Guild Wars 2

Part of me is cringing to post a topic about this since I know this is so controversial, but with the release of raids, I think it’s necessary. However, let’s try to keep things civil and rational (as best as is possible on the forums, lol).

Personally, I’m torn. As a raid leader, there’s a lot of appeal, but as a veteran WoW player, I’ve seen the community shaming and kitten issues which can arise from these things.

Pros:
– Allow for better decision making on splitting up groups
– Allow for better advice and build/profession suggestions to optimize raid group performance
– Give a self measurement for performance and improvement
– Competition can drive for stronger dps overall
– Can lead players to understand the difference between theoretical dps and practical dps

Cons:
– Players often tend to over-inflate the importance of DPS at the cost of other aspects of a raid
– Player shaming or bragging that disrupt group cohesion and/or push people to quit (the game, the guild, the group, or any combination of those)
– Overactive sense of competition between group members also causes players to over-estimate or under-estimate their worth to groups, which can cause all sorts of drama
– Especially toxic in pugs

What do you think? What are your list of pros/cons and do you think there’s a better alternative?

Pro: would allow my raid team to figure out who isn’t doing enough dps so we can teach them or replace them.

Con: more guilds would be able to beat the raid

DPS meters can and should be implemented in the only content where it is relevant (Raids).

The question is, can the raid content be cleared with subpar dps ?

The only information at our disposal is the gear. But sadly, this is not nearly enough to get a grasp on one’s true dps, wich involves traits, skill rotations and such.

In the same way that we have AR checks before fractals, having dps checks beforehand will only make a clear representation of one’s contribution, and I dare to think people will not be prone to dps check the tank or healer.

Will this shut down build diversity ? No. The requirements emerging from the content are already set up. You NEED dps in order to pass it.

Would it enforce the dps-meta (joke intended) ? I believe it will encourage decent players into becoming better, and prevent the non-hardcore ones from joining the dreaded elitists scumbags.

Heres’s a suggestion I’d like to here what others think of:

Provide a decent PvE target dummy, perhaps to put in guild halls. You could then time to see how fast people can take down the dummy or time yourself to check out a build to get a measure of dps.

While this wouldn’t show dps in a boss fight, it would be very available to organized guild groups who are more likely to use dps measures in a productive ways and would be less likely to be used in a pug where it could be used as an excuse to kick someone.

I think having something like the end-stats page from PvP matches would be cool, except set up so you can view the pages from the other players in your sub-group (or full squad). Shows direct damage done/taken, condi damage done/taken, healing (self), healing (others), boons given (self), boons given (others), conditions removed (self), conditions removed (others).

Exos.3472:

and I dare to think people will not be prone to dps check the tank or healer

You can DPS while taking and/or healing. Everything counts. A lot.

Raids aren’t designed for PUG. You should be Raiding with people you want to invest your time in and develop as a team. I think this alone will reduce the DPS meter kick trend.

You will want to bring those people you know up to speed instead of kicking left and right—but you need to know the data to know when there’s a problem to fix it.

I think its already been talked about plenty. Anet has seen every argument – on both sides – 1000+ times at this point.

Only thing a post like this will do is start another war on the forums.

Blaeys.3102:

I think its already been talked about plenty. Anet has seen every argument – on both sides – 1000+ times at this point.

Only thing a post like this will do is start another war on the forums.

It’s been talked about before raids, but perspectives for many people have changed since then. I know it can be controversial, but I think there’s enough mature people to bring in some good perspectives, even if the trolls do eventually jump in.

There are no cons really. I saw “people will kick players that do not want to improve” listed as a con in the past. This pretty much sums up the “opposition”.

I don’t think a strict DPS meter is necessary.
We’ve already got a pretty good substitute for a DPS meter in the Heart of the Mists, but it uses PvP stats and using food is tedious (you have to leave, eat, come back).

Why not add an “Invincible Golem” area to Guild halls?

