Guild Wars 2

Rising, I think the only issue is waiting till the last boss to kick. Any time sooner I can understand, but when you’re only going to have to deal with them for 1 additional cutscene… c’mon man.

Either way though, the reason I wanted to respond was to ask, since when has watching cutscenes in a STORY mode been out of the norm?

dlonie.6547:

But I do have to ask — how exactly are new players supposed to know what the norms are?

Maybe he doesn’t know what the norm is, and maybe he doesn’t know to read the LFGs to find out. That’s okay. What he should have done, regardless, is ask at the beginning “Hey guys it’s my first time, can I watch cutscenes?” and then either stuck with the group or left based on the responses.

dlonie.6547:

But I do have to ask — how exactly are new players supposed to know what the norms are? And how is waiting until the end before kicking not griefing? O.o

Well, my example with the skill point scrolls happened at the end of the dungeon. It just got aggravating enough that I figured I’d vote to kick the guy for my own sanity, and if everyone disagreed with me they wouldn’t vote to confirm. They confirmed, though, and there the guy went and everyone else was happy and 4-manned the final encounter.

I don’t think being at the end of the run makes you immune to kicking. It means that people should be more leery about it, but if what someone is doing really annoys you, it can be totally justified.

Ultimately it depends on circumstances, and in this case we only have the story as told by the OP. We don’t know if it was actually the end, or how emphatic the people were that they didn’t like him watching cinematics. I don’t consider him a liar, but I do know we’re not hearing all the details here and I believe that judging people for a half-story is, well, uncool.

As an aside, I love that you’re sympathetic to the plight of the new player, Lilith, but I genuinely am saddened by your current reaction.

Jerus.4350:

Rising, I think the only issue is waiting till the last boss to kick. Any time sooner I can understand, but when you’re only going to have to deal with them for 1 additional cutscene… c’mon man.

Either way though, the reason I wanted to respond was to ask, since when has watching cutscenes in a STORY mode been out of the norm?

Here you go.

Dusk excuse me while I cry myself a river about what you think.

But really, I can’t believe you chuckleheads. norms. In story dungeons. Ha.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Dusk excuse me while I cry myself a river about what you think.

And here I thought you, of all people, better than this. I’m sorry I said anything at all.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

If I join a nondescript group, and they say “berserker gear” after the first boss (assuming that’s when they notice dps is lacking) and I say “I don’t have any.” or “I am not wearing it because i won’t survive” and do not switch, and they don’t kick me, and we continue the dungeon only to be kicked at the last boss as I worked with them to get there, you’re saying that’s justified? That’s not an unjust kicking?

Seriously colesy, what happened to you?

If we’re going to assume that we’ve heard the full story, we can agree that kicking someone at the very last boss purely to be malicious isn’t justified.

That being said, if you join a group and want to work against your team instead of for it, I don’t see why anyone would want to keep you around. Is it right to allow someone to stay in the dungeon until the last boss to kick you if you’re going to stubbornly do whatever you want? No, but does that mean when you join a group that you can do whatever in the world you want under the argument of “Hey it didn’t have X requirement in the lfg, I can do as I please. If you kick me for whatever reason, I’ll report you”?

When you join a dungeon, you’re contributing to a group effort. If you decide that you don’t like the direction that the group is taking, leave. Simple as that. If you don’t want to skip the trash mobs or stack in a corner for the old fgs meta, then that isn’t the group for you. You have every right to be upset that whoever listed the lfg didn’t put in 100% of their gameplan and requirements, but they also have the right to be upset that you didn’t decide to find a more suitable group after discovering that it wouldn’t be a good fit for you.

