Guild Wars 2

One thing i believe makes no sense in GuildWars2 is that you can die as much as you want, and still will suceed. You just have to runback and do right or wrong, whatever. Even if you fail, you’ll succeed no matter what.

Pull boss
-> die
runback
-> die
runback
-> fail again
runback
-> die again
come back
… and oh, after 50 billion HP, the boss is almost dead, nice.

-> succeed.

So basically, you can start an encounter, fail, fail , die, fail, fail, and still, you will succeed.

isn’t is stupid ?

There’s pretty much no reason to be happy when you complete a dungeon in gw2 : /

You can be happy if you succeed the first time =D (i.e. without wiping/dying)

Kill simin with this strategy.
I’ll wait

Hell kill any boss that can heal themselves, with this strategy.

Kill any boss who wipes your whole party, with this strategy.

Hell, most bosses in Arah lock you out of the room if you die (jotun final boss, alphard, ETC)

There are plenty of bosses that this strategy will never work on.

and at the end of the day this strategy relies upon at least 1 player surviving until the others get back. This isnt always feasible for groups. And TBH in the cases that it is, those singular players are usually living enough to the point where they deserve the win anyway. If someone survives for the full 15 minute fight, do they not deserve the win because their teammates all died 4 times apiece? Should good players not be able to carry the bad ones?

I mean, are you also dying? If so I might suggest perhaps revisiting your gear and/or strategy. I feel like if you were the person who survives for the full fight, you wouldnt consider it stupid that you can carry your team. Because you would most likely feel like you deserved the win.

I’m not dying a lot, i’m actually often the one person who survives in the room, my gear is fine (full exotics from TA, AC, CoF),i actually find gw2’s dungeons boring : / and i believe that the game being too forgiving for death may be one reason why.

It kinda contributes to kill the “tension” of the encounter, and the excitement of the victory imo. I don’t know how ANet could implement any “more elaborate” mechanics or strategies involving the 5 players of a party if anyone can die as much as they want.

Hughs.6549:

I’m not dying a lot, i’m actually often the one person who survives in the room, my gear is fine (full exotics from TA, AC, CoF),i actually find gw2’s dungeons boring : / and i believe that the game being too forgiving for death may be one reason why.

It kinda contributes to kill the “tension” of the encounter, and the excitement of the victory imo.

Have you done Arah? Try jotun path or seer path. See how forgiving those fights are (spoilers: not very ;p )

You receive a downed penalty and have to pay for armor repairs (which get REALLY expensive, by the way). How is this not significant enough punishment? What would you recommend?

I’m happy when I complete a dungeon because I get tokens and a decent bit of Silver. I always have this happy sigh of relief once the dungeon is done.

I have to agree with the OP here. The game is really forgiving for playing badly. And I believe it also have a bad influence on the game community. You can “die” several time during a single fight because the game gives you the down state. Since there’s no limit of time on most boss encounter, even the worst group can beat a boss as long a they rez each other and let the penalty goes off (only 1min). If the down state isn’t enough, the game gives the opportunity to come back (sometimes very quickly) as long as at least one player know how to do a proper kitting. At some point, dying and coming back would feel like part of the boss design.

I’ve been playing explo dungeons for few weeks with random people, good and bad players, and never failed to clean a dungeon. Good players don’t see any problem since they don’t “die”. My main concern is that the bad players don’t see any either since they’ve beaten the dungeon. In their experience the dungeon was just “hard” (which is not imo). They are not going to ask for builds, nor guides, nor strategies. They are just going to complain on the forum about some boss abilities they’ve found overpowered. Hey, they are good enough to beat hardcore dungeons (which they aren’t), if they pay too much repair fee (which is fine), it’s because it’s poorly designed not because they die too much!

I believe players should experience a real “game over” at some point, either being locked outside a boss room or not being allowed to respawn since the boss is in combat and wait for a rez, NPC style. So the game would force them to step back, take a look at how their teammates play, dodge and support each other, make a strategy, rethink their build, read guides, etc. This is a multiplayer game, playing together and building a community is part of the game. For a solo RPG experience, there’s Skyrim.

