Let's talk about it: DPS Meters

Let's talk about it: DPS Meters

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Fermi.2409

Fermi.2409

In general I look at anyone and anything that asks me to use a DPS meter as the same thing as saying a liar, a cheat, and a sloth riding on everyone else’s coattails.

Why the hate? Did a DPS meter kill your mother or something?

On the other hand, I do understand the laziness that leads to their use. IF your group of people are not running the right traits, skills, weapons, and armor to do the task at hand, that’ a real problem.

The laziness? How, exactly, does using a DPS meter make you lazy?

Not to mention, how are you going to know what the right traits, skills, or weapons are if you aren’t able to measure your performance objectively?

If you think you’re resolving that by using a DPS meter you’re not even on the same page as the problem. You’re having some sort of delusion that spreadsheets are a productive activity when you should be getting people to use the right traits, weapons, skills, and armor necessary to accomplish the task at hand.

And how do you get people to use the right traits, weapons, and tools if you have no way of proving what that is? The spreadsheets are a great base, but physical reality might prevent some of their implementation.

DPS meters are nothing except an abusive tool for trolls and the most low-life players a community has to exclude the rest of the community from the game by the low-life’s sheer incompetence.

Again, why the hate? You have this ridiculously negative view of DPS meters and the people who use them. It’s ridiculous.

A game that allows DPS meters deserves to fail for all of the abuse it has then allowed and in fact promoted as a result.

I honestly can’t tell if you’re trolling or what

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Posted by: Mallis.4295

Mallis.4295

DPS meters made WoW a static game. People would reject you because your class would pull as little as 2% less damage than another class, so they wouldn’t take you.

I’m pretty sure you never played WoW and pulled that out of your kitten . In WoW no one discriminates based on classes they do it based on logs and meters unless they’re a moron. If rogue 99th percentile does 10% less DPS than druid but rogue 95th percentile does 5% more than druid 90th percentile and you have 95th percentile logs you will get takes over a 90th percentile druid. So much comes down to execution and basically every class is good if you can do 95th percentile or higher.

In GW2 people currently discriminate based on classes for raids. For the 2nd boss Guardians/Necros/Thieves have no place and will never get into a serious group because they are perceived to have lower DPS (and afaik they do) and there is no way to prove differently.

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Posted by: Labjax.2465

Labjax.2465

DPS meters made WoW a static game. People would reject you because your class would pull as little as 2% less damage than another class, so they wouldn’t take you.

I’m pretty sure you never played WoW and pulled that out of your kitten . In WoW no one discriminates based on classes they do it based on logs and meters unless they’re a moron. If rogue 99th percentile does 10% less DPS than druid but rogue 95th percentile does 5% more than druid 90th percentile and you have 95th percentile logs you will get takes over a 90th percentile druid. So much comes down to execution and basically every class is good if you can do 95th percentile or higher.

In GW2 people currently discriminate based on classes for raids. For the 2nd boss Guardians/Necros/Thieves have no place and will never get into a serious group because they are perceived to have lower DPS (and afaik they do) and there is no way to prove differently.

Keep in mind a lot of the DPS meter hate is probably coming from people who left games with them feeling disenfranchised and came to GW2 in part to avoid them. So the irrational hatred is going to be strong in those people.

I don’t know that it’s actually possible to reason with such people, meaning no offense to their intelligence. Just that if the hatred is strong enough, there may be no room for consideration of other possibilities.

Somehow people turn a blind eye to the fact that GW2 already had, and has, toxic people in it, who act elitist with very poor justification for it. The only thing that would change with meters in terms of toxicity (in content where they matter / would be useful) is that people would be toxic with accurate information, instead of with inaccurate information.

But try to sell that to someone who hates meters. They will just tell you that meters are the herald of armageddon because they had a few bad experiences with them. Meanwhile they’re getting kicked out of a group for reasons that aren’t even grounded in solid evidence.

Makes my head spin. O.o

Or words to that effect.

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Posted by: AnariiUK.7409

AnariiUK.7409

Trying to look at things objectively, it seems that perhaps the largest criticism against a damage/utility meter is the unavoidable toxicity that would arrive with its introdution.

Would players perhaps feel more comfortable if damage measurements were not viewable by anyone outside of your guild/friend list. That way it’s unlikely to be abused in a restrictive manner (Assuming you’ve chosen your friends wisely!), yet can still be utilised as a useful means of pinpointing where improvements can be made.

In general I look at anyone and anything that asks me to use a DPS meter as the same thing as saying a liar, a cheat, and a sloth riding on everyone else’s coattails.

I fully agree and yet this is my main reason for advocating the introdution of some kind of damage meter. We’re fed so much information that leads to class / build bias, that at the end of the day trying to ask a guildmate about their damage quickly boils down to “I’ve read that your current weapon/class/build isn’t very good, and I have a sneaky suspicion that you’re not pulling your weight here, could we have a quick chat?”. Which is a horrible thing to say to anyone without any real evidence to back it up.

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Posted by: Warlord.9074

Warlord.9074

I read that nomads was best. Going to go signet guard with nomads and get mad if anyone questions it and come on forum and complain then quit game.

“Just press 2 to win all the dps was us cuz we’re a
warrior and we’re the best class” Eugene

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Posted by: Fermi.2409

Fermi.2409

I read that nomads was best. Going to go signet guard with nomads and get mad if anyone questions it and come on forum and complain then quit game.

