Guild Wars 2

I have a few questions about Ice bow and how it can be most effectivly used.
FYI, i dont run in super organized groups. I run with my ele buddy who relieably drops ice bows during boss fights and I just want to know how best to use it. On any given dungeon run, 2 or 3 of the others are pug pick ups. We often dont have full might stacks or vuln stacks.

So my questions:
1) Is there a preferred profession to pick up the extra ice bow? Much of the time, I see the ice bow sitting there, and I pick it up becuase nobody else is. In an ideal situation though, is it best in the hands of a particular profession, all other things being equal?

2) is ice bow always a dps gain? Should someone ALWAYS pick up the extra ice bow? Is there anybody who shouldnet becuase their normal rotation is better than ice bow?

3) whats the proper ice bow rotation? My buddy usually tkaes care of the deep freeze, so I usually just drop a #4, maybe a #2 if there isnt much vuln, then I drop the bow and go back to whatever I’m normally doing. Is that the optimal? I imagine its a loss to camp ice bow to get off a second #4.

I think thats it, thanks

1) Thieves have (had?) an Improvisation trait that gives them a damage boost with bundles. I never bother with it on my thief, but as far as I know that’s the only distinction between classes wrt ice bow dps. Love to hear more from the theorycrafters on this though.

2) As long as the ele doesn’t say not to touch it, it’s fair game in my book. I doubt anything will out-DPS IB 4 + 3, but I’m not certain.

3) If we’re lacking vuln, I try to pop 2 while I get in a good position for 4. After 4 is done, run/steal/shadowstep to the foe and pop 3 in melee range before dropping. It packs quite a punch. I wouldn’t camp, with rare exceptions like AC burrows.

1) Thief indeed had a trait that gave them a damage boost, but afaik that trait is gone.
Every class but the warrior is fine to pick up icebows, since warriors cant stack might while using icebow.

2) Icebow 4 is always a DPS boost, 3 is only a DPS boost in melee range and deepfreeze is a DPS boost if your elementalists are using tempest defense, or when you are able to disable certain mechanics that allows elementalists to finish their channels (meteor shower, glyph etc)

3) I usually freeze, 4 and then 3 (when in melee range) and drop it

bladex.9502:

1) Thief indeed had a trait that gave them a damage boost, but afaik that trait is gone.
Every class but the warrior is fine to pick up icebows, since warriors cant stack might while using icebow.

If said Warriors are running Fried Golden Dumplings it may be more beneficial for them to grab it due to each of the individual strikes potentially proc-ing a stack of might.

*Mileage varies based on the mob/boss you’re fighting though.

Shouldn’t touch the icebow if you run sinister.

1) Elementalist is the best, thief second. After that Warrior and Guardian are pretty good. Ranger and Engineer are a bit behind, but not by much. Mesmer can be as good as Warrior and Guardian, but for that the target need to be at 25 stack of vulnerability and the mesmer need to max out his mantra buff. Otherwise, he’s on par with Ranger and Engineer. But the difference is really small and in pug you should alway pick it up. Otherwise in most pug he will simply sit there.

2) It’s always a dps gain. The only guys that shouldn’t pick it up are Sinister build. I’m not sure if it’s a dps gain for them. Never tried to do the math on that, but I doubt it’s a good idea.

3) Skill 4 and skill 3 then you drop.

Thaddeus.4891:

Ranger and Engineer are a bit behind, but not by much.

Back when Thief still had Improvisation, it was better for a Ranger to pick up the Icebow if a boss was at 50%+ health, and they had Signet of the Wild off-cd. Thief lost Improv, but Ranger gained a ton of Precision…

1) thief/ele are best to pick up, after that is warrior slightly higher than guardian. The reason being that thief and ele have the most damage multipliers, followed by warrior then guard. (note this is a change from previous patches where it used to be guard over warrior. But since the specialization patch warrior is slightly better than guard).

2) as everyone else has said, unless you are sinister ice bow is ALWAYS a dps gain. If no one else in pug is picking it up go ahead and pick it up.

