Guild Wars 2

Here’s the dev post outright stating skipping Kholer isn’t an exploit, for those who absolutely need some kind of proof.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/How-logn-until-the-Lt-exploit-is-fixed-in-AC-explorable/477887

For me, it was hard to appreciate the lower levels until I tried it myself.

On my first char (Guardian) I didn’t even enter a dungeon until 80. After 2k or so worth of tokens from AC explorable I wanted to see what it would be like to try out a 35 warrior in there – so I did just that, went full masterwork power+precision gear and the usual 5 signet build I see 80% of the warriors I pug with there – I can see why it’s so attractive, I get 100% critical rate.. at 35.

Anyway, I find a PUG of 4 80s and immediately someone says “are we sure we want to take this guy?” – I figured to give them I break I mentioned I could just bring my 80 Guardian instead but silence ensues and I start to wonder if level 35’s really do suck that much. People enter, and we meet the first breeder and I’m hitting him for ridiculous amounts of damage and 5k hundred blades, and suddenly I’m no longer worried (my Guardian struggles to get the kind of damage my 35 warrior was putting out). I imagine 80 warriors more traits and exotic gear would do more but it didn’t seem that way with this group.

Get to first burrow and I notice the other warrior in the group just sits there and spams hundred blades… missing every time. I figured it was just a one time thing until we got to the burrow event and he did it there too – I was doing more damage then the rest of the group. Of course, the event fails, and after the second time I got kicked.

I’ve really come to find that in practice there isn’t much difference with the downscaling even with traits and such. I’ve come to welcome low levels more in groups, though I may ask what kind of gear they are wearing, since masterwork and even rare gear are reasonably priced. Runs never really feel that much slower, but then again I’m pugging dungeons, so who knows.

‘I’m hitting him for ridiculous amounts of damage and 5k hundred blades, and suddenly I’m no longer worried (my Guardian struggles to get the kind of damage my 35 warrior was putting o.’

Not sure what your guardian’s running if 5k hundred blades outdoes it. It would make sense if you were full support with like.. a staff? I might also add that DPS is not the whole picture in a dungeon, sure you can do 5k hundred blades all you like, but when your team is dead around you due to lack of support it doesn’t matter.

Also that doesn’t much change my opinion about taking lowbies in there because:
1.) I hardly ever find them in rare crafted sets, usually they are in kitten gear and wont say anything till they are in and doing kitten all.
2.) I took my level 35 Mesmer in with the full crafted set/accessories and weapons and let me tell you, it’s completely useless. Class at that level also matters, you went in with a Warrior. Warriors are one of the highest preferred classes in dungeons for a reason, especially in Arah.

3.) For those who say gear/class/traits doesn’t matter: Imagine now that you are doing Arah, and a ranger joins your group, he has no traits, is wearing blue gear and has a pig for a pet. Is he going to be making the same contribution to the group as a warrior in a rare/exotic crafted set? No. And it’s no different at lower levels either. 80’s get scaled down, but lvl 35’s do NOT get scaled up. A level 80 in exotics will get scaled down to a % of their gear and still have access to a full trait setup, a level 35 has access to whatever they have at the time and that’s it. They don’t get scaled up. Give it a go, get a group together of all level 35’s and all wear blue gear, see how far you get on path 3 of AC and how long it takes.

I’m not against taking lowbies, im just against taking them in regards to thier gear, traits and class.
Full crafted set? Fine, you can come. But to say that you somehow do the same/better than a lvl 80 in exotics with full traits? That lvl 80 must be terrible.

@swiftpaw: will you settle for around lvl 45s doing your example? Maybe in white gear to be equal. Leveling another char to 35 to prove that you’re wrong will take some time.

It’s true that some professions work better in certain dungeons than others, but that is not related to lvl. You gain no noticeable difference if people know how to play. I never understood what’s the deal with path 3, it’s easier than 2 for me atleast.

The group you were in probably wanted to run the dungeon really fast. Though level scaling works to a degree it doesn’t completely eliminate the advantages of being max level fully traited with exotic gear. I had a regular AC run a few days ago with a 36 and a 54. They could not stay in melee range of the spider queen or even take hits from the poison barrage (whereas I and a couple friends who were 80 could). The aetheric collectors where you have to kill burrows really fast (where [low] people only want to run it with high dps characters because otherwise they can’t finish that path {3 I think?} ). Full 80 team (we were not all high dps characters btw) we were ahead of all the spawns and it was a walk in the park (helped that a friend in the party knew the spawn locations and order). Compare that to all the tactics you had to use when you were just a fresh 35 trying to do AC path 3.

So in your opinion:

-gear doesn t matter
-profession doesn t matter (much)
-level doesn t matter

Despite math says the opposite…….

If what you say is true then you could almost run solo dungeons without equip after all the third attribute is meaningless, armor is meaningless, HP are meaningless you can avoid any hit …….

We, the normal skilled players, cannot…and for us the boost given by lvl/profession/equip is more than noticeable….

Its not a good excuse to leave PuG out of dungeons tbut at least a reason to get some good equipped/leveled playesr in the party.

I’ve played AC Explorable on my Engineer since level 31 and managed absolutely fine (I have a level 80 Mesmer) however the difference between AC and CM is enormous. As a level 40 in CM I was being steam rolled during the explorable to the point where I was dead more times than alive.

