Guild Wars 2

Yeah!

deSade.9437:

The elitists are the rebellious minority, just sayin’.

Whatever you say, play how you want and take 3 hours to do a fractal. See if I care we’re just trying to help your poor casuals.

Nope, we are the one helping you to find the way to fun and relaxing dungeons!

Oof DeSade, you gonna.take that sitting down? Hehe

blessing nosferatu.3784:

Nope, we are the one helping you to find the way to fun and relaxing dungeons!

I consider fun to be soloing dungeons alone and keeping my stacks and doing it faster than a full group of casuals that will just get me killed. Thanks but no thanks

lies and more lies!

Meh, I lost track of the thread for a second. You elitists better stop ruining this game… else I swear I’m not going to stop my righteous streak of reporting all exploiters that plague the lfg, selling Arah and the like.
I’ll keep watching closely, in case someone is mean to a fellow player and needs to be flagged. Gotta keep it constructive. Don’t give up, Bob.

Bob for casuals president!!!

blessing nosferatu.3784:

Bob for casuals president!!!

I accept your nomination.

What fractal will you research if we vote for you?

The disappearance of Robert Hrouda.

DigitalKirin.9714:

What fractal will you research if we vote for you?

If elected, I would research the Dragons themselves (you know, what this game is supposedly based upon?).

Show your support here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/President/first#post3404191

Thank you!

They can delete my threads, but they will never break my spirit (unlike the lfg tool).

FOR QUEEEEEEEEENSDAAAAAALLEEEEE!!~

LittleLepton.8915:

The disappearance of Robert Hrouda.

Pure kittening win. Love it <3

This may be a troll thread, but doesn’t the fact that things like “optimal build” and “substandard build” point out a very deep flaw in game design? I mean, shouldn’t GW2 have a greater build diversity instead of everyone sort of settling on one build per class? Why can’t we have a condition built warrior that deals devastating stacks of bleeding?

That being said, I usually use a greatsword on my gaurdian. I use scepter/torch when I need ranged dps, but usually use a staff for speed boosts and buffs.

ConntectToReality.5926:

This may be a troll thread, but doesn’t the fact that things like “optimal build” and “substandard build” point out a very deep flaw in game design? I mean, shouldn’t GW2 have a greater build diversity instead of everyone sort of settling on one build per class? Why can’t we have a condition built warrior that deals devastating stacks of bleeding?

That being said, I usually use a greatsword on my gaurdian. I use scepter/torch when I need ranged dps, but usually use a staff for speed boosts and buffs.

By definition, being “optimal” means that it is the best build out of all the other potentially viable builds. When taken in general, this game has more “viable” builds than most other RPGs that I’ve played. Just because one build is optimal, does not mean that every other build will not work. This is why we see things like shout heal warriors and minion masters running around.

This brings us to the next point about why you would wish to settle for anything other than optimal. Does it not churn your soul knowing that you could potentially be so much more useful or powerful with a simple change of your traits or gear? Why would anyone be content being inferior?

Then, on the flip side of the coin, to address your other statement about having a number of equal builds, wouldn’t that make you just “average”? If your build was just as good as 7 other builds, you’re just the same as everyone else. A game like this gives you only the illusion of choice when any trait or stat selection you make results in the same outcome as all the other possibilities.

600 crit too stronk. Guardian needs buff. All is vain.

Why did you feel the need to resurrect this thread?

ConntectToReality.5926:

This may be a troll thread, but doesn’t the fact that things like “optimal build” and “substandard build” point out a very deep flaw in game design? I mean, shouldn’t GW2 have a greater build diversity instead of everyone sort of settling on one build per class? Why can’t we have a condition built warrior that deals devastating stacks of bleeding?

That being said, I usually use a greatsword on my gaurdian. I use scepter/torch when I need ranged dps, but usually use a staff for speed boosts and buffs.

