Guild Wars 2

Ok so yesterday I was kicked from a dungeon for not stacking correctly.

Note, I was still stacking, just somehow “wrong”. As if standing on a pile could somehow be done incorrectly.

Nobody bothered to explain or anything but it irked me because I’ve had my Dungeon Master for over a year now and don’t like being called out a noob.

So the boss was the Spider Queen in AC where you pull her around the corner while all stack up behind the pillar. I assume you did that to position her and for easier revives etc. But there must be something more to it because apparently even moving a yeard or two from your original position is somehow bad.

So what is it about this boss that makes moving so bad? I did realize the damage to the group increased after using the Fiery Greatsword but never associated it with me moving slightly out of the pack.

Can someone explain?

Standing not 100% correctly can cause the Spider to not come into the corner so the players won’t push her into the wall but the other way around so it gets harder to dodge her attacks and one player being just an inch too far away can cause her strong AOE which will kill everyone in this small place. If there were still small spiders, those might positioning themselves in a way the players cannot cleave them without moving, making the encounter harder as the spiders hit pretty hard after reflections are gone.

But yeah, it’s pretty harsh to kick you for this lol.

When the spider was already in the wall correctly, I don’t see a real reason for not moving just a little bit backwards (which actually don’t help you anyway). Maybe they feared getting the AOE. Just stupid folks.

It might be the case that these PUGs were those people who always stack behind corners, using LoS without actually understanding how LoS works, so everytime they LoS Alpha behind a pillar and push him out or so the do not break the LoS again because they think sticking to that one spot is everything you have to do which is dumb

Moving, even a liiiitle bit, can start AoE poison damage which will immediately cause everyone to die. It’s really quite important to stack tight in that corner and not move.

maxinion.8396:

Moving, even a liiiitle bit, can start AoE poison damage which will immediately cause everyone to die. It’s really quite important to stack tight in that corner and not move.

Ok so this kind of confirms my suspicion.

Still, it feels like an odd mechanic for an AoE damage ability to trigger when people are NOT stacked up tightly.

Are there any more bosses with this sort of mechanic (not stacking in general, but being very frickle about positioning) I should know about?

I realized that Collosus Rumblus can be a bit like that too and will kill you outright if you’re not standing on the exact right point.

I’ve been kicked quite a few times in AC pug runs too. Once, they lured the spider queen but it went out of melee range, so I followed her in order to avoid the poison fields. Well, Pugs didn’t do so, she used the poison attack, I quickly dodged out and solo’ed her once the others died. They accused me of doing it wrong, because ‘stacking prevents the aoe’. However, we reach Kholer. All four pugs are going into that corner in the pillar where you can’t see kitten. I adapt, pull Kholer and run there. He gets into the corner, being totally covered by particle effects and does the pull. As I realize the CC, I teleport out, being the only one to survive. Solo’ing a bit further, as they didn’t manage to attack the mobs I fgs’ed down, they tell me that I once again messed up by ’not stacking so they all wipe, followed by loading screen.

Also fun when you tell people they should stop messing howling king add’s aggro up, they argue with ‘you die too so shut up’. When I tell them I could easily solo, they tell it’s impossible and I should show them. Doing so, all adds dying before reaching me, seeing loading screen at 15% boss hp.

Tl;dr: nothing wrong with stacking, it’s just the people who think stacking itself is effective, not understanding it’s the positioning which is important.

PS: From now on I’m going to kick anyone who’s willing to do Kholer in that dumb corner. There are so many better LoS spots, especially when solo/duo’ing with active adds.

The spider queen only spits when it tries to attack somebody it cant melee. When fighting “normally” its not an issue since the aoe’s are spread out and easily dodged, and dont trigger if all players are meleeing normally. In the tight confines even 1 character distance prevents her from attack, which triggers a spit, with multiple aoes in one spot.

Tazza and alpha can instant down BECAUSE of stacking (dodge or die), the midboss champ in SE3 will hurt more if players don’t stack smoothly (the burning rings, but they can be cleansed easily so its not a big deal). Lupi when you range him its recommended to stack so you can deal with failed grub dodges better (because if you are ranging you are in group that is going to range, they will probably let grubs happen).

