

You get all this support + you can do good damage + various different attacks with grenades + like ranger, all at 1500 range when traited, although the downside is that grenades are slow moving. So tell me whether engi is better than ranger or not, notwithstanding the hindrance you call a pet (which rangers complain about all the time on their own forum).

Khal Drogo.9631:

You get all this support + you can do good damage + various different attacks with grenades + like ranger, all at 1500 range when traited, although the downside is that grenades are slow moving. So tell me whether engi is better than ranger or not, notwithstanding the hindrance you call a pet (which rangers complain about all the time on their own forum).

I do not think one is empirically better than the other at everything. Neither class is the warrior, after all. ^.^ I think that the engineer is definitely better at support than the ranger and probably better at AoE, but not as good at pure damage, condition or otherwise.

I forgot to mention tool kit skills, one in particular called Grenade Barrage. Its 8 grenades all at once and my engi is traited with vulnerability on crit. Engis complain about damage but I believe it is in context vs the Warrior (without resorting to convoluted juggling of weapons, traiting, etc). The player only needs to hit the HB button and insta 20-30k damage with many stacks of might being the difference, with far superior armor and health to boot

I do enjoy seeing engineers, and some of the other lesser-played classes when I get PUGs. reminds me that people are still enjoying their class regardless.

SynfulChaot.3169:

I have had others request me to run my ranger (on multiple occasions) over the alts as they (and myself) feel I contribute better with her.

I see that as a very unflattering comment about the way you play your other characters.

I play them all very well, thankyouverymuch

Well, if you say so it must be true.

SynfulChaot.3169:

some prefer the high survivability of my ranger at all ranges and in all situations.

High survivability? If your ranger is more survivable than your guardian or necro (for example), you’re probably doing something wrong when playing those.

SynfulChaot.3169:

I have saved parties with my mobility and utilities on more than one occasion.

Saved parties with your mobility? Could you be a bit more specific?

SynfulChaot.3169:

Rangers do not lack party support any more than certain DPS spec’d professions.

Of course they do. A necro can give its entire party stability for 20 seconds, while also blinding every enemy around them. A guardian can put up a reflecting wall or dome, protecting the entire party from projectiles, while periodically giving his teammates regeneration, adding a burning effect to their attack, and giving them aegis, that will absorb 100% of any hit. Elementalists can give the whole party boons every time they change attunement, have the biggest AoE heals, etc..

Rangers are the closest thing GW2 has to a pure DPS class, except their DPS isn’t even that impressive.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Rangers are not meant to be heavy support, thus why they do not have a lot of support skills.

I have no idea what any class is “meant” to be; I’m not inside the designers’ minds. I know what they are. And ranger is by far the least versatile and least party-orientated class in GW2. I’m not saying it’s your fault or that rangers are necessarily clueless (I play ranger too, BTW), I’m just stating something that anyone can confirm by playing the game (or even simply by looking at the lists of skills available to each profession). Ranger have far less ways to help other players or compensate for their mistakes.

JJBigs.8456:

When will people realize EVERY class can do everything.

Wait, so rangers can give their party stability and aegis? Warriors can stealth their teammates? Elementalists can make portals?

I stop playing for two weeks and they add a ton of new skills!

Very sad to hear this. Whisper me in game if you need help, I mostly play a Guardian and I don’t discriminate against any class as I believe that a good party can overcome every encounter with proper strategy. I admit that, while some classes are more desiderable ( Guardians especially for their projectile reflection ), every class has its unique perks and their overall performance is relatively balanced.

I also take pleasure in leaving parties that kick thieves/rangers or people with 25 AR (we are talking fractal lv 30+) if they didn’t post their requirements in the lfg. Ah! Where is your precious Guardian now, baddies?

In GW2, you bring the player, not the class. If a player knows their class, they can do fractal 40 and more while being more useful to the party than bad guardians.

