Guild Wars 2

Scipio.3204:

I don’t see how this is relevant, I don’t remember a time they weren’t hireing. The fact is majority of the raid team were with arenanet prior raids.

Still doesn’t change anything neither in term for raids nor against them. I haven’t brought this one up but I agree, it’s completely irrelevant.

Scipio.3204:

Their release schedule is the problem tho. Take 2016 for example. They released around 2 armor sets , 3 weapon sets around a dozen “unique piece” like backpacks and helmets and around 50 % of these things are behind raids, considering it’s likely we get a new raid with new stuff it won’t get better.

Now add to this that raids are meant for the minority and you’ll see the problem.

You are the first one complaining about having too few rewards outside of raids and raids being filled up with them on the other hand.

Absurdo stated it several times in the past: Most of the players blaming raids are blaming them because they are not willing to put effort into or for other reasons to get the rewards. If you argue in the way above you do not differ from that type of player.

I don’t see a problem here because most of the GW2 players that do not play raids also don’t care about them or their rewards.

Vinceman.4572:

Still doesn’t change anything neither in term for raids nor against them. I haven’t brought this one up but I agree, it’s completely irrelevant.

It doesn’t change you made a false statement without looking it up either.

Vinceman.4572:

Absurdo stated it several times in the past: Most of the players blaming raids are blaming them because they are not willing to put effort into or for other reasons to get the rewards. If you argue in the way above you do not differ from that type of player.

Hah, best source ever, but we already had this discussion before. I’m raiding myself even if not as much as I used to. The “git gud” argument won’t really work on me. Anyway we’ve gone off topic so I’ll stop my side of discussion here.

Which one? The one that not all of the raid team are new to Anet? I accept it but the direction you brought the argument was irrelevant, so it doesn’t matter if all or some are new. There is no way that this makes a difference to the discussion we were about.
Are you here to just have a right point on any little thing that is mentioned here or are you interested in the important question which is:
“Is the raid team denying us from having open world/fractal/whateverest content?”
The answer is straight No.
“Are the skin developers helping raids denying us from having open world/fractal/whateverest rewards?”
The answer is straight No again.

Scipio.3204:

Hah, best source ever, but we already had this discussion before. I’m raiding myself even if not as much as I used to. The “git gud” argument won’t really work on me. Anyway we’ve gone off topic so I’ll stop my side of discussion here.

Where is a “git gud” argument? I don’t care if you are raiding or not. I stopped a while because the three wings are already boring for me. Our both sides here are irrelevant once more.
The thing is: You haven’t understood or you don’t want to like in the past arguments we had together.

It’s more a reward argument: People want things served to them in this game without doing anything than pressing 1 iteratively. GW2s history in doing that is long. But since almost one year we have content that isn’t handed on a silver plate and overall we are doing very good with it. Look at the AB multiloot zombies players, they like such content and it’s there for them.
Only a tiny amount of players is grumpy about raids – still no huge skritt storm till today. It’s a small legion who is not pleased with actually doing something for their reward. I repeat myself, the majority of non-raiders doesn’t even care and plays open world, fracs, dungeons, pvp and wvw.

The fact that this game has problems has nothing to do with raids what we could have seen with the recent halloween patch (DR, class balancing, price of the raven and more) and Anet again not being without faults and upsetting people once again.

It sounds so melodramatic and usually I am not the guy coming up with end time atmosphere but if the game is dying it’s not due to raids. I see many more drastic issues in this game than some minor problems around raids.

thewaterguy.4796:

I am so sick of this stupid argument, their is nothing to argue, Raids SHOULD have a story mode or easier difficulty like Fractals, The argument comes from a selfish place of wanting to be a special little snowflake that gets exclusive access, the argument that it would take away from Raid development is kind of BS if you ask me, all they would have to do is change a couple of numbers around and it would open Raids up to be available to alot more players. I will never understand it, are you that starved for content and that impatient that the idea of letting a ton of other players have access to new content when a new raid comes out might interfere with you getting a raid that the idea infuriates you?

GW2 the MMO that has always stood for respecting a players time and everyone can enjoy the same content…is actively blocking people from raiding. And don’t even bother with the “your just mad” crap guys, my problem isn’t skill, my problem is lack of a group, and not I’m not interested in spending 5-7 hours in a single raid just to have everyone go “Oh well g2g guys bye!” ugh will Arenanet just add a difficulty selector already? I’m not even asking for the same rewards, I mostly would prefer to experience the story first hand as well as learn the game mechanics for myself so that maybe I’ll have a shot at you know…breaking into raiding

Please don’t bother offering me to join a group, I have put up with enough harassment and taunting from so called “Raiders” crying about how I can’t roll with them unless I have X Y Z A B C D G H L M and at least 2 of J and if I don’t have that I’m not “good enough” to be a raider and I should uninstall…this is the type of garbage I play GW2 to avoid, and yet…here it is…

No one wishes to be a special snowflake, dont be redicilous. It was said times and times over: Adding easy modes to raids with effectively kill them in the long run. Development on new raids will get slower, if devs relocate man power and resources to work on those new modes, which will be HUGE undertaking, because they will have to rework the mechanics to fit easy mode and nerf them in a such a way that it won’t be the -same- mechanics anymore. Sabetha and her flamewall was given, as an example. During the flamewall phase if your raid squad do no pay enough attention people gets killed. If your dps dealers dies your raid suffer dps lost, which means you wont be able to kill the boss in time and she will rage and wipe the group. If the healers are downed you are affectively left without healing and might as well wipe, if the tempests are downed that means you are left without people who rotate and take out cannons, which will spam the platform with their aoe’s.