3) in most pugs/unorganized groups just use 4 → 3 then drop. In more organized groups a thief will remove defiant so you can get a second deep freeze off so you’ll want to hold on to it until then, and use skill 2 if needed to fill the gap. (note this also depends on the boss, as some bosses will die before the second deep freeze is needed).

1) Depends on situation and encounter, but for just highest dps with the icebow it’s Ele, Guardian, Thief, Ranger, Warrior, Mesmer, Engi, Necro. However Thief pulls ahead of Guardian once the enemy reaches 50% health. Also take into account icebow main strength is the insane burst damage, hence classes like mesmer is very strong with a icebow despite being 6th on the chart due to their lack of burst damage.

2) Usually is, not for condition builds though, I’d imagine.

3) 5 → 4 →3 if you’re the one freezing, 4 → 3 if someone else is. Icebow 2 isn’t really worth using unless you somehow are stuck in water attunement with fire attunement still on a 3 second cooldown or more.

Craig.2403:

In more organized groups a thief will remove defiant so you can get a second deep freeze off so you’ll want to hold on to it until then, and use skill 2 if needed to fill the gap. (note this also depends on the boss, as some bosses will die before the second deep freeze is needed).

Eh?
There’s only very few bosses where its actually needed to do double freeze (Mossman, Svanigandr, Ancient Ooze when there isn’t a mesmer).
Also, you don’t hold on to your icebow, you coordinate when the eles drop their icebow so the second ele drops it when the defiance is removed again after the first freeze.
Holding on to your icebow is a huge DPS waste, and there is no reason to do that in “organized groups”

FallenSentinel.6439:

Thaddeus.4891:

Ranger and Engineer are a bit behind, but not by much.

Back when Thief still had Improvisation, it was better for a Ranger to pick up the Icebow if a boss was at 50%+ health, and they had Signet of the Wild off-cd. Thief lost Improv, but Ranger gained a ton of Precision…

What? The difference in stats was close with the patch. There isn’t much difference in stats now except for specialization and skills. If you take the meta build here what you get between Thief and Ranger

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQNAoYVl8MhCnY1TwxJQ/EH0ElPL+ihYnnD3eqDgJMCA-TBBXgAA7PK/C1H0r+zjSwAAHA/23++bgzP/8zP/8+93f/93fHFQEB-e

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNAQNAsXTjEqQrKWxCmsAXLG2Dq92DgR/7gy9p5BOgHBA-TBBXgAA7PK/C1H0r+zjSwAAHA/23++bgzP/8zP/8+93f/93fHFQEB-e

Power : Thief 2900 vs Ranger 2727
Crit Chance : Thief 63% vs Ranger 56%
Crit Damage : Thief 239% vs Ranger 225%

Now what additional buff we can get for both that work with the icebow. I won’t count stuff that won’t proc while using Icebow at the start of the fight or stuff that both profession have like Scholar buff or Slaying potion, etc.

Thief
- +200 power when revealed work well
- +10% damage from exposed weakness
- I won’t count executionner since most of the time we use Icebow at the start of a fight, not the end.
- +5% Crit Chance from Keen Observer
- +7% Crit Dmg from Flawless Strike
- +10% Crit Dmg from Ferocious Strike since we use Icebow at the start of the fight
- +250 Ferocity from No Quarter
- +15% Damage from Lead Attacks

Ranger
- +10% Damage from Steady Focus
- +10% Dmg from Predator’s Onslaught
- +10% Crit Chance from Hunter’s tactics (Probably won’t procs, but I’ll give the ranger a chance)
- +25% Dmg from signet of the wild
- +7.5% Damage from Frost Spirit

So how a Ranger with less base stats and less buff from trait is gonna make more damage than Thief with Icebow? Ranger get an advantage in damage modifier, but thief got such an advantage in stats. Ranger isn’t as great in the precision department since the patch. But you are right that Ranger is better than I said. I completely forgot about Signet of the Wild for no reason. Ranger is actually between Thief and Guard/Warr.

