Guild Wars 2

Thief IMO is a really good raid class but I wanna be able to do more than dps or tank. If they decide on a new raid, make a wing where Theives are great and absolutely needed.

For example, having a boss where the mechanic is to steal a boon from the boss and give it to your team. Which class would be great for that? You guessed it, thief with bountiful theft. The mechanic could be that the boss hits really hard, close to 1 shot if not a 1 shot, and a boon must be stolen from the boss to reduce the damage you take from the boss. The stolen boon can stack, thus bringing 4 thieves would be ideal.

Another idea is a boss where stealth is crucial to the fight. For example, the boss has an attack that will do heavy damage to visible players and the only way to not get hit is to get into stealth. The attack will last 7s or so, thus you need be in stealth for a long duration. Which class is the master of stealth? Thief. This would be another encounter where bringing 4 Theives would be ideal.

Making stealth part of the boss fight mechanics may end up being clunky. Stealth is already a poor defense against targeted attacks, so I don’t see this happening, unless they modified how this works (and keep it split from PvP).

Adding unique behaviour to stolen skills though, this would probably be the easiest way to do it. A temporary bonus effect from a stolen skill, for instance. Each boss could have something unique in that regard.

I don’t think it’s necessary to have mechanics that makes a Thief mandatory, as you’re suggesting. Stacking Thieves wouldn’t be the ideal option, as it’s no different from the current practice of stacking Tempests.

Mesmer with boon strip trait can do the thingy you mentioned far better.

As for the stealth part I could argue that other classes can do it too, with stacking and such, but lets not go there yet.

This whole post almost makes it sound like you want to have a thief an absolute requirement for a specific encounter. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I can’t recall a single encounter in the current wings where a class is a must have.

Doing the whole “This class is mandatory for this encounter or it’s a raid wipe” would be the stupidest thing ever.

I’ve seen thieves in w1, even two of them on Sabetha, a few times in w2 as well. But I do understand that they are not in the current meta for raid. And I’m totally fine with that, it’s a selfish class and other classes fill the slot far better in my opinion.

In my raid group we have one thief he brings good dps and cc , and we have been running with him for months now.

Just wait for the next patch , maybe they will split skills in PvE-PvP and some proffessions will become better on PvE wihout beeing broken on PvP.

Urosh Uchiha.9732:

Mesmer with boon strip trait can do the thingy you mentioned far better.

As for the stealth part I could argue that other classes can do it too, with stacking and such, but lets not go there yet.

This whole post almost makes it sound like you want to have a thief an absolute requirement for a specific encounter. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I can’t recall a single encounter in the current wings where a class is a must have.

Doing the whole “This class is mandatory for this encounter or it’s a raid wipe” would be the stupidest thing ever.

I’ve seen thieves in w1, even two of them on Sabetha, a few times in w2 as well. But I do understand that they are not in the current meta for raid. And I’m totally fine with that, it’s a selfish class and other classes fill the slot far better in my opinion.

I’m gonna assume you hardly ever raid and if you do, you only have maybe a kill or 2. First of all Theives are the only class that can steal boons AND give those stolen boons to their team. So no, Mesmer would do a bad job at this. Second, why on earth would you bring any other stealth class (engi and Mesmer I think you’re assuming and that’s not even considering that you’re stacking them as well…yuck) that’s not a thief? Thieves have better dps and better on demand stealth. Third, again you are incorrect here. Heck the 1st bosses makes it so that you NEED boon strip, something only 2 classes can do. 2nd boss you practically NEED an ele to clear the orbs. Hell am Ele is even needed for Xera to clear fragments otherwise GG. Sloth and Matt, you NEED reflects. Etc, etc, etc. Fourth, uhhh VG boon strip or else GG. Lastly, thief is in the Meta, in fact all classes can be considered meta, it’s just the ignorance of ppl that hold many of the classes back.

Nozome.7853:

In my raid group we have one thief he brings good dps and cc , and we have been running with him for months now.

Just wait for the next patch , maybe they will split skills in PvE-PvP and some proffessions will become better on PvE wihout beeing broken on PvP.