How is it a deep flaw? I’m sure in any trinity MMO there are builds which involve maximising a character’s healing, tankiness (in the sense of being able to draw aggro, hold it and sustain damage, not just pure damage resiliency) or DPS. The meta builds in GW2 actually have variation, mesmers for example have 0/30/0/25/15, 10/30/0/20/10, 10/30/0/10/20 and then there’s a 30/30/0/0/10 raw DPS build. Warriors originally had the 30/25/0/0/15 and 30/0/0/10/30 builds, now it’s just 30/25. Guardians have 15/15/0/20/20 hammer, 10/30/0/5/25, 20/25/0/0/25, 10/30/0/0/30 or even 10/30/0/10/20.

The reason we can’t, for example have a condition warrior, is that condition damage by its nature is DoT, and dungeons tend to involve spiking bosses down with burst damage, and conditions aren’t going to be any match for a fiery greatsword, a whirlwind in to a wall, a whirling wrath fully inside a hitbox or a thief hacking away behind a boss for the positional damage modifier.

Now if you were to argue it’s a problem that condi builds aren’t viable … then yes, I’m sure people would agree with you that it’s a shame, but that would mean segregating PvE and PvP balance entirely and removing the condition cap, the former which ANet can do, but the latter which hardware restrictions make it impossible for them to do so.

Oh god even if its just a troll thread it gave me cancer anyway.

it is funny how he is convinced that criting over 600 is fine

deSade.9437:

Erebus.9276:

Elitism addiction is a serious problem and you should really seek help, they even have support groups: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Looking-for-slow-dungeon-runners

I’ll try to take things more slowly. Today I started with the cure: SB/LB ranger with a pig and a boar. I had lots of funsies, ressing my noob team that died in melee and overall surviving fights. Maybe I can get out of the elitism tunnel, with the help of my loyal Mortadella… oh, and Bambi of course.

Im a longbow/axehorn ranger and im also an elitist who constantly fight and test builds for maximised effectiveness within the limit of the reasonable. Longbow is just a misunderstood child, Note i run mesmer and zerk warrior along with zerk guardian as well so it aint anything to do with behing close minded rangers have their own place in the natural order of dungeon running and so do necromancers.

kyubi.3620:

deSade.9437:

Erebus.9276:

Elitism addiction is a serious problem and you should really seek help, they even have support groups: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Looking-for-slow-dungeon-runners

I’ll try to take things more slowly. Today I started with the cure: SB/LB ranger with a pig and a boar. I had lots of funsies, ressing my noob team that died in melee and overall surviving fights. Maybe I can get out of the elitism tunnel, with the help of my loyal Mortadella… oh, and Bambi of course.

Im a longbow/axehorn ranger and im also an elitist who constantly fight for maximised effectiveness within the limit of the reasonable. Longbow is just a misunderstood child, Note i run mesmer and zerk warrior along with zerk guardian as well so it aint anything to do with behing close minded rangers have their own place in the natural order of dungeon running and so do necromancers.

o.o

I like hopping around the screen with my ranger with sword MH but, axe MH? Is that good?

I actually remember leaving the character on its own after starting because I hated the starting weapon (axe) it took me a year and 3 months to touch it again.

What? I’m just confused, I’ve never heard someone call themselves elitist and that they use LB in the same sentence, is all.

Misguided souls tend to use weird things and are still elitists.

spoj.9672:

Misguided souls tend to use weird things and are still elitists.

Fair enough.

actualy i didnt choose axe mainhand for its damage altrought the bouncing strike helps a little in that way but for the number of hit it can score within a single attack. Im still evaluating the potential between sword and axe for might stacking because axe deals 3 bounce wich may all score might on crit for pet but sword gain 1 free might stack on the third hit.. So far i keep for axe but im likely to do some test to check wich weapon stacks might the quickest versus damage overall potential because more might on pet = more damage but more damage from weapon also = more damage.

so far my verdict sound like
sword: 3 hit 2 second 1 free might
axe: 2 hit x 3 (triple bounce) two second ranged but lower damage on single target
ill need to evaluate gain and loss altrought i guess sword would gain advantage on a single target dps basis
Unlike some would believe i dont run the actual meta build but more of a 0 20 0 15 30 version of the spec with a 5 point wich im still evaluating to place between skirmish and nature magic could also go in wilderness survival but ive been avoiding marksmanship because of how bad the trait are in that spec so far. Im far from behing misguided

Nothing like still evaluating something that has been calculated months ago as sub-optimal.