PS: The fact that a part of the game is not impacted by the topic doesn’t convince me that the topic is fine/cannot be improved.

I agree with zutroy, i’ve played mostly with pugs, sometimes good, sometimes awful teamates but still, always succeeded. No i’m not a super hero or anything : p, the game is just extremely forgiving (paying repairs has nothing to do with the gameplay btw). You basically only need to keep one person alive kiting the whole thing and the others can die as much as they want and yay ! Get your crappy blue/green chests : D

Arah is one dungeon, only one small part of the game, the whole game is considered as “end game” by ANet. Arah being harder doesn’t make these mechanics good everywhere. (TA, CoF, SE, AC ………………………………………..) I see it as the exception that proves the rule.

Permadeath, now. Die once, buy a new copy of the game.

Hughs.6549:

but still, always succeeded. No i’m not a super hero or anything : p, the game is just extremely forgiving (paying repairs has nothing to do with the gameplay btw). You basically only need to keep one person alive kiting the whole thing and the others can die as much as they want and yay ! Get your crappy blue/green chests

This is a game. It’s supposed to be fun (though I agree the current dungeons frequently fail at that). Do you think your enjoyment of the game would be increased if, instead of being able to run back and finish off the boss (thanks to the fact that at least one player in your group was able to stay alive), you had to keep restarting the same fight over and over?

How would that make the game more fun, exactly?

And, if you do think that makes it more fun, then all you need to do is kill yourself (assuming you’re that one player who managed to stay alive) and let the boss reset.

Account.9832

This is a game. It’s supposed to be fun

I think challenge is fun. It brings this rewarding feeling of accomplishment that is nonexistant in gw2. So yeah, dungeons would probably be a little more exciting.

Account.9832

Do you think your enjoyment of the game would be increased if, instead of being able to run back and finish off the boss (thanks to the fact that at least one player in your group was able to stay alive), you had to keep restarting the same fight over and over?
How would that make the game more fun, exactly?

At least it would force us to play together as a group, instead of (almost) every encounters being a mindless deathmatch.

Account.9832

And, if you do think that makes it more fun, then all you need to do is kill yourself (assuming you’re that one player who managed to stay alive) and let the boss reset.

Bad troll mate :x

Hugh’s your philosophy works good in other games, but in a game that the group is only 5 players large, and there are so many 1 shot abilities (in a row not just ones you wait for a wind up and dodge.) bosses bag spam condition more than anyone can possibly have condition removals, parts of dungeons like cm explore butler path with 20 mkn pulls (half of them are elite and bombers that kb you, it just isn’t feasible here.

The dungeons would have to be alternately tuned to that style of play that of you die oh cant come back in. Bosses like gigantic lupicus with homing auto attacks that kill you in two hits (play a necro high hp, with lots of toughness and damage) not only that but the aggro mechanic isn’t reliably predicted, (I’ve had bosses lock on to me and not let to, like lupicus, spam multiple homing auto attacks on me then 2 shadow steps in a row to me…. I don’t have that many dodges!? Lol). They would have to be changed.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

This is a particular problem in dungeons, but not as great as you might think. We allow you the option to change your tactics, try new things, learn new skills, and work through things to your hearts content. I personally like that philosophy.
That being said, you can spend a lot of coin to learn lessons (in the form of repairs), but that is all on you.

I agree, being able to learn skills, to change traits inside dungeons is awesome. I love building strategies in RPG and the limited skills system combined with this ability add an exiting layer of complexity to the game. But pardon me if didn’t quite catch the idea, I don’t understand how it’s related to the fact that we can die during a boss fight, respawn and catch up where we failed. I sometimes adapt my strategy during a fight by running to the previous room, get out of combat and change my utilities without killing myself.