I’d be surprised if you didn’t have a thief lol. Thief is a great class, it can dps and tank with the best of them. I just wanna do more than just those two roles tho

Your assumption is wrong. I do raids weekly and I’ve finished all raid achievements from all 3 wings. I missed the part about giving those boons to your allies, I thought it’s just to strip it from the boss before he one shots you.

Yes, you NEED certain things in some encounters, but multiple classes can do it. Boon strip and reflect for example. Clearing orbs and bloodstone shards is something an ele does best, that’s true. I’m sure some other class can do it too but Ele works best so why bother.

Personally I’d rather have a mechanic where you need to run to a certain spot to get that stealth to survive the raid wipe ability.

Shovel Face.4512:

Urosh Uchiha.9732:

Mesmer with boon strip trait can do the thingy you mentioned far better.

As for the stealth part I could argue that other classes can do it too, with stacking and such, but lets not go there yet.

This whole post almost makes it sound like you want to have a thief an absolute requirement for a specific encounter. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I can’t recall a single encounter in the current wings where a class is a must have.

Doing the whole “This class is mandatory for this encounter or it’s a raid wipe” would be the stupidest thing ever.

I’ve seen thieves in w1, even two of them on Sabetha, a few times in w2 as well. But I do understand that they are not in the current meta for raid. And I’m totally fine with that, it’s a selfish class and other classes fill the slot far better in my opinion.

I’m gonna assume you hardly ever raid and if you do, you only have maybe a kill or 2. First of all Theives are the only class that can steal boons AND give those stolen boons to their team. So no, Mesmer would do a bad job at this. Second, why on earth would you bring any other stealth class (engi and Mesmer I think you’re assuming and that’s not even considering that you’re stacking them as well…yuck) that’s not a thief? Thieves have better dps and better on demand stealth. Third, again you are incorrect here. Heck the 1st bosses makes it so that you NEED boon strip, something only 2 classes can do. 2nd boss you practically NEED an ele to clear the orbs. Hell am Ele is even needed for Xera to clear fragments otherwise GG. Sloth and Matt, you NEED reflects. Etc, etc, etc. Fourth, uhhh VG boon strip or else GG. Lastly, thief is in the Meta, in fact all classes can be considered meta, it’s just the ignorance of ppl that hold many of the classes back.

As much as I support doing something for thief viability, most of what you said is wrong.
1. Mesmers can steal boons AND give them to the group (Arcane Thievery + SoI).
2. There are many ways to group stealth, Thief is the easiest one but I doubt it would be mandatory (for example, I could easily stealth a group for 7 seconds with my druid).
3. There are at least 4 classes (that I know of) that can boon-strip.
4. You don’t NEED ele to clear orbs, they just do it a bit better than other classes, it can be done without eles.
5. You NEED reflects (or deflects etc..), which is a think that ALL classes can provide, just choose.

Shovel Face.4512:

Nozome.7853:

In my raid group we have one thief he brings good dps and cc , and we have been running with him for months now.

Just wait for the next patch , maybe they will split skills in PvE-PvP and some proffessions will become better on PvE wihout beeing broken on PvP.

I’d be surprised if you didn’t have a thief lol. Thief is a great class, it can dps and tank with the best of them. I just wanna do more than just those two roles tho

My team almost never uses a thief and we clear all 3 wings each week usually all bosses first try.

What other roles would you like to do as a thief besides dps and tanking I wonder? Should someone open a thread now for a mesmer saying how they want more roles other than being quickness/alacrity bots?

This still feels like one of those “I can only play one class and I want it to be super viable in raids” type of things. If you are a dedicated raider you are pretty much forced to have other classes geared up as well. I want my main to be used for other things in raids as well but that will probably never happen, and I’m fine with it, I’ll just roll something else.

Pls, thieves got it good. Try being a guard main in an experienced group that rly doesn’t need protection. xD

just wait for the next balance patch the ability to split skills more easily between gamemodes might end up getting thief buffed to a point where it is better single target dps than ele. Or well just nerf ele :^)

I wouldn’t mind a boss that had stealth as a mechanic. That would increase the desirability of engies and thieves.

Why thieves? Why is your class so special that we should get an entire raid wing centered around it and requiring it?

It doesn’t need to be a situation where the raid requires a thief, but thieves should be hands down the easiest class to integrate in to raid parties in a balanced fashion specifically because of the steal mechanic.