Dee Jay.2460:

it irked me because I’ve had my Dungeon Master for over a year now and don’t like being called out a noob.

Implying having DM makes you awesome at the game.

Anicetus.1253:

I’ve been kicked quite a few times in AC pug runs too. Once, they lured the spider queen but it went out of melee range, so I followed her in order to avoid the poison fields. Well, Pugs didn’t do so, she used the poison attack, I quickly dodged out and solo’ed her once the others died. They accused me of doing it wrong, because ‘stacking prevents the aoe’. However, we reach Kholer. All four pugs are going into that corner in the pillar where you can’t see kitten. I adapt, pull Kholer and run there. He gets into the corner, being totally covered by particle effects and does the pull. As I realize the CC, I teleport out, being the only one to survive. Solo’ing a bit further, as they didn’t manage to attack the mobs I fgs’ed down, they tell me that I once again messed up by ’not stacking so they all wipe, followed by loading screen.

Also fun when you tell people they should stop messing howling king add’s aggro up, they argue with ‘you die too so shut up’. When I tell them I could easily solo, they tell it’s impossible and I should show them. Doing so, all adds dying before reaching me, seeing loading screen at 15% boss hp.

Tl;dr: nothing wrong with stacking, it’s just the people who think stacking itself is effective, not understanding it’s the positioning which is important.

PS: From now on I’m going to kick anyone who’s willing to do Kholer in that dumb corner. There are so many better LoS spots, especially when solo/duo’ing with active adds.

Fight fire with fire!

Actually fighting fire (corner) with water (under the dungeo… err, open field).

Anicetus.1253:

PS: From now on I’m going to kick anyone who’s willing to do Kholer in that dumb corner. There are so many better LoS spots, especially when solo/duo’ing with active adds.

Um, what corner? I only know of one around the west of the platform where FGS just owns kholer in seconds. One decent Wall of Reflection or Feedback will guarantee success with mostly 90% of HP.

About the spider queen: can i move while fighting her, as long as i stay in melee range?

Because when i play as a squishy class i always end up downed first, sometimes the fight doesnt finish so fast and some groups lack condition cleanse, so if i position myself away from her melee atack but keep next to the red ring under her, does it work?

Staying in melee range will do, it doesn’t matter if you’re behind her or not since she can just turn to melee.

If you get downed a lot try dodging, if you are targeted she will hit you if you don’t have evades or prots against it. Stacking is only an issue because of cleave. Also, what class is “squishy”? I’ve played most at 80 and IDK why people consider some classes squishy. They all have decent enough active damage avoidance if built competently.

Dee Jay.2460:

maxinion.8396:

Moving, even a liiiitle bit, can start AoE poison damage which will immediately cause everyone to die. It’s really quite important to stack tight in that corner and not move.

Ok so this kind of confirms my suspicion.

Still, it feels like an odd mechanic for an AoE damage ability to trigger when people are NOT stacked up tightly.

Are there any more bosses with this sort of mechanic (not stacking in general, but being very frickle about positioning) I should know about?

I realized that Collosus Rumblus can be a bit like that too and will kill you outright if you’re not standing on the exact right point.

Well there is the wurm in TA before you select forward or up. At range it sprays quite a bit of AoEs. In melee you still have potentially dangerous attacks but you can at least dodge those. The ranged AoE spray can leave you with no place to stand. I guess the issue is similar to the spider. It is not a matter of dodging AoEs but the fact that those AoEs can cover everything and you are just left with no choice but to stand in AoEs.

That kind of things makes me wonder what the designers were thinking. We are supposed to dodge attacks and avoid AoEs but what exactly are we expected to do when you cover the floor with persistent AoEs? Stacking helps to avoid that and prevents the NPC from screwing things up but that doesn’t seem like it was the intended method.

Coe stack on Alpha

You have my sympathy. Started pugging recently and it has put me off since if you can’t read the leader’s mind for their tactics, you get called an idiot and kicked. Can’t even report them due to party chat disappearing afterwards. I know it’s the same in every mmo, but I hope tighter restrictions on kicking are put into the game down the line.

Many forget there was a time they didn’t know the tactics themselves..

Casmurro.9046:

About the spider queen: can i move while fighting her, as long as i stay in melee range?