The way downscaling works is not helping this situation. Put a level 60 and a level 70 character in the same green gear and they will scale down to the same stats. But if one of them switches to rare equip, he will have higher stats. This leads to the snobbery of demanding level80 characters with exotics only. No matter how inappropriate the stats of the exotic are for the particular dungeon.

swiftpaw.6397:

2.) I took my level 35 Mesmer in with the full crafted set/accessories and weapons and let me tell you, it’s completely useless. Class at that level also matters, you went in with a Warrior. Warriors are one of the highest preferred classes in dungeons for a reason, especially in Arah.

I’m sorry but you base your opinion on your experience with a lvl 35 Mesmer? I play a Mesmer, They are the hardest profession to master in a dungeon. They are squishy and do mediocre damage until fully traited/geared and you have to know your profession inside out to do the best damage and survive. You can’t compare a lvl 35 Mesmer with any of the other professions in that context.

Mesmers are well known to be OP in PvP but terribly fidgety in PvE (Thus why many people would like to see a split of skills). I personally no longer have a problem with it (unless they keep nerfing our abilities even further). Mostly because I know my profession so well now and have done all the dungeons.

That said, this does not mean that a lvl35 Mesmer can’t do well, Mesmer’s have many useful tricks up their sleeves and it’s all about adjusting to encounters before you enter them. I bring along all weapons I can use (which are a lot) and I often swap utility skills and sometimes even traits. There’s no reason why a lvl 35 couldn’t do as well as a lvl 80 even without perfect gear, but for a Mesmer it will be A LOT harder to make up for that difference.

Mesmers are the only exception in this though, the other professions do just fine without the skill and advanced profession understanding requirement at that level.

I remember clearly that the first few weeks of the game. People we’re specifically denying dungeon access to Mesmers because so many were doing terrible with it, not understanding the profession. You really have to take the time to sit and try out all your abilities and understand when to use them correctly as a Mesmer.

You just compared the hardest profession for dungeons with one of the easiest, I don’t think it’s a very fair excuse to not bring lower levels with in dungeons. Especially not if you have at least two lvl 80’s in there or someone who knows what they’re doing.

As for gear these things make such a minor difference, I’ve seen many lvl 80’s in full exotic get downed and make mistakes. The only difference is HP goes down faster on mobs which is what it all comes down to. Selfish convenience (Unless of course there are good reasons behind it like lack of time due to real life commitments, there is no real good reason for it otherwise).

Again it’s also not fair to prejudice before you seen the person in action. Anyone can do great in that setting. I’ve seen so myself, regardless of profession, level, or the perfect gear.

It’s all just elitist nitpicking and the selfishness in general of this topic… I guess it shows that it has nothing to do with the MMO you play but with humanity in general.

Me personally, I will continue to invite people who are of recommended level, of any profession. Everyone is welcome with me as far as I’m concerned as long as they don’t continuously mess things up, disregarding advice or generally have a bad attitude (I do tend to go with guild groups first but they are my priority being guild leader and all).

Just don’t PuG anymore.

Only do that with guildies.
And, if your guild is too small, join another guild.

Or stop complaining if you’re kicked, because you accepted the terms when you asked “LFG Dungeon”.

I never pugged a single dungeon till game start. If there aren’t enough people in guild, i usually go Farm, or do sPvP or WvW.

My bad experiences with PUGs in WoW start happening (to you, in this case) even in this game, so i don’t regret that choice.

Me personally, I will continue to invite people who are of recommended level, of any profession. Everyone is welcome with me as far as I’m concerned as long as they don’t continuously mess things up, disregarding advice or generally have a bad attitude (I do tend to go with guild groups first but they are my priority being guild leader and all).

Nice to see we still have players with the same mindset as mine. Let’s go for a run together sometimes?

So far I have 3 toons that are 50 plus, 1 is 48 and 2 near 30 (I purchased another slot) and I haven’t run any instances yet and it is attitudes like this that make me not to bother.

I have thought of trying to do AC or maybe CM but not sure it’s worth it. I guess maybe at least doing the story modes would at least give me an idea but if their are elitists around then have fun in other ways.

I can understand people might want to do something before they go to work and don’t have much time so want a certain level and do speed runs but I guess as as long as they make it clear what they want when asking it is fine. When your just asking in general for a group and don’t specify you only want lvl 80 to run with then you have problems.

Ultimately some of us aren’t as skilled as others and take things a bit more slowly and need to learn the ropes a bit and some people are willing to run people through dungeons to help then learn and some just want to do speed runs.

When I was in EQ2 I would only run with guild and then ventured out to doing PUGs and made some awesome friends doing it. IT is also a great way t socialise and meet people and have fun and that is what we all ultimately want to do.. have fun.

Ok enjoy yourselves everyone and relax

Fay.2735:

swiftpaw.6397:

2.) I took my level 35 Mesmer in with the full crafted set/accessories and weapons and let me tell you, it’s completely useless. Class at that level also matters, you went in with a Warrior. Warriors are one of the highest preferred classes in dungeons for a reason, especially in Arah.

I’m sorry but you base your opinion on your experience with a lvl 35 Mesmer? I play a Mesmer, They are the hardest profession to master in a dungeon. They are squishy and do mediocre damage until fully traited/geared and you have to know your profession inside out to do the best damage and survive. You can’t compare a lvl 35 Mesmer with any of the other professions in that context.