That extra button they added for using extra raid abilities? That is the thief’s built in kit

If there’s not a compelling reason to bring a thief to a given encounter, all they really need to do is design an encounter-specific stolen ability that makes them valuable as an alternative to the more mainstream picks.

No encounter should require a specific class, but every class should have at least two valuable roles in any given encounter. Thief tends to suffer in this situation because of their lack of group utility, and it would be simply to fix that problem by giving the bosses custom stolen skills. Since those skills are only stolen during the boss encounters, they don’t at all impact the balance of the thief profession anywhere else in the game, and play up what makes the thief unique in comparison to other classes.

For instance, what if the thief could steal a skill from VG that aoe dispersed red orbs? bam, instant utility. Is it required to beat the encounter? No. You can still use the standard method. However it allows the thief to use his unique mechanics in a way that can group utility, and makes him as valuable as other party options.

The end result is that the same thief build may have a wholly different job in different boss encounters, and be able to interact with those encounters in ways that other classes can’t, but doesn’t necessarily replace or make him superior to other options, just equal. That reactionary, on-the-fly design is right up the thief’s alley and is core to the design of the class.

The issue isn’t so much that there isn’t a raid fight where thieves are crucial, it’s that the class itself doesn’t have mechanics that are useful for raids. I mean sure you could make a fight where you need a bunch of smoke fields, or where boon thieves is stupid good, or some really specific thing like that. That will get thief taken for sure. But thief will still be garbage in all the other fights because they have no value besides dealing damage, and they aren’t even the best at that most of the time.

A large part of the no-thieves thing is that elementalist is ridiculous in raids. But even if there are ele raid nerfs, if thief isn’t changed as well it’s going to be nothing but 2x signets autoing the boss for 8 minutes, which doesn’t really seem much better.

It isn’t a raid design issue, it’s a thief design issue.

No no no! Making one class essential for a raid wing would cause all kinds of kitten. Anyways, thieves have their uses in the first boss of wing 3, where some use them to stealth through the cave. But this isn’t essential. Can you imagine the lfg – need theif and waiting for ages to get one? Would be like the bad old days of need monk in gw1.

No thanks!

Which class is the master of stealth? Thief. This would be another encounter where bringing 4 Theives would be ideal.

I think you misspelled “Engineer.”

To the greater issue though, I do think that they should work harder to make sure Thieves can provide something useful to more raid fights, but I don’t think that any one class should be specifically necessary to a boss fight, even the ones that currently seem to be. There should always be alternatives when putting the squad together.

Ohoni.6057:

Which class is the master of stealth? Thief. This would be another encounter where bringing 4 Theives would be ideal.

I think you misspelled “Engineer.”

To the greater issue though, I do think that they should work harder to make sure Thieves can provide something useful to more raid fights, but I don’t think that any one class should be specifically necessary to a boss fight, even the ones that currently seem to be. There should always be alternatives when putting the squad together.

Engineer? What?! Lol.

On a serious note, I feel bad for engis. Apart from VG, I never, ever see this class. It was good in Gors but since slick shoes was nerfed, it’s no longer as valued.

Shovel Face.4512:

Ohoni.6057:

Which class is the master of stealth? Thief. This would be another encounter where bringing 4 Theives would be ideal.

I think you misspelled “Engineer.”

To the greater issue though, I do think that they should work harder to make sure Thieves can provide something useful to more raid fights, but I don’t think that any one class should be specifically necessary to a boss fight, even the ones that currently seem to be. There should always be alternatives when putting the squad together.

Engineer? What?! Lol.

On a serious note, I feel bad for engis. Apart from VG, I never, ever see this class. It was good in Gors but since slick shoes was nerfed, it’s no longer as valued.

It’s just a matter of optimal versus viable rearing its head for engineer. Being the jack of all trades master of none really brings it down a peg relative to other classes. The defining reason people brought it for gors should be its “sticking” point imo. The CC’s engie has is abundant, but its overall weaker to compensate for the sheer amount it has. I’d love for Anet to fix that somehow.

On a serious note, I feel bad for engis. Apart from VG, I never, ever see this class. It was good in Gors but since slick shoes was nerfed, it’s no longer as valued.

They should add something where you need to stealth the whole party then, that would guarantee 2-3 Engis per fight.

