Guild Wars 2

On and off we see discussions about how the zerker meta has made for “shallow” dungeon content. By this we mean that the desire to run dungeons using pure-DPS builds rather than more utility approaches has made for a meta that some folks consider restricted to a small subset classes, builds, and playstyles.

I wanted to point out that it’s NOT the zerker meta responsible for most of this. It’s a very small piece of the zerker meta: might stacking.

Might is simply too powerful, and stacking might is too essential. It needs nerfing. If it weren’t for might stacking, most of the “boring” aspects of the zerker meta would go away. Class/utility composition? Well we wouldn’t be dependent on PS warriors, fire fields, and blast finishers, which would significantly open up class and build options.

Everyone standing in one spot? This won’t go away entirely, but without the dependence on might stacking the number of places where this is required/expected would definitely go down.

The pure-DPS zerker approaching being bar-none the most effective/efficient way to clear dungeons? Without might stacking it might not be nearly as viable, or at least not optimal for EVERY fight.

With HoT, ANet is making changes to put “essential” features of different classes into the core traits since they realize there’s no real choice when people are required to pick up certain traits to make their class useful. I hope ANet realizes this is currently the same issue facing might stacking.

It is WAY too powerful to be left in its current state as an optional mechanic, since it dominates all other combo field choices and clearly isn’t considered “optional” by the meta at all. Either the effects of might stacking need to be mostly baselined into class DPS or else it just needs a straight up nerf. Either way, let’s end the tyranny of the might stack!

sigh /15 chars…..

Bingo?

You made an account just for the sake of complaining about stacking and the boring zerk meta?
I am thoroughly impressed.

nezroy.8492:

The pure-DPS zerker approaching being bar-none the most effective/efficient way to clear dungeons? Without might stacking it might not be nearly as viable, or at least not optimal for EVERY fight.

How is nerfing damage will make highest damage gear less effective?

Well the thread title isnt exactly wrong. A full nomads team that stacks might is pretty strong.

The rest of the post doesnt really make much sense.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

nezroy.8492:

The pure-DPS zerker approaching being bar-none the most effective/efficient way to clear dungeons? Without might stacking it might not be nearly as viable, or at least not optimal for EVERY fight.

How is nerfing damage will make highest damage gear less effective?

He hasn’t considered that a Might stacking nerf would hurt the DPS of non-berserker sets more than berserker sets.

To be fair, it’s not just him. Pretty much every “I HAVE THE SOLUTION TO THE ZERKER PROBLEM” thread involves some convoluted “solution” that would almost always have the unintended consequence of making berserker even better relative to everything else.

What RandomGuy (edit, and Nike) said. How would removing might make people want less damage stats on their gear? O.o

Whether or not the meta considers it so, stacking might is optional. Groups can still easily clear all content in the game without a single stack of might — there is not a single encounter in the game where might makes the difference between success or failure. It just helps success happen faster.

If they want to add more party diversity, they need to make other mechanics more viable, rather than existing ones less useful. Besides, they already nerfed might a few months ago, this doesn’t need to become a pattern.

NikeEU.7690:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

nezroy.8492:

The pure-DPS zerker approaching being bar-none the most effective/efficient way to clear dungeons? Without might stacking it might not be nearly as viable, or at least not optimal for EVERY fight.

How is nerfing damage will make highest damage gear less effective?

He hasn’t considered that a Might stacking nerf would hurt the DPS of non-berserker sets more than berserker sets.

To be fair, it’s not just him. Pretty much every “I HAVE THE SOLUTION TO THE ZERKER PROBLEM” thread involves some convoluted “solution” that would almost always have the unintended consequence of making berserker even better relative to everything else.

Actually the point of this post was to clarify that the zerker meta is fine and NOT BORING.

The part that makes the zerker meta specifically boring is the might stacking. It ALONE is responsible for most of the boring parts of the zerker meta.

I never said removing might stacking would remove the zerker meta, nor would I even want it to. My point is that removing might stacking WOULD resolve many of the issues people have with the zerker meta. Namely, restrictive class choices/builds and everyone standing in one spot ALL the time.