I missed this thread so I’m bringing it back. Is it still breaking your spirit OP? Have there been any changes? I can’t remember if merging was fixed……… But I haven’t seen any threads on it lately.

What other changes to the LFG are needed? Perhaps no instant join? Are there any ways they can make it more casual friendly while making it nicer for elites?

OP was banned from the forums approximately 2 months ago so we will hear no response from him.
But I can speak for him that it is still breaking all our spirits.

Source: He is in my guild.

(For mods reading this I am not talking about modding practices. Just stating a fact to answer the above question.)

Harsh!

Anyway, sad he’s gone. And that this is still breaking spirits.

Never seen a disclaimer like those made by Tree in years of internet dated way back in BBS time.
I have taken the liberty to ban myself from the forum and will also ban myself from GW2 at the end of this month.

And I still play pigbow.

Darthaemos.6370:

ConntectToReality.5926:

This may be a troll thread, but doesn’t the fact that things like “optimal build” and “substandard build” point out a very deep flaw in game design? I mean, shouldn’t GW2 have a greater build diversity instead of everyone sort of settling on one build per class? Why can’t we have a condition built warrior that deals devastating stacks of bleeding?

That being said, I usually use a greatsword on my gaurdian. I use scepter/torch when I need ranged dps, but usually use a staff for speed boosts and buffs.

By definition, being “optimal” means that it is the best build out of all the other potentially viable builds. When taken in general, this game has more “viable” builds than most other RPGs that I’ve played. Just because one build is optimal, does not mean that every other build will not work. This is why we see things like shout heal warriors and minion masters running around.

This brings us to the next point about why you would wish to settle for anything other than optimal. Does it not churn your soul knowing that you could potentially be so much more useful or powerful with a simple change of your traits or gear? Why would anyone be content being inferior?

Then, on the flip side of the coin, to address your other statement about having a number of equal builds, wouldn’t that make you just “average”? If your build was just as good as 7 other builds, you’re just the same as everyone else. A game like this gives you only the illusion of choice when any trait or stat selection you make results in the same outcome as all the other possibilities.

The flip side to that is if there’s one Optimal build, what if you dislike its playstyle? Also, when a Optimal build emerges, the chances are you didn’t discover it. So you aren’t using your own build, you’re using a build created by some faceless player, simply because they claimed it was the best, and others believed them. At least when there’s multiple optimal playstyles, there’s a better chance the build you have most fun with will be respected and considered a good choice.
Another good example is stacking. It is stupidly effective, yet as being the Optimal approach to 90% of the encounters in this game, it makes everything feel rather dull. On top of that, it’s the opposite of what anyone could call “Spectaular”.

By definition, Optimal means “the best or most favorable outcome” and implies a singular. This is something that isn’t directly controllable by ANet. They can give us tools to work with, but in the end it’s the players that make the decision on what they view as Optimal for their specific situation.

So before you start demanding that more things become optimal, perhaps you should consider what your criteria is first, as well as the criteria of other players.

Now, as you attempt to start making more builds “optimal” consider what that really means. Choices that players make mean less. If it takes a group of players specced for DPS 6 minutes to clear a dungeon, and a group of players specced to tank 6 minutes to clear the same dungeon, and a group of players who barely know how to press 1 on their keyboard 6 minutes to clear the same dungeon, how do the choices that the players make become meaningful?

DigitalKirin.9714:

By definition, Optimal means “the best or most favorable outcome” and implies a singular. This is something that isn’t directly controllable by ANet. They can give us tools to work with, but in the end it’s the players that make the decision on what they view as Optimal for their specific situation.

So before you start demanding that more things become optimal, perhaps you should consider what your criteria is first, as well as the criteria of other players.

Now, as you attempt to start making more builds “optimal” consider what that really means. Choices that players make mean less. If it takes a group of players specced for DPS 6 minutes to clear a dungeon, and a group of players specced to tank 6 minutes to clear the same dungeon, and a group of players who barely know how to press 1 on their keyboard 6 minutes to clear the same dungeon, how do the choices that the players make become meaningful?