Make sure you use staff, though. It’s the best weapon in the game

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

dps meters are toxic.

There are more benefits to personal use dps and healing meters, than there are the drawbacks of the occasional " they didn’t let me play in the sand box with them today" forum post…

Ascended gear is expensive overall and they will be required going forward in raids. Anet cannot just keep players guessing with numbers considering they want “roles”, maximum character efficiency in said “role(s)” and max effort from players.

Sorry, but “screening” of players is already happening in raids and top spvp teams so find a different team, make your own or don’t do said content or activity if it is that much of an issue with you.

Meters also allow players to help others take the costly guesswork out of improving their characters build and potential by trial and error… Number bugs could be found more easily because of transparency… Also, there is nothing wrong with knowing the numbers to things, and I guarantee that even people like you would use it, on some level, to build your character if meters were available.

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Posted by: ZudetGambeous.9573

ZudetGambeous.9573

I think Anet doesn’t want DPS meters in the game because it highlights their poor ability to balance different classes. I’ve been running Janx, a dps meter overlay from the overwolf app contest. It is completely legal but you can’t use or see your chat while running it since it screenshots your combat log and computes your dps.

Over this week i’ve tried running 3 different classes in the raids. Against vale guardian this is what i’m seeing:

Condition Reaper: 10-11k dps, no utility
D/F Tempest: 17-18k dps, 2k heals/s, high aura uptime, 6 group might stacks
PS Warrior: 12-13k dps, 25 might, 150 power, 150 precision, Fury, Warbanner, regen

Tempest and warrior are roughly equal, i’d say the warrior provides more group dps up until you have 2 of them and then tempest obviously takes the lead. Reaper was the problem. My guild was constantly hitting the enrage timer while I was running condition reaper. Luckily I was running a DPS meter, saw what I thought was too low dps and told my guild I was switching out classes. Once I did we downed the boss pretty quickly.

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

DPS meters made WoW a static game. People would reject you because your class would pull as little as 2% less damage than another class, so they wouldn’t take you.

I’m pretty sure you never played WoW and pulled that out of your kitten . In WoW no one discriminates based on classes they do it based on logs and meters unless they’re a moron. If rogue 99th percentile does 10% less DPS than druid but rogue 95th percentile does 5% more than druid 90th percentile and you have 95th percentile logs you will get takes over a 90th percentile druid. So much comes down to execution and basically every class is good if you can do 95th percentile or higher.

In GW2 people currently discriminate based on classes for raids. For the 2nd boss Guardians/Necros/Thieves have no place and will never get into a serious group because they are perceived to have lower DPS (and afaik they do) and there is no way to prove differently.

Keep in mind a lot of the DPS meter hate is probably coming from people who left games with them feeling disenfranchised and came to GW2 in part to avoid them. So the irrational hatred is going to be strong in those people.

I don’t know that it’s actually possible to reason with such people, meaning no offense to their intelligence. Just that if the hatred is strong enough, there may be no room for consideration of other possibilities.

Somehow people turn a blind eye to the fact that GW2 already had, and has, toxic people in it, who act elitist with very poor justification for it. The only thing that would change with meters in terms of toxicity (in content where they matter / would be useful) is that people would be toxic with accurate information, instead of with inaccurate information.

But try to sell that to someone who hates meters. They will just tell you that meters are the herald of armageddon because they had a few bad experiences with them. Meanwhile they’re getting kicked out of a group for reasons that aren’t even grounded in solid evidence.

Makes my head spin. O.o

Well reasoned. Emotion is a major motivator for people, and can cloud reasoning.

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Posted by: Walhalla.5473

Walhalla.5473

Over this week i’ve tried running 3 different classes in the raids. Against vale guardian this is what i’m seeing:

Condition Reaper: 10-11k dps, no utility
D/F Tempest: 17-18k dps, 2k heals/s, high aura uptime, 6 group might stacks
PS Warrior: 12-13k dps, 25 might, 150 power, 150 precision, Fury, Warbanner, regen

10-11k DPS are good enough. If you didn’t kill it before Enrage hits than your Group messed up different Mechanics of the Boss, like getting Ported or just putting everyone in the Lightning Strike. To kill the Boss everyone needs to do round about 5 – 6k DPS which isn’t much.
I guess your Group just payed more attention to the Mechanics, especially if the HP of the Guardian went down much faster.

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Posted by: ZudetGambeous.9573

ZudetGambeous.9573

Over this week i’ve tried running 3 different classes in the raids. Against vale guardian this is what i’m seeing:

Condition Reaper: 10-11k dps, no utility
D/F Tempest: 17-18k dps, 2k heals/s, high aura uptime, 6 group might stacks
PS Warrior: 12-13k dps, 25 might, 150 power, 150 precision, Fury, Warbanner, regen

10-11k DPS are good enough. If you didn’t kill it before Enrage hits than your Group messed up different Mechanics of the Boss, like getting Ported or just putting everyone in the Lightning Strike. To kill the Boss everyone needs to do round about 5 – 6k DPS which isn’t much.
I guess your Group just payed more attention to the Mechanics, especially if the HP of the Guardian went down much faster.

