Guild Wars 2

So, I have posed the suggestion to implement raids on other sub-forums. But it always gets poo-pooed away by people with the excuse of either “no one would do them cause they would be too hard” or “no one would do them because they would complain that they are too easy, like dungeons” or “just do Teq or 3 headed jungle wurm, that’s a raid.”

First of all, let me just say this: Open world boss fights are not raids, and cannot ever be a replacement for raids

So what is a raid? It’s an instanced , dungeon type encounter that requires a minimum of 10 people. They typically have scalable difficulty, and challenging fight mechanics that require communication and coordination of everyone involved. And once again: They are instanced, people can’t just walk into the encounter at any time, or walk out at any time, or just spam auto-attack and get their loot. Everyone involved has a role to play and specific mechanics they must obey or the whole group fails.

Now, the real question: If they implemented raids, with a group size of 10 or 20 people, with scaling difficulty similar to Fractals, and fight mechanics that are as fun and challenging, would you do such raids?

Gern.2978:

Open world boss fights are not raids, and cannot ever be a replacement for raids

So what is a raid? It’s an instanced , dungeon type encounter that requires a minimum of 10 people.

I disagree.

Crysto.7089:

Gern.2978:

Open world boss fights are not raids, and cannot ever be a replacement for raids

So what is a raid? It’s an instanced , dungeon type encounter that requires a minimum of 10 people.

I disagree.

I, on the other hand, agree. Why do you disagree?

Because language is such that words hold different meanings for different people.

As a semi-rhetorical question, why would content with the same parameters only with 9 players not qualify as a raid?

Why could open-world content NEVER EVER be a replacement for a raid? Depending on each person and what they want to get out of a “raid” of course it could be a replacement. In fact, it meets all of the requirements set forth here, other than instanced.

It’s an instanced , dungeon type encounter that requires a minimum of 10 people. They typically have scalable difficulty, and challenging fight mechanics that require communication and coordination of everyone involved.

Now, if you wanted to frame the discussion by saying specifically that when we talk about raids in the context of this thread, raids refer to X… that’s another matter.

Crysto.7089:

Now, if you wanted to frame the discussion by saying specifically that when we talk about raids in the context of this thread, raids refer to X… that’s another matter.

That is exactly what I am taking about, I made that as clear as I can. You are trying to confuse my question by splitting hairs on the basis of your definition of what a raid is.

The question is: Would you do raids as I described them.

I agree with Gern, and disagree with Crysto. Raids need to be instanced. The people that are raiding with you need to have some sort of relation to you, ie you selected each other to form a party or group or some sort to achieve a task. This can only happen in an instance. In open world, with random map traverses coming and going, there is no way to control strangers. It’s more of an “event” than a “raid.” For the hardcore scene, where each player has a specific duty to perform for the overall goal, you need control, and limit the external variables.

edit and to answer your question Gern, yes, i would raid as you have described it all day erryday

I would agree with raids as you have described them.
One addition : you go in – and it should have a one and done policy. You go in – you mess up and wipe you have to restart. No more we’ll just WP and we’re fine.

Harper.4173:

I would agree with raids as you have described them.
One addition : you go in – and it should have a one and done policy. You go in – you mess up and wipe you have to restart. No more we’ll just WP and we’re fine.

Yeah! Up the ante a bit, I always thought it was lame that you can just wipe without penalty. But up the rewards too.

Gern.2978:

The question is: Would you do raids as I described them.

Sure. I’d try any new content for free. Can’t say with certainty that I would enjoy it or stick with it but I’d at least try it.

Nyspar.6103:

I agree with Gern, and disagree with Crysto. Raids need to be instanced.

I only made two statements.
1. Words mean things to different people.
2. One activity could take the place of another it terms of the fulfillment you get from said activity. (ie. I enjoy activity A because B! ANet introduces activity C which includes B! I now prefer activity C.)

Which of those do you disagree with and, please, explain.

The raids you have described would become cocaine to me.

Cocaine you say?

Harper.4173:

I would agree with raids as you have described them.
One addition : you go in – and it should have a one and done policy. You go in – you mess up and wipe you have to restart. No more we’ll just WP and we’re fine.

Yeah if they put in the restarting feature I guarantee you nobody would take beginners to any hard dungeon. If they ever put in hard content they shouldn’t make it punishing(loosing stuff on dying(like in Tera) or restarting whole dungeon. That would just widen the already big gap between the elitists and casuals. Also they won’t make a raid or dungeon that is not doable with beginners only.