The area that they put it in could be set to pulse Might and Fury so we can simulate a group environment.

If we know the HP and Armor values of the Golem, then we could simply time how long it takes to “kill” the Golem several times in a row and estimate our single target dps.

I think that would give us a viable way to quantify our own PvE play and find ways to improve without having to deal with all the negative issues dps meters bring.

I think that dps meters would bring little to no benefit to the game and much like the non existent zerk meta, create a false sense of elitism.

Apolo.5942:

I think that dps meters would bring little to no benefit to the game and much like the non existent zerk meta, create a false sense of elitism.

I disagree, if used correctly it would achieve the exact opposite, because we would be able to actually SEE who is pulling their weight and who is not.

Why is this talked about so much?

There are third party dps meters and from what I understand anet isn’t punishing people for for using them.

So basically what they are saying is. “We don’t support dps meters and don’t believe in the dynamic they cause but if your hellbent on it go ahead”

What more do u want?

DPS meter is absolutely crucial, if someone isn’t putting the effort needed to beat the encounter they need to be gkicked and blacklisted from future runs.

Failure is not an option and can’t be ignored.

jweez.7214:

Why is this talked about so much?

There are third party dps meters and from what I understand anet isn’t punishing people for for using them.

So basically what they are saying is. “We don’t support dps meters and don’t believe in the dynamic they cause but if your hellbent on it go ahead”

What more do u want?

This.

I’m not risking my account on some dodgy third party program, apart from the security issues it’s against the rules.

Cletus Van Damme.2795:

DPS meter is absolutely crucial, if someone isn’t putting the effort needed to beat the encounter they need to be gkicked and blacklisted from future runs.

Failure is not an option and can’t be ignored.

And this is exactly why it shouldent be implemented.
Since people wouldent be given time to improve and instantly guild kicked black listed by alot of people.

Telling someone their dps is terrible and they’re bad IS helping them, they’ll do one of two things.

Most will probably just quit GW2 and find something else to do.
The special few will dig deep, make the necessary changes, improve their rotations and become a better player.

This the special kind of player everyone would want to have on their team.

This is something that I’d love to see implemented with some measure of control.

Raids differ from fractals and dungeons in that there is a baseline average group DPS that must be met in order to have any chance at success. For the Vale Guardian this appears to be reasonably low at around 5-6k DPS (Accounting for phase changes). However for the later bosses the required DPS seems to have risen considerably.

Now if I’m leading a raid, and notice that it’s taking too long for us to reach the second phase (For Vale Guardian I expect phase 1 to be over at around 6:00-6:30 on the timer) then I’m put in the awkward spot of trying to establish exactly where the problem lies.

Having a DPS meter that’s visible to the raid leader, that perhaps only shows members of the same guild would be hugely beneficial as it would allow me to discuss individually with the person and decide how best for them to improve. If they aren’t willing to improve or don’t want to change how they play then I will feel no guilt in politely asking them to step down from the group.

Right now I’m having to make the same difficult decisions, but based on pure conjecture and my own bias instead of actual data which leaves me and the person involved feeling horrible about the whole thing.

The problem with the “Toxic in PuGs” argument is that they explicitly said that it is not PuG content and they want to keep it that way. Add toxicity to it imo, causes less of it to happen. But that is not why I personally want DPS meters.

More of a problem than a solution.

Go in with guildies/player you know. Ask them what their dps is.

DresdenAllblack.1249:

More of a problem than a solution.

Go in with guildies/player you know. Ask them what their dps is.

The problem is; very few players actually know their true DPS.

I estimate my damage using champion risen giants / bosses in Arah which I know the HP values of. However I can almost assure you that my DPS against the Vale Guardian is lower due to environmental reasons. It’s difficult to maintain a good Viper’s Engineer rotation with AOE’s everywhere.

Everyone has the ability to lie or make mistakes, some more than others.

I’ll take software code over human nature every single time.