Is there really a choice if there’s only one “best” choice? The choice when there’s only one optimal build is either to be useful or be useless. At least that’s how binary it gets are the higher levels. It stops being a matter of skill at that level, it becomes a matter of whether you chose your build or you’ve decided to copy someone else.

Dual.8953:

Is there really a choice if there’s only one “best” choice? The choice when there’s only one optimal build is either to be useful or be useless. At least that’s how binary it gets are the higher levels. It stops being a matter of skill at that level, it becomes a matter of whether you chose your build or you’ve decided to copy someone else.

There’s always a choice.

But really, how would you design this game to have multiple “optimal” choices? I’m curious to hear it.

DigitalKirin.9714:

Dual.8953:

Is there really a choice if there’s only one “best” choice? The choice when there’s only one optimal build is either to be useful or be useless. At least that’s how binary it gets are the higher levels. It stops being a matter of skill at that level, it becomes a matter of whether you chose your build or you’ve decided to copy someone else.

There’s always a choice.

But really, how would you design this game to have multiple “optimal” choices? I’m curious to hear it.

It’d be difficult really. The easiest way would be to regulate things, hammer anything that stands out. Another could be tailoring the dungeon with alternate routes for alternate setups. Like one route would have a bunch or harder hitting yet squishy enemies with unforgiving AoE, and another could be longer and have more enemies but the enemies would be easier and another would have enemies with nigh unavoidable attacks, mixed in with lighter rapid attacks, but they’d be vulnerable too see. The devs could tweak the difficulty of these routes to make sure one doesn’t take less time than the other.

I wonder where the pieces would fall if they outright got rid of Berserker’s, Assassin’s and Rampager’s. Offering free stats swapping of course.

@Dual People would take Knights, probably.

There’s many optimals out there. There’s a range of 4-5 “optimal” ele builds, depending on play style preference and the content (s/f + LH with or without persisting flames, staff, d/f, etc.). There’s many choices of guardian build (gs+s/f, or hammer). There’s many choices of mesmer build (various combinations which maximize reflect damage, or pure DPS).

There’s quite a bit of flexibility in the meta for all classes. The gear is almost always just zerker (sometimes assassin’s) but you do have choices.

maxinion.8396:

There’s many optimals out there. There’s a range of 4-5 “optimal” ele builds, depending on play style preference and the content (s/f + LH with or without persisting flames, staff, d/f, etc.). There’s many choices of guardian build (gs+s/f, or hammer). There’s many choices of mesmer build (various combinations which maximize reflect damage, or pure DPS).

There’s quite a bit of flexibility in the meta for all classes. The gear is almost always just zerker (sometimes assassin’s) but you do have choices.

I think those are viable builds instead of optimals. An optimal build (or choice?) depends on the team composition. There will always be a max DPS build for a situation and the optimal choice would be to use that build in that situation (reflect vs non reflect).

It’s nice to see a variety of builds with minimum DPS loss, but I don’t see anything wrong with one build having the most DPS than all the others.

The scale of the problem you see in LFG PUG isn’t about Ele making the choice between D/F Fresh Air or Sc/X LH or Fire staff. The scale is between a warrior meleeing properly and one that uses a rifle instead.

xallever.1874:

maxinion.8396:

There’s many optimals out there. There’s a range of 4-5 “optimal” ele builds, depending on play style preference and the content (s/f + LH with or without persisting flames, staff, d/f, etc.). There’s many choices of guardian build (gs+s/f, or hammer). There’s many choices of mesmer build (various combinations which maximize reflect damage, or pure DPS).

There’s quite a bit of flexibility in the meta for all classes. The gear is almost always just zerker (sometimes assassin’s) but you do have choices.

I think those are viable builds instead of optimals. An optimal build (or choice?) depends on the team composition. There will always be a max DPS build for a situation and the optimal choice would be to use that build in that situation (reflect vs non reflect).

It’s nice to see a variety of builds with minimum DPS loss, but I don’t see anything wrong with one build having the most DPS than all the others.