Raids are simply multigroup events. That said, I believe there is an implication as to requiring an organized force to overcome challenging obstacles. With that in mind, I don’t think any Open world content would suffice IN GW2. I have seen open world content as raids in past games, but it was moved away from for various reasons (namely competition and availability between players, and zerging).

So I don’t think it requires instances, but I do think GW2 lacks the design to allow it to be open world.

I do fully support the idea that a wipe is a wipe is a wipe, no recovery, you’re donezo. I always felt that this mentality of “if we wipe we just WP and go again” has contributed to the more Yolo style of the game, it think it would change things up a bit and develop more options and strategies if a full wipe was punished.

Definitely in favor of difficult instanced content designed for more than a single party. 10 man raids would be a great addition to the game.

Not even vanilla WoW had raids ending on wipe. This is just stupid and makes the game more annoying. There are great single player games, where a player death means something (Bloodborne, Souls series…) and I appreciate it. Be cause death means something. But please not in a MMO. Even in GW1 they noticed that and added resurrection temples in their dungeons.

Crysto.7089:

Gern.2978:

Open world boss fights are not raids, and cannot ever be a replacement for raids

So what is a raid? It’s an instanced , dungeon type encounter that requires a minimum of 10 people.

I disagree.

The word “raid” has the connotation of difficult group content that requires — as a group — lots of coordination, and — from each member of the group — high levels of skill, and knowledge of game mechanics to defeat.

Open world boss fights in GW2 require either none, or extremely limited amount of this.

Lord Kuru.3685:

Crysto.7089:

Gern.2978:

Open world boss fights are not raids, and cannot ever be a replacement for raids

So what is a raid? It’s an instanced , dungeon type encounter that requires a minimum of 10 people.

I disagree.

The word “raid” has the connotation of difficult group content that requires — as a group — lots of coordination, and — from each member of the group — high levels of skill, and knowledge of game mechanics to defeat.

Open world boss fights in GW2 require either none, or extremely limited amount of this.

The OP has already established the meaning of “raid” in the context of this thread. Your and my opinions are irrelevant regarding the definition, at least in this discussion.

Gern.2978:

So, I have posed the suggestion to implement raids on other sub-forums. But it always gets poo-pooed away by people with the excuse of either “no one would do them cause they would be too hard” or “no one would do them because they would complain that they are too easy, like dungeons” or “just do Teq or 3 headed jungle wurm, that’s a raid.”

First of all, let me just say this: Open world boss fights are not raids, and cannot ever be a replacement for raids

So what is a raid? It’s an instanced , dungeon type encounter that requires a minimum of 10 people. They typically have scalable difficulty, and challenging fight mechanics that require communication and coordination of everyone involved. And once again: They are instanced, people can’t just walk into the encounter at any time, or walk out at any time, or just spam auto-attack and get their loot. Everyone involved has a role to play and specific mechanics they must obey or the whole group fails.

Now, the real question: If they implemented raids, with a group size of 10 or 20 people, with scaling difficulty similar to Fractals, and fight mechanics that are as fun and challenging, would you do such raids?

With the current game difficulty you will get 10 people stacking in a corner, spamming until they kill it, then someone will make a video and use it to make a huge MEME saying: GW2 raids.

Seriusly, first fix the problems we have and then try to make more options.

In fractals, you don’t really see much corner stacking for bosses, so it should be a non issue. I really hope they introduce split tactics for a good portion of these raids similar to UWSC in gw1.

Crysto.7089:

I only made two statements.
1. Words mean things to different people.
2. One activity could take the place of another it terms of the fulfillment you get from said activity. (ie. I enjoy activity A because B! ANet introduces activity C which includes B! I now prefer activity C.)

Which of those do you disagree with and, please, explain.

If these are the only points you’ve made then they contribute nothing to the discussion. Please, if you would like to discuss what you’re going for here, PM Gern and hash it out there. Keep the discussion here about raids and their general value and not the nitpicks of the implementation or principle of the thing.

Gern.2978:

First of all, let me just say this: Open world boss fights are not raids, and cannot ever be a replacement for raids

I disagree….

Raids existed way before instancing. EQ was highly touted as the “raid PvE” game before WoW. They didn’t have instances until a long time after, and the only reason they added instancing was because the CS service issues with Kill Stealing etc (which this game doesn’t have).