While I don’t kick anyone based on class, the engi has been hit hard with the nerf-bat, and they haven’t gained much to compensate for that. They’re definitely one of the least powerful professions, though some of their healing builds are good; basically, anything you want to do with an engi is done better by another class. I abandoned my engi halfway to 80 because of that, and I just didn’t find it fun to play a “Jack of all trades, master of none” class. However, any class played by a skilled player will do fine in Dungeons/FotM (more so in FotM, as player skill accounts for a far greater percentage of your success rate than actual build). Anyone that says necros are lacking in dungeons is welcome to send me a party invite anytime to be proven wrong. Rangers work just fine if built properly for it, though they aren’t as heavy on party support as some classes, they’re decent and can do good damage if set up correctly (see shortbow 1 plus whatever that trait is that makes arrows pierce). Thieves are great in dungeons if played well, and can outdamage anyone with the group’s buffs taken into account. Basically, the problem you run into is this:

It is EASIER to be effective on some classes than others. Warriors/Guardians can be effective if played by a trained monkey. Eles are only a little more complex depending on build, and while Mesmers are a trickier class to get the hang of, their more powerful assets (Time Warp, Portal, etc) are fairly simple, so you can still bring a good chunk of utility to a group even if you suck with the rest of the class.

Necros I find pretty easy to play effectively, I think everyone runs into problems when they try to build for conditions or minions. Sorry for anyone who loves those, but they’re a little slow in general PvE and utterly mediocre (conditions) to fail (minions) in dungeons. Bringing the right setup and traits/utilities is necessary, but once you do it’s pretty powerful.

Engis, Rangers, and Thieves all take a good deal of thought and skill to become effective with in dungeon settings, and that’s the problem. Since none of them have big red “I win!” buttons like other classes, there’s a larger majority of those classes that don’t have the skill required to play them properly. Any class played with a high level of skill will be equally effective in a dungeon; the problem is that leading up to that high level of skill, some classes have higher levels of effectiveness than others.

Noob Warrior: Goes down a lot, does good damage.

Noob Ranger: Is there even a fifth person in this party?

Ok Warrior: Goes down sometimes, does good damage, buffs party a little.

Ok Ranger: Is there even a fifth person in this party?

Good Warrior: Whoah, that’s pretty sweet.

Good Ranger: Whoah, that’s pretty sweet.

Account.9832:

SynfulChaot.3169:

some prefer the high survivability of my ranger at all ranges and in all situations.

High survivability? If your ranger is more survivable than your guardian or necro (for example), you’re probably doing something wrong when playing those.

Survivable via dodging and mobility. I can stay fully mobile on my ranger during the entirely of battle and I am almost never hit. My guardian is sturdier, yes, as is my necro. Both can take more hits. But neither has the endurance regen and the ability to outright dodge half as well as my ranger.

Account.9832:

SynfulChaot.3169:

I have saved parties with my mobility and utilities on more than one occasion.

Saved parties with your mobility? Could you be a bit more specific?

Other, sturdier, charas went down/died and, due to my aforementioned ‘not getting hit’, I was still alive to jump in and rez them. Also, I tend to use dodges and mobility skills to briefly jump into melee just to drop my healing spring to assist the melee fighters.

Account.9832:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Rangers do not lack party support any more than certain DPS spec’d professions.

Of course they do. A necro can give its entire party stability for 20 seconds, while also blinding every enemy around them. A guardian can put up a reflecting wall or dome, protecting the entire party from projectiles, while periodically giving his teammates regeneration, adding a burning effect to their attack, and giving them aegis, that will absorb 100% of any hit. Elementalists can give the whole party boons every time they change attunement, have the biggest AoE heals, etc..

Rangers are the closest thing GW2 has to a pure DPS class, except their DPS isn’t even that impressive.

Yes, the ranger is not great support. I am not arguing that they are. I am saying that rangers are DPS, not support. You do not expect you DPS classes to support you as that is not their role.

Account.9832:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Rangers are not meant to be heavy support, thus why they do not have a lot of support skills.

I have no idea what any class is “meant” to be; I’m not inside the designers’ minds. I know what they are. And ranger is by far the least versatile and least party-orientated class in GW2. I’m not saying it’s your fault or that rangers are necessarily clueless (I play ranger too, BTW), I’m just stating something that anyone can confirm by playing the game (or even simply by looking at the lists of skills available to each profession). Ranger have far less ways to help other players or compensate for their mistakes.