6k dps is just taking his health and dividing by the enrage timer and number of group members right? I mean you have 2 minutes where you can do no dps cause he is split so I think it is actually closer to 10k dps what you need for the actual fight. I also have no idea what my group members dps was, as I was the only one using a meter.

But the difference between 10k dps and 18k dps over 6 minutes of hitting the vale guardian is an extra 2.8 million damage. That is 10% of his health or ~30s off the fight time.

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Posted by: Walhalla.5473

Walhalla.5473

Over this week i’ve tried running 3 different classes in the raids. Against vale guardian this is what i’m seeing:

Condition Reaper: 10-11k dps, no utility
D/F Tempest: 17-18k dps, 2k heals/s, high aura uptime, 6 group might stacks
PS Warrior: 12-13k dps, 25 might, 150 power, 150 precision, Fury, Warbanner, regen

10-11k DPS are good enough. If you didn’t kill it before Enrage hits than your Group messed up different Mechanics of the Boss, like getting Ported or just putting everyone in the Lightning Strike. To kill the Boss everyone needs to do round about 5 – 6k DPS which isn’t much.
I guess your Group just payed more attention to the Mechanics, especially if the HP of the Guardian went down much faster.

6k dps is just taking his health and dividing by the enrage timer and number of group members right? I mean you have 2 minutes where you can do no dps cause he is split so I think it is actually closer to 10k dps what you need for the actual fight. I also have no idea what my group members dps was, as I was the only one using a meter.

But the difference between 10k dps and 18k dps over 6 minutes of hitting the vale guardian is an extra 2.8 million damage. That is 10% of his health or ~30s off the fight time.

Just taking his health would be 4.5k, without counting the Intermission Phases. And if most of your Party Members can do something like 10 k or more than the Reason why you didn’t kill it in time was because of some Mechanic hicc-ups.
These are really big DPS Losses and JanX isn’t really able to let us see it because after a few seconds the Program seems to stop calculating otherwise it would have showed me some DPS Crashes after being ported far away, but it just went don little and stayed there before attacking the Boss again.

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Posted by: ZudetGambeous.9573

ZudetGambeous.9573

Over this week i’ve tried running 3 different classes in the raids. Against vale guardian this is what i’m seeing:

Condition Reaper: 10-11k dps, no utility
D/F Tempest: 17-18k dps, 2k heals/s, high aura uptime, 6 group might stacks
PS Warrior: 12-13k dps, 25 might, 150 power, 150 precision, Fury, Warbanner, regen

10-11k DPS are good enough. If you didn’t kill it before Enrage hits than your Group messed up different Mechanics of the Boss, like getting Ported or just putting everyone in the Lightning Strike. To kill the Boss everyone needs to do round about 5 – 6k DPS which isn’t much.
I guess your Group just payed more attention to the Mechanics, especially if the HP of the Guardian went down much faster.

6k dps is just taking his health and dividing by the enrage timer and number of group members right? I mean you have 2 minutes where you can do no dps cause he is split so I think it is actually closer to 10k dps what you need for the actual fight. I also have no idea what my group members dps was, as I was the only one using a meter.

But the difference between 10k dps and 18k dps over 6 minutes of hitting the vale guardian is an extra 2.8 million damage. That is 10% of his health or ~30s off the fight time.

Just taking his health would be 4.5k, without counting the Intermission Phases. And if most of your Party Members can do something like 10 k or more than the Reason why you didn’t kill it in time was because of some Mechanic hicc-ups.
These are really big DPS Losses and JanX isn’t really able to let us see it because after a few seconds the Program seems to stop calculating otherwise it would have showed me some DPS Crashes after being ported far away, but it just went don little and stayed there before attacking the Boss again.

Hence why a proper DPS meter would be nice.

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Posted by: Altoid.9104

Altoid.9104

I would love a personal dps meter, I don’t even care about seeing other peoples numbers. It is frustrating that I love to play Necro so much, but I am unsure exactly how much damage I am dealing. I have this feeling it is more than peoples perceptions point to, but I can’t really prove it.

Is it true that the memory reading DPS meter is legit? I would be fine using it if Anet really didn’t ban people over it.

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Posted by: Pindelfix.1597

Pindelfix.1597

I would love a personal dps meter, I don’t even care about seeing other peoples numbers. It is frustrating that I love to play Necro so much, but I am unsure exactly how much damage I am dealing. I have this feeling it is more than peoples perceptions point to, but I can’t really prove it.

Is it true that the memory reading DPS meter is legit? I would be fine using it if Anet really didn’t ban people over it.

Yea, it d be great to at least be able to have your own dps curves/diagrams/statistics to be able to analyze your own performance after a fractal, raid, PvE event, or whatever. If you wanna know the stats of someone else you d just have to ask. Those who wouldn’t use such an addon could simply… say nothing. End of story. End of whole debate. I think SWTOR has implemented a good way in dealing with those issues.

Personally… I d welcome the invention of addons like recount, or other things that even read out dps/healing, etc from the whole current party in real time. I find the philosophy great to NOT fear knowledge, numbers, statistics. What people make out of it is often bad… indeed. I m quite aware of the fact that i m by far not representing the majority of the GW2 playerbase and thats why i d suggest the solution already mentioned by some here. I dont see any harm in letting a player know his own statistics/metrics are and sharing with other ppl if all sides agree.