I would definitely go for pesudo instancing through the guild system though. Have both open world encounters and then ones you enter an instance version through for your guild specifically with a lower player limit or something.

As for 10 man, back when raids were 80 man “two grouping” something wasn’t raiding. It was a casual kill and would not be considered a worthy “raid target”. So the meaning doesn’t hold much until the devs literally make it in the game.

Dead.7385:

Gern.2978:

First of all, let me just say this: Open world boss fights are not raids, and cannot ever be a replacement for raids

I disagree….

Raids existed way before instancing. EQ was highly touted as the “raid PvE” game before WoW. They didn’t have instances until a long time after, and the only reason they added instancing was because the CS service issues with Kill Stealing etc (which this game doesn’t have).

I would definitely go for pesudo instancing through the guild system though. Have both open world encounters and then ones you enter an instance version through for your guild specifically with a lower player limit or something.

As for 10 man, back when raids were 80 man “two grouping” something wasn’t raiding. It was a casual kill and would not be considered a worthy “raid target”. So the meaning doesn’t hold much until the devs literally make it in the game.

First, EQ first got instances in their expansion that released prior to WoW’s initial emergence. It was also retroactively applied to it’s final zone of the previous expansion.

And while it was primarily done for the “kill stealing” and broader competition for kills, there was certainly an element of zerging that had already emerged and there was a desire to counter that, which instances certainly did. And, why EQ also dropped to a 54 man cap with this move when prior to that it wasn’t uncommon to run with a full 72 raid and maybe even multi-raid group raids that had 100+ doing well to trivialize content (how I got my first Naggy kill ).

As for “10 not being a raid” to paraphrase, well, I raided DCUO and it was 8. It’s certainly weird when you compare to oldschool EQ type situations, but the same mentality is there. It’s just a shift in goals/focus, do you want individuals to feel more relied upon, having everyone have to do well, or do you want that giant epic feeling with a lot of focus on coordinating (or as we said in EQ, herding cats ). Certainly elements of both I enjoy, but I will say I enjoy the smaller more focus on individual efforts better.

Shuheri.4057:

Harper.4173:

I would agree with raids as you have described them.
One addition : you go in – and it should have a one and done policy. You go in – you mess up and wipe you have to restart. No more we’ll just WP and we’re fine.

Yeah if they put in the restarting feature I guarantee you nobody would take beginners to any hard dungeon. If they ever put in hard content they shouldn’t make it punishing(loosing stuff on dying(like in Tera) or restarting whole dungeon. That would just widen the already big gap between the elitists and casuals. Also they won’t make a raid or dungeon that is not doable with beginners only.

Nobody takes beginners anyway. And plus – why is it that beginners should be able to instantly do every bit of content in the game without a care?

Maybe some things should be practiced before. It’s not like there isn’t precedent.

FOTM 50 doesn’t allow beginners since you don’t have the AR for it – the gate is equipment not even skill based.

FOTM in general requires you to play better than “OMG open world spam 1 and win”.

The reason you should have a one and done policy to some content is to get players to improve. To get better.

If they always complete no matter what people will very rarely want to rise above their current skill level. An exclusive instance with strict penalties for failing ensures that the best players succeed.
Their success and rare loot will motivate others to follow in their footsteps. And maybe we’d get less of the “omg zerker meta so eZ everything is stack and smack” posts made by people that just don’t get the game.

The gap between “elitists” and “casuals” is already there – and even with very simple and easy content will remain there since some are farming while others want to roleplay in the content.

Also they won’t make a raid or dungeon that is not doable with beginners only.

This is absurd and false.

When the game launched 90% of parties couldn’t complete most paths in dungeons without glitching.

When fractals launched a lot of people wouldn’t be able to complete and get stuck.

If this game sets the bar so low that 5 people who are new cannot fail then the game has failed to produce any meaningful content.
I’m not saying all content should be hard – but you should have a 10% of content that people actually have to learn to be able to do and be on their best game to do it.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Not even vanilla WoW had raids ending on wipe. This is just stupid and makes the game more annoying. There are great single player games, where a player death means something (Bloodborne, Souls series…) and I appreciate it. Be cause death means something. But please not in a MMO. Even in GW1 they noticed that and added resurrection temples in their dungeons.

I’m not saying dungeons – I’m talking about places like : Fissure of Woe, The Underworld, Urgoz’s Warren and so on.

Elite areas where you went in and if the entire party wiped you got kicked out. It put pressure.
It also made for a few interesting changes.