If you remove the fixed need for a PS warrior and a dependence on fire fields/blast finishers, the number of viable classes/builds goes up quite a bit. Sure, they will still need to be DPS focused builds, but without the additional restrictions imposed by might stacking requirements, the list of valid DPS focused builds absolutely increases. EDIT: And the list gets even more expansive once HoT drops if they actually manage to fix condi build issues for PvE as they are trying to do.

Likewise, if you remove might stacking the hard requirement to all stand on each other is mostly removed. Sure, there are still lots of situations where that will be the optimal approach for other reasons, but without might stacking it’s not nearly so black and white.

Lastly, if they were to actually choose to nerf might stacking entirely rather than just baseline it, it’s quite possible the zerker meta itself would become non-optimal for at least some encounters owing to the overall reduction in maximum possible DPS even for a perfectly optimal group.

Might stacking is a huge DPS boost and without it the zerker meta itself may not be universally successful even with perfect groups. I’m pretty neutral on this last bit though; I don’t actually care which way they take it as the zerker meta itself is perfectly fine and not conceptually boring once might stacking is taken out of the picture.

Imagine zergs colliding in wvw without being able to buff might first, they could tickle each other to death. Or pugs without a PS war in fractals/dungeons. And you’d get the random guy pop up saying how amazing necro is because ele and war are useless in the meta now. Could be a funny april fool’s joke to remove might for a day.

Edit: Would protection also be removed to prevent too strong bunker builds in pvp/wvw?

The only thing remotely wrong with Might is Phalanx Strength and it’s facerolling awesomness.

dlonie.6547:

What RandomGuy (edit, and Nike) said. How would removing might make people want less damage stats on their gear? O.o

Whether or not the meta considers it so, stacking might is optional. Groups can still easily clear all content in the game without a single stack of might — there is not a single encounter in the game where might makes the difference between success or failure. It just helps success happen faster.

“Faster” is the problem though. Everything you just said is ALREADY true for the entire zerker meta. The whole zerker/DPS meta is optional; you can clear dungeons with a totally different meta entirely with no problems whatsoever. But not as quickly.

By that argument there’s nothing at all to change/fix because zerker meta is also optional. Which is a valid viewpoint, no doubt, but my original post obviously presupposes the somewhat popular assumption that SOMEthing needs tweaking to the incentives that are driving people down this “optional but not really” path.

And in that vein, removing the need to might stack directly and instantly removes (or lessens) the incentives driving some of the more boring aspects of the zerker meta. It opens up the viable DPS build choices and lessens the restrictive class meta. No more PS warrior and ele fire field requirements means 40% of group composition is made more flexible in a single change.

I never said it would remove the zerker meta itself. The point is that the DPS focus becomes less boring once the might stacking portion of it is removed from the meta picture.

Buffing (primarily might) is a major tactic in all game modes, not only would this make current instanced content less interesting, but also wvw, spvp… I say less interesting because we beat the current content to death. If everything suddenly becomes a minute longer, that won’t make me like it more.

I will agree with Jerus though that I preferred a little bit more skillful perma might over a PS warr yoloing hundred blades all day long, but that’s the way anet wants to go, so oh well…

SlyDevil.3952:

Imagine zergs colliding in wvw without being able to buff might first, they could tickle each other to death. Or pugs without a PS war in fractals/dungeons. And you’d get the random guy pop up saying how amazing necro is because ele and war are useless in the meta now. Could be a funny april fool’s joke to remove might for a day.

As I pointed out the most likely approach (and one that would be fine IMO) would be to baseline the effects of might stacking into DPS builds. Which is a driving concept behind HoT in general; things that are only nominally optional but aren’t really considered optional in practice should be made a core part of class builds. The illusion of choice is removed and people can focus on useful decisions.

The benefit of this is that there are lots of viable DPS builds/weapons that are currently excluded from the meta because they have no fire fields/blast finishers. They might acceptably tag along, but only once core composition of PS warrior + fire/blast builds is taken care of first. Get rid of that and the DPS picture broadens and flattens out a fair bit.

cranos.5913:

Buffing (primarily might) is a major tactic in all game modes, not only would this make current instanced content less interesting, but also wvw, spvp… I say less interesting because we beat the current content to death. If everything suddenly becomes a minute longer, that won’t make me like it more.

Something that is required, non-optional, and always optimal is not a tactic.