Mesmers are well known to be OP in PvP but terribly fidgety in PvE (Thus why many people would like to see a split of skills). I personally no longer have a problem with it (unless they keep nerfing our abilities even further). Mostly because I know my profession so well now and have done all the dungeons.
…

That said, this does not mean that a lvl35 Mesmer can’t do well, Mesmer’s have many useful tricks up their sleeves and it’s all about adjusting to encounters before you enter them. I bring along all weapons I can use (which are a lot) and I often swap utility skills and sometimes even traits. There’s no reason why a lvl 35 couldn’t do as well as a lvl 80 even without perfect gear, but for a Mesmer it will be A LOT harder to make up for that difference.

You just compared the hardest profession for dungeons with one of the easiest, I don’t think it’s a very fair excuse to not bring lower levels with in dungeons. Especially not if you have at least two lvl 80’s in there or someone who knows what they’re doing.

Class at that level also matters, You missed the key part of that sentence.

Yes, I DID just compare one of the hardest professions in a dungeon with one of the easiest. Because it DOES matter. You just helped prove my point, thankyou.

Lv52 for AC exp is not too low; unless everybody in party is lv50-ish and you are doing path 3, which gives them no right to kick you anyway.

I generally dislike forming an opinion on player’s competency purely based on their character level, but I’ll play the devil’s advocate a bit and analyze why people dislike having lower level party members in a dungeon.

1. The path can be difficult, and a low level character may imply that the player is inexperienced, undergeared, or both.
2. Perceived fairness. A high level character does offers better dps and better survivability, and having a low level who’s perceived to be less “useful” in these regards makes it unfair for the rest of the party.

My solutions:

1. Low level (in fact, everyone in party) characters should not be undergeared when attempting dungeons, period. If you’re lv80 please come with at least Rare, and lower level at least Masterwork stuff. State your experience with the dungeon beforehand. If you’re new to the dungeon, please show that you are willing to learn, and if you’re experienced, please show that you’re willing to teach.
2. It may or may not matter. Four lv80 characters and a lv50 char is perfectly fine in AC. If you don’t think the party composition will work out, explaining your reasoning to your party without being rude. Low level character should accept the fact that some dungeons are much better run with a group of lv80.

All boil down to one thing: mind your manner and try to fill the other person’s shoes.

I’m used to it, but mine is not about the level, its about being the certain “not dps not tank profession.” I block those LFM leaders as if they don’t even exist because I don’t even wish to be in the same group ever again. I can always meet with new smart nice people anyway.
However as for myself, I would wait til around level 60 to start doing dungeons. Gear up a little nicer wouldn’t hurt. Those dungeon gears require lvl 80 anyway.
Dungeon mobs are really hideous when I first encounter them, so I actually wait until lvl 70 to do my second dungeon run.

I first tried AC Exp, path 2, at level 40. I was one of these guys that people are ripping on in earlier posts….all of my gear was found, some of it under my current level by quite a lot. I didn’t know enough to keep an eye on red circles, or watch the LT for his instant kill spin. I got kicked around in that dungeon like a football. Seriously. I was kittened in my kitten until I bled from my kitten. I typed kitten all 3 times there.

And to be frank, you could hardly blame me. Until that point it didn’t matter what gear I had, stuff still died quickly. Red circles were always more of an annoyance than a threat. One hit deaths? Only from the ground when I mistimed a jump.

AC was a very harsh wake up call. But wake up I did. I went and bought up to date gear, and after one more go at path 2, I had dodging and avoiding being mobbed pretty much down. Leveled up to 50 on AC, all paths, and very rarely died. Partied with a few level 80s, on their first time, and some (not all) dropped like flies.

So, do some low levels have bad gear and no skills? Well, sure, I was one of them like I said. But all that it took to fix it? Less than 60 silver and less than an hour of playtime.

Experience and skill > level.

I have began to notice a bit of dungeon intolerance myself. Certainly, being level 80 in AC makes it easier. Sure your level get’s scaled down to 35 but you still have the trait bonuses and you gear will still give you an advantage. But it is not necessary. However, I am seeing more and more “LFM <insert low level dungeon> level 80 only” or “LFM <insert dungeon> experience players only”.

It’s a patience thing. To get full dungeon armour you need almost 1500 tokens. That’s a lot of runs. I imagine when you are running the same dungeon and paths over and over and over again, you lose the patience to deal with 1. newbies to the dungeons, 2. characters who are likely not going to find the whole thing as much of a cake-walk as a level 80 in full rares if not exotics. My advice is to just avoid this type of impatient people/people who have just run out of patience due to repetitiveness.

Just to add some fire to the discussion. Tonight I did a AC run (path 2) with my guild. Our team consisted of 3 lvl 80, 1 lvl 57 and 1 lvl 44 (me). 2 people had never done AC befor, one lvl 80 and the lvl 57.

We had no problem getting past the spiders and in the second part we even had to kill the champion breeder ourselves (not using the traps) because ot bugged out.

We skipped Kholer and killed all the mobs. However because someone had accidently triggered the Kholer fight we could not start the fight in the final zone.

So we decided to finish him off first and we did just that but the problem was not solved so we could not start the last fight.

We did all the above in about 40 minutes and because we thought it would be funny we did it naked. Nobody was wearing any form of armor. We all figured we would get our kitten kicked but actually, it went exceptionally smooth.

I do understand that people who want to run dungeons in 25 minutes or less think its better to have lvl 80 but in my opinion this is absolutely no requirement. Arena net designed these dungeons for lvl 35 players and thye are perfectly achievable with just that.