If implemented into GW2 you might see more “support” play oriented towards ressing downed teammates and trying to keep them alive ( at least in the first months till everything is figured out and reflexes are adjusted).

EcoRI.9273:

In fractals, you don’t really see much corner stacking for bosses, so it should be a non issue. I really hope they introduce split tactics for a good portion of these raids similar to UWSC in gw1.

God I miss splits.

Also – regarding the “open world” issue – The open world is bad. Events there are bad. If you get enough people you can tag and tab and never have to worry about anything.

Since megaservers were introduced you’ll never have a serious open world encounter since you can’t create strict requirements for victory in an environment where anybody can show up.

Simply put – as long as you can have your weight pulled by others the open world will ultimately fail at being challenging.

My first Teq kill – I barely had any idea what was happening or what I had to do – I just went on a server that got those kills and hit things. It was that easy. And this was a few days after it was first introduced. There’s your open world difficulty level. It was somewhat difficult finding the ferry into the eZ mode carry overflow.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Crysto.7089:

I only made two statements.
1. Words mean things to different people.
2. One activity could take the place of another it terms of the fulfillment you get from said activity. (ie. I enjoy activity A because B! ANet introduces activity C which includes B! I now prefer activity C.)

Which of those do you disagree with and, please, explain.

If these are the only points you’ve made then they contribute nothing to the discussion. Please, if you would like to discuss what you’re going for here, PM Gern and hash it out there. Keep the discussion here about raids and their general value and not the nitpicks of the implementation or principle of the thing.

I tried to PM this to you but your inbox is full. Apologies to the thread owner and readers.
——
Your comment contributed nothing to the discussion. If you thought you were preventing some fight or off-topicness, the issue had already been resolved when the OP clarified himself to mean that raids in his topic meant X. You have now successfully derailed the topic.

My quote was not even targeted at Gern, it was targeted at Nyspar (as you will see he was the user I quoted) who claimed to disagree with me when I made no statements that any logical person could disagree with. Obviously, some clarification is needed in that case. To have a reasonable discussion both parties need to strive to understand what is being discussed.

My other statements were questions to further discussion and to perhaps enable the OP to consider his own understanding of the term raid. Posing questions and discussing outcomes is by very definition a conversation.

Your post served no purpose but to incite a response and, well, here it is.

Disagree because of all the elitism that would come with it and not because its not fun to do

Disagree. They shouldn’t be part of the game, and thankfully won’t be. Want raids? Why not play any of the other MMOs that already offer them?

This is the MMO for people that don’t like raids. It was advertized this way from the beginning, and thankfully will remain this way.

Why are raiders so self-obsessed that they cannot handle one game existing that doesn’t cater to them?

JVJD.4912:

Disagree because of all the elitism that would come with it and not because its not fun to do

If the dungeon system stays like this new players won’t have any problem. I did all the dungeons with my engineer with 1,5k ap haven’t been kicked from any dungeon, haven’t failed any dungeon, and pugged 80% of them. All the people I met was friendly except 1( he left when all 4 of us was newcomer to cof path 3). Many people joined my pathes who were experienced even when it was first time( I told them). All of them was helpful and friendly. There’s no elitism if you don’t join an elitist group( make your own nice people only group like me). now I’m a 1,9k ap engi with dungeon master. the dungeon system should stay like this so people will stay friendly to new people.Of course an increase in rewards would be awesome in harder pathes like arah path4,aetherpath). The elitism would only increase if the dungeons raid were much harder or punishing(loosing stuff on dying). All dungeons are doable currently with 5 beginners( only path where i didn’t have an experienced with me in pug group was aetherpath and we still did it in 2 hours).

Maunzi.3764:

This is the MMO for people that don’t like raids. It was advertized this way from the beginning,

it was never advertized like that. people say it was because they turn everything around.
gw2 was never meant to be THE MMO for lazy and bad players.

Maunzi.3764:

and thankfully will remain this way.

so you can already tell us what challenging group content will be?

Maunzi.3764:

Disagree. They shouldn’t be part of the game, and thankfully won’t be. Want raids? Why not play any of the other MMOs that already offer them?

This is the MMO for people that don’t like raids. It was advertized this way from the beginning, and thankfully will remain this way.

Why are raiders so self-obsessed that they cannot handle one game existing that doesn’t cater to them?

It doesn’t have to cater to raiders. And it doesn’t have to call them raids.
GW1 had Elite Areas. Let’s have more of those.