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Posted by: Gerrark.9870

Gerrark.9870

“DPS meters would promote toxic behavior.” I have to ask: do you truly, truly believe that the kind of people who would use DPS meters exclusively to make others miserable are the same kind of people that, before them, were paragons of fair play and fun? Do you actually think, deep down, that DPS meters, and those alone, are what will tip the scales and suddenly cause once thoughtful, patient players to become raging jerks? If so, I cannot stop you. But I have no idea how you could have such a view.

DPS meters are a tool that measure your effectiveness in a combat scenario, the end. They measure your performance, and as such, allow you, and possibly others, to gauge whether or not you can contribute enough to the group to meet your goal. Is it fun finding out you can’t perform up to snuff? Does it feel good learning you’re the weakest link, and you have to change how you play or be replaced with a player who can do better? Of course not. No one would like that, and only a liar would say they wouldn’t mind. But an equally valid question, I feel, is this: how fair is it if say, 7 or 8 or even 9 of the people in the raid are performing their hearts out, working hard towards success, doing everything they can to meet the goal, but they’re being held back by one or a few players who just don’t care? Who play with stats they know hardly contribute, using weapons or traits that only help THEM survive, rather than output the support or damage necessary to win? If we look at this problem purely mathematically, clearly the second scenario is much worse. Several people are sacrificing their hard work because a few people can’t be kitten d, or perhaps don’t even know they’re not performing well in the first place.

DPS meters would and will, if implemented, get people kicked. It will cause hurt feelings in guilds, and perhaps even make some friends get mad at each other. But is it because a DPS meter exists, or because the people using it now know that the people they were grouping with were simply riding off of their hard work all the time, and understandably, can’t be bothered to play with someone who doesn’t care to work anywhere near as hard as them?

Patient players who want to help others get better exist, and would continue to do so if a DPS meter would. Jerks who will take any excuse to hurt another player already exist, and would continue to do so if DPS meters existed. Literally the only thing that would change if DPS meters were in game would be that we’d have hard data on how we are performing as players. Which you absolutely cannot deny would help players complete raids, considering our best way to identify weak links now is “spend several encounters watching certain players like a hawk trying to discern weakness and then make a decision based on data that will always be anecdotal at best, and biased at worst.”

On a tangentially related note, I agree with Zudet—I believe the reason why Anet is so against dps meters is it will allow us to see quite clearly how unbalanced their game is. Since again, all we can really do at the moment is speculate, and the meters would allow us hard evidence to finally say things like “This class/build, even when being performed perfectly, is 10k dps behind everyone else. Anet wtf”

On a closing note: there’s literally hundreds of thousands of millions of people who play this game. There’s also a block function. If someone is using a dps meter to be a jerk, block them and start your own. If they’re using it to make a fair point about how you’re not contributing and you’re mad about that, sorry—You’re just being selfish.

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Posted by: Nexxa.7306

Nexxa.7306

There’s another game with this issue. That game’s devs don’t endorse their use and they’re technically against the rules but they only act towards users if someone’s harassing someone through data they gained using one. Good system if you ask me.

It also keeps you from having to deal with that one moron pug who spams team chat with his recount numbers like his… ego’s size behind the computer depended on his doing it.

It’s a true shame that supidity is not painful.

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Posted by: Kyon.9735

Kyon.9735

Anet is pushing GW2 to be a game where casual gamers won’t get left behind by the more active gamers in terms of item progression. Having a DPS meter contradicts their goal as it forces people to grind for Ascended items and play by the meta without exploring other possible builds.

I don’t support any kind of elitist. I don’t ever want to go back to when farming dungeons was all about stacking warriors and a guardian, requiring each and every party member to link their full Zerk gears or else you’ll get kicked.

You’ll be kicking out casual gamers in favor of hard core gamers by implementing this.

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Posted by: Fay.2357

Fay.2357

Anet is pushing GW2 to be a game where casual gamers won’t get left behind by the more active gamers in terms of item progression. Having a DPS meter contradicts their goal as it forces people to grind for Ascended items and play by the meta without exploring other possible builds.

I don’t support any kind of elitist. I don’t ever want to go back to when farming dungeons was all about stacking warriors and a guardian, requiring each and every party member to link their full Zerk gears or else you’ll get kicked.

You’ll be kicking out casual gamers in favor of hard core gamers by implementing this.

No, you’re confusing casual with bad and lazy. Casual players can still be good, can still strive towards excellence and be the best that they can be. Players like that want a dps meter so that they can effectively monitor themselves to try and improve.

Lazy and bad players don’t want to be questioned. They don’t want to be questioned on their build, on their gear, on how they play, on the rotations they use. They want people to just ignore whether or not they’re contributing, and be carried by everyone else that does care. These players don’t want a DPS meter because it exposes how bad they are.

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Posted by: Skigit.3715

Skigit.3715

I think Anet doesn’t want DPS meters in the game because it highlights their poor ability to balance different classes. I’ve been running Janx, a dps meter overlay from the overwolf app contest. It is completely legal but you can’t use or see your chat while running it since it screenshots your combat log and computes your dps.

Is the Janx DPS meter still available? I searched everywhere but couldnt find it.

I’ve been trying to find a legal one for awhile now but cant get GW2DPS to work since HOT.