AnariiUK.7409:

DresdenAllblack.1249:

More of a problem than a solution.

Go in with guildies/player you know. Ask them what their dps is.

The problem is; very few players actually know their true DPS.

I estimate my damage using champion risen giants / bosses in Arah which I know the HP values of. However I can almost assure you that my DPS against the Vale Guardian is lower due to environmental reasons. It’s difficult to maintain a good Viper’s Engineer rotation with AOE’s everywhere.

That and I think Spirit Vale lowers stats. I lose about 1k hp on every character, tanky or zerker, and I don’t know how or why.

That and I think Spirit Vale lowers stats. I lose about 1k hp on every character, tanky or zerker, and I don’t know how or why.

So it’s more difficult.

I completely understand why a DPS meter would be installed, and its the same reason why I would never raid again with a person asking me to ping my gear score. But that’s why I joined the guild I did and why the argument for the meter is still there.

Put it in game and people will either raise their games or not do it at all.

Coming from games like WoW and FFXIV… you barely have rotation in GW2. Why the heck do you need a dps meter?

It’s a useful tool. I’m never going to argue for less features in a game, gimmie more.

SteepledHat.1345:

Coming from games like WoW and FFXIV… you barely have rotation in GW2. Why the heck do you need a dps meter?

It’s very class & build specific, but certain builds are incredibly reliant on good rotations in order to keep up the damage.

FFXIV was awesome in that it highlights a good option for you to combo into, with very little that can go wrong if you simply follow which buttons light up. GW2 feels a little less intuitive as mostly every skill on your bar is a DPS loss, and the next best skill for you to use may not even be visible (It might be on your other weapon/kit/attunement) so you have to keep something of a mental note about when the skill will be off cooldown. There’s loads of room for error basically.

jweez.7214:

Why is this talked about so much?

There are third party dps meters and from what I understand anet isn’t punishing people for for using them.

So basically what they are saying is. “We don’t support dps meters and don’t believe in the dynamic they cause but if your hellbent on it go ahead”

What more do u want?

To my knowledge, these DPS meters only show you your own DPS, so there’s no way to tell what DPS other people are doing.

And maybe that’s ok…

Cletus Van Damme.2795:

Most will probably just quit GW2 and find something else to do.
The special few will dig deep, make the necessary changes, improve their rotations and become a better player.

This the special kind of player everyone would want to have on their team.

You basically seem to be providing your own counter-arguments.

This is not a hard-core game that requires DPS meters for people to beat content and that includes Raids. Anet balances content around this basic premise. I sincerely doubt that you want DPS meters because without it, you won’t be able to finish your raids. As you stated, you just want to weed out sub par players; i.e, you are an elitist.

That’s fine but don’t try to enforce your own values onto others. We need more things that bring people together in this game (I’m looking at you empty HoT maps), not things to isolate people further.

Cletus Van Damme.2795:

DPS meter is absolutely crucial, if someone isn’t putting the effort needed to beat the encounter they need to be gkicked and blacklisted from future runs.

Failure is not an option and can’t be ignored.

@ Dahkeus

Ask yourself, are all the pros you stated worth the cons? Do you really want scores of people like the above poster getting their hands on an Anet supported DPS meter? This is a game; not some black-ops mission to rescue a hostage.

@ Cletus, stay crazy.

Cletus Van Damme.2795:

Telling someone their dps is terrible and they’re bad IS helping them, they’ll do one of two things.

Most will probably just quit GW2 and find something else to do.
The special few will dig deep, make the necessary changes, improve their rotations and become a better player.

This the special kind of player everyone would want to have on their team.

Wow that’s a good way to think about it. Of course I hope that those “few” that keep playing have deep pockets and buy everything from the gem store.

Samhayn.2385:

Cletus Van Damme.2795:

Telling someone their dps is terrible and they’re bad IS helping them, they’ll do one of two things.

Most will probably just quit GW2 and find something else to do.
The special few will dig deep, make the necessary changes, improve their rotations and become a better player.