You can see what classes are meant to be here in a post from the main game designer Jonathan Sharp. As you can see, the ranger is designed around dealing damage and mobility, not party support.

Yes, they are less versatile than many others, but I do not think they are the least. Each ranger I know runs a very different build. All of them are effective. It is true that they have few skills to help others but, as I mentioned before, rangers are DPS, not support.

Orion.7264:

Engis, Rangers, and Thieves all take a good deal of thought and skill to become effective with in dungeon settings, and that’s the problem. Since none of them have big red “I win!” buttons like other classes, there’s a larger majority of those classes that don’t have the skill required to play them properly. Any class played with a high level of skill will be equally effective in a dungeon; the problem is that leading up to that high level of skill, some classes have higher levels of effectiveness than others.

This is very true, and unfortunately many cannot see that all classes are very useful if played well.

Orion.7264:

Noob Warrior: Goes down a lot, does good damage.
Noob Ranger: Is there even a fifth person in this party?
Ok Warrior: Goes down sometimes, does good damage, buffs party a little.
Ok Ranger: Is there even a fifth person in this party?
Good Warrior: Whoah, that’s pretty sweet.
Good Ranger: Whoah, that’s pretty sweet.

I don’t think ‘ok’ rangers are quite that bad, but there is a higher skill curve for playing it well.

Account.9832:

JJBigs.8456:

When will people realize EVERY class can do everything.

Wait, so rangers can give their party stability and aegis? Warriors can stealth their teammates? Elementalists can make portals?

I stop playing for two weeks and they add a ton of new skills!

What you didn’t know about the uber elementalist berserker backstab trap build?

You should’ve read the patch notes. :P

Diy.5296:

When someone wants X class over other classes, it’s just showing you they themselves aren’t very good, and they need be carried. Now a days I steer clear of those groups advertising need war/guard, because it’s basically advertising they suck.

Keep telling yourself that.

It’s not that people can’t do it with a certain group build or that they’re not good themselves. It’s that they’d rather do it FASTER with a better group build.

Alright, I’m going to give you guys the answer you don’t want to hear.

This is not an Anet issue, but an issue with the GW2LFG website. The traditional LFG system implemented in others MMOs only cares about three things “dps, healer, tank” and picks whatever is available.

When this game launched there was no GW2LFG website so you had to hunt around in map chat on your server or sit in front of dungeons to find players. You cared more about finding players than actual group composition and the ability to play with other players cross realm helped ease that problem.

Then gw2lfg became popular right around when Fractal’s came out and helped alleviate the problems above with finding players.

Now, the difference between gw2lfg and regular LFG tools is the players pick who they want, not the system. I mean, imagine trying to find 4 berserker warriors on a low pop server via map chat @ 3 pm EST on a Weekday — it’s not going to happen.

What GW2LFG should do is remove the “comments” option and create drop downs that only say which path you’re doing. It’s not a problem on Anet’s end, but a problem with the players, the tools available, and the ignorant few who are ruining it for everyone else.

ComeAndSee.1356:

What GW2LFG should do is remove the “comments” option and create drop downs that only say which path you’re doing. It’s not a problem on Anet’s end, but a problem with the players, the tools available, and the ignorant few who are ruining it for everyone else.

So what you’re saying is that people who choose to run certain types of groups shouldn’t be allowed to because you don’t approve of the way that they choose to play their game?

My point here is that while you might not like it or while it may in fact be petty, you don’t have the right to dictate how others play the game which is what you’re getting at. Besides, people will find a way around it even if you disable comments. Instead, you’ll just get booted from groups more often right after you join because they don’t like your class instead of them being able to filter what they want before inviting/accepting invites.

HEY OP. Send me a tell anytime in game I am lvl 31 form level and run with any class anytime and will happily do low level fractals all day long.

As an engineer I have never been kicked out of a group because of my class. I ran cof, ac, cm and Fractals up to lvl 10 with no problems about my class or dmg. I think the reason you were kicked was not because of your class but probably something else instead. Like maybe they wanted a guildy to join instead, which has happened to me before the dungeon even started. If it is happening make your own group instead.