The scale of the problem you see in LFG PUG isn’t about Ele making the choice between D/F Fresh Air or Sc/X LH or Fire staff. The scale is between a warrior meleeing properly and one that uses a rifle instead.

Absolutely agreed, especially with the last part. There is almost always a best answer, but the range of runner-ups is quite large, and gives quite some variation to the playstyles. Few are going to complain about using one of those runner up builds, but you’re not going to set records with them.

Dual.8953:

It’d be difficult really. The easiest way would be to regulate things, hammer anything that stands out.

That sounds essentially like nerfing anything that is popular. Again, I think this essentially means making all choices meaningless.

Dual.8953:

Another could be tailoring the dungeon with alternate routes for alternate setups. Like one route would have a bunch or harder hitting yet squishy enemies with unforgiving AoE, and another could be longer and have more enemies but the enemies would be easier and another would have enemies with nigh unavoidable attacks, mixed in with lighter rapid attacks, but they’d be vulnerable too see. The devs could tweak the difficulty of these routes to make sure one doesn’t take less time than the other.

The problem I see with this is that that there are always skilled players who can take hard hitting enemies – especialy ones that might be squishier – and put them down faster and better than those that rely on passive defense stats like vitality and toughness, which that path would be “built” for. Consider dredge fractal 50, or even 70+ back when that was available. Those dredge hit like trucks. And people went in DPS builds and still rocked those runs.

Dual.8953:

I wonder where the pieces would fall if they outright got rid of Berserker’s, Assassin’s and Rampager’s. Offering free stats swapping of course.

Nearsighted. People would go to Knight’s, as mentioned above. And then you have a slippery slope. At what point do you stop taking away stats from people? Until there’s only Apothecary gear left? No Zerk, no Assassin, no Rampager, no Soldier, no Cleric, no Rabid… just one type. Then everyone would be equal.

You never hear players in this forum saying “They need to just delete Cleric’s gear.” You know what we say? “Hey, if you want to play with your clerics and soldier’s gear, go ahead… just please make your own party and play with like minded people. We want to play with our own like minded people.” Live and let live. Consider what you’ve said there.

DigitalKirin.9714:

Dual.8953:

It’d be difficult really. The easiest way would be to regulate things, hammer anything that stands out.

That sounds essentially like nerfing anything that is popular. Again, I think this essentially means making all choices meaningless.

Dual.8953:

Another could be tailoring the dungeon with alternate routes for alternate setups. Like one route would have a bunch or harder hitting yet squishy enemies with unforgiving AoE, and another could be longer and have more enemies but the enemies would be easier and another would have enemies with nigh unavoidable attacks, mixed in with lighter rapid attacks, but they’d be vulnerable too see. The devs could tweak the difficulty of these routes to make sure one doesn’t take less time than the other.

The problem I see with this is that that there are always skilled players who can take hard hitting enemies – especialy ones that might be squishier – and put them down faster and better than those that rely on passive defense stats like vitality and toughness, which that path would be “built” for. Consider dredge fractal 50, or even 70+ back when that was available. Those dredge hit like trucks. And people went in DPS builds and still rocked those runs.

Dual.8953:

I wonder where the pieces would fall if they outright got rid of Berserker’s, Assassin’s and Rampager’s. Offering free stats swapping of course.

Nearsighted. People would go to Knight’s, as mentioned above. And then you have a slippery slope. At what point do you stop taking away stats from people? Until there’s only Apothecary gear left? No Zerk, no Assassin, no Rampager, no Soldier, no Cleric, no Rabid… just one type. Then everyone would be equal.

You never hear players in this forum saying “They need to just delete Cleric’s gear.” You know what we say? “Hey, if you want to play with your clerics and soldier’s gear, go ahead… just please make your own party and play with like minded people. We want to play with our own like minded people.” Live and let live. Consider what you’ve said there.

Explain to me, how are there meaningful choices in the Dungeon builds. If you want peers to take you seriously you have to run whatever the meta spec is. If you don’t you’re instantly considered bad at the game. At least that’s the vibe I get, whenever I see someone post a build here for rating. This says to me according to how the meta is there’s only one right answer in a multitude of wrong answers. When there’s only one right way to play and everything else is wrong, that just makes everything stale and static. Experimentation and advancement grind to a near halt.