This the special kind of player everyone would want to have on their team.

Wow that’s a good way to think about it. Of course I hope that those “few” that keep playing have deep pockets and buy everything from the gem store.

Except for buying core game and hot I never spent a dime on this game for gear or gold. I’m a well above average player and I have good DPS.

Leodon.1564:

Cletus Van Damme.2795:

DPS meter is absolutely crucial, if someone isn’t putting the effort needed to beat the encounter they need to be gkicked and blacklisted from future runs.

Failure is not an option and can’t be ignored.

@ Dahkeus

Ask yourself, are all the pros you stated worth the cons? Do you really want scores of people like the above poster getting their hands on an Anet supported DPS meter? This is a game; not some black-ops mission to rescue a hostage.

@ Cletus, stay crazy.

But it is, tho. You do /supposedly/ save a Squad.

Leodon.1564:

Cletus Van Damme.2795:

Most will probably just quit GW2 and find something else to do.
The special few will dig deep, make the necessary changes, improve their rotations and become a better player.

This the special kind of player everyone would want to have on their team.

you are an elitist.

I know I’m being elitist asking for dps meter and leader boards but I also advocate for difficulty modes and LFG seen in almost every other mmo. I’m not mumbling “bearbow” under my breath while greedily clutching content to my chest terrified that casuals will pollute it with their cooties.

In general I look at anyone and anything that asks me to use a DPS meter as the same thing as saying a liar, a cheat, and a sloth riding on everyone else’s coattails.

Being entirely frank any conversation about a DPS meter that doesn’t end with a firm “negatory” is not going to get any kind of reception by me that’s remotely civil.

On the other hand, I do understand the laziness that leads to their use. IF your group of people are not running the right traits, skills, weapons, and armor to do the task at hand, that’ a real problem.

If you think you’re resolving that by using a DPS meter you’re not even on the same page as the problem. You’re having some sort of delusion that spreadsheets are a productive activity when you should be getting people to use the right traits, weapons, skills, and armor necessary to accomplish the task at hand.

DPS meters are nothing except an abusive tool for trolls and the most low-life players a community has to exclude the rest of the community from the game by the low-life’s sheer incompetence.

A game that allows DPS meters deserves to fail for all of the abuse it has then allowed and in fact promoted as a result.

Then there should also be separate servers: pvp, pve and raiding servers with the raiding servers having a DPS meter … this whole argument is ridiculous. If I wanted to play WoW I’d play WoW …

Cletus Van Damme.2795:

Leodon.1564:

Cletus Van Damme.2795:

Most will probably just quit GW2 and find something else to do.
The special few will dig deep, make the necessary changes, improve their rotations and become a better player.

This the special kind of player everyone would want to have on their team.

you are an elitist.

I know I’m being elitist asking for dps meter and leader boards but I also advocate for difficulty modes and LFG seen in almost every other mmo. I’m not mumbling “bearbow” under my breath while greedily clutching content to my chest terrified that casuals will pollute it with their cooties.

Your reply is too sensible. I prefer the crazy Cletus so that we’re reminded of why DPS meters are a bad idea.

Edit: Actually I do mumble “bearbow” under my breath so I guess I’m the crazy one :P .

Eirdyne.9843:

In general I look at anyone and anything that asks me to use a DPS meter as the same thing as saying a liar, a cheat, and a sloth riding on everyone else’s coattails.

Being entirely frank any conversation about a DPS meter that doesn’t end with a firm “negatory” is not going to get any kind of reception by me that’s remotely civil.

On the other hand, I do understand the laziness that leads to their use. IF your group of people are not running the right traits, skills, weapons, and armor to do the task at hand, that’ a real problem.

If you think you’re resolving that by using a DPS meter you’re not even on the same page as the problem. You’re having some sort of delusion that spreadsheets are a productive activity when you should be getting people to use the right traits, weapons, skills, and armor necessary to accomplish the task at hand.