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Posted by: David.5974

David.5974

If you want dps meter only for PERSONAL usage… then go to pvp lobby, focus indestructible golem and kill him 3 times without pause. Count how much time you need to kill him 3 times and here you have your dps. You can upgrading your build to make best time. I think that time around 30-35sec is good. (Yea if you share might to other team mates you can decrease 1sec every 5 might meaby )

I hate idea to have dmg meter in encountres. But make more diffrent test dummy with timers, spells(reflect training) moving (torment) and add skills, this is for me the way how make effective build and improve (meaby only my) gameplay :-) yea and separate this test dummy from pvp lobby

“Doctor suggest me, to stop play with engi because my fingers are broken.
So.. I start play scrapper. "

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Posted by: ZudetGambeous.9573

ZudetGambeous.9573

I think Anet doesn’t want DPS meters in the game because it highlights their poor ability to balance different classes. I’ve been running Janx, a dps meter overlay from the overwolf app contest. It is completely legal but you can’t use or see your chat while running it since it screenshots your combat log and computes your dps.

Is the Janx DPS meter still available? I searched everywhere but couldnt find it.

I’ve been trying to find a legal one for awhile now but cant get GW2DPS to work since HOT.

http://www.gw2dmg-meter.de/

Yep it is still available and working.

It has issues when you stop combat and restart. If you stop attacking for more than 3 seconds it gets confused and your dps stops dropping. It seems fairly accurate during sustained combat though. I’d love something that works better but this is the best legal option i’ve found.

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Posted by: Kyon.9735

Kyon.9735

Anet is pushing GW2 to be a game where casual gamers won’t get left behind by the more active gamers in terms of item progression. Having a DPS meter contradicts their goal as it forces people to grind for Ascended items and play by the meta without exploring other possible builds.

I don’t support any kind of elitist. I don’t ever want to go back to when farming dungeons was all about stacking warriors and a guardian, requiring each and every party member to link their full Zerk gears or else you’ll get kicked.

You’ll be kicking out casual gamers in favor of hard core gamers by implementing this.

No, you’re confusing casual with bad and lazy. Casual players can still be good, can still strive towards excellence and be the best that they can be. Players like that want a dps meter so that they can effectively monitor themselves to try and improve.

Now am I? Please listen to my side of story.

I consider myself a casual gamer as I can only allot 1~2 hours at most every night because of work and other IRL stuff.

Let’s say the DPS meter was implemented and meta builds came out. Believe me, PEOPLE WILL WANT TO ONLY PLAY WITH META BUILD USERS UNLESS YOU ARE IN A GOOD GUILD. If for example a full Sinister/Viper set completely becomes the meta, this will require people to finish living stories and do achievements because you can’t just buy them from TP or from laurel vendor. While casuals are busy wasting their limited time doing living stories, they are getting left behind with raids.

Lazy and bad players don’t want to be questioned. They don’t want to be questioned on their build, on their gear, on how they play, on the rotations they use. They want people to just ignore whether or not they’re contributing, and be carried by everyone else that does care. These players don’t want a DPS meter because it exposes how bad they are.

Now this is a story at GW2 release when a Zerk Guardians, Warriors, and mesmers were the meta for every single dungeon speed clear. My initial class was an Engineer but I had to spend all my time farming Orr which was less efficient than doing dungeons because of a simple reason, I was not a meta class.

I was not lazy. I ran full Exotic Zerk and I have practiced and learned every single rotation to at least be comparable to a warrior’s DPS, nobody would take me in. Believe me or not, I was confident that my rotations were good enough especially because FT #2 (Flame Blast) was bugged at the moment wherein it hits your enemies 3x instead of 2 and I could stack might for all those warriors and stack vulnerability as well. But no, nobody wanted me because I wasn’t a meta class. I even experience getting kicked out of parties 12 consecutive times as soon as they saw that I wasn’t a warrior/guardian/mesmer multiple times.

Not everyone has time to get get all classes to lvl 80 and gear them up accordingly. Getting full ascended is even harder especially if they require you to do specific PVE content. You know a game is bad when it requires specific classes for specific contents.

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Posted by: Labjax.2465

Labjax.2465

Now am I? Please listen to my side of story.

I consider myself a casual gamer as I can only allot 1~2 hours at most every night because of work and other IRL stuff.

Let’s say the DPS meter was implemented and meta builds came out. Believe me, PEOPLE WILL WANT TO ONLY PLAY WITH META BUILD USERS UNLESS YOU ARE IN A GOOD GUILD. If for example a full Sinister/Viper set completely becomes the meta, this will require people to finish living stories and do achievements because you can’t just buy them from TP or from laurel vendor. While casuals are busy wasting their limited time doing living stories, they are getting left behind with raids.

How is this different from now though? I’ve already seen people asking for specific meta builds with ascended.

A meter could actually help in this regard if the game is balanced well; it could show that you don’t need the one type of theoretical build/class you think you need, but that you can manage fine with a few others as well.

Or words to that effect.

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

Anet is pushing GW2 to be a game where casual gamers won’t get left behind by the more active gamers in terms of item progression. Having a DPS meter contradicts their goal as it forces people to grind for Ascended items and play by the meta without exploring other possible builds.

I don’t support any kind of elitist. I don’t ever want to go back to when farming dungeons was all about stacking warriors and a guardian, requiring each and every party member to link their full Zerk gears or else you’ll get kicked.