I think the “delevel” feature is working halfway and it needs put a 80 character to the same capability of a 35 character, when in a lv 35 area. This does not happens and it comes the “level check” on groups. Plain simple.

swiftpaw.6397:

Class at that level also matters, You missed the key part of that sentence.

Yes, I DID just compare one of the hardest professions in a dungeon with one of the easiest. Because it DOES matter. You just helped prove my point, thankyou.

I don’t see how I helped proof your point. What I was saying is that you compared the hardest profession with the easiest but that that doesn’t mean that a lvl 35 Mesmer couldn’t perform well.

I was making the point of saying that you may need to learn to play your Mesmer more thoroughly as they have a more advanced profession understanding requirement than most other professions and that this might be why you found it so difficult rather than it being an issue of gear/level.

You used Arah for example, Well none of us were fully exotic geared when we did it. Some of my gear wasn’t even level 80. A guy in my team was even in worst gear. Yet we still did all 4 paths in 2 days time, first time completing them.

I’m reinforcing that it’s the player and the team that makes the difference not the gear, not the level, not the profession. Sure go ahead and don’t take lowbies with because of their gear which I feel is a weak excuse because it really is about how good the player is.

A few extra points in power or precision or whatever stat isn’t going to make the player good. I’ve seen some really bad level 80’s who are geared do terrible at lower level dungeons while I seen lower levels without perfect gear do 10 times better.

Like I said the whole ‘You must have this gear and this level’ is so nit picky and a selfish attitude. I’m not saying it doesn’t make a slight difference I’m just saying a slight difference isn’t enough of an excuse to act elitist and deny access to people who want to enjoy dungeons but get kicked out because of this attitude. It’s simply rude.

You wouldn’t deny access to your house party to anyone who doesn’t bring cake just because cake is nicer. Because the person who doesn’t bring the cake might contribute greatly to the party by being chatty and fun (Strange metaphor I know but cake is tasty!).

Psybunny.8906:

Nice to see we still have players with the same mindset as mine. Let’s go for a run together sometimes?

Feel free to add me in game

If i got kicked because my level was ‘too low’, I’d question the abilities of the players in the group I was kicked from, not my own abilities. Sure, having 80’s makes it faster and easier, but If you specifically look for this, I’m just inclined to think you NEED 80’s to even complete a dungeon.

ive experienced this so called elitism, specially when Anet added the Karma rewards in dungeons

Fay.2735:

swiftpaw.6397:

Class at that level also matters, You missed the key part of that sentence.

Yes, I DID just compare one of the hardest professions in a dungeon with one of the easiest. Because it DOES matter. You just helped prove my point, thankyou.

I don’t see how I helped proof your point. What I was saying is that you compared the hardest profession with the easiest but that that doesn’t mean that a lvl 35 Mesmer couldn’t perform well.

I was making the point of saying that you may need to learn to play your Mesmer more thoroughly as they have a more advanced profession understanding requirement than most other professions and that this might be why you found it so difficult rather than it being an issue of gear/level.

You used Arah for example, Well none of us were fully exotic geared when we did it. Some of my gear wasn’t even level 80. A guy in my team was even in worst gear. Yet we still did all 4 paths in 2 days time, first time completing them.

I’m reinforcing that it’s the player and the team that makes the difference not the gear, not the level, not the profession. Sure go ahead and don’t take lowbies with because of their gear which I feel is a weak excuse because it really is about how good the player is.

A few extra points in power or precision or whatever stat isn’t going to make the player good. I’ve seen some really bad level 80’s who are geared do terrible at lower level dungeons while I seen lower levels without perfect gear do 10 times better.

Like I said the whole ‘You must have this gear and this level’ is so nit picky and a selfish attitude. I’m not saying it doesn’t make a slight difference I’m just saying a slight difference isn’t enough of an excuse to act elitist and deny access to people who want to enjoy dungeons but get kicked out because of this attitude. It’s simply rude.

You wouldn’t deny access to your house party to anyone who doesn’t bring cake just because cake is nicer. Because the person who doesn’t bring the cake might contribute greatly to the party by being chatty and fun (Strange metaphor I know but cake is tasty!).

Psybunny.8906:

Nice to see we still have players with the same mindset as mine. Let’s go for a run together sometimes?

Feel free to add me in game

Once again completely missing the point, I’m not saying you CANT do the instance, I’m saying it’s not going to go as smoothly and so it makes sense for people to only take lvl 80’s if they are pressed for time. I am simply stating that there IS a difference, no matter how much you want there not to be. You play mesmer? Good for you. If a level 35 mesmer in full rares and a lvl 35 warrior in full rares both applied for my AC group which one would I take? The warrior. Hands down. That’s just how it is. If just the mesmer applied, I would still take them, but they will not be as effective at that level as a warrior. Nothing to do with HOW you play your class, at level 35, the Warrior is going to be of more use due to thier class support and DPS output.

Same thing for Arah, You got it done, good for you, no-ones taking that away from you buddy. But I assure you if your team was in full exotics you would have done it faster/more efficiently.

I’m not going to know who’s ‘better at playing thier class’ when I’m pugging people am I? Am I telepathic? No, So I’m going to take the person who’s class is more likely to be played properly. Same goes for level, I’m sure you’ve seen lower levels play their class better than people of a higher level, but is this common? No. And even if they are bad, their extra traits and gear will usually compensate. Call me an elitist all you like, but I’m getting my dungeons done and I will make logical choices to be more efficient.