Please read my above posts. There is a broad spectrum of viable, meta builds for almost all classes. It might not be the diversity you’re looking for— they’re all zerker or assassin based— but there is quite a variation in style.

Hell, five months ago people were laughing at the thought of staff ele as highest DPS. It was shown to be true, and is now widely accepted. Nike’s current warrior meta build is from July or so, and very different from previous builds. Changes and experimentation absolutely do happen.

actually I’m pretty sure that I’ve seen people using the 30/25 build in videos way before the June patch last year when 20/25/0/10/15 was meta. warrior is a pretty static class since it’s pretty obvious what’s good and what isn’t.

but most classes do have at least 2 or more viable meta DPS builds that can function very well depending on circumstances (even warriors have the EA variant), so I wouldn’t say that there is no build diversity, though diversity in roles is (as expected due to the gameplay of this game) lacking.

Dual.8953:

Explain to me, how are there meaningful choices in the Dungeon builds.

The choices you make are meaningful because there are better choices and worse choices. Think about it this way: If every build you made produced the same end result, does it matter what build you run? Is your build meaningful?

Dual.8953:

If you want peers to take you seriously you have to run whatever the meta spec is.

This depends on who you consider your peers. Again, this comes back to criteria. If you’re concerned about finishing a run as fast as your player skill (and your team’s skill) can handle, then your build should reflect that by building to kill things quickly. If your priority is to stand toe-to-toe with Lupi and tank every hit and heal through it, your build should reflect it – and your team should be built with these goals in mind.

Dual.8953:

If you don’t you’re instantly considered bad at the game. At least that’s the vibe I get, whenever I see someone post a build here for rating.

Here’s the thing: most of the dungeon forum regulars generally choose to base performance off of completing a run smoothly and quickly. Now when people post a build, they’ll give honest (sometimes brutally honest) answers. The thing is that they’re not saying “You’re a terrible person who kills puppies and kittens for playing a build like this.” What they usually are saying is, “If I was making the build for me, I’d use x y and z traits because they help the team kill things faster.”
What usually ends up happening is that the person with the build then takes personal affront and calls people “no-skill exploiters” or somesuch. How would you feel if someone asked you for your honest opinion, then replied, “I don’t like your answer, plus you’re a cheater! Nyah!”

Dual.8953:

This says to me according to how the meta is there’s only one right answer in a multitude of wrong answers. When there’s only one right way to play and everything else is wrong, that just makes everything stale and static. Experimentation and advancement grind to a near halt.

As maxinion mentions above, people are always pioneering new builds. But for a build to be considered an improvement, usually you need to prove that the build works better than the previous one. This usually involves discussion on both theorycraft as well as practical use in dungeons.

In the end, it comes down to you choosing to customize your party to what YOU want to do. If you want to noskip nostack, you’re absolutely free to do so… just write it in your comments. If you want to speedrun and gearcheck everyone in your party, you’re absolutely free to do so… just write it in your comments.

It intrigues me that given how this thread started it has evolved into an actual civilised discussion that I like to follow.
Does this mean any thread about this topic will always end up the opposite of the spirit in which it was originally posted? If so, then maybe we need more threads that start out as the equivalent of a barrel of kerosene and a box of matches.

Silberfisch.3046:

It intrigues me that given how this thread started it has evolved into an actual civilised discussion that I like to follow.
Does this mean any thread about this topic will always end up the opposite of the spirit in which it was originally posted? If so, then maybe we need more threads that start out as the equivalent of a barrel of kerosene and a box of matches.

Agreed. I really love this thread. This was my best necro move ever (actually, only necro I’ve ever played ;D)

Silberfisch.3046:

It intrigues me that given how this thread started it has evolved into an actual civilised discussion that I like to follow.
Does this mean any thread about this topic will always end up the opposite of the spirit in which it was originally posted? If so, then maybe we need more threads that start out as the equivalent of a barrel of kerosene and a box of matches.

Civil discussion starts with civil people.

Optimal by definition means that there is only one choice if you want to be optimal. The functions with more than one maxima are very rare.