You’ll be kicking out casual gamers in favor of hard core gamers by implementing this.

I won’t argue against the idea that ANet wants everyone to be one big, happy family… but adding raids is not going to promote that ideal.

Exclusion is going to happen in MMO’s. The only way to avoid such would be to have the content be so easy and the build options so the same that there is next-to-no difference between player skill and character builds. Raids are designed to be harder than any content seen in this game before. They also come with exclusive and desirable rewards. This virtually guarantees that large numbers of players will want to do the content. Some won’t have the skill. Others will want to play “their” build, not the best build. These players are going to be excluded from groups that care about such things.

Exclusion will get worse once players figure the bosses out and start farming the raid bosses for armor. Right now, some players are still feeling their way into this content. That will change as the content ages.

So, do meters cause this? No. Your mention of the exclusion around dungeons is all the proof you should need. No meters in use in GW2 dungeons. Players excluded based on gear pings, profession, and even AP.

Meters provide information. Well-designed meters provide information relevant to what is being measured. Discerning players will use the info to make decisions about what works. Will players use the info to exclude. Yep. However, if they don’t have accurate info, they’ll use something else. That’s human nature.

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Posted by: Fay.2357

Fay.2357

Discerning players will use the info to make decisions about what works. Will players use the info to exclude. Yep. However, if they don’t have accurate info, they’ll use something else. That’s human nature.

Exactly. The only thing that massive gripe proved is that exclusion happens regardless of meters. Meters happen to be a convenient thing for that type of player to point at, but it’s not like they’re going to stop doing what they do just because there’s no meter available.

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Posted by: Kyon.9735

Kyon.9735

Anet is pushing GW2 to be a game where casual gamers won’t get left behind by the more active gamers in terms of item progression. Having a DPS meter contradicts their goal as it forces people to grind for Ascended items and play by the meta without exploring other possible builds.

I don’t support any kind of elitist. I don’t ever want to go back to when farming dungeons was all about stacking warriors and a guardian, requiring each and every party member to link their full Zerk gears or else you’ll get kicked.

You’ll be kicking out casual gamers in favor of hard core gamers by implementing this.

I won’t argue against the idea that ANet wants everyone to be one big, happy family… but adding raids is not going to promote that ideal.

Exclusion is going to happen in MMO’s. The only way to avoid such would be to have the content be so easy and the build options so the same that there is next-to-no difference between player skill and character builds. Raids are designed to be harder than any content seen in this game before. They also come with exclusive and desirable rewards. This virtually guarantees that large numbers of players will want to do the content. Some won’t have the skill. Others will want to play “their” build, not the best build. These players are going to be excluded from groups that care about such things.

Exclusion will get worse once players figure the bosses out and start farming the raid bosses for armor. Right now, some players are still feeling their way into this content. That will change as the content ages.

So, do meters cause this? No. Your mention of the exclusion around dungeons is all the proof you should need. No meters in use in GW2 dungeons. Players excluded based on gear pings, profession, and even AP.

Meters provide information. Well-designed meters provide information relevant to what is being measured. Discerning players will use the info to make decisions about what works. Will players use the info to exclude. Yep. However, if they don’t have accurate info, they’ll use something else. That’s human nature.

Seems like you missed out my entire explanation for my reasoning on my next post on purpose. And yes, it already happens and DPS meters are bound to worsen it.

So, do meters cause this? No. Your mention of the exclusion around dungeons is all the proof you should need. No meters in use in GW2 dungeons. Players excluded based on gear pings, profession, and even AP.

No, meters didn’t cause it. Elitists did. And that DPS meter of yours promotes elitism for an online game that strives to balance the progression of casuals and hard core players.

It seems like we’ll never get into any kind of agreement as you are hell bent on the idea of implementing a Digital Pen!s Meter DPS meter but this will pretty much destroy the player base population.

Exactly. The only thing that massive gripe proved is that exclusion happens regardless of meters. Meters happen to be a convenient thing for that type of player to point at, but it’s not like they’re going to stop doing what they do just because there’s no meter available.

“Illegal loggers will always find a way so just let them do it”.
“Drug Pushers cannot be stopped so just let them do it”.
“Police shooting and violence cannot be stopped so just let them do it”.
Your logic is really flawed.

Have the last laugh, I’ve made my point and you guys understood it yet you still support toxic exclusion in the game. No more point in arguing.

(edited by Kyon.9735)

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Posted by: Land of Cheese.2584

Land of Cheese.2584

No, meters didn’t cause it. Elitists did. And that DPS meter of yours promotes elitism for an online game that strives to balance the progression of casuals and hard core players.

[ . . . snip . . . ]

Have the last laugh, I’ve made my point and you guys understood it yet you still support toxic exclusion in the game. No more point in arguing.

No, there’s no more point in arguing because you’re wrong. If you want to wear trash gear and have a trash build, you’re not excluded from playing with other bads. You’re free to put up an LFG with “Recommended level, PHIW, inexperienced ONLY”. Then you and your friends can have fun playing how you want. People who play in meta gear with meta builds are also playing how they want.

There is nothing in this game, nothing, that prevents you from forming parties with like minded people. Stop whining about “elitists,” you don’t like them, they don’t like you. Cope.

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Posted by: Fermi.2409

Fermi.2409

you still support toxic exclusion in the game. No more point in arguing.