So…I just want to put this out there..

I think I’m the only one you need for dungeon party with me, idc whatever you wear (I hate looking at links) as long as you are at least recommended lvl, listen to advice if you are new—and I will guide you through! I run 8pm-10pm est. Add me as a friend and whisp me around that time (usually farming cursed shore otherwise). I personally think following directions is the most beneficial for a dungeon with me, I usually can take care of the rest for you guys—Guardian at your service.

Sanctum of Rall
Sky Avalon

Fay.2735:

I’m reinforcing that it’s the player and the team that makes the difference not the gear, not the level, not the profession. Sure go ahead and don’t take lowbies with because of their gear which I feel is a weak excuse because it really is about how good the player is.

A few extra points in power or precision or whatever stat isn’t going to make the player good. I’ve seen some really bad level 80’s who are geared do terrible at lower level dungeons while I seen lower levels without perfect gear do 10 times better.

Like I said the whole ‘You must have this gear and this level’ is so nit picky and a selfish attitude. I’m not saying it doesn’t make a slight difference I’m just saying a slight difference isn’t enough of an excuse to act elitist and deny access to people who want to enjoy dungeons but get kicked out because of this attitude. It’s simply rude.

You wouldn’t deny access to your house party to anyone who doesn’t bring cake just because cake is nicer. Because the person who doesn’t bring the cake might contribute greatly to the party by being chatty and fun (Strange metaphor I know but cake is tasty!).

I am totally with you. People think too much in terms of gears and levels when it is all about experience. I mean, obviously if you are level 50 and still wearing stuff from level 30, that’s not appropriate for dungeons. But if you are level 50 and your gear is 45+ for blues or 40+ for greens, you should be okay. After that it is all about experience and knowing what works and what doesn’t. People aren’t going to get experience if you don’t take them alone with you!

I maintain that anyone who demands people be level 80 and also adds utterly ridiculous caveats that they be in full exotic is not worth grouping with.

swiftpaw.6397:

Once again completely missing the point, I’m not saying you CANT do the instance, I’m saying it’s not going to go as smoothly and so it makes sense for people to only take lvl 80’s if they are pressed for time. I am simply stating that there IS a difference, no matter how much you want there not to be. You play mesmer? Good for you. If a level 35 mesmer in full rares and a lvl 35 warrior in full rares both applied for my AC group which one would I take? The warrior. Hands down. That’s just how it is. If just the mesmer applied, I would still take them, but they will not be as effective at that level as a warrior. Nothing to do with HOW you play your class, at level 35, the Warrior is going to be of more use due to thier class support and DPS output.

Same thing for Arah, You got it done, good for you, no-ones taking that away from you buddy. But I assure you if your team was in full exotics you would have done it faster/more efficiently.

I’m not going to know who’s ‘better at playing thier class’ when I’m pugging people am I? Am I telepathic? No, So I’m going to take the person who’s class is more likely to be played properly. Same goes for level, I’m sure you’ve seen lower levels play their class better than people of a higher level, but is this common? No. And even if they are bad, their extra traits and gear will usually compensate. Call me an elitist all you like, but I’m getting my dungeons done and I will make logical choices to be more efficient.

Your attitude speaks volumes and completely proofs the issue that this entire topic is about. People with your attitude.

Luckily I see some people in this topic who are kind and helpful to the people in their community and hope to run into some of you while I do dungeons. I much prefer playing with nice and fun people. Makes the game far more enjoyable

As for ways to combat the issue of people with this bad attitude all I can suggest is what I said before, Keep a list of peoples names, take note of their contact info and avoid the bad ones like the plague. I’m fortunate to have a guild full of lovely people who love dungeons so I don’t really run into the problem of such people on a regular basis.

It might help if you are lower level is to go to Lion’s arch and specifically ask for people who haven’t done the dungeon before or who are of lower level. You’re more likely to run into like minded people that way.

Fay.2735:

swiftpaw.6397:

Once again completely missing the point, I’m not saying you CANT do the instance, I’m saying it’s not going to go as smoothly and so it makes sense for people to only take lvl 80’s if they are pressed for time. I am simply stating that there IS a difference, no matter how much you want there not to be. You play mesmer? Good for you. If a level 35 mesmer in full rares and a lvl 35 warrior in full rares both applied for my AC group which one would I take? The warrior. Hands down. That’s just how it is. If just the mesmer applied, I would still take them, but they will not be as effective at that level as a warrior. Nothing to do with HOW you play your class, at level 35, the Warrior is going to be of more use due to thier class support and DPS output.

Same thing for Arah, You got it done, good for you, no-ones taking that away from you buddy. But I assure you if your team was in full exotics you would have done it faster/more efficiently.

I’m not going to know who’s ‘better at playing thier class’ when I’m pugging people am I? Am I telepathic? No, So I’m going to take the person who’s class is more likely to be played properly. Same goes for level, I’m sure you’ve seen lower levels play their class better than people of a higher level, but is this common? No. And even if they are bad, their extra traits and gear will usually compensate. Call me an elitist all you like, but I’m getting my dungeons done and I will make logical choices to be more efficient.

Your attitude speaks volumes and completely proofs the issue that this entire topic is about. People with your attitude.