If you do join a group and discover that they’re practicing strategies that you don’t want to participate in, it’s on you to either adapt or leave. If you really hate that they want you to skip the cutscenes, then you can say “Hey, well I need to find another group for this then. It’d be great if you were more specific in your lfg listing next time” instead of saying “Well I don’t care what you want to do, I’m going to watch all the cutscenes anyway because your legally-binding lfg post didn’t specifically state to skip them and there’s nothing you can do”

Of course as soon as it became apparent that OP was not going to work with their team, they should have been kicked(instead of waiting until the end of the run). Of course the lfg should have said something to imply that they were going to attempt to get the run done as quickly as reasonably possible. Keeping someone in your group to kick them at the end isn’t justified, but neither is obstinately working against the group after they communicate with you.

^ Well put.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

Dusk excuse me while I cry myself a river about what you think.

And here I thought you, of all people, better than this. I’m sorry I said anything at all.

I’m not ^^

And yes, keep that morally superior aura as you blame a noobie in a story dungeon for not following norms.

it’s super leet.

I’m not sure I see anyone in this thread fervently defending kicking at the end. The only “contrary” opinion I’m seeing is that the kicking itself may not be unjustified.

And in defense of the “norm” that Dusk brought up, I’d say communication and being on the same page as the rest of your party should not be a wildly foreign concept to anyone, new or otherwise.

Without the other side of the story (and I highly suspect OP either met the absolute worst members of this community or OP is omitting some key details out of shame) I don’t see how taking either side of this issue is indefensible. Those who say it is are just making a kneejerk emotional appeal.

We are also not mentioning that it takes 3 people to kick 1 person from a 5 person party. 2 other people did not agree with OP’s actions as well.

Edit* As per spoj’s information, it does not take a majority vote to kick someone.

Ive been intentionally avoiding this topic for a while. Just thought id say i agree with Dusk and crackedmuffin on this. Both sides are in the wrong. The kicking at the end is an overly harsh and spiteful move to pull. Theres no real excuse for being like that. But the op ignoring a request in spite of his group mates wishes is grounds for a justified kick. Also we dont know if it really was the end or if it was the very next cutscene that he was kicked. We obviously only have the biased OP’s perspective of what really happened so yeah…

These sort of things can be avoided with basic social skills. Shame most people dont have any.

Tree.3916:

We are also not mentioning that it takes 3 people to kick 1 person from a 5 person party. 2 other people did not agree with OP’s actions as well.

I believe that patch note was incorrect. The fix never worked.

I really hope you get banned Forte. We only have your side of the story and I’m pretty sure that you stole three legendaries from me. But if you give them back we can forget about this. Also you must say that I’m your master.

Tree.3916:

We are also not mentioning that it takes 3 people to kick 1 person from a 5 person party. 2 other people did not agree with OP’s actions as well.

Not to nitpick, but just FYI — Unless they’ve “fixed” this again, it’s still just 2 votes to kick. There was a patch that said something about requiring 50% of the members to vote, but it was reverted within hours of going live (I think they ended up allowing 1 vote to kick in a 2 man party ). AFAIK, they haven’t touched the kick system since.

edit spoj is faster than me. Must be sploit’n.

CrAcKeDmUfFiN.9402:

Lilith Ajit.6173:

If I join a nondescript group, and they say “berserker gear” after the first boss (assuming that’s when they notice dps is lacking) and I say “I don’t have any.” or “I am not wearing it because i won’t survive” and do not switch, and they don’t kick me, and we continue the dungeon only to be kicked at the last boss as I worked with them to get there, you’re saying that’s justified? That’s not an unjust kicking?

Seriously colesy, what happened to you?

If we’re going to assume that we’ve heard the full story, we can agree that kicking someone at the very last boss purely to be malicious isn’t justified.

That being said, if you join a group and want to work against your team instead of for it, I don’t see why anyone would want to keep you around. Is it right to allow someone to stay in the dungeon until the last boss to kick you if you’re going to stubbornly do whatever you want? No, but does that mean when you join a group that you can do whatever in the world you want under the argument of “Hey it didn’t have X requirement in the lfg, I can do as I please. If you kick me for whatever reason, I’ll report you”?