Because when i play as a squishy class i always end up downed first, sometimes the fight doesnt finish so fast and some groups lack condition cleanse, so if i position myself away from her melee atack but keep next to the red ring under her, does it work?

Here is a good example of how the fight is “intended to be” in melee range in the open field. Basically you need to stay in melee range only when she is about to use one of her autoattacks, and her rotations are allways 2 autoattacks followed with the entangling web.

Randulf.7614:

You have my sympathy. Started pugging recently and it has put me off since if you can’t read the leader’s mind for their tactics, you get called an idiot and kicked. Can’t even report them due to party chat disappearing afterwards. I know it’s the same in every mmo, but I hope tighter restrictions on kicking are put into the game down the line.

Many forget there was a time they didn’t know the tactics themselves..

If you admit that you don’t know what you’re doing before the run starts (assuming it isn’t a speed run) you most likely won’t be kicked.

Communicate, and things are fine.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Randulf.7614:

You have my sympathy. Started pugging recently and it has put me off since if you can’t read the leader’s mind for their tactics, you get called an idiot and kicked. Can’t even report them due to party chat disappearing afterwards. I know it’s the same in every mmo, but I hope tighter restrictions on kicking are put into the game down the line.

Many forget there was a time they didn’t know the tactics themselves..

If you admit that you don’t know what you’re doing before the run starts (assuming it isn’t a speed run) you most likely won’t be kicked.

Communicate, and things are fine.

Agreed in some cases (and I do), but I know diff tactics in other circumstances to them so it is difficult to judge. But asking has got me kicked too. It’s a vicious circle

Randulf.7614:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Randulf.7614:

You have my sympathy. Started pugging recently and it has put me off since if you can’t read the leader’s mind for their tactics, you get called an idiot and kicked. Can’t even report them due to party chat disappearing afterwards. I know it’s the same in every mmo, but I hope tighter restrictions on kicking are put into the game down the line.

Many forget there was a time they didn’t know the tactics themselves..

If you admit that you don’t know what you’re doing before the run starts (assuming it isn’t a speed run) you most likely won’t be kicked.

Communicate, and things are fine.

Agreed in some cases (and I do), but I know diff tactics in other circumstances to them so it is difficult to judge. But asking has got me kicked too. It’s a vicious circle

It’s better to be kicked at the beginning of a run though, so… Yeah. Always say that you aren’t aware of the current pug tactics until you are sure you know what to do.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Randulf.7614:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Randulf.7614:

You have my sympathy. Started pugging recently and it has put me off since if you can’t read the leader’s mind for their tactics, you get called an idiot and kicked. Can’t even report them due to party chat disappearing afterwards. I know it’s the same in every mmo, but I hope tighter restrictions on kicking are put into the game down the line.

Many forget there was a time they didn’t know the tactics themselves..

If you admit that you don’t know what you’re doing before the run starts (assuming it isn’t a speed run) you most likely won’t be kicked.

Communicate, and things are fine.

Agreed in some cases (and I do), but I know diff tactics in other circumstances to them so it is difficult to judge. But asking has got me kicked too. It’s a vicious circle

It’s better to be kicked at the beginning of a run though, so… Yeah. Always say that you aren’t aware of the current pug tactics until you are sure you know what to do.

It’s better to not be kicked at all

Randulf.7614:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Randulf.7614:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Randulf.7614:

You have my sympathy. Started pugging recently and it has put me off since if you can’t read the leader’s mind for their tactics, you get called an idiot and kicked. Can’t even report them due to party chat disappearing afterwards. I know it’s the same in every mmo, but I hope tighter restrictions on kicking are put into the game down the line.

Many forget there was a time they didn’t know the tactics themselves..

If you admit that you don’t know what you’re doing before the run starts (assuming it isn’t a speed run) you most likely won’t be kicked.

Communicate, and things are fine.

Agreed in some cases (and I do), but I know diff tactics in other circumstances to them so it is difficult to judge. But asking has got me kicked too. It’s a vicious circle

It’s better to be kicked at the beginning of a run though, so… Yeah. Always say that you aren’t aware of the current pug tactics until you are sure you know what to do.