It’s just a matter of optimal versus viable rearing its head for engineer. Being the jack of all trades master of none really brings it down a peg relative to other classes.

But the real issue is that when the difference between “optimal” and “viable” can mean the difference between “success” and “failure” for a less than perfectly skilled party, “optimal” and “viable” essentially become the same thing. If they want more diversity, they need to lower the bar for success, so that unless you’re doing a speed run, it really doesn’t matter if half the team is “sub-optimal” at their roles, it’ll only amount to an extra minute or two of fighting. Until they do lower the bar though, there will only be right and wrong choices of class and build, and certain classes will only be viable in specific scenarios.

Ohoni.6057:

On a serious note, I feel bad for engis. Apart from VG, I never, ever see this class. It was good in Gors but since slick shoes was nerfed, it’s no longer as valued.

They should add something where you need to stealth the whole party then, that would guarantee 2-3 Engis per fight.

It’s just a matter of optimal versus viable rearing its head for engineer. Being the jack of all trades master of none really brings it down a peg relative to other classes.

But the real issue is that when the difference between “optimal” and “viable” can mean the difference between “success” and “failure” for a less than perfectly skilled party, “optimal” and “viable” essentially become the same thing. If they want more diversity, they need to lower the bar for success, so that unless you’re doing a speed run, it really doesn’t matter if half the team is “sub-optimal” at their roles, it’ll only amount to an extra minute or two of fighting. Until they do lower the bar though, there will only be right and wrong choices of class and build, and certain classes will only be viable in specific scenarios.

No they really don’t need to lower the bar. I’m perfectly content with each profession having it’s own niche and selling point the only problem engineer has is that while it has condition damage on par with that of necro’s the input required is several times more. It has some of the best CC in the game, however the trade of is to get there you almost entirely gut your personal DPS. No other class off the top of my head has such a stark trade off when comes to bringing both utility and DPS. The simple way to fix this is not lowering the bar but buffing what makes engineer unique.

Ohoni.6057:

On a serious note, I feel bad for engis. Apart from VG, I never, ever see this class. It was good in Gors but since slick shoes was nerfed, it’s no longer as valued.

They should add something where you need to stealth the whole party then, that would guarantee 2-3 Engis per fight.

It’s just a matter of optimal versus viable rearing its head for engineer. Being the jack of all trades master of none really brings it down a peg relative to other classes.

But the real issue is that when the difference between “optimal” and “viable” can mean the difference between “success” and “failure” for a less than perfectly skilled party, “optimal” and “viable” essentially become the same thing. If they want more diversity, they need to lower the bar for success, so that unless you’re doing a speed run, it really doesn’t matter if half the team is “sub-optimal” at their roles, it’ll only amount to an extra minute or two of fighting. Until they do lower the bar though, there will only be right and wrong choices of class and build, and certain classes will only be viable in specific scenarios.

A party of 10 necros can clear most of the raid bosses, and you’re seriously kittening about lowering the bar and certain classes and builds being right and wrong? REALLY?

A party of 10 necros can clear most of the raid bosses, and you’re seriously kittening about lowering the bar and certain classes and builds being right and wrong? REALLY?

Yes.

TexZero.7910:

Ohoni.6057:

On a serious note, I feel bad for engis. Apart from VG, I never, ever see this class. It was good in Gors but since slick shoes was nerfed, it’s no longer as valued.

They should add something where you need to stealth the whole party then, that would guarantee 2-3 Engis per fight.

It’s just a matter of optimal versus viable rearing its head for engineer. Being the jack of all trades master of none really brings it down a peg relative to other classes.

But the real issue is that when the difference between “optimal” and “viable” can mean the difference between “success” and “failure” for a less than perfectly skilled party, “optimal” and “viable” essentially become the same thing. If they want more diversity, they need to lower the bar for success, so that unless you’re doing a speed run, it really doesn’t matter if half the team is “sub-optimal” at their roles, it’ll only amount to an extra minute or two of fighting. Until they do lower the bar though, there will only be right and wrong choices of class and build, and certain classes will only be viable in specific scenarios.

