Guild Wars 2

Gigantic post. Thank you and good luck to all who read it. My results and conclusions are in the next post.

One of the things I’ve noticed when pugging dungeons is that level 80s like to form groups with other level 80s. The thought process behind this is a flawed, yet understandable one: level 80 characters generally have better gear and are more experienced. But what if you’re rolling an alt and you want to complete dungeons with this character rather than your other one? It’s a good idea to do dungeon runs from the time you can get in them so you can get an exotic set of armor shortly after you become 80. It’s also good experience and it’s fun. You get to level 30, clear Ascalon Catacombs story mode, get to level 35, and decide to do an explorable mode. You’re confident that you know what you’re doing. You display your need for a group in map chat. No one answers. You try to whisper to a group looking for members, but they say they’re looking for other level 80s with full exotic armor. Perfect. In order to do a level 35 dungeon, you need to be level 80. That’s not what the developers intended. You should be able to complete a dungeon at the level it caps at. I went full nerd mode and did a test with a guild mate which reveals that a level 80’s base stats are lower than a level 35’s base stats in a level 35 instance.

I set up the test by purchasing two sets of identical level 30 armor and retraining our current traits to 0. In this case it was a full set of strong student gear that gives only power and precision. I gave all 6 of the pieces to my friend. He came in full level 80 rare armor. It’s not the best example; I would have preferred exotics, but at the time it’s what he had and this test was about stat scaling. When we first entered the dungeon, we stripped down naked (kinky). Both of our stats, when we had no armor, were capped at 256. This includes all stats; everything was the same. His default stats before down scaling at level 80 were 916 while mine were 266. Tried the same thing with the cheap armor I bought for both of us and they matched. “Well, that doesn’t prove anything,” some naysayers may retort. “So what if both stats are the same? Level 80s have more trait points than a level 35.” This is where the down scaling system shows how clever and brutal it can be to level 80s.

When researching down scaling, I ran into this post on reddit:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/y2ggw/complaint_dynamic_level_scaling_allows_stats_to/
It seems that when compared to a natural level 35 character (or whatever the cap may be), a level 80 will have less stats when both characters are naked. When we both put points into our trait lines (he did 20/30/0/20/0 and I did 10/10/0/5/0), I discovered that it’s a 10-40 negative point difference for the level 80 character when compared to the level 35 character. His stats were 312, 340, 256, and 312 while my stats were 352, 352, 256, and 304. The game assumes you will have higher stats from your armor, so it doesn’t give you the full point per trait. The game artificially creates a gap because it expects you to fill it with your superior armor. This is possibly the most important part of the down scaling system that people are completely unaware of.

When both characters donned their armor, their stats balanced out. This happened in both the cases regarding trait points on and off. Naturally, with rarer, higher level armor, the level 80 has a stat advantage. Since most armor at that level have 3 stats compared to 2 on level 35 armor, it was easier to fill the gaps that the trait points created. However, the difference is not significant. It was only a 10-30 point gain for each stat. The armor stats scale down, too. This is because it’s just being added to the main stat number and that number is being adjusted. My friend had 312 points in power after traiting. His armor boosted this stat to only 367. His armor would have given him an extra 197 power at level 80, but only gave him an extra 55. Put into terms anyone can understand, this is like giving a level 35 character 100-300 extra hit points if they have vitality gear. The only significant difference between level 35s and 80s is that traits themselves are not scaled down. At level 35, you have a total of 5 traits. At level 80, you can have 9 more traits than a level 35. This adds flexibility or mastery of a certain aspect of battle that a level 80 can have, but a level 35 cannot.

Results of the test:
In a level 35 instance, your base stats (no armor) when your character is above level 35 are 256 points.
You get less stat points per trait point as a level 80 than a level 35. The game assumes you have high level gear and penalizes you for it.
High level armor will always outclass a level 35’s armor, but not by much. Level 80 armor has more stats to offer, but it has greater gaps to fill.
The amount of traits a character can have equipped plays a significant role in dungeon running. It gives a level 80 character more flexibility and utility than a player at the level cap.

Conclusions:
You might be wasting your time waiting for a full level 80 group in lower level dungeons. Your gear does not make your character. Your ability to play does.
Give people a chance. Ask them in a polite way how they are geared and traited. If they sound like they know what they’re talking about, give them the benefit of the doubt. This game is forgiving. It seems like the players aren’t.
Give new players advice and they may follow it.
If you are standing around in front of a dungeon saying, “Guardian LFG AC EM,” you are doing it wrong. Give details about your build/armor. Instead, try saying, “40 Guardian LFG AC EM. Support build with toughness.” I guarantee that will draw someone’s attention rather than being the fourth person to say LFG.
To the level 35s who never ran a dungeon in explorable mode: it is not a cakewalk. I hate to be that guy, but you have to consider that your level 28 magic find armor with magic find runes might not cut it. Spend some extra time purchasing or crafting better armor and weapons. They make a world of difference.

Good luck with your pugging efforts, everyone. I apologize for this lengthy post. I hope I answered some questions in regards to the down scaling system, and made finding a group more efficient.

Thanks for doing all the testing. I’ve always wondered how much is the gap between a lowbie and a downleveled 80.

I’ve never had any issues with AC/CM/TA/SE getting groups. Been leveling off dungeons since I hit 45 on thief(ran though them all on my ele). People just want to know you know the instance. As long as you can prove you’ve done them or are at least competent they don’t care. I’m 72 now on my thief.
Although knowing how the stats break down is extremely helpful.

Actually, I posted this on reddit and someone informed me that penalty from scaling down to lower levels is extremely harsh. Link to post:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/113xm9/downscaling_in_dungeons/c6j3pre
Basically, you need top tier gear if you’re a level 80 because your stats will be brought down severely by the down scaling system. The same doesn’t apply for people around that level.

Good job doing some actual testing on it. This all mirrors my personal experience, having seen what happened to my stats while playing dungeons from level 30 to 80 on my main character, and again now that I have an alt high enough to do dungeons.

I haven’t actually seen people in-game being exceptionally picky about player level when doing dungeons, but I have seen a lot of people in forums who seemed to believe that a downscaled level 80 player would have huge statistical advantages over a ‘natural’ character at the level of a dungeon, or people who seemed to think that since level 70 equipment was higher than the dungeon, it should be fine on their level 80 character. Hopefully this can gain enough traction to clear up some of those misconceptions.