It’s better to not be kicked at all

But that’s not realistic. I get kicked still. I’ve seen several funny posts from fabulous dungeon runners who have gotten kicked.

It’s the way it is, and if a group doesn’t want you, that’s their business. But it is ALWAYS better to be kicked before you waste your time. Always.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Randulf.7614:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Randulf.7614:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Randulf.7614:

You have my sympathy. Started pugging recently and it has put me off since if you can’t read the leader’s mind for their tactics, you get called an idiot and kicked. Can’t even report them due to party chat disappearing afterwards. I know it’s the same in every mmo, but I hope tighter restrictions on kicking are put into the game down the line.

Many forget there was a time they didn’t know the tactics themselves..

If you admit that you don’t know what you’re doing before the run starts (assuming it isn’t a speed run) you most likely won’t be kicked.

Communicate, and things are fine.

Agreed in some cases (and I do), but I know diff tactics in other circumstances to them so it is difficult to judge. But asking has got me kicked too. It’s a vicious circle

It’s better to be kicked at the beginning of a run though, so… Yeah. Always say that you aren’t aware of the current pug tactics until you are sure you know what to do.

It’s better to not be kicked at all

But that’s not realistic. I get kicked still. I’ve seen several funny posts from fabulous dungeon runners who have gotten kicked.

It’s the way it is, and if a group doesn’t want you, that’s their business. But it is ALWAYS better to be kicked before you waste your time. Always.

Aye I know it is not realistic. My point is partly a vent (I’m allowed) and also a bit of feedback that hopes the kicking process will be a little less cavalier than it is now.

Happens. However, rejoice, there are 2 viable solutions to your problem!
1. learn how to stack properly
2. find friends who do not stack and enjoy playing with them
and dont worry for being kicked. It happens sometimes.

Fext.3614:

2. find friends who do not stack and enjoy playing with them

Yes, like u casual players, it’s a perfect alternative… I did AC quite a few times now, and we usually take on the spider head on, the old fashioned way and it also works. I admit, I usually always play with the same people so we all know each other.

On the other hand, we’re often also one player short for the party. Before entering a dungeon we advertise in partychat, that we’re a casual group… but lot’s of players we invite still leave the party when they see we don’t do that sort of tactics. So if you want to try the 2nd alternative, you’re welcome to add me to you contacts list… I’ll contact you if we’re 1 person short.

My friends and I have never kicked people for applying different tactis. It’s not wrong to have a different tactic, you might even pick up some good stuff from other people. In the event we actually do apply a stacking, or any other type of tactic, we do try to explain it in the chat first. Because honestly, some dungeons really require a measure of tactical group play.

You need to know not just the mechanics of the boss but the mechanics of other players. Apparently it’s super hard to move out of an AoE circle, to the point where players would much rather stand still in the poison while they die and kick the person who went out of range, rather than dodge into a safe spot and type “hey pls stay melee so we don’t get aoe”. Doing this requires gargantuan levels of patience, co-operation and adaptability.

Such mechanics are blatantly a bug you know? Stacking is a form of glitch wich prevent the boss using some of its mechanics (aka spider venom) Boss should keep using their mechanics regardless of player positioning on the map then wed see who can actualy ’’dance’’ the best at the spider queen

kyubi.3620:

Such mechanics are blatantly a bug you know? Stacking is a form of glitch wich prevent the boss using some of its mechanics (aka spider venom) Boss should keep using their mechanics regardless of player positioning on the map then wed see who can actualy ’’dance’’ the best at the spider queen

no
the poison field is MEANT to be prevented by fighting her in melee, which in turn exposes you to her weakness/bleed causing auto-attacks. not really a fair tradeoff but it’s pretty clear that the poison field is only triggered by range. stacking doesn’t prevent the poison, it just makes it easier to all be in melee range and allows for FGS bursting.

kyubi.3620:

Such mechanics are blatantly a bug you know? Stacking is a form of glitch wich prevent the boss using some of its mechanics (aka spider venom) Boss should keep using their mechanics regardless of player positioning on the map then wed see who can actualy ’’dance’’ the best at the spider queen

Would you also say its a glitch to range lupi, since it prevents him from using his kick attack in p1, and his swipe in p2?