No they really don’t need to lower the bar. I’m perfectly content with each profession having it’s own niche and selling point the only problem engineer has is that while it has condition damage on par with that of necro’s the input required is several times more. It has some of the best CC in the game, however the trade of is to get there you almost entirely gut your personal DPS. No other class off the top of my head has such a stark trade off when comes to bringing both utility and DPS. The simple way to fix this is not lowering the bar but buffing what makes engineer unique.

If it weren’t for epidemic necromancer would be in a worse position than engineer. The only fight where necro is any good without it is matthias. So yeah necros are amazing in a bunch of fights but it’s almost entirely on the back of a single skill, which is a pretty questionable position for a class to be in, especially considering how unhealthy epidemic is for raids as a whole. You say you’re happy with classes having their own niche, but the niches for some classes can fill are really small compared to others.

As I said before, the relative usefulness of classes in raids is more a result of the class design than the raid design. I actually don’t think engineer needs to be buffed at all; rather some other classes (or skills) should be made weaker so that you can’t rely on the same one or two strategies for every single fight.

Hopefully whatever is happening with skills being split up more in the future helps with that issue.

Dinosaurs.8674:

TexZero.7910:

Ohoni.6057:

On a serious note, I feel bad for engis. Apart from VG, I never, ever see this class. It was good in Gors but since slick shoes was nerfed, it’s no longer as valued.

They should add something where you need to stealth the whole party then, that would guarantee 2-3 Engis per fight.

It’s just a matter of optimal versus viable rearing its head for engineer. Being the jack of all trades master of none really brings it down a peg relative to other classes.

But the real issue is that when the difference between “optimal” and “viable” can mean the difference between “success” and “failure” for a less than perfectly skilled party, “optimal” and “viable” essentially become the same thing. If they want more diversity, they need to lower the bar for success, so that unless you’re doing a speed run, it really doesn’t matter if half the team is “sub-optimal” at their roles, it’ll only amount to an extra minute or two of fighting. Until they do lower the bar though, there will only be right and wrong choices of class and build, and certain classes will only be viable in specific scenarios.

No they really don’t need to lower the bar. I’m perfectly content with each profession having it’s own niche and selling point the only problem engineer has is that while it has condition damage on par with that of necro’s the input required is several times more. It has some of the best CC in the game, however the trade of is to get there you almost entirely gut your personal DPS. No other class off the top of my head has such a stark trade off when comes to bringing both utility and DPS. The simple way to fix this is not lowering the bar but buffing what makes engineer unique.

If it weren’t for epidemic necromancer would be in a worse position than engineer. The only fight where necro is any good without it is matthias. So yeah necros are amazing in a bunch of fights but it’s almost entirely on the back of a single skill, which is a pretty questionable position for a class to be in, especially considering how unhealthy epidemic is for raids as a whole. You say you’re happy with classes having their own niche, but the niches for some classes can fill are really small compared to others.

As I said before, the relative usefulness of classes in raids is more a result of the class design than the raid design. I actually don’t think engineer needs to be buffed at all; rather some other classes (or skills) should be made weaker so that you can’t rely on the same one or two strategies for every single fight.

Hopefully whatever is happening with skills being split up more in the future helps with that issue.

Agree to disagree about epidemic being the sole thing pushing necro’s outta whack. I think part of it also heavily comes down to minion up-time with the changes to them having 90% damage reduction from indirect sources.

But yes more splits with balance updates can definitely solve some of the issues, as would differently designed raid encounters.

Ohoni.6057:

On a serious note, I feel bad for engis. Apart from VG, I never, ever see this class. It was good in Gors but since slick shoes was nerfed, it’s no longer as valued.

They should add something where you need to stealth the whole party then, that would guarantee 2-3 Engis per fight.

It’s just a matter of optimal versus viable rearing its head for engineer. Being the jack of all trades master of none really brings it down a peg relative to other classes.

But the real issue is that when the difference between “optimal” and “viable” can mean the difference between “success” and “failure” for a less than perfectly skilled party, “optimal” and “viable” essentially become the same thing. If they want more diversity, they need to lower the bar for success, so that unless you’re doing a speed run, it really doesn’t matter if half the team is “sub-optimal” at their roles, it’ll only amount to an extra minute or two of fighting. Until they do lower the bar though, there will only be right and wrong choices of class and build, and certain classes will only be viable in specific scenarios.

lol why do you keep bring up engis kid.