Of course, it’s not big problem. But since Anet wants to build the best game they can possibly make, it’s worth considering if a change would make it better or not, i.e. more fun. To summarize what’ve been previously said, retrain the respawn/runing back system during bosses may:

• Gives a better feel of accomplishment. Killing the boss without being defeated means that your group have mastered its mechanics. Atm, the feel is diminished by other people being able to kill the boss without having a clue of those mechanics Anet designers have designed.
• Bring back the “game over” experience that exists since the creation of video games. Can you imagine beating a Mario game where it put you back just in front of the hole/monster that killed you? The checkpoint system is fine, but don’t abuse it. When Mario is not good enough, he restart the stage. When the group is not good enough, the group should restart the stage.
• Get people to step back so they can observe, gather, communicate, build a strategy, etc. Atm, the game don’t encourage people to do that. Most of the time, five people run into the boss and see what’s happen. If they’re lucky it goes well. If they’re less lucky, one will die. Since the other four are busy, one will come back quietly. If there’re unlucky they’ll all die. If the boss was low enough, they’ll just try again, their strategy (rush in & see) wasn’t that bad. Otherwise, maybe they’ll considered a strategy (or ask for a nerf on the forum). So far, I’ve seems lots of such behaviour, day after day. Very few take a look at how each monster behaves in dungeon.
• The down time is valuable We can see how it is important in other games, what you can learn a lot when defeated. In FPS, you’re given a global view of your mates: a better view of your strategy and how it fits with the opponents’. In WoW, it was perfect time to check what killed you, what is killing you team, read the buff/debuffs, the boss cast-times and cooldowns,… and player needed that since the dungeon designs were so rich. Discover, learn and build a strong strategy is part of the fun.

BlueprintLFE.2358:

Hugh’s your philosophy works good in other games, but in a game that the group is only 5 players large, and there are so many 1 shot abilities (in a row not just ones you wait for a wind up and dodge.) bosses bag spam condition more than anyone can possibly have condition removals, parts of dungeons like cm explore butler path with 20 mkn pulls (half of them are elite and bombers that kb you, it just isn’t feasible here.

The dungeons would have to be alternately tuned to that style of play that of you die oh cant come back in. Bosses like gigantic lupicus with homing auto attacks that kill you in two hits (play a necro high hp, with lots of toughness and damage) not only that but the aggro mechanic isn’t reliably predicted, (I’ve had bosses lock on to me and not let to, like lupicus, spam multiple homing auto attacks on me then 2 shadow steps in a row to me…. I don’t have that many dodges!? Lol). They would have to be changed.

So, you’re saying that in your opinion dying, coming back fresh as new and continue is intended as part of the design of those fights? Basically, dying is kinda of healing spell since it’s not feasible to survive every boss abilities anyway, then. That raise another problem. Getting players to go kamikaze isn’t a proper design imo. If many players feel that way, it’s also weird.

That aside, I can think of different games with 5 man party that are not really forgiving and still considered as very fun and very good games. But I get you point. A part of the community find the explorable dungeon to hard while another part find them to easy.

For the first, the respawn/running back change would make dungeons even harder if the bosses aren’t adapted accordingly. They’d left with storymode dungeons which aren’t enough nor appealing at the moment. The second part are most probably experienced MMO players that already know to react, adapt and build strategies around that kind of content. They’d pleased that end-game dungeons are meaningful and reflect their skill and experience.

Both represent big market consumers for Anet, what should they do? Maybe smooth the learning curve so players know the game better entering exp dungeons? Maybe create more exp mode but harder, like “master explorable mode” ? Maybe tune the existing paths so one would harder ? All that is a bit off topic. Even if the OP idea don’t fit the game at it’s current state, do you think be benefit in long term?

Hughs.6549:

At least it would force us to play together as a group

“At least” doesn’t answer my question: Would you find the game more enjoyable if, instead of picking up fights where you left them (thanks to your teammates’ ability to stay alive), you were forced to always repeat those fights from the start if you died?

Hughs.6549:

Account.9832

And, if you do think that makes it more fun, then all you need to do is kill yourself (assuming you’re that one player who managed to stay alive) and let the boss reset.

Bad troll mate :x

It’s not a “troll” at all; it’s a perfectly factual statement. If you prefer to restart the fight completely, you can do so. In some fights I do exactly that (because it’s faster than “recovering” from a mistake, even if we are able to keep the fight going).