Luckily I see some people in this topic who are kind and helpful to the people in their community and hope to run into some of you while I do dungeons. I much prefer playing with nice and fun people. Makes the game far more enjoyable

As for ways to combat the issue of people with this bad attitude all I can suggest is what I said before, Keep a list of peoples names, take note of their contact info and avoid the bad ones like the plague. I’m fortunate to have a guild full of lovely people who love dungeons so I don’t really run into the problem of such people on a regular basis.

It might help if you are lower level is to go to Lion’s arch and specifically ask for people who haven’t done the dungeon before or who are of lower level. You’re more likely to run into like minded people that way.

*sigh * call it bad attitude all you like, I have illness that restricts the time I can play the game and be in a dungeon and so I have to choose the people I pug with in a logical manner. You can kitten and whine about how it’s unfair all you like but that’s how the game is, you cant change facts. I still take lowbies. So long as they have gear on them. I still take mesmers so long as they have gear on them. I still take people with bad gear, so long as I KNOW them. What I will NOT do is take a random person who I do not know who is in crap gear on a class that is harder to play than others. I am not telepathic, and when I am pressed for time, I will keep to probabilities. All I see from you is someone who hates anyone who has any criteria for who they take, no matter how much sense it makes.

i welcome people of any level. even if they don’t do well(which is not going to be just because of their level) they have a chance to gain experience.

the very worst thing to have in your party is someone who leveled to 80 solo and never did a dungeon before then, just like in any other mmo.

swiftpaw.6397:

*sigh * call it bad attitude all you like, I have illness that restricts the time I can play the game and be in a dungeon and so I have to choose the people I pug with in a logical manner. You can kitten and whine about how it’s unfair all you like but that’s how the game is, you cant change facts. I still take lowbies. So long as they have gear on them. I still take mesmers so long as they have gear on them. I still take people with bad gear, so long as I KNOW them. What I will NOT do is take a random person who I do not know who is in crap gear on a class that is harder to play than others. I am not telepathic, and when I am pressed for time, I will keep to probabilities. All I see from you is someone who hates anyone who has any criteria for who they take, no matter how much sense it makes.

I don’t hate anyone and it’s your choice what you do with your time and it’s good you do not exclude people entirely. I also understand you have time restrictions and reasoning for it.

My problem is that that’s the exception, most people who demand level 80’s and perfect gear are doing it purely to be elitist and selfish. This doesn’t help the community. I keep hearing of people being kicked out of the groups for such reasons and I think it’s incredibly rude. I feel bad for these people and think it’s unfair to them.

I can understand your reasoning for why you in specific do it but I can’t support it being encouraged as if it’s normal and okay to always do as a general rule. It’s happening so much now for no good reason and it shouldn’t be encouraged for that reason.

I’m not trying to offend you I’m just trying to show that there are still many people in the community who would not exclude people for any of those reasons. That there are people who are level 80 etc. who frown on people who have this attitude. So that people don’t get discouraged from doing dungeons but rather need to find the right people.

You’re a minority in regards to why you prioritise. But encouraging this behaviour isn’t helping these people who keep getting kicked from groups if you know what I mean? It’s just supporting this attitude. I’m just concerned if it get’s encouraged too much it becomes the norm and I don’t want to see this community become more and more like other MMO’s.

@Fay
If really so many people get kicked from groups just cause they are not 80 they should easily be able to form a group themselves.

I don’t do explore mode with players below 80 unless I know them and therefor am sure that they know what they are doing.

I really don’t think Swift should get grief for preferring to take 80’s. He’s just being honest and the system does have a minor favoring towards 80’s, if you don’t know the person you’re inviting to your group. Especially on something like AC path 3, there’s a pretty hardcore DPS check early on that can stall a group that isn’t well geared.

One nice thing is if you’re having problems with this you can always hunt down a good dungeon running guild and switch servers to sync up with them. Running a dungeon with vent/teamspeak/mumble with people that can organize for any given dungeon is going to be superior to a PUG any day.

Bellatrix.5402:

On my first char (Guardian) I didn’t even enter a dungeon until 80. After 2k or so worth of tokens from AC explorable I wanted to see what it would be like to try out a 35 warrior in there – so I did just that, went full masterwork power+precision gear and the usual 5 signet build I see 80% of the warriors I pug with there – I can see why it’s so attractive, I get 100% critical rate.. at 35.

And I think you just prove it yourself why the lvl 80 group prefer to kick the lowbie, because your post is a fine desmonstration of what people call “the lack of experience”.

Most people who run dungeon regularly know that it’s never about you or your number, it’s always about the party. And the people who only look at his own output and believe he’s good is the last person you want to bring in a serious dungeon run. I cringe every time I see a War running dungeon with 5 signet and boast about their number, because it’s the most self-centered and useless spec in a dungeon. Concidentally most of these 5 signet wars also run with a rifle.

For example I had a run with the guildie a while back. Both me and him were on our War. And through out the entire run he’s been bragging about how awesome it is to have a periodic 25 stack of might burst damage, and he kept bragging about it throughout the entire dungeon despite me giving him hint it’s not that great. After we downed the last boss and he concluded “Yep 25 stack of might is good lol”. I told the group to wait and ask him to come to me:

I pull out my bow, drop a firefield, do a stomp, drop a banner and the #3 bow attack. The entire party instantly get 9 stacks of might. I asked one of the Guardian in our group to pull out his hammer and spam him Blash finisher, and we kept a ~20 stack of might on our party. So I asked him: between just giving yourself 25 stack of might periodically, and giving your entire party a 20 stack full time, which one you think are better? Do the math.