When you join a dungeon, you’re contributing to a group effort. If you decide that you don’t like the direction that the group is taking, leave. Simple as that. If you don’t want to skip the trash mobs or stack in a corner for the old fgs meta, then that isn’t the group for you. You have every right to be upset that whoever listed the lfg didn’t put in 100% of their gameplan and requirements, but they also have the right to be upset that you didn’t decide to find a more suitable group after discovering that it wouldn’t be a good fit for you.

If you do join a group and discover that they’re practicing strategies that you don’t want to participate in, it’s on you to either adapt or leave. If you really hate that they want you to skip the cutscenes, then you can say “Hey, well I need to find another group for this then. It’d be great if you were more specific in your lfg listing next time” instead of saying “Well I don’t care what you want to do, I’m going to watch all the cutscenes anyway because your legally-binding lfg post didn’t specifically state to skip them and there’s nothing you can do”

Of course as soon as it became apparent that OP was not going to work with their team, they should have been kicked(instead of waiting until the end of the run). Of course the lfg should have said something to imply that they were going to attempt to get the run done as quickly as reasonably possible. Keeping someone in your group to kick them at the end isn’t justified, but neither is obstinately working against the group after they communicate with you.

I have nothing to argue with here, but we are talking about a new player. New players don’t know this stuff. we cannot be a welcoming community if some of these things become our norms for nondescript groups.

Here’s the deal: the players in OPs Group (so, let’s say 3 people at most)were probably not elite players. They probably weren’t in dnt (and I find it funny once I call out Nike the dnt folks swarm in to defend, must be a fun chatroom). These were probably normal pugs doing a story dungeon. Could have been their first, second, third time, maybe more if they make story dungeon running a habit. These players may (or may not) have put anything into their lfg. In fact, it isn’t actually clear that it was their lfg. It could have been OP. we don’t know.

A new player probably doesn’t have a lot of AP. I think it’s safe to say anyone looking at the party listing would say “this person probably hasn’t done much in terms of dunfeons, story or otherwise”. They could be wrong (we have alt accounts and whatnot that say it’s possible either is true). But once they said “we’ve never done this we would like to watch cutscenes” and there was no response from the party, I think I would have assumed as a new player that they shrugged it off. I don’t know about you, but just because one pug says they don’t want to do something in a certain way, doesn’t mean that that is the way the party is going to be from then on.

So the new player continues With the other cutscene watcher. They watch them, learn, enjoy, die, etc and contribute to the party with time and effort.

And then the 3 members kick them at the end to deny them rewards.

how can someone defend that? The OP gave us his side of the story, and it may or may not have happened that way. But people defend this. Right here.

It’s like… don’t you all remember how it feels to have your work destroyed becauae one or 2 people think what you’re doing is abnormal and therefore you ought to be punished? Has everyone had their hearts hardened?

I don’t get you people.

If I join a nondescript group, and they say “berserker gear” after the first boss (assuming that’s when they notice dps is lacking) and I say “I don’t have any.” or “I am not wearing it because i won’t survive” and do not switch, and they don’t kick me, and we CONTINUEthe dungeon only to be kicked at the last boss as I worked with them to get there, you’re saying that’s justified? That’s not an unjust kicking?
Seriously colesy, what happened to you?

I am saying the kick was justified but the actual timing of it just made it a scumbag move.

But the act itself – you as party leader kicking someone who doesn’t comply with your group’s wishes is perfectly acceptable.

To reiterate – kicking someone for not meeting your requirement is absolutely fine, waiting until the end of the instance to kick them is wrong. This is precisely what I am arguing about, I can understand people being up in arms about someone waiting until the end of the instance to kick you, but the fact that the OP flagrantly disregarded the request of the party leader is what makes it hard for me to feel sympathy for them. It’s like me teaching a dungeon path and some zergburger el33tist comes along demanding speed run, i’ll boot them without a second thought because they don’t meet my requirement (newbies only) and zero ****s will be given. If I wanted to run a story dungeon on LFG and someone was watching the cutscenes after I told them not to, I’d boot them as well.

I just wouldn’t wait until the end of the instance.