Let me fix it for ya buddy,
*2-4 Theives. Not only does Thief have better dps and better stealth, the gyro that gives stealth would be destroyed from the boss’ attack. So no, engis WOULD NOT be the most optimal for this fight.

Hello Shovel Face.

Yes thieves are fun. But you can’t be serious about this though.
Imagine anet would follow up your idea. Then in those raids, where 2 or 4 thieves are needed in a Squad of 10 with 9 professions to choose from, you’re just pulling ahead 1 profession, thief in this case. By a lot. Other professions will feel left behind, by a lot, which would be totally legit.

It’s not like thieves don’t have a role in raids now. There are other professions in a worse position than thieves.

It’s all ok you’re a thief-fan but making raids dependant of multiple spots of 1 profession really isn’t a good idea at all, sorry.

1. I love engi and I don’t appreciate you dizzing them, it’s like if I dizz on thieves.

2. You pretty much acting condescending to others is precisely what I feared raids would cause, jerks

3. If anet follows your idea then raids will be dead, there shouldn’t and won’t be a specific class needed to complete a raid.

Requiring specific classes is bullkitten
Instead of making thief more desirable by forcing it into raid encounters, they should make taking thieves more desirable by changing them in a way that makes them more useful in raids in general.

lol why do you keep bring up engis kid.

Let me fix it for ya buddy,
*2-4 Theives. Not only does Thief have better dps and better stealth, the gyro that gives stealth would be destroyed from the boss’ attack. So no, engis WOULD NOT be the most optimal for this fight.

I do main a Thief, and also play an Engi sometimes, I know what they’re capable of. A Thief can stealth the team with Refuge, but it’s not mobile so placement would be key. An Engi can stealth the team with Stealthbot, and it’s mobile and lasts longer, although longer CD. Yeah, the boss could destroy the stealthbot, but only if it was attacking during the “hey, Stealth” phase, and if so, it would probably be damaging the stealthed players too. Also, making the boss re4quire stealth but specifically undermine the other classes that could provide it is a bit too much of a “mono-class” mechanic.

In the meantime though, the Engi is an Engi and the Thief is a Thief, and the Engi can typically do a lot more things in a raid than a Thief.

I think the only content that could actually demand a Thief would not be based on stealth, it would be based on Shortbow 5. Have a thing where you have to climb a zig-zagging ramp-like structure in a limited amount of time, something that would take even the speediest classes far too long, but which could be scaled very quickly using 3-4 shadowsteps in a row, something no other class can manage.

The other method would be something that doesn’t require team stealth, but just requires one member who can reasonably pass in and out of stealth several times in a row, which would be tough or impossible for other classes to manage. But again, we’re getting into mono-class territory, and I’m not a fan of that.

Mandatory stealth for an encounter is a bad idea

Another way to easily make thief the top dps class for boss is to make the boss fairly mobile, and have frequent dodge or die type attacks, and have secondary mechanics where high mobility benefits. Mathias is a good example of this type of boss.

He moves around a lot making staff ele damage pretty poor from not staying in lava fonts. Additionally the hadoukens will one shot an ele if they don’t dodge which means they can’t reliably finish channeling air overload which is a huge dps loss when canceled.

On the other hand thief basically loses no damage from having to dodge, loses no damage against a moving target, and even has superior mobility to drop off poison and corruption quickly to get back into the fight. The only way ele can compete dps wise in this fight is that staff has range to work around bombs, tornados, and spirits which aren’t that hard to avoid as a thief in melee range.

eduardo.1436:

1. I love engi and I don’t appreciate you dizzing them, it’s like if I dizz on thieves.

2. You pretty much acting condescending to others is precisely what I feared raids would cause, jerks

3. If anet follows your idea then raids will be dead, there shouldn’t and won’t be a specific class needed to complete a raid.

1. I love engis as much as the next guy. I play thief, DH, necro, warr and engi.

2. You’re on the Internet…

3. Raids are already dead. I pug with the same 20-30 ppl from Sab to Xera. I post my lfm or join a group and what do ya know, it’s the same ppl I’ve already played with.

Thief and engineers are fine. Ele is just OP.