Not to mention your signet give next to zil support for the party and protect yourself. With the dungeon and HP most encounter GW2, a little extra burst here and there mean very little in the long run. Dungeon is more about a situation setup, support, and your “oh kitten” button. For example AC spefically, if a 5 signet war got pinned down by a scaveling, he will die, period since you have no way to get back up unless someone in the party interupt them. But if you have a stun breaker, you can immidiately get up and roll away when you get pinched. The more uptime you have, the better your DPS, and the less DPS waste by your party to get you up. A warrior’s Battle Standard is the ultimate wipe saver when thing go sour, and it’s infitenely better then the +Might/Swift/Crit the signet give you.

As mentioned above these 5 signets warriors also usually run with a rifle. They get high damage at range. Yesterday I ran with another 5 signet warrior and predictable enough, he also pull out a rifle on every boss fight with the reason “so I don’t die too quickly”. What people don’t realize is that melee make the fight much more controllable. Take Kholer for example, if you have 3 good melee wailing on him, you will notice that he will do his pull->Whirlwind much less often, since concentrated melee can keep the boss stagger and give him little room to attack, as opposes to a group with full range where he can do his whirlwind as often as every 10-12 seconds.

Just go by the number a lot of “pug” believe they’re an awesome player, but experience dungeon understand group synergy is what count. I wouldn’t say I would kick someone like you once you’re in the party, but I wouldn’t say I would be thrilled to run with you again. Unless you listen of course.

@ Don Quack:
Everyone needs that attitude!!

I leveled my mesmer all the way from 35-65 in AC (a few runs of CM as well), and while i never personally had this problem, I still always prefaced my join with "this is my second char, I’m wearing 35 rare (seriously, who was like “level 35 greens aren’t real??” what game are you playing?), and here are my 500+ tokens," if i noticed i was the only sub-80 in the group. I know from experience that i’ve had horribly frustrating runs when me and everyone with me was a level 80 and quick, enjoyable runs with a group full of lower levels. the difference between rares and exotics isn’t huge, personally i think traits make the biggest difference (yes they’re kind of a bonus, but they often provide excellent cushions). and i ran AC stupid from lv 35 to 65 (as a mesmer, lol @ whoever said they were useless) in the same set of rare armor (magic find at that). pugging. it’s certainly possible, it just requires patience and cooperation.

that said i have no problem with experienced players only wanting to run with other experienced players. given the choice i’d almost always pick the more experienced players. that’s your choice.

but i certainly implore anyone with this attitude to strongly consider their actions impact on the community. every newbie you drag along with you and take the time to communicate strategies to (or even befriend/guild) is one less completely inexperienced player in the draw pool, and they become more likely spread that knowledge. exponential growth, team.

if you’re in this game to pwn some newbs for a few months before finding a new fling, you play your game, i’ll play mine. but those of us who are in it for the long haul, and see this game as a hobby they’ll have for awhile, might want to build the foundation for a strong community for years to come. and we’d kind of appreciate it if you could at least not be horribly mean to people along the way. i think that’s fair. not everyone has the demeanor or personality to guide a PUG through a dungeon. but even if you don’t, as fellow community members, we’d appreciate a more amicable atmosphere.

also @ the general subplot on AC itself: i strongly believe path 2 is the easiest for your average random group. 1 and 3 have high raw damage requirements (those burrows NEEEEEEEEEEEED to be changed) that exclude condition-based builds. but even then mesmers and necros (often the most reliant on conditions, i believe) can at least defend hodgins in path 1 fairly well with AoE blinds/cripples/chills/pets/controls. path 3 only cares about raw DPS output on the burrows and that is why it’s so frustrating.

Sina.9208:

when a lvl35 guy shows up in blue gear and claims to have done it a million times and refuses to relog and ping some tokens or reward gear I lose my patience and press the kick button.

nachtnebel.9168:

I don’t do explore mode with players below 80

This forum is a great tool. My block list grows every day.

Account.9832:

Sina.9208:

when a lvl35 guy shows up in blue gear and claims to have done it a million times and refuses to relog and ping some tokens or reward gear I lose my patience and press the kick button.

nachtnebel.9168:

I don’t do explore mode with players below 80

This forum is a great tool. My block list grows every day.

No need to block me, we probably won’t meet ^^

Fay.2735:

I can understand why Arenanet decided to cave and add levels to the game but it’s really firing back on itself because with the lack of being able to check for gear people resort to pathetic elitist attitudes like levels to judge whether someone is worthy to join dungeon parties.

Gear checking would make this FAR worse.

On one hand I do understand why you are upset, and the dungeons are definitely doable with the minimum required level. So technically you shouldn’t get kicked out of parties for that.

However the people don’t know you and being a high level with decent gear means that even if you’d suck and couldn’t dodge anything you still wouldn’t go down that fast. So I can totally understand people that are concerned about taking a lvl 35 PuG for AC explo etc.

Now from my own experience: When we are missing someone and looking for a PuG, we do not check gear and level (unless it’s Arah), but when we take lvl 80s PuG its usually a bit faster. However runs with low level players are often more pleasant as they aren’t flaming and annoying as some random lvl 80s PuGs (on the contrary they are willing to learn and follow our strategy). So generally we simply take who whispers me first and I’d encourage others to take lower level people on the run sometimes too, it might be a bit slower but generally I haven’t had too big problems there.

The only dungeon I found that requires some semblance of decent gear (at least rare) is Arah. All the other dungeons I felt are quite doable in greens and blues of semi appropriate level.