Where does the OP say he/she/it was a new player?

The fact that he/she/it and his/her/its friend took screenshots to “prove” this whole thing would actually suggest against them being new.

lordkrall.7241:

Where does the OP say he/she/it was a new player?

Here:

My friend and I were doing a dungeon, my first one at that….

lordkrall.7241:

The fact that he/she/it and his/her/its friend took screenshots to “prove” this whole thing would actually suggest against them being new.

How so?

maha.7902:

If I join a nondescript group, and they say “berserker gear” after the first boss (assuming that’s when they notice dps is lacking) and I say “I don’t have any.” or “I am not wearing it because i won’t survive” and do not switch, and they don’t kick me, and we CONTINUEthe dungeon only to be kicked at the last boss as I worked with them to get there, you’re saying that’s justified? That’s not an unjust kicking?
Seriously colesy, what happened to you?

I am saying the kick was justified but the actual timing of it just made it a scumbag move.

But the act itself – you as party leader kicking someone who doesn’t comply with your group’s wishes is perfectly acceptable.

To reiterate – kicking someone for not meeting your requirement is absolutely fine, waiting until the end of the instance to kick them is wrong.

Thanks for clearing that up.

maha.7902:

If I join a nondescript group, and they say “berserker gear” after the first boss (assuming that’s when they notice dps is lacking) and I say “I don’t have any.” or “I am not wearing it because i won’t survive” and do not switch, and they don’t kick me, and we CONTINUEthe dungeon only to be kicked at the last boss as I worked with them to get there, you’re saying that’s justified? That’s not an unjust kicking?
Seriously colesy, what happened to you?

I am saying the kick was justified but the actual timing of it just made it a scumbag move.

But the act itself – you as party leader kicking someone who doesn’t comply with your group’s wishes is perfectly acceptable.

To reiterate – kicking someone for not meeting your requirement is absolutely fine, waiting until the end of the instance to kick them is wrong.

^^ This I can 100% agree with.

So we’re on the same page then?

Group hug time?

C’mere, guis….

squeeze

I’ll hug colesy.

dlonie.6547:

Here:

My friend and I were doing a dungeon, my first one at that….

How so?

No.
They said it was their first dungeon. Not that they were new players. I had played for months before I joined my first dungeon run.

Because completely new players wouldn’t have the mind that something like that could happen, and thus wouldn’t bother taking screenshots, imo.

Lol, we don’t swoop in after Nike posts. What does happen is someone posts, then they link it in the chat box (it isn’t private anyone with an account can view it) and we then go read it and post on our own accord. I like your conspiracy theories though

Edit* added a comma :P

lordkrall.7241:

dlonie.6547:

Here:

My friend and I were doing a dungeon, my first one at that….

How so?

No.
They said it was their first dungeon. Not that they were new players. I had played for months before I joined my first dungeon run.

Because completely new players wouldn’t have the mind that something like that could happen, and thus wouldn’t bother taking screenshots, imo.

He said it was his first one, and his friend took the screens. I had friends when I was new. I have had new friends when I was a vet too.

Tree.3916:

Lol, we don’t swoop in after Nike posts. *What does happen is someone posts, then they link it in the chat box *and we then go read it and post on our own accord. I like your conspiracy theories though

Edit* added a comma :P

Hey cool that was my theory.

I’ve gotten some fun mailed screen caps of his pure disdain for me so now I take note.

Lilith Ajit.6173:

And then the 3 members kick them at the end to deny them rewards.

how can someone defend that? The OP gave us his side of the story, and it may or may not have happened that way. But people defend this. Right here.

No one said that it is okay to “kick them at the end to deny them rewards”. And yes we might be talking about a brand new player to the game, but that doesn’t mean they’re infants incapable of communication or adaptation. I do remember being a new player, vividly. I remember when someone explained simple dungeon terms to me and I remember pugging a lot of dungeons that didn’t go well.