A tactic is a choice you make to do one thing instead of another thing. No one chooses to NOT might stack in favor of something else. It simply doesn’t happen. There’s no tactical decision around might stacking.

It also has no reflection on skill whatsoever. The “skill” of might stacking is “did I read the forum posts where it was clearly pointed out that might stacking is optimal in 100% of situations and then pick one of the limited builds that enables it?”. That’s a binary, skill-free checkmark.

Might stacking is too powerful. It is so powerful that it is pretty much a requirement for all content, all the time. This is the definition of something that should be baselined into core class builds.

Might is optional though.

Might stacking with blasts ISNT too powerful in long drawn out fights. Phalanx IS too powerful in long drawn out fights.

Id rather not see the game simplified further. :P

nezroy.8492:

SlyDevil.3952:

Imagine zergs colliding in wvw without being able to buff might first, they could tickle each other to death. Or pugs without a PS war in fractals/dungeons. And you’d get the random guy pop up saying how amazing necro is because ele and war are useless in the meta now. Could be a funny april fool’s joke to remove might for a day.

As I pointed out the most likely approach (and one that would be fine IMO) would be to baseline the effects of might stacking into DPS builds. Which is a driving concept behind HoT in general; things that are only nominally optional but aren’t really considered optional in practice should be made a core part of class builds. The illusion of choice is removed and people can focus on useful decisions.

The benefit of this is that there are lots of viable DPS builds/weapons that are currently excluded from the meta because they have no fire fields/blast finishers. They might acceptably tag along, but only once core composition of PS warrior + fire/blast builds is taken care of first. Get rid of that and the DPS picture broadens and flattens out a fair bit.

Only you forget before ppl took PS warr, they already took a warrior for the banners and ele would still be top DPS (now even more needed because of kittenty dmg). I don’t see any lessening of the meta, we are used to killing stuff fast, making it slower will only push ppl to maximize more because we lack the patience (at least I do) of putting up with low DPS in 3 year old content.

nezroy.8492:

cranos.5913:

Buffing (primarily might) is a major tactic in all game modes, not only would this make current instanced content less interesting, but also wvw, spvp… I say less interesting because we beat the current content to death. If everything suddenly becomes a minute longer, that won’t make me like it more.

Something that is required, non-optional, and always optimal is not a tactic.

A tactic is a choice you make to do one thing instead of another thing. No one chooses to NOT might stack in favor of something else. It simply doesn’t happen. There’s no tactical decision around might stacking.

It also has no reflection on skill whatsoever. The “skill” of might stacking is “did I read the forum posts where it was clearly pointed out that might stacking is optimal in 100% of situations and then pick one of the limited builds that enables it?”. That’s a binary, skill-free checkmark.

Might stacking is too powerful. It is so powerful that it is pretty much a requirement for all content, all the time. This is the definition of something that should be baselined into core class builds.

So it’s an added thing to build choices, the way wvw zergs move in and out of combat, the way certain classes play in pvp. “Skill free” huh? I’d agree in pve thanks to the PS warr, but it’s a lot different in the pvp modes where both buffing up and stripping boons are a big part of the actual tactics.

cranos.5913:

So it’s an added thing to build choices, the way wvw zergs move in and out of combat, the way certain classes play in pvp. “Skill free” huh? I’d agree in pve thanks to the PS warr, but it’s a lot different in the pvp modes where both buffing up and stripping boons are a big part of the actual tactics.

It’s not an added thing to build choices when the meta expectation is that you might stack in all situations, all the time. Sure, boon stripping matters, but that mostly boils down to “hey let’s put some stuff on top of might to make sure our might doesn’t get stripped immediately”. Removing might stacking doesn’t remove the tactics of buffing and removing boons; it just frees up the choice of boons you might actually use.

cranos.5913:

Only you forget before ppl took PS warr, they already took a warrior for the banners and ele would still be top DPS (now even more needed because of kittenty dmg). I don’t see any lessening of the meta, we are used to killing stuff fast, making it slower will only push ppl to maximize more because we lack the patience (at least I do) of putting up with low DPS in 3 year old content.

Sure people took banner warriors, but they were not essential. There ARE other classes that can provide buff/utility roughly equivalent to banner builds. You could successfully DPS/zerker meta with other classes. Likewise, there are good DPS weapon/build choices that would be freed up for use if we didn’t have hard requirements of fire fields/blast finishers.

