Guild Wars 2

I know there is specific information regarding what a 3rd party program is allowed to do and not do; but since I’m not entirely sure of how these different programs operate I don’t know if they break these rules or not.
Is there an official list of for instance DPS Meters that are allowed to use or will I just have to install one and “hope for the best”? :|

More specifically, would BGDM be allowed?

BGDM has already been made to comply with Anets statements. No question on that.

As for add ons, pretty much anything outside of showing combat data, this means dps, buff times, uptime, etc, while anything else like showing someones traits (that includes checking armor), is against their policy and subject to a ban.

GW2 Helper
BGDM
Arcdps

Those are the only 3 i know of that comply with their standards. There are other used ones that show gear and guide movement(with icons), but they are a grey area, so i’d avoid the risk.

Najten.2418:

I know there is specific information regarding what a 3rd party program is allowed to do and not do; but since I’m not entirely sure of how these different programs operate I don’t know if they break these rules or not.
Is there an official list of for instance DPS Meters that are allowed to use or will I just have to install one and “hope for the best”? :|

More specifically, would BGDM be allowed?

It’s… tricky. By Anet statement dps check is allowed if it’s for your group or squad. BGDM has a slightly different selection method. On one hand that method seems generally okay (as it is an opt-in method, and so cannot be done if the player in question is unwilling), on the other it doesn’t really comply with the letter of the rule (as it can pull info from players that aren’t in squad/group).

Astralporing.1957:

Najten.2418:

I know there is specific information regarding what a 3rd party program is allowed to do and not do; but since I’m not entirely sure of how these different programs operate I don’t know if they break these rules or not.
Is there an official list of for instance DPS Meters that are allowed to use or will I just have to install one and “hope for the best”? :|

More specifically, would BGDM be allowed?

It’s… tricky. By Anet statement dps check is allowed if it’s for your group or squad. BGDM has a slightly different selection method. On one hand that method seems generally okay (as it is an opt-in method, and so cannot be done if the player in question is unwilling), on the other it doesn’t really comply with the letter of the rule (as it can pull info from players that aren’t in squad/group).

They stated they would allow the parsing of all combat data. That would include people not in your group. What it does is estimate group DPS, which if you follow what the devs stated to a tee, is allowed.

not really a list but:
Overlays that do not impact game function
Addons that only read data that is already visible in-game

What is not allowed:
Macros
Addon’s that read “invisible” data
Addon’s that read data on others that’s not already publicly visible.

FrostDraco.8306:

Astralporing.1957:

Najten.2418:

I know there is specific information regarding what a 3rd party program is allowed to do and not do; but since I’m not entirely sure of how these different programs operate I don’t know if they break these rules or not.
Is there an official list of for instance DPS Meters that are allowed to use or will I just have to install one and “hope for the best”? :|

More specifically, would BGDM be allowed?

It’s… tricky. By Anet statement dps check is allowed if it’s for your group or squad. BGDM has a slightly different selection method. On one hand that method seems generally okay (as it is an opt-in method, and so cannot be done if the player in question is unwilling), on the other it doesn’t really comply with the letter of the rule (as it can pull info from players that aren’t in squad/group).

They stated they would allow the parsing of all combat data. That would include people not in your group. What it does is estimate group DPS, which if you follow what the devs stated to a tee, is allowed.

I would be very wary of running meters that measure ‘out of group’ DPS. The reason being is a quote from Chris C. stating that joining a party or squad is a means of accepting DPS meter use on your performance…

We can then imply that not joining groups or squads is not giving your consent, aka you are within you right as a player to report others for measuring your DPS (aka calling you out in map chat) since you did not consent.

The recommendation for DPS meters in particular then would be:

- Do not abuse them on players not in your group, they should only be used when they join your group. Nothing in the open world even remotely needs a DPS meter.
- Do not use Gear Checking at all. This is specifically mentioned as a no-no, which I think is fair.
- Might be a fair practice to suggest to new raid members that you are running them, but anyone who joins a group is giving consent to them implicitly, that’s kind of what everyone agrees to when they form up. Giving their all to killing raid bosses.

Yeah I’m just interested in it for our Guild’s raids.. :P
Thanks for the answers!

Sykper.6583:

FrostDraco.8306:

Astralporing.1957:

Najten.2418:

I know there is specific information regarding what a 3rd party program is allowed to do and not do; but since I’m not entirely sure of how these different programs operate I don’t know if they break these rules or not.
Is there an official list of for instance DPS Meters that are allowed to use or will I just have to install one and “hope for the best”? :|

More specifically, would BGDM be allowed?

It’s… tricky. By Anet statement dps check is allowed if it’s for your group or squad. BGDM has a slightly different selection method. On one hand that method seems generally okay (as it is an opt-in method, and so cannot be done if the player in question is unwilling), on the other it doesn’t really comply with the letter of the rule (as it can pull info from players that aren’t in squad/group).

They stated they would allow the parsing of all combat data. That would include people not in your group. What it does is estimate group DPS, which if you follow what the devs stated to a tee, is allowed.

I would be very wary of running meters that measure ‘out of group’ DPS. The reason being is a quote from Chris C. stating that joining a party or squad is a means of accepting DPS meter use on your performance…

We can then imply that not joining groups or squads is not giving your consent, aka you are within you right as a player to report others for measuring your DPS (aka calling you out in map chat) since you did not consent.