One very simple thing that any individual can understand, regardless of skill or experience, is that there are four other members of your party that you need to work with in order to beat the encounter. It made no difference whether I was a day 1 player or a polished veteran, I was 20% of any given dungeon group. If my group decides to watch all the cutscenes, I have to deal with that. If my group wants to kill literally every single mob in the dungeon, that’s something I have to work with. If I don’t agree to the strategies the group uses, I need to leave that group. If my group sees that I am childishly going to do what I want at the expense of my group, they have every right to kick me.

The members of the group should have kicked OP and relisted as soon as it became very apparent that they were not team players. Instead, they decided to be vindictive by waiting until the end of the dungeon. OP should have decided to leave as soon as they saw that they had very different priorities as the other members of the group. Instead, they stayed and obstinately refused to adapt or work with their team.

Okay, fine. I agree with you, except there were 2 members of the party who were “not working with the party”.

Although I also disagree that watching a cutscene is actually detrimental to the party in the same way not following the leader, not stacking, or whatever else can actually harm your progress.

But muffin, I don’t disagree with 99% of what you said so, yeah.

I agree that watching cutscenes isn’t at the detriment of a group, and that it’s not really a great reason to kick someone. That’s also why I’d be interested to hear the other side of the story. It doesn’t really make sense to me to kick someone at the very end of a dungeon after all of the cutscenes have been watched. That time that OP spent watching the cutscenes was already gone, so there really wasn’t anything to be gained by kicking anyone at that point. I really only see two possibilities (neither of which I endorse, and both of which I’ve been subjected to personally)

1. They wanted to give the dungeon to a friend. Someone wanted story mode done on one of their toons or needed a reward track unlocked, so they kicked “those guys watching the cutscenes” to bring in a buddy or two. I’d imagine most people have run into this at one point or another, and its never a good feeling to have something you invested time in taken away from you for nothing.

2. They’re just crummy people who do crummy things for no real reason. They just wanted to bully someone or feel superior, so they found someone to pick on and did a mean thing to them. It happens, but its by no means the norm. This community is actually friendly and generally accepting, we really don’t need to worry about two bad apples in the grand scheme of things.

Theres another possibility. It might not have been right at the end. The OP said it was his first time so how does he know? He could of been kicked after watching another full cutscene and the group decided enough was enough.

Maybe they just didnt want to wait for the full final cutscene at the end boss. Its scummy but im struggling to genuinely sympathise with the OP.

Doesn’t most bosses in Story Mode also have a cutscene for that matter? Which would explain the kick.
They simply told him to skip, he refused, and when he yet again refused to do it they kicked him.

spoj.9672:

Theres another possibility. It might not have been right at the end. The OP said it was his first time so how does he know? He could of been kicked after watching another full cutscene and the group decided enough was enough. Maybe they just didnt want to wait for the full final cutscene at the end boss. Its scummy but im struggling to genuinely sympathise with the OP.

Friend may have told him it was the final boss, though if there are screencaps, does it mean they knew it was coming?

The plot thickens.

To clarify if you have spent enough time doing something you are immune to repercussions.

That the stance of the “dungeon community”?

I sorta laughed at the kickers being the only vindictive ones. Who is trying to get whom banned right now? Must be female. Isn’t it pretty much confirmed 4/5 are kittens? I mean if youre taking screenshots of chat for proof before you get kicked. I dunno chances are you know you are purposely doing something to kitten the other members of your group off?

Like my friend who steals friendly tanks when the drivers get out to repair who is surprised when he gets team killed.

Yeah Im heartless. I work l&d. If I had one I would have killed myself long ago.

DonQuack.9025:

The plot thickens.

To clarify if you have spent enough time doing something you are immune to repercussions.

That the stance of the “dungeon community”?

Just a part of it. No tolerance for “Bads”.

I think in fairness to these guys, they’re working on an entirely conceptual level, and I doubt any of them would actually take the action they’re so srtidently defending.