NoTrigger.8396:

it was never advertized like that. people say it was because they turn everything around.
gw2 was never meant to be THE MMO for lazy and bad players.

But sadly that’s mostly what it ended up being.

Harper.4173:

NoTrigger.8396:

it was never advertized like that. people say it was because they turn everything around.
gw2 was never meant to be THE MMO for lazy and bad players.

But sadly that’s mostly what it ended up being.

How so??

This is least toxic game i have played
A person who grinded out their legendary/ a wvw title/ dragon finishers are not lazy players
There is a high level of playing this game, its just up to you to go for it

I would love raids so much.

I also would love if for fractals reset the instance on wipe too but I can imagine why they would not do it because people could just roll for level 1 Mai Trin and champ farm off the inquest guy at the start, for example. Same with the champ effigy at Molten Duo.

Instanced content greater than 5 people sounds like fun. I’d like it!

But only if it’s not zergy.

Crysto.7089:

I tried to PM this to you but your inbox is full. Apologies to the thread owner and readers.

I fixed this, so if you decide to respond to this you may do so by PM.

Crysto.7089:

Your comment contributed nothing to the discussion.

…

Your post served no purpose but to incite a response and, well, here it is.

Except my comment was me doing part of what ANet asked me to do by giving me those scant few words on my nameplate. I’m not a moderator, but I’m asked to watch threads like this one and report to the community team when people are distracting discussions or generally derailing threads and, yes, it’s important that I post comments like this instead of PMing them so everyone knows it’s not okay. If the issue you had with the OP is resolved then great! In that case no response is needed to this post, and I’ll take that as your understanding of the situation. Thanks for the response.

Regarding elitism and raids; I think they should make tier progression like FOTM. This allows for a simple way of filtering out players to be grouped into similar skill levels. Back in gw1, the only reason why I only did UWSC was because of the summoning rocks requirements to join groups. The more rock requirement, the better the group usually. Of course since I was loaded in gw1 from pvping, I just bought 250 summoning rocks off of players and was able to join really good pugs:-D.

unfortunately i think this game is too casual for something like that. I would love raids, i would log in more often if there were raids, loot tiers, etc. Atm you can buy all your gear off the TP, then go wvw or farm skins..or maybe spend some time farming for ascended gear and get a 5% increase in stats. in the end it all doesn’t make a big difference. definitely would be better endgame than sitting in LA and seeing who has the better outfit :P

Dead.7385:

Gern.2978:

First of all, let me just say this: Open world boss fights are not raids, and cannot ever be a replacement for raids

I disagree….

Raids existed way before instancing. EQ was highly touted as the “raid PvE” game before WoW. They didn’t have instances until a long time after, and the only reason they added instancing was because the CS service issues with Kill Stealing etc (which this game doesn’t have).

I would definitely go for pesudo instancing through the guild system though. Have both open world encounters and then ones you enter an instance version through for your guild specifically with a lower player limit or something.

As for 10 man, back when raids were 80 man “two grouping” something wasn’t raiding. It was a casual kill and would not be considered a worthy “raid target”. So the meaning doesn’t hold much until the devs literally make it in the game.

You know the meaning of the word Raid can evolve right?EQ was one of the 1st ever created MMOs.The developers of the MMO genre were still learning.In the modern MMOs when you say raid everyone knows that you are talking about instanced content.Because 1st it’s easier for developers to creat a content for a specific number of people (10/20/30/40) and 2nd there is better control over the group.

Crysto.7089:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Crysto.7089:

Gern.2978:

Open world boss fights are not raids, and cannot ever be a replacement for raids

So what is a raid? It’s an instanced , dungeon type encounter that requires a minimum of 10 people.

I disagree.

The word “raid” has the connotation of difficult group content that requires — as a group — lots of coordination, and — from each member of the group — high levels of skill, and knowledge of game mechanics to defeat.

Open world boss fights in GW2 require either none, or extremely limited amount of this.

The OP has already established the meaning of “raid” in the context of this thread. Your and my opinions are irrelevant regarding the definition, at least in this discussion.

It’s not his opinion.He is right in what he is saying.Search in google the word raid and see what comes up.There is a huge difference forinstance between Tequatl and raid.Tequatl is a world boss with very little added raid mechanics.,but he is definitely not a raid.Raids must have more than 1 boss lol.Also i think Lord Kuru said exactly the same thing as the OP.The only difference is that it’s more compact.