DPS meters are nothing except an abusive tool for trolls and the most low-life players a community has to exclude the rest of the community from the game by the low-life’s sheer incompetence.

A game that allows DPS meters deserves to fail for all of the abuse it has then allowed and in fact promoted as a result.

Do you know what your dps is? How?

Answer: You don’t. Nobody truly knows what their dps is without the use of a tool for it. You can, as someone mentioned, try and estimate it against a risen giant or something, but that’s not truly applicable to a complex fight like vale guardian.

Ultimately, you might think your dps is great…but in fact it might not actually be all that great. If you had a tool that allowed you to see that, you could then take a look at your procedures, rotations, and general handling of the fight and try to make it better.

There’s a good reason that in almost every single aspect of business or production or anything where a goal is set, accurate evaluations are absolutely vital. Without the evaluation, there’s no quantitative way to figure out how to approach a goal. It’s possible to do estimation, but human nature makes it nearly impossible to truly do an accurate self-estimate, even if you honestly are trying to.

Trolls and griefers will absolutely use a dps parser to troll and grief, but it’s not like they’re cutting back on trolling and griefing just because they don’t have a dps parser to use. The potential for abuse of a tool by a couple rotten players is not an argument against the tool itself. If it were, you could argue against the existence of siege (allows you to grief by burning supply), the ability to make multiple accounts (allows you to grief by spying), the existence of cc that moves mobs (allows you to grief by yanking mobs away from your party), and the existence of PvP at all (where else is better to grief than in PvP).

Warlord.9074:

Samhayn.2385:

Cletus Van Damme.2795:

Telling someone their dps is terrible and they’re bad IS helping them, they’ll do one of two things.

Most will probably just quit GW2 and find something else to do.
The special few will dig deep, make the necessary changes, improve their rotations and become a better player.

This the special kind of player everyone would want to have on their team.

Wow that’s a good way to think about it. Of course I hope that those “few” that keep playing have deep pockets and buy everything from the gem store.

Except for buying core game and hot I never spent a dime on this game for gear or gold. I’m a well above average player and I have good DPS.

Yeah, not my point. This game is a business if you make the game toxic to the point that only a few people play then the game folds. Meaning the few people left would have to spend a load of money to keep 8th up and running.

Exos.3472:

DPS meters can and should be implemented in the only content where it is relevant (Raids).

The question is, can the raid content be cleared with subpar dps ?

The only information at our disposal is the gear. But sadly, this is not nearly enough to get a grasp on one’s true dps, wich involves traits, skill rotations and such.

In the same way that we have AR checks before fractals, having dps checks beforehand will only make a clear representation of one’s contribution, and I dare to think people will not be prone to dps check the tank or healer.

Will this shut down build diversity ? No. The requirements emerging from the content are already set up. You NEED dps in order to pass it.

Would it enforce the dps-meta (joke intended) ? I believe it will encourage decent players into becoming better, and prevent the non-hardcore ones from joining the dreaded elitists scumbags.

Though I generally disagree with having an Anet supported DPS meter, Anet is encouraging the use of one (knowingly or not) by implementing hard DPS checks like enrage timers. Maybe in the case of Raids, it is a necessary evil.

If DPS meters are implemented though, some people will be left out of raids that otherwise would have gotten in. If you are in favor of having an Anet supported DPS meter, you must also be willing to be left out of a raid so that you know how it feels to be on the opposite end and thus get a better understanding of both sides of the argument. (Since these people wouldn’t bother to come to these forums to read up on a DPS meter thread.)

Ahhh. DPS meters. A mechanic that can help all but is instead abused to mistreat other players are spread elitism. Its a great thing and I would love to have it, but as a mostly PUG player I am forced to cower in the face of the untold horrors it would release on an otherwise laid back community. Besides, I personally fear it will just force the meta even more in one direction, something we already see with engineers and revenants.