kyubi.3620:

Such mechanics are blatantly a bug you know? Stacking is a form of glitch wich prevent the boss using some of its mechanics (aka spider venom) Boss should keep using their mechanics regardless of player positioning on the map then wed see who can actualy ’’dance’’ the best at the spider queen

“Stacking is a form of glitch”

oh kyubi…. the new a t s e ?

laharl.8435:

kyubi.3620:

Such mechanics are blatantly a bug you know? Stacking is a form of glitch wich prevent the boss using some of its mechanics (aka spider venom) Boss should keep using their mechanics regardless of player positioning on the map then wed see who can actualy ’’dance’’ the best at the spider queen

“Stacking is a form of glitch”

oh kyubi…. the new a t s e ?

TBH, he is more tolerable than a t s e. Kyubi doesn’t go on prolonged responses of pure stupidity. He generally says his views in a decent way. He just happens to have some silly views, that’s all.

It’s an understatement.

Don’t give him any ideas.

The OP shows one problem with everyone following common knowledge tactics like stacking all the time. Nobody ever sees what happens when it goes wrong so the community forgets why they’re doing it!

Stooperdale.3560:

The OP shows one problem with everyone following common knowledge tactics like stacking all the time. Nobody ever sees what happens when it goes wrong so the community forgets why they’re doing it!

Most pugs don’t know the intricacies of the mechanics anyway. In this case, they often think stacking in the corner itself it what makes the Queen not use the aoe. They’re just doing something that was shown to them a while back that worked well, something that dungeon guilds had been doing months prior. They didn’t forget why they were stacking, they basically never really knew why, except that it’s faster, but that’s all they really need to know.

maxinion.8396:

Moving, even a liiiitle bit, can start AoE poison damage which will immediately cause everyone to die. It’s really quite important to stack tight in that corner and not move.

That’s just some fairy tale told to pugs to scare them. As long as every target stays within a little bit more than melee range (aka. 180), she’s never going to use it. The only time you really strictly want to stack is when you have an ele who knows how to use fiery greatsword.

I run behind her back to avoid getting cleaved (if she’s in a spot where you can), and if she’s doing the “cone-web” attack you can just move to the sides and avoid it with ease.

Once the mobs are pulled into the correct spot, strict stacking isn’t needed anymore, you can often position yourself in a way that doesn’t move them and yet helps you avoid attacks (works with the Graveling champions too).

Aleth.9630:

maxinion.8396:

Moving, even a liiiitle bit, can start AoE poison damage which will immediately cause everyone to die. It’s really quite important to stack tight in that corner and not move.

That’s just some fairy tale told to pugs to scare them. As long as every target stays within a little bit more than melee range (aka. 180), she’s never going to use it. The only time you really strictly want to stack is when you have an ele who knows how to use fiery greatsword.

I run behind her back to avoid getting cleaved (if she’s in a spot where you can), and if she’s doing the “cone-web” attack you can just move to the sides and avoid it with ease.

Once the mobs are pulled into the correct spot, strict stacking isn’t needed anymore, you can often position yourself in a way that doesn’t move them and yet helps you avoid attacks (works with the Graveling champions too).

Sure, if you’re good, you’ll know how to move (into her, etc.) Most pugs (like OP), on the other hand, dodge back, cause the range damage, and everyone wipes.

I also usually FGS the fight, so yeah, stacking is good

laharl.8435:

Stooperdale.3560:

The OP shows one problem with everyone following common knowledge tactics like stacking all the time. Nobody ever sees what happens when it goes wrong so the community forgets why they’re doing it!

Most pugs don’t know the intricacies of the mechanics anyway. In this case, they often think stacking in the corner itself it what makes the Queen not use the aoe. They’re just doing something that was shown to them a while back that worked well, something that dungeon guilds had been doing months prior. They didn’t forget why they were stacking, they basically never really knew why, except that it’s faster, but that’s all they really need to know.

That sums it up quite nicely actually.

I know that stacking is effective because I see it all the time, every day. But aside from a few exceptions I don’t know what makes it so effective in PvE. Easy revives, boons and mitigation play a role of course but obviously stacking also helps suppress certain boss mechanics as well.