Ele is the only class with a meta weapon that also happens to be ranged and is capable of the strongest aoe in the game from range.

I mean, what other class are you going to be dedicating to the balls in Gorseval? Who can still DPS boss while waiting to jump to cannons in Sabetha?

Other classes are fine, it’s just ele that’s too strong.

If you really need a quick stealth skip for something, you could just have your mesmer respec for PU and mass invis. That’s a real quick 15 seconds stealth with a 10 target limit. Easy peasy.

Ohoni.6057:

lol why do you keep bring up engis kid.

Let me fix it for ya buddy,
*2-4 Theives. Not only does Thief have better dps and better stealth, the gyro that gives stealth would be destroyed from the boss’ attack. So no, engis WOULD NOT be the most optimal for this fight.

I do main a Thief, and also play an Engi sometimes, I know what they’re capable of. A Thief can stealth the team with Refuge, but it’s not mobile so placement would be key. An Engi can stealth the team with Stealthbot, and it’s mobile and lasts longer, although longer CD. Yeah, the boss could destroy the stealthbot, but only if it was attacking during the “hey, Stealth” phase, and if so, it would probably be damaging the stealthed players too. Also, making the boss re4quire stealth but specifically undermine the other classes that could provide it is a bit too much of a “mono-class” mechanic.

In the meantime though, the Engi is an Engi and the Thief is a Thief, and the Engi can typically do a lot more things in a raid than a Thief.

I think the only content that could actually demand a Thief would not be based on stealth, it would be based on Shortbow 5. Have a thing where you have to climb a zig-zagging ramp-like structure in a limited amount of time, something that would take even the speediest classes far too long, but which could be scaled very quickly using 3-4 shadowsteps in a row, something no other class can manage.

The other method would be something that doesn’t require team stealth, but just requires one member who can reasonably pass in and out of stealth several times in a row, which would be tough or impossible for other classes to manage. But again, we’re getting into mono-class territory, and I’m not a fan of that.

Engi brings nothing. Other classes bring more and then some. Engi stealth, again, wouldn’t work cuz in this make believe boss I’ve created, the gyro will instant destroyed. Also, Thief dps > Engi by a lot.

And also, the real reason for this post was to show how they should make raids where bringing a specific class or 2 is needed. Otherwise we get the same old chrono, rev, ps, Druid and Eles. Not saying it’s not fun, definitely love the 4-4-2 where I can bring my Warrior but sometime I wanna whip out my DD since that’s my main. Basically, have some diversity in raids, it’s good for the soul.

Some other ideas:
Boss that uses ur boons to 1 shot or do heavy damage depending on amount of boons. This would make revs, warr and Eles useless this we can add some diversity. Idk man it’s something different then the raids we’ve been getting, but ppl tend to hate different things, they tend to stick to the status quo.

Shovel Face.4512:

eduardo.1436:

1. I love engi and I don’t appreciate you dizzing them, it’s like if I dizz on thieves.

2. You pretty much acting condescending to others is precisely what I feared raids would cause, jerks

3. If anet follows your idea then raids will be dead, there shouldn’t and won’t be a specific class needed to complete a raid.

1. I love engis as much as the next guy. I play thief, DH, necro, warr and engi.

2. You’re on the Internet…

3. Raids are already dead. I pug with the same 20-30 ppl from Sab to Xera. I post my lfm or join a group and what do ya know, it’s the same ppl I’ve already played with.

1. if you play all those classes then why the heck do you want thieves to be crucial for a raid’s success?
2. fair point was to be expected
3. I wouldn’t say that raids are dead, only 10% of the playerbase manages to be successful at them

I just had to come back to this thread and laugh at the “raids are already dead”.

Godkitten combo fields and blast finishers seem like such a foreign thing these days.
And if you want a mechanic where most/all of the squad has to be stealthed in the matter of a second or two mid combat (i.e. making blasts due to the kittenton of fields unreliable so that you have to rely on, for example, shadow refuge), then that would be an absolute kitten mechanic.

And also, the real reason for this post was to show how they should make raids where bringing a specific class or 2 is needed.

No, they should not.

Ever.

Doing this would only cause “looking for Cleric” nonsense, and would also fragment static raid groups, as the least vital members would get kicked for various boss fights so that they could bring in a ringer ton fill a utility slot. It’s terrible for overall consistency.