I’m not saying that zerker meta goes away, just that the zerker meta gets a lot more flexibility of class/build choice if you remove might stacking. It of course won’t instantly fix every the DPS/utility balance problem across all classes. That would be absurd.

Pretty much everyone in this thread has made the point for me already though, even those not realizing it. All the arguments that “might is too important to nerf” are accidentally proving my original point. Whether ANet likes it or not, might stacking has become a required portion of pretty much all group play. They ought to baseline it at this point as, like all “optional but not really” mechanics, it makes for an artificial illusion of choice in class builds and playstyle that does nothing except alienate people who didn’t read the right forum/reddit theorycrafting posts.

They use all boons already. There’s no “freeing up” since there’s no cap on the amount of boons you can have. Besides eles would still have to stack fury. Likewise blast finishers would also still be needed for stealth.

You:
1. Still not said anything about boring old content becoming more boring still
2. Don’t shift the meta at all
3. Don’t account for other game modes
4. Outright nerf classes and weapon choices depending on the game mode
5. Try to get rid of combos that make GW2 combat fun

Literally the ONLY thing this would do in pve is slow down runs.

I’m failing to see what’s bad about that. It makes someone have to be aware. It’s one more build option for my Engi, bring bombs and have people help me blast fire fields to keep might going, assuming we don’t have a better option.

It’s clear that your hate for might is based more on personal feelings rather than objective viewpoints.

spoj.9672:

Might stacking with blasts ISNT too powerful in long drawn out fights. Phalanx IS too powerful in long drawn out fights.

I’m actually going to reply regarding PS, not so much about might in general.

A number of people have started raising the banner of “PS is too strong” as a trait recently, and it bothers me a bit. From my perspective, PS is very strong, but it inherently guts the damage of the individual to take that trait line for PS to balance that a bit. Additionally, the presence of PS enables other combo fields to be used regularly in meta DPS groups without suffering the problem of combo field selectivity (and thus combo field frustration). Furthermore, PS enables pub players to learn best-practices (maintaining might stacks) and thus become better contributing members both of their current team and of the community in general. There is literally no downside to this in my opinion. Might-stacking by blasts is still crucial to pre-stack before bosses, and might-stacking by PS just allows those high numbers to be sustained throughout a fight. I would literally never recommend to ANet to nerf PS because it has only positive benefits for the game.

Convince me otherwise, please, if the general consensus is that PS is bad for the meta/game or whatever. I’m genuinely curious to hear the other side of this.

PS war saves me the guilt from playing anything else but ele. Please don’t remove it

i remember when people were like lol PS is bad

sure is a good thing rT tested it out and then dub told me about it so i could pass it on to NA

and now it’s “overpowered”, oh my sides

Rising Dusk.2408:

spoj.9672:

Might stacking with blasts ISNT too powerful in long drawn out fights. Phalanx IS too powerful in long drawn out fights.

I’m actually going to reply regarding PS, not so much about might in general.

A number of people have started raising the banner of “PS is too strong” as a trait recently, and it bothers me a bit. From my perspective, PS is very strong, but it inherently guts the damage of the individual to take that trait line for PS to balance that a bit. Additionally, the presence of PS enables other combo fields to be used regularly in meta DPS groups without suffering the problem of combo field selectivity (and thus combo field frustration). Furthermore, PS enables pub players to learn best-practices (maintaining might stacks) and thus become better contributing members both of their current team and of the community in general. There is literally no downside to this in my opinion. Might-stacking by blasts is still crucial to pre-stack before bosses, and might-stacking by PS just allows those high numbers to be sustained throughout a fight. I would literally never recommend to ANet to nerf PS because it has only positive benefits for the game.

Convince me otherwise, please, if the general consensus is that PS is bad for the meta/game or whatever. I’m genuinely curious to hear the other side of this.

Personally I don’t see PS as horrible. What I hate is how mandatory it’s going to be after the LH and general non-staff ele builds nerf, giving you no other option than PS in longer fights. PS will also no longer suffer a personal dmg nerf after the trait changes, meaning you don’t sacrifice a lot for group support anymore.

This is a general problem I see with the new system though. Not necessarily the PS trait.