I’d argue that forced inclusion is a great deal more toxic then allowing people to play with exactly who they want to play with, but that’s just me.

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Posted by: Xhyros.1340

Xhyros.1340

Yes yes yes yes yes, need a dps meter so bad. How the hell am I supposed to know if changing up my build up this way or that way is improving my overall performance? I want to know my numbers so I know whether what I’m doing is working or needs changing. There is no way in hell I am going to go through the combat log and add it all up myself.

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Posted by: ODB.6891

ODB.6891

you still support toxic exclusion in the game. No more point in arguing.

I’d argue that forced inclusion is a great deal more toxic then allowing people to play with exactly who they want to play with, but that’s just me.

This^

No one can be happy when you have others forced upon you that you don’t want to play with and who actively make your experience miserable. Players would be much more likely to have an enjoyable experience if they are allowed to accurately choose who they play with…like minded individuals.

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Posted by: Fay.2357

Fay.2357

“Illegal loggers will always find a way so just let them do it”.
“Drug Pushers cannot be stopped so just let them do it”.
“Police shooting and violence cannot be stopped so just let them do it”.
Your logic is really flawed.

There’s some very flawed logic, but it’s not mine. You’re just saying that we should ban DPS meters because some people will misuse them. You’re not in any way explaining how you plan to remove the current forms of griefing.

Honestly, you’re probably just sick of being booted for playing poorly, can’t blame you for being a little annoyed about it.

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Posted by: thrag.9740

thrag.9740

I don’t know. They are definitely useful tools in the right hands. Then again, people love to oversimplify so much. Trying to rank your teammates off a single number is clearly a fools errand.

I think we could have a middle ground. Instead of dps meters, what if at the end of the fight, everyone could see time graphs of other useful quantities. Graphs that don’t single out players quite like dps meters, but still provide useful feedback.

For example, a graph showing how many stacks of might on each player throughout the full 8 minute fight. And a binary graph for quickness/fury/alacrity/etc. And a graph of vulnerability stacks on the boss throughout the fight.

I feel like these would be much more useful quantities to look at, and would actually allow the team to pinpoint what needs to be worked on. The only question is, could anet actually collect that data in real time and give us those graphs?

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Posted by: Fay.2357

Fay.2357

I feel like these would be much more useful quantities to look at, and would actually allow the team to pinpoint what needs to be worked on. The only question is, could anet actually collect that data in real time and give us those graphs?

Could they? Yeah, definitely would be possible. It might require a lot of backend work though, so I don’t see that happening.

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Posted by: Ropechef.6192

Ropechef.6192

not 100 percent as if you are in "down time for more than about 3 to 5 sec it stalls.

Ele stronk

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

Seems like you missed out my entire explanation for my reasoning on my next post on purpose. And yes, it already happens and DPS meters are bound to worsen it.

Nope. Read the whole thing, I just don’t agree. All meters would provide is accurate information. If the group is not performing as desired, there will be kicks, meter or no.

No, meters didn’t cause it. Elitists did. And that DPS meter of yours promotes elitism for an online game that strives to balance the progression of casuals and hard core players.

Nope. Exclusion behavior does not need to be promoted. It’s rampant, or going to be, on its own. If Anet was concerned about balancing the progression of highly skilled and lesser-skilled players, they would not have put in hard content with exclusive rewards. And fyi it’ not “my” damage meter.

It seems like we’ll never get into any kind of agreement as you are hell bent on the idea of implementing a Digital Pen!s Meter DPS meter but this will pretty much destroy the player base population.

We’ve already established that a meter is just a tool and the real complaint is about exclusion. ANet had to know that putting Legendary Armor in hard raids was going to leave some players on the outside. They did it anyway. So, either they want to “destroy the player base population,” or they don’t believe you’re correct.

“Illegal loggers will always find a way so just let them do it”.
“Drug Pushers cannot be stopped so just let them do it”.
“Police shooting and violence cannot be stopped so just let them do it”.
Your logic is really flawed.

Have the last laugh, I’ve made my point and you guys understood it yet you still support toxic exclusion in the game. No more point in arguing.

You are, once again, incorrect. I support neither exclusion nor rudeness. I support players right to play with other like-minded players. I don’t support people being rude while kicking. Neither do I support the rudeness inherent in a player joining a group while lacking its requirements.

And it’s your logic which is flawed. Illicit logging, drugs and murder are illegal. Playing with the like-minded is not.

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Posted by: beefjus.9347

beefjus.9347

Having a “dps meter” in the form of a post-kill or post-wipe averaged summary would be okay. Since it’s averaged, no one gets singled out, and it allows people to see how the group performed as a metric for improvement. I’d personally like to see the following:

1. power damage done
2. condition damage done
3. boon and condition up time, split for each boon/condition.
4. boon and condition strips, split for each boon/condition.
5. healing done and taken.
6. bar breaks and bar damage.

Current Rig: http://pcpartpicker.com/user/Beefjus/saved/WBx323
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Posted by: Wahaha.7938

Wahaha.7938

I attempted Gorseval for maybe 7 hours with many different people aside from a core 4-5 group. We could not do enough damage to break 66% and we simply could not figure out what was the problem. Maybe some people knew what was the problem but stayed quiet.