Leodon.1564:

Cletus Van Damme.2795:

Leodon.1564:

Cletus Van Damme.2795:

Most will probably just quit GW2 and find something else to do.
The special few will dig deep, make the necessary changes, improve their rotations and become a better player.

This the special kind of player everyone would want to have on their team.

you are an elitist.

I know I’m being elitist asking for dps meter and leader boards but I also advocate for difficulty modes and LFG seen in almost every other mmo. I’m not mumbling “bearbow” under my breath while greedily clutching content to my chest terrified that casuals will pollute it with their cooties.

Your reply is too sensible. I prefer the crazy Cletus so that we’re reminded of why DPS meters are a bad idea.

Edit: Actually I do mumble “bearbow” under my breath so I guess I’m the crazy one :P .

I know I sound crazy advocating DPS meters and leaderboards at the same time as difficulty modes and lfg. I’m getting flak from both sides, you should see the whisperS im getting!

But I think its the best for the health of the game and community, most of these features really improved other games when they were brought in.

Leodon.1564:

Maybe in the case of Raids, it is a necessary evil.

It’s not an evil at all. Basically every complaint against it is because it would “cause elitism and toxicity” but that’s not the fault of the tool. That’s like saying stopwatches shouldn’t be allowed to record sprint times for professional sports players because it might cause some people to be excluded. When really it’s just people trying to get an accurate measure of something that is necessary to know.

DPS Meters WILL produce elitism and reduce viable builds, just the research done by done some guilds alone has had a massively negative effect on the community, producing narrow-minded approaches to the game, rather than a culture of exciting explorative fun. If we go down that road then Anet might as well just pick our traits for us, since all we would want is the min/max for each class.

DPS meters made WoW a static game. People would reject you because your class would pull as little as 2% less damage than another class, so they wouldn’t take you.

However, a personal DPS meter would be good. Then u could see if you are improving or not. You could also test and try out builds and gear. Or perhaps a Raid DPS meter would be nice. After a boss (or wipe) the average DPS for the entire raid might help some raid groups zero in on what’s going wrong for them?

The problem is that most people cannot read a DPS properly, as well as, factors such utility, healing, support, control simply don’t get valued as highly as they should because people just look at the DPS meter.

The answer does not have to be complicated. Build meters into raids – meters that give information on basically everything the UI can get you relevant information on. Damage, healing, heck number of dodges if possible, number of utility skills used.

Put it all in there, make it something exclusive to raids, and let the community do the rest. There are people who are afraid of GW2 being too complicated for a DPS meter to reflect combat accurately… so give lots of information in addition to damage. Problem solved.

This doesn’t have to be one of those “all or nothing” situations, where meters have to proliferate across every facet of the game or they must never exist. The main need for them is in hair-trigger content (e.g. raids) and I’m sorry but if you want to attract any serious raiders from other games, none of them are going to come over to a game where meters are nonexistent, if not a bannable offense, when they can easily play tons of other games that endorse them readily.

lets leave these “meters” to the mmos that have crappy customization and are macro fests:wow, ff14, everything else that requires little actual effort in a real combat scenario.

problem is actually with the raid, ive failed with mallis @gorsy and all i saw was ff14 raid design, nothing more, the gw2 aspects were ripped from and it should be handed over to more gw2 oriented dev hands

You need healing meters too…

I asked about it in the API section, but it was a “not on the table at this time” answer. Hopefully they get to work on releasing the stuff needed so players can make something official.

dps meters are toxic.

setdog.1592:

dps meters are toxic.

Yes.

Looking at it holistically it’s very clear that overall such features do far more harm than any niche of good a small percentage of players tout they do. I understand their benefit and have used them in the past, but I’m not for a moment foolish enough to even try and convince anyone that they provide more positives than negatives to a game.

Additionally, personally I think it’s ridiculous to even suggest such a mechanic is now needed, and base such an argument solely around one tiny part of the game: Raids.