Oh no dont get me wrong i think PS is fine as it is. I was just saying its very strong and somewhat devalues might stacking in fire fields. Which requires a bit more group investment.

Might stacking itself is only over the top strong in the case of PS + forceful greatsword combo. But that build has tradeoffs to get that. So the OP’s statement of might stacking in general being too strong is mostly false.

maha.7902:

i remember when people were like lol PS is bad

sure is a good thing rT tested it out and then dub told me about it so i could pass it on to NA

and now it’s “overpowered”, oh my sides

Have you seen us using it in any recent records yet? I cant say we wont use it for some stuff in the future though. :P

50 shades of bingo.

Looks like today is the day.

spoj.9672:

maha.7902:

i remember when people were like lol PS is bad

sure is a good thing rT tested it out and then dub told me about it so i could pass it on to NA

and now it’s “overpowered”, oh my sides

Have you seen us using it in any recent records yet? I cant say we wont use it for some stuff in the future though. :P

This conversation happened in one of my PUG – in Fractal:

Deadstate: – I like how a warrior doesn’t have (War)banner.
Me: – I like how an ele doesn’t give fury.
Deadstate: Might?
Me: – Fury.
Deadstate: Might?
Me: Fury!
DeadEat-dirt-state: Use For Grape Justice
Me: … (glance at my utility bar: Signet of Fury, Banner of Discipline, Banner of Strength, Signet of Rage…)

cranos.5913:

Personally I don’t see PS as horrible. What I hate is how mandatory it’s going to be after the LH and general non-staff ele builds nerf, giving you no other option than PS in longer fights. PS will also no longer suffer a personal dmg nerf after the trait changes, meaning you don’t sacrifice a lot for group support anymore.

As a side note, I will say that you shouldn’t be so sure that non-staff Ele builds will be gutted quite like the preview suggested. I’ve been working with them on this, and I think they’re going to dial back those nerfs to keep Scepter builds relevant. I’m pretty confident Ice Bow is still going to get the shaft (I’m trying hard to make sure it doesn’t get nerfed as bad as FGS was).

Rising Dusk.2408:

cranos.5913:

Personally I don’t see PS as horrible. What I hate is how mandatory it’s going to be after the LH and general non-staff ele builds nerf, giving you no other option than PS in longer fights. PS will also no longer suffer a personal dmg nerf after the trait changes, meaning you don’t sacrifice a lot for group support anymore.

As a side note, I will say that you shouldn’t be so sure that non-staff Ele builds will be gutted quite like the preview suggested. I’ve been working with them on this, and I think they’re going to dial back those nerfs to keep Scepter builds relevant. I’m pretty confident Ice Bow is still going to get the shaft (I’m trying hard to make sure it doesn’t get nerfed as bad as FGS was).

+1 for that, that would be awesome. Thanks for the effort anyway.

maha.7902:

i remember when people were like lol PS is bad

sure is a good thing rT tested it out and then dub told me about it so i could pass it on to NA

and now it’s “overpowered”, oh my sides

My buddies and I were using it the day it came out… of course we were baddies also using Hammer guard because then we didn’t have to worry too much about dodging

@Rising, the problem is the passive nature of PS. It’s simply too much for too little. And as far as the DPS loss… well look at the new traits, unless the elite spec is just amazing we’re looking at a PS + DPS build meta, no more fast hands but who cares when you can just GS camp your way to victory.

There are surely many benefits to it that you’ve pointed out, but it still trivializes something that used to be one of the marks of good coordination.

I’m not sure how I’d change it, but to me it’s just one of the steps towards less skilled play. As I said above, my group was using it the day it came out because it fit so well into our “braindead meta” which we called that for a reason. We stopped using it because it just got boring.

Jerus.4350:

@Rising, the problem is the passive nature of PS. It’s simply too much for too little. And as far as the DPS loss… well look at the new traits, unless the elite spec is just amazing we’re looking at a PS + DPS build meta, no more fast hands but who cares when you can just GS camp your way to victory.

There are surely many benefits to it that you’ve pointed out, but it still trivializes something that used to be one of the marks of good coordination.

I’m not sure how I’d change it, but to me it’s just one of the steps towards less skilled play. As I said above, my group was using it the day it came out because it fit so well into our “braindead meta” which we called that for a reason. We stopped using it because it just got boring.