What they need to do instead is help to ensure that ALL classes can perform at least one role in ALL raid encounters at a reasonably balanced level, so that you need 1-2 of classes A, B or C, 3-4 of classes D, E, or F, and the rest of classes G, H or I, so that a single party that can beat one encounter, with some minor build tweaks, can beat any encounter, and any role can be filled reasonably well by multiple classes.

Resolving that has more to do with class balance than encounter design though.

3. I wouldn’t say that raids are dead, only 10% of the playerbase manages to be successful at them

That would be pretty dead.

Ohoni.6057:

3. I wouldn’t say that raids are dead, only 10% of the playerbase manages to be successful at them

That would be pretty dead.

Not by standards established in other very successful mmos. 10% of the playerbase regularly completing raids would almost definitely put it above PvP, that’s for sure.

Not by standards established in other very successful mmos. 10% of the playerbase regularly completing raids would almost definitely put it above PvP, that’s for sure.

You’re not helping your case here.

I see all this talk about Thieves and Engineers wanting a raid spot, is everyone forgetting about the Guardian? The Guardian is ancient and needs a face lift because every time Anet puts something in the game it seems to have mechanics added to it to tell the Guardian and his abilities to kitten off.

Ohoni.6057:

Not by standards established in other very successful mmos. 10% of the playerbase regularly completing raids would almost definitely put it above PvP, that’s for sure.

You’re not helping your case here.

You do know most MMOs don’t even get up to 10% for raids, right?

You do know most MMOs don’t even get up to 10% for raids, right?

Yeah. That seems like a bit of a waste-of-time feature the way you sell it.

Ohoni.6057:

You do know most MMOs don’t even get up to 10% for raids, right?

Yeah. That seems like a bit of a waste-of-time feature the way you sell it.

Well considering there are 6 developers out of 300 working on raids (aka 2%), I would consider it a smashing success.

Edit: And to get partially back on topic, I think I found out another reason you hate raids like no tomorrow: you play a thief.

Deliberately miss the point all you like it doesn’t change the fact that raids are a successful feature in GW2 which are contributing to player retention.

Well considering there are 6 developers out of 300 working on raids (aka 2%), I would consider it a smashing success.

Edit: And to get partially back on topic, I think I found out another reason you hate raids like no tomorrow: you play a thief.

Well, not in raids, for what little time I’ve dabbled in raids it was Ele or Necro. I have 12 level 80s at the moment, and while my Thief is my main, my first launch character, the one I cleared HoT’s content with first, etc., I play with most of the others daily as well, to varying degrees. For the most part whichever class they would make viable, I’d be fine enough with that, but I do think they should all be viable in all boss fights in some role (and not just “it won’t hurt us too badly if you tag along”).

Deliberately miss the point all you like it doesn’t change the fact that raids are a successful feature in GW2 which are contributing to player retention.

That’s highly dubious thing to state as a fact.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s highly dubious thing to state as a fact.

Right i guess all those players saying they wouldn’t be here playing during this content drought if not for raids are just imaginary creatures.

Right i guess all those players saying they wouldn’t be here playing during this content drought if not for raids are just imaginary creatures.

Well if you mean “contributing to player retention” as in “there is a player, and he is retained because of it” then I suppose that’s fair enough, I mean I’m sure there is a player who is retained by doing the Kessex centaur chain every day, that’s no great claim. I typically take “contributing to player retention” to mean an actual net positive though, that it’s causing more players to have a positive view of the game (making them more likely to be retained) than it is causing a negative view of the game (making them less likely to be retained), and I think the numbers are still out on that one.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s highly dubious thing to state as a fact.

nah its a direct quote from mvps and the devs.

Ohoni.6057:

Well if you mean “contributing to player retention” as in “there is a player, and he is retained because of it” then I suppose that’s fair enough, I mean I’m sure there is a player who is retained by doing the Kessex centaur chain every day, that’s no great claim. I typically take “contributing to player retention” to mean an actual net positive though, that it’s causing more players to have a positive view of the game (making them more likely to be retained) than it is causing a negative view of the game (making them less likely to be retained), and I think the numbers are still out on that one.

creative interpretations of developer claims just undermine your argument