Although, more likely, they’re working in context of the other discussions of ‘kicking’ and are a bit too far down the rabbit hole and can’t differentiate anymore.

~~~~

Also, to the point (since it got missed). Yes there could be more sides to the story. Whatsisname is taking the OP’s story as Gospel and still saying the kick was totally defensible

At this point questioning the validity of the story isn’t important, we’re having a standard behavior set, which is that

Sufficiently experienced player/the dungeon owner is justified in kicking in just about any situation

This is such a terrible, unmutual standard of behavior it’s kind of mindboggling (although it makes me think of the time years back when someone else in DnT spent like an hour haranguing me about how stupid it was to have what she called ‘e-morals’ or to think about others when MMO gaming)

Windsagio.1340:

Yes there could be more sides to the story. Whatsisname is taking the OP’s story as Gospel and still saying the kick was totally defensible

Sorry, but who’s doing this again?

Just about everyone in this thread on the “other side” either: 1.) stopped short of assigning blame, merely suggesting “make your own group and specify watching cutscenes”, or 2.) said kicking was okay, but doing so at the last boss was extremely uncalled for.

The only people justifying the kick either question OP’s account that nothing else was exchanged, or his/her account that the kick happened at the last (rather than next) boss.

“The whole truth” and “nothing but the truth” are not always the same thing.

maha/colsey. To quote him,

But the act itself – you as party leader kicking someone who doesn’t comply with your group’s wishes is perfectly acceptable.
To reiterate – kicking someone for not meeting your requirement is absolutely fine, waiting until the end of the instance to kick them is wrong. This is precisely what I am arguing about, I can understand people being up in arms about someone waiting until the end of the instance to kick you, but the fact that the OP flagrantly disregarded the request of the party leader is what makes it hard for me to feel sympathy for them.

The other guys are just buddying up to their buddy, he’s explicitly saying that the “Party Leader” (obsolete term) ‘s wishes are paramount and he is justified in kicking people that don’t meet his wishes.

This is a selfish and egotistical way of acting, and abuses on this kind of attitude are part of the reason that they retired the concept of ‘dungeon owners’.

Basic social skill in MMO:

• Kick the next person whom you don’t like or whose idea you don’t agree with. If the majority is with you, you’re just.

Also,

The popular brand of table salt in Canada is Windsor. On sale for $2 per kg.

Iris Ng.9845:

The popular brand of table salt in Canada is Windsor. On sale for $2 per kg.

I’ve got me some good ol’ Morton’s on these here potatoes.
:D

Windsagio.1340:

maha/colsey. To quote him,

But the act itself – you as party leader kicking someone who doesn’t comply with your group’s wishes is perfectly acceptable.
To reiterate – kicking someone for not meeting your requirement is absolutely fine, waiting until the end of the instance to kick them is wrong. This is precisely what I am arguing about, I can understand people being up in arms about someone waiting until the end of the instance to kick you, but the fact that the OP flagrantly disregarded the request of the party leader is what makes it hard for me to feel sympathy for them.

The other guys are just buddying up to their buddy, he’s explicitly saying that the “Party Leader” (obsolete term) ‘s wishes are paramount and he is justified in kicking people that don’t meet his wishes.

This is a selfish and egotistical way of acting, and abuses on this kind of attitude are part of the reason that they retired the concept of ‘dungeon owners’.

I don’t see how colesy took OP’s account as gospel at all. He simply addressed the parts that were posted (party “leader” asked us to not watch cutscenes, we did not comply, we were kicked at the end).

The very fact that he sought to clarify his position with others, and examine the circumstance of being kicked right away or at the end seems to indicate he is posting about the general issue rather than the specific.

If you want to argue that kicking for this kind of thing is 100% always indefensible and that there is no valid application of majority rules or seniority in the party, you will be more or less fighting the battle as a significant minority. Not saying that your position is wrong, but that there was near unanimous approval (at least acceptance) of colesy’s position after he clarified it.

Is it elitist? Probably. Is it indefensible? Probably not, because not everyone has the same moral framework, or even agrees to prioritize morality over everything else in an online video game.