In other words, the game already gives us that option.

What you are saying is that everybody else should be forced to make the same choice you make (and, to be honest, I doubt you actually restart every fight where some party members die).

Zutroy.9105:

So, you’re saying that in your opinion dying, coming back fresh as new and continue is intended as part of the design of those fights?

Clearly, it is. If it wasn’t, Arena Net wouldn’t allow players to respawn during boss fights, or would make the boss area inaccessible to those players.

The mechanisms GW2 uses to penalize WP revivng are the time it takes to run back and the downed penalty. It’s up to players to decide if it’s preferable to wait to be revived, revive at a waypoint and run straight back into the fight, or revive at a waypoint and wait for the penalty to drop off before going back into combat.

That is frankly a much more interesting tactical choice than “if you die, you have to restart” (a choice which is also available to dungeon parties).

Personally I don’t mind the current way dungeons are done. I didn’t like the Guild Wars 1 system where the whole party got kicked from the instance upon a party wipe, it’s just a massive time sink. A bad motivator for a lot of people to get back to dungeons, because they know they’ll likely waste their time if the party gets wiped again.

Now if the party fails to kill a boss they’ll pay with it with repair costs. That’s it. It allows the party to continue playing, and zerg down a boss. If that’s what they call a success, that’s good for them. A good team will do it way faster and without repair costs, that’s the reward for playing well, and in my opinion that’s good.

If they’d make dungeons like the old Guild Wars 1 instances, barely anyone would run them anymore. How do I know? Just look at Guild Wars 1 where the only people running them are cookie-cutters and speedclearers. People are so afraid to try anything different in the elite instances, because all of their time is wasted if they mess up once in them.
The Guild Wars 2 dungeon design allows people to try different things, to experiment, and still reward people for it at the end.

I like it. It makes encounters that would otherwise just be mobs 1 shot each person in the group and thus a wipe into a difficult chore where you have to run back before the last person drops instead. Hooray for no more tanking and healing holy trinity – that was so much less fun than being one-shotted randomly without warning! Not.

How about, if you don’t want the option to ress at the waypoint all the time, make your group not to do it. If you die, either wait for a ress, wipe or boss’ death.

Oh yeah, don’t complain about pugs, find a guild.

Better idea, make dungeons Hard Core Mode (bold since it looks trendy in this thread) so if you die you are really dead.

How about… if there’s an off-chance they would tweak/remove the waypoint ressing in dungeons, maybe they should nerf/remove the “one-shot unavoidable boss abilities” too.

Milennin.4825:

Now if the party fails to kill a boss they’ll pay with it with repair costs. That’s it. It allows the party to continue playing, and zerg down a boss. If that’s what they call a success, that’s good for them. A good team will do it way faster and without repair costs, that’s the reward for playing well, and in my opinion that’s good..

Thanks for you opinion. Well, the matter is more on the parties succeed to kill the boss without understanding it. They don’t enjoy is at it fullest because they did not understand the boss design, they think that dying is part of the intended strategies, they are disappointed of the repair system, they think some abilities are unavoidable (lack of understanding the boss mechanics, remember? I haven’t yet seen any and have done most of the exp paths), and the only thing standing between good and bad players is some silver coins. My opinion is that dungeon designs are overlooked by too many players and good players feels poorly rewarded for understanding those, build strategies and play as a group. This is one of the reasons why the those ask for more chanlenging/end-game dungeons.

Bringing a Hard Core Mode not forgiving defeated state so much would be good (but name it differently for the sake of all the GW fanboys/WoW hater out there) and/or forgiving taking a 1-shoot ability instead of forgiving death, by making it 80% health, for exemple. Though stacking vitality do the trick too in most cases.

Account.9832:

Would you find the game more enjoyable if, instead of picking up fights where you left them (thanks to your teammates’ ability to stay alive), you were forced to always repeat those fights from the start if you died?