I can certainly appreciate the desire for a more active rotation. I know that GS camping is boring for me and that weapon camping in general is something people dislike, so I made some points to ANet about that a bit ago and they’re trying to rework stuff to encourage the fast hands rotations we all enjoy with Warrior while still keeping things like PS as they are. It’s for this same reason that I’m pushing to keep Scepter builds relevant with ANet on Eles; I know some people prefer that kind of gameplay, and those builds should absolutely retain relevance.

Removing might stacking or make it less useful would reduce teamplay. It’s one of a few elements which forces you to interact a bit with each other.

Everyone standing in one spot? This won’t go away entirely, but without the dependence on might stacking the number of places where this is required/expected would definitely go down.

There are several reasons why stacking is good:
-your aoe hits all enemies at the same time, so pulling enemies together increases your dmg
-teambuffs are often on a small range, without your team stacking many effects would miss teammates
-fields are stationary, you want to fight in fields giving you protection, healing, might, condiremoval, etc.
-projectile defense is stationary. A WoR can protect the whole team – if it stacks.
-to rezz a downed you have to stay close to him, rallying works better when stacking.
-…

Rising Dusk.2408:

From my perspective, PS is very strong, but it inherently guts the damage of the individual to take that trait line for PS to balance that a bit.

Sure, it guts the damage NOW. It won’t when you’ll be able to go 6/6/6… Huh. What then?
But that’s where the game is heading, right. Why would anyone go lh ele + staff ele and actually have some serious rotations when you can go ps warrior and 2 staff eles spamming 100b and lava font?

Let’s nerf lh, there’s a dire need for a nerf. Anet 2015

Moment for the absurd: Let’s remove combos entirely. This way we’re all on the same level and necros will be happy. No more boring might stacking, or stealth blasting, no more exploits. There it is. I’m sick of having to stack might and spam my stupid blasts during skips or before fights. F-it, gonna play necro and do nothing instead.

Nah its mobility meta. Full nomad tank team comp that uses mobility skills >>> Fully buffed DPS team comp RP walkers.

On a side note, I agree with Dusk, I think PS is a good thing for pugs.

deSade.9437:

Sure, it guts the damage NOW. It won’t when you’ll be able to go 6/6/6… Huh. What then?

Boonduration gets reduced for PS Wars, could have some impact, dunno.
On the other hand: Guards will bring more lightfields, LH Eles will suffer.

might is just quickness without the side effect of shortening your own positive effects. all it does is reduce battle times.

I think of might as increasing your potential to go above and beyond what you are normally capable of.

if might stacked vuln and after enough stacks produced chill or fear, it would have tactical use. right now it’s just a time reducer. further nerfing or removing might would only make fights last longer, and nothing else.

longer fights means more chance for mistakes, means more time playing in the game, means lower drop rate, means more money for anet in the long term.

I never get these posts. How is wearing different armor exciting? How about more fights where we are swapping out weapons and utilities to outsmart our foes, and utilizing the combat system.

Honestly I already have an entire 18 slot bag dedicated to just my weapons on my warrior, and I only have specialized weapons for arah. I don’t want to throw sets of armor in there too.

Add a boss who you HAVE to keep cc locked or they are a guaranteed party wipe. Make it so that boss only takes damage from cc and now everyone is really running some weird stuff for that one encounter.

Add a boss that has a boat load of self boons, and applies a lot of conditions, all of a suddenly necro is becoming more desirable. Hell, this could even be the buff lupicus gets from grubs.

Also add a lupicus you can’t cheese wall, now people are bringing group stability, reflects, blocks, etc.

Add a boss that has wicked high toughness, suddenly everyone is gonna retrait for condi. You start seeing sword warriors in pve. That could still be a pain though, as we may have to carry sinister, then again, 1 of my 8 characters is full sinister so it seems good to me lol.

Add a boss who’s attack animations are effected by chill. Now perma chill is huge for damage mitigation for that one fight. How weird is that?

Add a boss that we all fight in power suits/with bundles.

It just seems like there are so many cooler ways to make pve combat awesome rather than some unavoidable damage so your forced to bring toughness/vit/healing power.