it depends on the traits / builds that are with you, but in short:

thief/necro/ele with damage boosts under % enemy health.
anyone using engineer runes (bundle boost damage)
anyone with higher damage stats (zerk, assasins, etc)

necro edges out a bit due to life stealing. there is a little more damage always with this active.

thief edges out in the crowd more due to revealed buff and if they are flanking when using it. also, this is the only (current) class that will directly benefit from using another weapon (their initiative will recharge while using ice bow) (this will also be true for revenant)

mesmers should probably avoid it (no clones, hampers main class mechanic)
warriors are good for using skill 4 only, then going back to their main weapons. (they will do more damage)
guardians should avoid it (main weapons better suited for group support, someone else should do main burst damage)

skill rotation in organized groups:
-use skill 5 first to freeze a target clear of defiant stacks
-use skill 4 second to pile on damage
-use skill 3 up close to trigger multiple hits. very good at clearing trash mobs.
-use skill 2 to wait for skill 4 to recharge.
-use utility skills to fill any gaps. if you use skill 1 more than a few times you are losing dps and wasting charges.

Can almost never get pugs to reliably remove defiance stacks (and every kittening time they’re gone, someone cc while I’m dropping ice bow) so I’ll often use ice bow 5 as well to remove one in the hopes that next time I can freeze.

roachsrealm.9284:

thief edges out in the crowd more due to revealed buff and if they are flanking when using it
warriors are good for using skill 4 only, then going back to their main weapons. (they will do more damage)

skill rotation in organized groups:
-use skill 5 first to freeze a target clear of defiant stacks
-use skill 4 second to pile on damage
-use skill 3 up close to trigger multiple hits. very good at clearing trash mobs.
-use skill 2 to wait for skill 4 to recharge.
-use utility skills to fill any gaps. if you use skill 1 more than a few times you are losing dps and wasting charges.

I’m pretty sure the flanking doesn’t affect aoe skills, not sure about ground targetted impacts.(thieves/thief rune) Thieves also only have increased crit chance from flanking, but it interferes with the increased 7% crit dmg, and thieves already have plenty of crit chance when buffed, so the crit dmg is more useful, and less situational in groups(assuming you can keep a scholar buff).

Warriors can go 3→4 and drop the bow then use burst skill to get the 20% multiplier for the second half of ice storm.

After 4/3 in melee range, the bow should be dropped unless the target(s) is/are about to die and you need the bow in 20secs. Skill 2 is a filler if you interrupt deep freeze/ice storm by dodging or boss moving out of position.

Can some explain what ferocious strikes on thieves is supposed to be saying? It says it increases crit dmg against foes above 50%, but it shows a straight 10% multiplier. Anyone know which it is actually is doing?

SlyDevil.3952:

I’m pretty sure the flanking doesn’t affect aoe skills, not sure about ground targetted impacts.(thieves/thief rune) Thieves also only have increased crit chance from flanking, but it interferes with the increased 7% crit dmg, and thieves already have plenty of crit chance when buffed, so the crit dmg is more useful, and less situational in groups(assuming you can keep a scholar buff).

Warriors can go 3->4 and drop the bow then use burst skill to get the 20% multiplier for the second half of ice storm.

After 4/3 in melee range, the bow should be dropped unless the target(s) is/are about to die and you need the bow in 20secs. Skill 2 is a filler if you interrupt deep freeze/ice storm by dodging or boss moving out of position.

Can some explain what ferocious strikes on thieves is supposed to be saying? It says it increases crit dmg against foes above 50%, but it shows a straight 10% multiplier. Anyone know which it is actually is doing?

Any attack that strikes an opponent outside of their ‘frontal cone’ is considered flanking. This also applies to AoE attacks that strike simultaneously within and outside of the target’s frontal cone.

Bow should be dropped once its burst skills have been used up. Camping in the bow until 20s have passed for another burst is a terrible loss in damage output.

Ferocious Strikes is misleading. The traits adds a flat 10% damage mod to your base damage.

bladex.9502:

Craig.2403:

In more organized groups a thief will remove defiant so you can get a second deep freeze off so you’ll want to hold on to it until then, and use skill 2 if needed to fill the gap. (note this also depends on the boss, as some bosses will die before the second deep freeze is needed).