You don’t get the point, dude. And again, mention a specific situation as a proof. When one member of the group dies, the whole party isn’t force to die, ever, in any game. Would you find the game more enjoyable if, when failing a difficult content, the game encourage you to build strategies? Certainly. Would you find the game more enjoyable if you are close to useless and only one member of the party carry the game? Oh wait, it’s possible.

Account.9832:

What you are saying is that everybody else should be forced to make the same choice you make (and, to be honest, I doubt you actually restart every fight where some party members die).

Every time I kill a boss with every member of the party dying at least once, it feels like a cheap victory. When I’m the only one not dying, I could ask the team not to rez to keep the victory clean, but they’d rez anyway for their fast tokens. Why do people want cheap victory? Why do people run past half the content of dungeons? Why do people afk/leech in PvP? Why do people tag on event for karma/exp reward and go away? Because they can.

I don’t understand. OP is talking about graveyard rushing easy encounters?

There are encounters in Arah with anti-GY rush mechanics, people who go back to waypoint find a wall blocking their way in. This could be implemented more but I really don’t understand the frustration.

I’m all for more difficult content and I’m sure more will come in time but if your group is constantly dieing I don’t think the problem is the encounter even if you still beat it (that just means the people dieing constantly were being carried).

Strive for less deaths and finishing an encounter faster.

I also want to note that I don’t find repair costs to make an impact, maybe I just don’t die much.

Imo, the dungeon system needs additional layers:

“Duo/Trio” Mode: Obviously allows 2 players to experience the dungeon, but the mobs and rewards are scaled down accordingly.

“Normal” Story and Exploration Modes: As they are now.

“Hard” Story and Exploration Modes. More Challenge (inc. lock outs for all boss fights if you have to respawn at a Waypoint). Rewards obviously scaled accordingly.

Zutroy.9105:

Milennin.4825:

Now if the party fails to kill a boss they’ll pay with it with repair costs. That’s it. It allows the party to continue playing, and zerg down a boss. If that’s what they call a success, that’s good for them. A good team will do it way faster and without repair costs, that’s the reward for playing well, and in my opinion that’s good..

Thanks for you opinion. Well, the matter is more on the parties succeed to kill the boss without understanding it. They don’t enjoy is at it fullest because they did not understand the boss design, they think that dying is part of the intended strategies, they are disappointed of the repair system, they think some abilities are unavoidable (lack of understanding the boss mechanics, remember? I haven’t yet seen any and have done most of the exp paths), and the only thing standing between good and bad players is some silver coins. My opinion is that dungeon designs are overlooked by too many players and good players feels poorly rewarded for understanding those, build strategies and play as a group. This is one of the reasons why the those ask for more chanlenging/end-game dungeons.

While that’s true, the enjoyment for them comes once they figure out the actual boss mechanics and learn to kill it like a pro. I used to think it was ok to finish a dungeon even with a lot of deaths, but since then I have been enjoying finding out ways to get me through without dying (as much).
In my opinion that’s reward enough. Sure, harder bosses would be nice, but none of the bosses would actually be really harder without the ability to graverush them. It’d just make them more tedious and frustrating, because most boss fights are way too shallow. Hacking on a beast using the same attack over again for 10 minutes, and then get kicked out of an instance because of a simple mess-up (even for something as simple like a disconnect…) wouldn’t be fun, nor would it make the dungeon harder.

Harder content is good, as long as it brings interesting boss mechanics with it, that put player skill to the test. Giganticus is a good example, because he actually has several different phases with different attacks and mechanics going on. And even though your party can return to the fight, it isn’t a very short run (depending on the path), it’s still easy for an unorganised party to wipe during that time.

if you’re graveyard rushing, chances are you’ll spend more money on repairs than you’ll ever hope to earn on the dungeon run.

Yeah, the disconnect system is really a pain. It’s not a reason not to change the respawn thing, but a reason to change the disconnect thing. Sure, the change wouldn’t make the dungeons harder (at least for people who don’t die on every encounter), they would just feel harder.