Sorry, OP. Might stacking isn’t a problem on other armor sets that don’t involve crit damage.

Ferocity needs nerfing or removal. Just remove extra crit damage stat, and merge power and condition damage into the single power stat.

Then people can customize around healing power or toughness or boon/condition duration.

So long as you introduce differences in offensive potential, people will always rush offense.

You can never have too much DPS, but you can always have extraneous utility/defense. And it will stay that way so long as we have health bars in our concept of combat mechanics.

spoj.9672:

Well the thread title isnt exactly wrong. A full nomads team that stacks might is pretty strong.

The rest of the post doesnt really make much sense.

Not if they’re all necros. Or 0/0/10/30/30, for that matter.

It is the zerker meta. This is what happens when there is a game with no tanks or no healers. There is only damage. Nothing else matters but how fast something can die.

They don’t want healers so healing power is a joke stat. They don’t want tanks so high toughness/vitality is a joke combination.

Anet thought they were changing the world when they left the trinity behind and all they did was remake Monster Hunter.

Unless power, precision and ferocity get removed from the game entirely, berserker’s will be the best damage combination. If it is removed, the second best damage combo will take it’s place.

Kendayar.7308:

It is the zerker meta. This is what happens when there is a game with no tanks or no healers. There is only damage. Nothing else matters but how fast something can die.

They don’t want healers so healing power is a joke stat. They don’t want tanks so high toughness/vitality is a joke combination.

Anet thought they were changing the world when they left the trinity behind and all they did was remake Monster Hunter.

Unless power, precision and ferocity get removed from the game entirely, berserker’s will be the best damage combination. If it is removed, the second best damage combo will take it’s place.

You just contradicted the heck out of yourself.

You first open your comment by declaring that the problem lies in with the current meta involving berserker gear and then at the end you admit that it has nothing to do with the “problem” by saying that the next best option would take its place.

So there we have it! The zerker meta is confirmed to not be problematic… thanks for agreeing with so many of us.

If you want any different approaches to be considered, then the playerbase can’t be able to rehearse the same content for 3 years until it can be done blindfolded and drunk. Then and only then will it be a worthwhile consideration for the vast majority of dungeon runners to take tankier builds.

tl;dr – we need new content.

Kendayar.7308:

It is the zerker meta. This is what happens when there is a game with no tanks or no healers. There is only damage. Nothing else matters but how fast something can die.

I played WoW for many years, and damage is way more important in that game than Guild Wars 2; even tank damage mattered. I quit after Cataclysm (2-3 years ago), but first kills on bosses were always made by guilds who did it under-geared while dropping healers (2-3 healers in a 25-man raid) and stacking the best damage-dealers in their place. This was at the highest level, by the way; competing for world firsts, etc.

nezroy.8492:

On and off we see discussions about how the zerker meta has made for “shallow” dungeon content. By this we mean that the desire to run dungeons using pure-DPS builds rather than more utility approaches has made for a meta that some folks consider restricted to a small subset classes, builds, and playstyles.

I wanted to point out that it’s NOT the zerker meta responsible for most of this. It’s a very small piece of the zerker meta: might stacking.

Might is simply too powerful, and stacking might is too essential. It needs nerfing. If it weren’t for might stacking, most of the “boring” aspects of the zerker meta would go away. Class/utility composition? Well we wouldn’t be dependent on PS warriors, fire fields, and blast finishers, which would significantly open up class and build options.

Everyone standing in one spot? This won’t go away entirely, but without the dependence on might stacking the number of places where this is required/expected would definitely go down.

The pure-DPS zerker approaching being bar-none the most effective/efficient way to clear dungeons? Without might stacking it might not be nearly as viable, or at least not optimal for EVERY fight.

With HoT, ANet is making changes to put “essential” features of different classes into the core traits since they realize there’s no real choice when people are required to pick up certain traits to make their class useful. I hope ANet realizes this is currently the same issue facing might stacking.

It is WAY too powerful to be left in its current state as an optional mechanic, since it dominates all other combo field choices and clearly isn’t considered “optional” by the meta at all. Either the effects of might stacking need to be mostly baselined into class DPS or else it just needs a straight up nerf. Either way, let’s end the tyranny of the might stack!