The amount of level 80’s I see get downed all the time or causing a wipe….It really isn’t a good indication. The chance of them causing issues is nearly as high as someone of recommended level from my experience anyway.

To be honest looking back most issues I had in PuGs were with level 80’s I cant think of any low levels having caused any major problems. Sure some of the first timers get downed a few times but so did the level 80’s who hadn’t done the dungeon.

Lewis Burnell.2493:

I’ve played AC Explorable on my Engineer since level 31 and managed absolutely fine (I have a level 80 Mesmer) however the difference between AC and CM is enormous. As a level 40 in CM I was being steam rolled during the explorable to the point where I was dead more times than alive.

That is because your party carried you. AC exp can easily be done with 4 people. You are just an add that leeches off of the 4 other players. You think that you were good, but you contributed almost nothing.

runeblade.7514:

Lewis Burnell.2493:

I’ve played AC Explorable on my Engineer since level 31 and managed absolutely fine (I have a level 80 Mesmer) however the difference between AC and CM is enormous. As a level 40 in CM I was being steam rolled during the explorable to the point where I was dead more times than alive.

That is because your party carried you. AC exp can easily be done with 4 people. You are just an add that leeches off of the 4 other players. You think that you were good, but you contributed almost nothing.

This reminds me of a CM explorable run. At the time my level 40 ranger was looking for a CM story mode group and responded to a LFM message that didn’t specify story or explorable. I saw that the team had a level 80 (not surprising since some level 80s hadn’t done story mode of a surprising number of dungeons), a level 42 and the others were 50+. It didn’t cross my mind that this might be a explorable mode dungeon group but lo and behold they entered the dungeon in explorable mode.

Now we did get the first boss down, even with two people below the recommended level 45 but it was so awful that I asked the group to let me change to my level 55 at the time engineer, who had also done story mode CM but that’s beside the point. The fights were more comfortably done after that. The level 42 did die a lot and maybe the rest of us did carry him a bit. I mean, it’s not like I haven’t 4-manned portions of CM when team mates D/C and stuff. But there is a difference between taking someone under the level requirement (or 2 people – which was just stupid) and demanding that people be 80 for AC, CM, TA and even SE.

Ebs you are more than welcome to run AC with me. I run it on my gaurdian and I would be glad to help you learn the dungeon.

Pugging on Yak’s bend server is actually not that bad and if someone is a jerk they don’t get invites to run another pug.

This post is pretty much the reason why I solo games alot. If I have to group though, I usually do it with <80s because they seem to have better things to say. Part of enjoying the MMO IMO is being able to enjoy what normal people do- communicate. If you’re going to play the game like a bot than youre doing it wrong.

Embershard.7294:

This post is pretty much the reason why I solo games alot. If I have to group though, I usually do it with <80s because they seem to have better things to say. Part of enjoying the MMO IMO is being able to enjoy what normal people do- communicate. If you’re going to play the game like a bot than youre doing it wrong.

A lot of my PuG actually do communicate. A lot of other PuG do communicate as well.

Strill.2591:

Competent people want to speed run AC. Trying to teach a new person all the shortcuts and hoping they don’t screw them up is too much work, and moreover contradicts the whole point of speed running.

Incompetent people can barely complete it at all, and think that lower levels and particular class compositions actually make a meaningful difference compared to knowing which utility skills to bring and when to dodge.

Yes but at the same time if you’re gonna be a prick about speed running, you should probably have a premade group to be pricks with you.

Fay.2735:

You do realize that a large portion of those ‘noobies’ are actually players who are playing on an alt.

That’s great.

Let them do the footwork of putting together a group.

I did a CM exp run with 2 below 80 and it might not have been as fast as some groups, but it was definately a whole lot of fun. Everyone was just chilling and doing their best to progress in the dungeon. We talked a bit while we cleared trash and all in all it was a great experience.

In most groups these days it’s all about rushing with little communication at all. Expecially full 80 groups tend to be very boring unless it’s with mates. That’s why I rather go with lower players that make me enjoy the game then rushing level 80s.

I ran AC last night and one kid was having a fit in chat got pissed that I didn’t keep up with him on one part. Funny thing was when we got to last boss of route 2 I saw him die 3 times. Players have these huge issues with speed run but at the end of the day are usually bad. Don’t worry about getting kicked start your own party and relax. The best parties their is barely any chatting follow the leader kill than move on.

I don’t know about you but dying and failing doesn’t sound fun to me.If people want a smooth run who are you to condamn them.I never had the heart to kick a newbie from my party but most of the times I did run a party whit them it was significantly harder and took longer then its supposed to take.

You got kicked from a party well buhuu..They don’t owe you anything.Instead you owe them a valuable party member.I remember I was low level too , struggling whit CM.I was a complete failure.People were patient whit me but that doesn’t mean that people who are less patient are horrible.Different people look for different kind of experience.Grow up.

I have 3 × 80′s and never did AC.

Where is your god now ? All u have to say is “LFM Experienced for speedrun” not this “80” crap.

From experience, the lower level do die alot more than the rest. Of course dungeon experience > level anyday. A level 35 AC veteran will definitely help alot more than a lvl 80 full exotic dungeon newbie.

Personally I accept most level range in my group . I accept dungeon newbie as well. I don’t mind spending 30 minutes in a run slowly teaching them part by part. That is because back then when I did my first run, I met a nice group patiently teaching me everything.