I’d love seeing more interesting mechanics too, and more synergy between specs too. But since the learning curve of the game is so harsh between the open world and dungeons, the game needs to encourage players to play properly before throwing complex stuff at them. I really can’t see Anet throwing a 3 phases boss with target switching, heals to interrupt coordinated placement right now. At the moment, the average level of players is too low to handle that. Not players that goes on forums like us and build strategies, the average one that don’t and don’t need to.

Zutroy.9105:

Yeah, the disconnect system is really a pain. It’s not a reason not to change the respawn thing, but a reason to change the disconnect thing. Sure, the change wouldn’t make the dungeons harder (at least for people who don’t die on every encounter), they would just feel harder.

This is the thing. If you’re in a decent party, it won’t make much of a difference. However, a lot of people are PUG’ing these. Yeah, I like PUGs, and my 2 guilds are afraid of the harder/longer paths in dungeons, so I’m forced to PUG if I wanna do these…
And in a PUG it would make a difference. It would pretty much kill PUG’ing because in a lot of the instances you’ll have some idiot (including myself, sometimes) mess up things for you, or something. I don’t care if you hate PUG’ing, but for many people it’s the only way they’re going to see these dungeons.
The current way dungeons work is PUG-friendly, while also offering something for the organised group.

The lack of challenge doesn’t come from the ability to graverush dungeons, but due to the lack of interesting dungeon / boss mechanics.

Milennin.4825:

The lack of challenge doesn’t come from the ability to graverush dungeons, but due to the lack of interesting dungeon / boss mechanics.

That’s what i’m saying since the beginning. And I think that making the dungeons less pug friendly will raise the interest and visibility of those mechanics for those people. They’ll enjoy the game better by understanding the game, Anet will be able to introduce more complex mechanics without whine-fest, good players will feel like they aren’t the only ones who cares.

Well, I pugged an Arah the other day and the strategy for Giganticus Lupicus was, no joke, to pull him to the WP, take off all our gear and throw ourselves at him again and again. I’m not sure which is funnier, the fact that this is probably a standard pug strat, or that it works.

I think the dungeon experience would be more exciting and satisfying if players could not respawn and return mid-fight. I’m not talking about “graveyard rushing”, just the fact that defeated players can return to the fight. In my opinion, this should not be possible, especially in explorable mode.

Although if that change was implemented, it would become even more necessary to lower a number of boss HP pools which are currently slightly too high.

It seems to be that the scaling of dungeons is way out of balance. In some places you have trash mobs of 6 elites 3+ higher than the player level to be dealt with by 5 players, and yet you have a boss fight that’s nothing more than “avoid circles” & DPS. There are fights where there’s 2:1 ratio of elites to players, and the only strategy that seems to work is die and hope at least 1 person stays alive until the NPC timer goes off.

Without the “standard trinity”, it seems to me that with the current balance of mobs/bosses/etc, that dying over and over is the ONLY acceptable strategy.

NB: for those that talk about gear checks, etc. When you have access to a dungeon at lvl 40, you should be able to complete it with the skills/traits/gear you would normally have at that level. A players shouldn’t be required to be max level and geared in full rares to be able to successfully complete a lvl 40 or 50 dungeon.

I hate corpse running. I hate paying repair costs. If my group is using a strategy which involves wiping or just dieing over and over, I want nothing to do with it. I don’t need more incentive to succeed at encounters, I currently have enough.

I did Giganticus Lupicus the other day and was interested to see how tough it was. I died five times (the most I have ever died in a dungeon encounter). The thief in our group was naked (I think it was his first dungeon) and the others all died a little more than me. I could understand dieing because you got caught in a red circle or because you didn’t strafe well enough, but getting killed because of bad luck sucked, it seems this encounter has an element of that (although endurance food/runes/sigils/builds would dramatically alter this I suspect). Without the waypoint strategy my group wouldn’t have beaten this fight. At the end of it, most of us were able to stay up during most of the attacks, but a couple times there was some bad luck or poor positioning which caused a few deaths, with a long run back (or no ability to run back at all). Phase two is the only hard part of this fight (because of the cheap vomit/green ball skill which is difficult to avoid without a lot of dodge or very experienced timing), phase three you can die but it’s really not that bad. We probably would have failed due to the remaining ones being up but unable to deal with the pressure of being the only ones alive. This is one of those encounters where the ability to continue on using the waypoint strategy is the only way many people are going to gain experience and get better at it. The more players complete it (using the current method) the better they will learn the warnings, the positioning, the timings etc of the attacks. They will die less and less and may one day eventually be able to take it on in it’s room.