The recommendation for DPS meters in particular then would be:

- Do not abuse them on players not in your group, they should only be used when they join your group. Nothing in the open world even remotely needs a DPS meter.
- Do not use Gear Checking at all. This is specifically mentioned as a no-no, which I think is fair.
- Might be a fair practice to suggest to new raid members that you are running them, but anyone who joins a group is giving consent to them implicitly, that’s kind of what everyone agrees to when they form up. Giving their all to killing raid bosses.

Very good guidelines. I agree with this.

FrostDraco.8306:

BGDM has already been made to comply with Anets statements. No question on that.

It’s at least slightly open to question, since there is a gear check feature built in to the code, and enabled with an ini setting.

What little we have seen from anet devs on the subject says that they strongly, strongly advise “complete separation” of anything outside the scope of exactly what they said was permitted from the core DPS meter code — so that there was no ambiguity.

Which is … complex, but the whole kitten area is complex, and that really comes from the fact that anet have finally just given up fighting against them and decided that “we tolerate DPS meters, but don’t make us regret our life choices” was the least worst option to bring to the table here.

I’d feel better if ANet would just build a feature into the game.. Just give an option to “use” it or not.. Would make me a lot more comfortable than using any 3rd party software however benign they state they are. :P

Najten.2418:

I’d feel better if ANet would just build a feature into the game.. Just give an option to “use” it or not.. Would make me a lot more comfortable than using any 3rd party software however benign they state they are. :P

It absolutely would, but it’s never going to happen. Third party memory reading meters, being only kind of tolerated, is the best you are going to get.

The good news, though, is that you don’t actually need any of them to succeed in GW2, so feel free to just play the game as the developers intend. They are going to continue to strongly push back against “DBM” style mods, etc, showing up.

ANet doesn’t have a mod interface so they can’t control what a mod does (in theory we can do everything the client can do, automated). Which is why they won’t spend the time to review every build of every mod and say it’s okay or not okay. You as the user are expected to make that call on your own.

From the sticky,

- “Does this program allow someone to play faster, better, longer, or more accurately than someone who doesn’t use it?”
- “Does this program allow someone to ‘play’ when he/she is not at the computer?”
- “Does this program allow the user to gain undeserved rewards?”

If it breaks any of those three basic rules it won’t be okay. However, those conditions are separate from the user agreement which includes the no 3rd party modification to the client clauses and such. The UA is what the february AMA addresses with allowing previously disallowed tools to display combat data. QoL, inspect, distance, and anything else that isn’t “combat data” per AMA definition is assumed to not be okay. Where it gets confusing is that we were asked to ask about specifics in private messages instead of the thread (likely because mods and addons are still a topic of internal discussion), so some of the rules are going to be scattered in different places. From my understanding the major ones were 1) joining a party or squad is considered opting in 2) decouple everything that isn’t combat data 3) do not surface anything about a user that a normal client cannot see.

deltaconnected.4058:

From the sticky,

- “Does this program allow someone to play faster, better, longer, or more accurately than someone who doesn’t use it?”

If it breaks any of those three basic rules it won’t be okay.

Then, strictly speaking, any DPS meter would not be OK, because a DPS meter could help to improve someones play/rotation and without it, he/she would have not become this better.

And a tool like YoloMouse could also fall under this rule. Because in the sometimes hefty visual-clutter of GW2 sometimes the mouse-cursor is lost / not visible and a better visible mouse-cursors helps (some) people to play better in this situations.

P.S. I do believe that YoloMouse does not violate Anets rules.

Zok.4956:

deltaconnected.4058:

From the sticky,

- “Does this program allow someone to play faster, better, longer, or more accurately than someone who doesn’t use it?”

If it breaks any of those three basic rules it won’t be okay.

Then, strictly speaking, any DPS meter would not be OK, because a DPS meter could help to improve someones play/rotation and without it, he/she would have not become this better.

And a tool like YoloMouse could also fall under this rule. Because in the sometimes hefty visual-clutter of GW2 sometimes the mouse-cursor is lost / not visible and a better visible mouse-cursors helps (some) people to play better in this situations.

P.S. I do believe that YoloMouse does not violate Anets rules.

You are correct that the way anet interpreted the rules prior to the AMA made any DPS meter a ToS violation. Post-AMA we are in a situation where they sighed, and said something like “ok, fine, you can use memory reading DPS meters, but only if they restrict themselves to these subset of things.”

(Though, mostly not relevantly, there is quite some opinion in “improve your rotation” is an advantage or not, since coherent arguments can be mustered that better measurement doesn’t change the fundamental nature of practicing, especially in view of the DPS golem existing.)

Changing the mouse cursor, yes, does kind of fall into the same bucket. Ditto ICM, in some ways.

At the end of the day what it comes down to is that we have officially “grudgingly tolerated” DPS meters now.

Zok.4956:

Then, strictly speaking, any DPS meter would not be OK, because a DPS meter could help to improve someones play/rotation and without it, he/she would have not become this better.

And a tool like YoloMouse could also fall under this rule. Because in the sometimes hefty visual-clutter of GW2 sometimes the mouse-cursor is lost / not visible and a better visible mouse-cursors helps (some) people to play better in this situations.

P.S. I do believe that YoloMouse does not violate Anets rules.

Using distance as an example, if a meter shows distance you can use it to know immediately if you’re getting or not getting a damage bonus from it, and know exactly where you should stand if there were red circles behind you. What separates a DPS/combat meter from this is that the meter won’t tell you what to do or when to do it, only the effect of what you have done up to that point. You are correct though – someone with the meter can have a greater understanding where their damage comes from and what to avoid than someone without. And yes, yolomouse can be interpreted as falling under ‘play more accurately’ making the rules that much more confusing.