Might is not the problem – and it has already been nerfed once. Might is useful in game as it is because it gives damage to non-damage oriented set-ups.
Nerf might and you make zerker even more of a necessity.

FF and Blast finishers are actually adding complexity to the game. Why do you think if they went away it would “open up” possibilities? What exactly are fire fields ruining?

Everyone standing in one place going away? No. Not even if you remove might. Why? Because why wouldn’t you stand in one place?

If 5 players stack and 1 goes down the others have to simply press F and he’s back up. It has nothing to do with might. With the way the game is currently set up even without might and boon sharing there is no reason to not stand in one spot.

The pure-DPS zerker approaching being bar-none the most effective/efficient way to clear dungeons? Without might stacking it might not be nearly as viable, or at least not optimal for EVERY fight.

I actually took this post seriously until this part but this just shows you’re not getting it.

People do the pure dps zerker thing because they want efficiency. If you take away some of their damage you’ll only make zerker enforcing stricter since you’ll need every ounce of damage you can squeeze out of your party now that your might damage is gone.
Food might become a requirement. Or other consumables.

Nerfing damage won’t change the “pure dps zerker” mentality because this mentality does not constitute a consequence of gameplay but a consequence of player choice and priority.
Players who play like this value rewards and nothing else. Thus they want the fastest way to those rewards. You can’t fix a “people problem” by changing the game.

So no – let’s not “end the tyranny of the might stack” because there’s no such thing. If you claim there’s a problem just because something is meta it just shows you don’t really understand what meta means.

nezroy.8492:

Likewise, if you remove might stacking the hard requirement to all stand on each other is mostly removed. Sure, there are still lots of situations where that will be the optimal approach for other reasons, but without might stacking it’s not nearly so black and white.

Ressing quickly and effectively.
Non-cleaving enemy attacks.
Other boon sharing.
Aegis.
Keeping the boss in one spot so he doesn’t move and you can all hit and not waste time chasing.
Reflects.

It is very black and white. Even without boons there’s no logical reason not to be on top of the boss.

nezroy.8492:

Lastly, if they were to actually choose to nerf might stacking entirely rather than just baseline it, it’s quite possible the zerker meta itself would become non-optimal for at least some encounters owing to the overall reduction in maximum possible DPS even for a perfectly optimal group.
Might stacking is a huge DPS boost and without it the zerker meta itself may not be universally successful even with perfect groups. I’m pretty neutral on this last bit though; I don’t actually care which way they take it as the zerker meta itself is perfectly fine and not conceptually boring once might stacking is taken out of the picture.

So if a full zerker party that performs 100% no longer has the capacity to clear the boss because with so much damage gone they’re unable to complete what happens to a non-zerker party that performs at let’s say 60% capacity?
Do they never complete the content? Ever?

Purple Miku.7032:

You just contradicted the heck out of yourself.

You first open your comment by declaring that the problem lies in with the current meta involving berserker gear and then at the end you admit that it has nothing to do with the “problem” by saying that the next best option would take its place.

it came out better in my head. it was more accurate of me to open with blaming the conditions that created the meta instead of the meta itself.

but yes, i do agree with everyone that the zerker meta is just a symptom of the issue.

@OP: You should ask yourself these questions:

- What do you expect from a bossfight in dungeons?
- How do you achieve this expectations?
- Does your idea really achieve what you expect?
- Does your idea have any drawbacks?

Let me try to answer these questions for you. You want more thrilling bossfights and I assume that you don’t find thrill in optimising your damage and killing the bosses as quick as possible, because otherwise you wouldn’t even have started this thread.

Your argument of how to make bossfights more entertaining is to remove might, so that bosses don’t die as quickly. You hope that those bosses will become more challenging with this change. Now for you this might be true, for you the bosses might become harder to deal with. But for “us”, for the ones who are already doing dungeons on a daily basis and the ones who know how the bosses work and how to play around them, it wont be more fun. It will be more dull. GW2 did never have the best boss mechanics or the best AI and the most bosses are very simple. In fact, the only fun most of “us” find in these bossfights is the thrill to be as effective as possible and to kill the boss as quickly as possible, because the bossfight itself is not thrilling.

So the third question I’ve asked you to answer would have to be answered with no, it doesn’t achieve what you it to achieve. Not for the masses.