If you take the unforgiving approach and make it so deaths result in long walk backs and players unable to stay up for the whole fight result in a boss reset, you will create a barrier with this content and most players will stop playing it. It doesn’t act as more incentive to stay alive and not corpse run the boss (players already have incentive to do that, I know I don’t need more), it creates a gap between people able to complete it in one shot and those who can’t, so they don’t, don’t get the practice and don’t go any further or get any better. Currently the good players can do it without being downed, they can work together, dodge, revive etc and beat this content without paying huge res fees or excessively long fights because people did more dieing than they did fighting. Those people are already rewarded by the experience and no punishments. Everyone else deals with repair costs, frustrating deaths and probably even boss resets, but they are able to progress and get better.

my friend tried the first two dungeons (from others he heard that those are the most interesting) and was disappointed of the boss mechanics. They aren’t interesting he says.

…well I think they are, but it depends: I played it with some guys who knew how to play and it looked quite interesting. Then I ran the same dungeon with other people (who were there for the first time) and we died… but we simply ran back and continued the fight. We found ourselves ignoring the mechanics because it didn’t matter anyway.

the first experience was great
the second (in the same dungeon): not so much

I wished there was no graveyard-rushing…

If we’re supposed to be able to “try different things/tactics” then why aren’t there skill reset npcs in the dungeons as well?

Yasashiku.8275:

If we’re supposed to be able to “try different things/tactics” then why aren’t there skill reset npcs in the dungeons as well?

Because you can change your skills anytime outside combat…

While I do support adding anti-rush walls to some encounters, several bosses would become incredibly frustrating. As long as there are random-targeted unavoidable abilities, weird aggro-locks or instakill abilities, some encounters would become much more luck based. And honestly, how many of you have not died while ressing someone else…

Are you seriously asking this question, OP?? It’s bad, of course. Really bad, horrible, awful.

What some people need to realize it is ok to get downed. That’s how it is designed.
Your party needs to have utility to get downed people back.
I bring Endure Pain against Lupicus for two reasons: saves me if I screw up and most importantly, allows me to revive someone even when being targeted.
I also carry Elite banner all the time.

Of course in some pug teams you can just go make a sandwich whenever you get downed because you know they won’t help you up (like that guild group which prioritized reviving defeated guildies instead of downed people),

Hughs.6549, you lost me when you said that grave rushing allows people to not learn the mechanics then immediately said that the dungeons weren’t complex enough. Ignoring what I know about the dungeons, I think to myself “What does Hughs want people to learn if there’s nothing there?”

Now I will agree with you that this death rushing is just bad. Those are with the people that just do it from the start: rush in, die, rush back, repeat. No attempt to actually try. Then there are the times that I’ve done it. That’s when you’ve failed so many times and have been there for ever so long, you just want it done. Since reward is all at the end, no one wants to just say “we can’t do this” and leave after investing so much time.

The real problem lies in that the game never teaches you anything about group play and how to deal with tactics. I only learned about combos because I got curious about the information on the tooltip and looked it up out outside of the game. World “Group Events” are all just rush fests with people barely seeing past “must do max damage to that boss!” Way too many times have I seen the Grenth Priest fight explained that you actually have to have people taking out shades to keep the Priest form one-shotting the NPC.

Side note: I find it even funnier that people automatically try to death rush in dungeons because they can, yet come out to take Balthazar and everyone is laying around dead waiting for res.

One word. Achievement

add an achievement called “Hardcore Dungeon Master” where you have to defeat every dungeon and every path without a party death, you get a title. Then make the title alter you name so instead of “Arrogoth” its “Arrogoth the Hardcore” or something that really stands out like legendary weapons…OMG EVEN BETTER give them “Hardcore gifts of the Dungeon Master” or something that you can make a baddass weapon. There are so many things you could do.