Eh?
There’s only very few bosses where its actually needed to do double freeze (Mossman, Svanigandr, Ancient Ooze when there isn’t a mesmer).
Also, you don’t hold on to your icebow, you coordinate when the eles drop their icebow so the second ele drops it when the defiance is removed again after the first freeze.
Holding on to your icebow is a huge DPS waste, and there is no reason to do that in “organized groups”

first ele will drop ice bow before fight starts and immediately deep freeze on boss spawn/as fight starts. Thief immediately removes defiant and either picks up second ice bow or whoever picked up the second ice bow freezes. This is used on pretty much every boss as it takes the thief the duration of the cast of ice bow 4 to remove all 5 defiant stacks. So if you picked up ice bow and a thief is in the party hold onto the ice bow if it takes thief a bit longer to remove last defiant stack so you can get a second freeze off.

Craig.2403:

first ele will drop ice bow before fight starts and immediately deep freeze on boss spawn/as fight starts. Thief immediately removes defiant and either picks up second ice bow or whoever picked up the second ice bow freezes. This is used on pretty much every boss as it takes the thief the duration of the cast of ice bow 4 to remove all 5 defiant stacks. So if you picked up ice bow and a thief is in the party hold onto the ice bow if it takes thief a bit longer to remove last defiant stack so you can get a second freeze off.

His points what not that it’s impossible or difficult to do. His point that that it’s useless. Deep Freeze is just not worth using twice in a row unless you want to keep the boss from moving and attacking. There is a very limited amount of bosses like this. Most of them are better to burst them at first, then to drop the icebow and do the normal fight. Double Deep Freeze is a defensive tactics.

Craig.2403:

bladex.9502:

Craig.2403:

In more organized groups a thief will remove defiant so you can get a second deep freeze off so you’ll want to hold on to it until then, and use skill 2 if needed to fill the gap. (note this also depends on the boss, as some bosses will die before the second deep freeze is needed).

Eh?
There’s only very few bosses where its actually needed to do double freeze (Mossman, Svanigandr, Ancient Ooze when there isn’t a mesmer).
Also, you don’t hold on to your icebow, you coordinate when the eles drop their icebow so the second ele drops it when the defiance is removed again after the first freeze.
Holding on to your icebow is a huge DPS waste, and there is no reason to do that in “organized groups”

first ele will drop ice bow before fight starts and immediately deep freeze on boss spawn/as fight starts. Thief immediately removes defiant and either picks up second ice bow or whoever picked up the second ice bow freezes. This is used on pretty much every boss as it takes the thief the duration of the cast of ice bow 4 to remove all 5 defiant stacks. So if you picked up ice bow and a thief is in the party hold onto the ice bow if it takes thief a bit longer to remove last defiant stack so you can get a second freeze off.

Dropping an icebow before the fight even starts is a huge DPS waste.
For an optimal rotation the 1st ele starts in fire, uses meteor shower, swaps to water, uses icebow, swaps to air and uses glyph of storms and back to fire.
Second ele starts in air, uses glyph of storms, swaps to water, uses icebow, swaps to fire and finishes rotation.

If you drop an icebow before the fight even starts you’re wasting the 10% water damage boost.
Only fights where this is necessary are, like Thaddeus said, bosses that you want to keep in 1 place because otherwise they move out of AoE’s.

On top of this comes that if you want to remove 5 defiance stacks in the 5s period of a deepfreeze, you need to camp pistol offhand for every boss, and that’s a huge DPS loss for the thief.

Like I said, in a truly optimized group where you actually communicate, elementalists use different rotations from eachother to maximize DPS output.
Holding icebows is only necessary if you want to heal your team with the autoattack :’)

for optimal burst you should be starting in earth/air. Fire and water should be the last attunements you swap to.

So earth > eruption> air > glyph > fire > lava font > meteor shower > water > icebow

You can add an ice spike in before the icebow if you want.