Now I feel like a DPS meter would be extremely useful for determining the problem and showing us how to improve as a group. It would save so many hours.

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Posted by: Welfare.7084

Welfare.7084

dps meters are toxic.

Yes.

Looking at it holistically it’s very clear that overall such features do far more harm than any niche of good a small percentage of players tout they do. I understand their benefit and have used them in the past, but I’m not for a moment foolish enough to even try and convince anyone that they provide more positives than negatives to a game.

Additionally, personally I think it’s ridiculous to even suggest such a mechanic is now needed, and base such an argument solely around one tiny part of the game: Raids.

With raids being solely a dps check a screen that shows how much dps our dps’s are doing is almost required. We need to be able to see who is pulling their weight and who is not so we can adjust the party accordingly. Without such a feature a lot of time is wasted not knowing who is actually contributing to the party.

(edited by Welfare.7084)

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Posted by: Shados.1306

Shados.1306

Welp, that does it people. It was a good run. Still remember at Pax when they announced raids, right as they were explaining how GW2 had the friendliest community ever.

Thats gone now. We’ll all be yelling at each other while playing our spreadsheet clone. Fun stuff.

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

I personally think the game could use damage meters. Even if rendered down to the possibility of exclusion, I think excluding based on empirical evidence (someone not really doing much DPS) is light years “better” than excluding players because of the class they play, based on absolutely nothing in-game.

Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”

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Posted by: Walhalla.5473

Walhalla.5473

dps meters are toxic.

Yes.

Looking at it holistically it’s very clear that overall such features do far more harm than any niche of good a small percentage of players tout they do. I understand their benefit and have used them in the past, but I’m not for a moment foolish enough to even try and convince anyone that they provide more positives than negatives to a game.

Additionally, personally I think it’s ridiculous to even suggest such a mechanic is now needed, and base such an argument solely around one tiny part of the game: Raids.

With raids being solely a dps check

And I thought the Bosses have actual mechanics. Ok I’ll ignore everything else in the Encounters and just stand there and do Damage. :P

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Posted by: Dahkeus.8243

Dahkeus.8243

You need healing meters too…

I asked about it in the API section, but it was a “not on the table at this time” answer. Hopefully they get to work on releasing the stuff needed so players can make something official.

Well…until the raid needs more than 1 healer, I’m not sure that would really mean anything. =P

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Posted by: Post it.4560

Post it.4560

As i posted something similar on the FR forum, i totally agree with DPS meter. I would really like to see something like WarcraftLogs on GW2 to track for boons uptimes, rotations, to compare with historical logs etc…
I spent an enormous amount of time comparing logs during my WoW period and i improved both myself and my mates doing it.

It’s really a shame that you have to play GW2 without enjoying it with its best potential.

And it’s not even about allowing Addons like WoW, it’s just about logging combat data on a .txt

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Posted by: Bhima.9518

Bhima.9518

Raids have clearly increased the need for dps meters, since all these fights basically have enrage timers on them. We all know the problems with standard DPS meters, as they can be very exclusionary, and they don’t tell the whole picture in a fight. Yet clearly, we need SOMETHING so we can all have some data that tells how close we are/need to get to in terms of the right damage for a fight.

The answer to this that both allows players the ability to have a true dps benchmark WITHOUT the exclusionary effect of a public dps meter is to simply create personal DPS meters that are not seen by other players. That way, those that want to use it to find out where they stand, and give them a repeatable test to practice new builds until they reach their goal can do so while not being under the critical eye of public scrutiny.

Anet needs to make this or something like this happen, because of the nature of these new encounters and I personally think most people aren’t exactly sure if they are or are not contributing enough damage and they have no basis to confirm or deny that. Give us some way to personally confirm this Anet, and it will allow us to be better players.

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Posted by: Cogbyrn.7283

Cogbyrn.7283

To be fair, personal damage meters would still end up with people asking others what their DPS was, whether it is the raid leader to get a sense of how everyone performed, or a snotty group member who wants to compare. If you don’t provide, they’ll probably still be exclusionary. Also, the ability to analyze someone else of the same class to see the distribution of damage across their skills, crit rates, etc., you can really help yourself improve with tips gleaned from the data alone.

However, if that’s the start we get, I’d be more than happy with it.

Alduin Nightsong, 80 Human Necro
“He’s like a man with a fork in a world of soup.”

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Posted by: Elomite.2396

Elomite.2396

not 100 percent as if you are in "down time for more than about 3 to 5 sec it stalls.

Ele stronk

Ele is amazing on large hitboxes but in that video you managed to down in like the first 10 seconds and it maxed at like 20k, never really seemed to drop even when you were on lava font and autos, it’s clearly inaccurate. Like it’s trying to catch up with your last meteor shower’s dps and forget everything inbetween.

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Posted by: SansSariph.9548

SansSariph.9548

I’m pretty sure the solution to this is opt-in parse-able live combat log files.

You avoid live in-game meters which can be used to crucify people in PUGs, and organized groups can still use a tool to parse their logs for post hoc raid fight analysis.

Rich combat logs are much more useful than straight DPS meters, too – you can get reports on healing, buff uptime, what boss mechanics are killing people the most, etc.

DPS is also a misleading number on multi-target fights, as folks can pad their numbers without contributing as much as they could. Log parses can show who is focusing the right targets.

(edited by SansSariph.9548)