Arrogoth.7085:

One word. Achievement

add an achievement called “Hardcore Dungeon Master” where you have to defeat every dungeon and every path without a party death, you get a title. Then make the title alter you name so instead of “Arrogoth” its “Arrogoth the Hardcore” or something that really stands out like legendary weapons…OMG EVEN BETTER give them “Hardcore gifts of the Dungeon Master” or something that you can make a baddass weapon. There are so many things you could do.

That would be great. Having people drop out of dungeon parties because they died once and want the achievement. These kind of people are also the ones to always curse and swear and blame everyone else in the party for their own mistakes… That’s just what we need more of in this game.

I totally agree. The ability to just run back in the middle of a fight is my only major issue with the game. It completly removes the feeling of acomplishment and rewards/armor you buy with tokens are just as “valuable” as white 2 silver items from vendors. Also, this design doesnt make you improve your gameplay, try different things, change strategies cause it works whatever you do and thats bad imo. People that were dying at bosses before, still do. People already respond “you are supposed to be dying at bosses”. To me, all this just doesnt make sense, especially cause MOST of the bosses arent really hard, adding way to come back after dying just makes dungeons a joke.

For example, my small guild is having problems with that lupicus in arah, we tried few times and failed. And thats not bad at all. We have some guild goal we work on and once we beat it it will be “Hurray!” moment. If we killed it on first try (which we would if there was a wp nearby) would mean nothing.

Milennin.4825

Because you can change your skills anytime outside combat…

What I meant were traits. Sorry for the poor wording.

With every dungeon being terrible designed no one would play the game if you weren’t allowed to try again.

what exactly constitutes a terrible dungeon design? are you a game developer can you explain this?

They could always remove some of the WPs within each dungeon so that by the time you spawn and run back the mobs would be regenerated I suppose that would make sense. What exactly is the alternative here? Die and start the dungeon over completely?

They might as well remove them. TA explore doesn’t have any and that is one that desperately needs it due to a mass amount of killer flowers.

One shot kill mechanics are bad design in any game. They are a gimmick that is used to hide bad programming and initial design. There are snipers in CM that can one shot you from a tower, guess what is in the way? If I remember correctly it’s 12 mobs. You can’t keep smoke screen or wall of reflection up long enough. Keep in mind this is suppose to be done at level 40! You can get 1 shot by them even at level 80. It’s ridiculous.

Being CC’d to death is a another problem not only in CM but TA, CoF and so forth. Used to stop people from trying to run past mobs when simply putting up a barrier that is destroyed/removed when the trash is killed would of sufficed instead of being unable to move your character. No amount of skill is going to save you from being chain CC’d. Granted there are skills that can get you out, anything with stability or a thief’s blinding powder for example. However you can’t keep it up the whole fight since even trash have a tonne of HP.

Lastly some events are totally ridiculous. I will go back to CoF just because it is ran frequently by the masses. The torch event in path 3 is like pulling teeth. It’s literally the first thing you have to do in the path. Why would torches go out after 5 seconds with respawning mobs? The Magg bomb event has been discussed to death.

To summarize my argument, cheap gimmicks combined with ridiculous events make the dungeons frustrating rather than challenging and fun like they should be.

Robert Hrouda.1327:

This is a particular problem in dungeons, but not as great as you might think. We allow you the option to change your tactics, try new things, learn new skills, and work through things to your hearts content. I personally like that philosophy.
That being said, you can spend a lot of coin to learn lessons (in the form of repairs), but that is all on you.

But is it fun?

Please focus on actually making dungeons fun. GW1 dungeons were absolutely perfection and a lot of fun. When a dungeon is fun they do not need massive rewards and the likes, that is what we call treating the symptoms. Why the GW2 dungeons turned out to be such a disaster is beyond me but the issues are very clear. The only thing that is stopping them from being fixed is sheer arrogance.