Now tell me how making this mechanic dealing just a set amount of damage, which the healer will be able to heal right away instead of one shot killing you will teach the people in easy mode raids anything about this encounter when those people decide to go experience the boss on the hard (current) raid difficulty, because they will inevitably come to the point they will want the rewards associated with the raids, because lets not kid ourselves. Half of the people demanding raids to get easy mode are people who think they will do few easy mode run and then they will be hardened raiders ready to join the hard mode content and get all the loot. Or the cycle with the forum crying will repeat itself once again and people will jump the forum demanding the easy more raids gets more and better rewards.

They will be in for a rude awakening, thats what will happen. Because the moment the flamewall touches them and instead of burning some of their hp down, kills them straight off, the whole squad will panick and wipe. Raids are not fractals and they never were ment to be. In raids no one can’t ress you when you mess up certain mechanics, like you can be ress even in t4 fractals. Raids are hard content that punishes mistakes harshly when people go unprepared. This is why a certain builds are favoured and there is thing as gear check and kp link. Because people who create random groups intend on attemting a kill wants to make sure they do it with people who have experience, or people who at least did their homework and fixed their gear. Because if you go on VG for example with more thoughness then the person that should tank the boss, the boss will get fixated on you instead, naturally you will panick, gets thrown on the other part of the map, because you missed the blue circles in the mean time and the whole thing will become one big fail.

Since I got a bit carried away in my post I will summarise my initial point: You can’t learn raid mechanics by doing their nerfed to the ground easy mode copies. There is no way this will ever work and this is something Anet should never attempt to impliment, because it will effectively kill off raids eventually.

Blipp.5206:

…

tldr: “this will not work because I said so”
Except that WoW have exactly that mechanics and it works. So, is that WoW have that special kind of people who understands that “ability that almost killing you on lower difficulty WILL kill you on higher, better avoid that”, or you think that GW2 have even more special kind of people who unable to understand that?

Rednik.3809:

Blipp.5206:

…

tldr: “this will not work because I said so”
Except that WoW have exactly that mechanics and it works. So, is that WoW have that special kind of people who understands that “ability that almost killing you on lower difficulty WILL kill you on higher, better avoid that”, or you think that GW2 have even more special kind of people who unable to understand that?

It didn’t work for wow.

Most people who used the LFR for WoW never went on to do the hard mode equivalent of the same fight.

Rednik.3809:

Blipp.5206:

…

tldr: “this will not work because I said so”
Except that WoW have exactly that mechanics and it works. So, is that WoW have that special kind of people who understands that “ability that almost killing you on lower difficulty WILL kill you on higher, better avoid that”, or you think that GW2 have even more special kind of people who unable to understand that?

You don’t want an honest answer on this.

To me, it seems like most raids are balanced around DPS.

I think it would be healthier to balance them around healers and mechanics. Get rid of the time gating and enrage timers and make it a gauntlet of surviving the mechanics while completing tasks, which is basically what Escort is. And as far as I have seen, most people have the most fun with escort. All except super hard core l33t raiders.

Maybe make enrage timers a repeatable challenge mote that gives you double loot once per week.

Ging.6485:

To me, it seems like most raids are balanced around DPS.

I think it would be healthier to balance them around healers and mechanics. Get rid of the time gating and enrage timers and make it a gauntlet of surviving the mechanics while completing tasks, which is basically what Escort is. And as far as I have seen, most people have the most fun with escort. All except super hard core l33t raiders.

Maybe make enrage timers a repeatable challenge mote that gives you double loot once per week.

Bunkering does not promote a challenge, and that is all that would happen with your suggestion.

Ging.6485:

T And as far as I have seen, most people have the most fun with escort. All except super hard core l33t raiders.

I highly doubt that! Escort is ok for the first time, after that it’s getting heavily boring. The other fights are way more interesting.

Ging.6485:

To me, it seems like most raids are balanced around DPS.

I think it would be healthier to balance them around healers and mechanics. Get rid of the time gating and enrage timers and make it a gauntlet of surviving the mechanics while completing tasks, which is basically what Escort is. And as far as I have seen, most people have the most fun with escort. All except super hard core l33t raiders.

Maybe make enrage timers a repeatable challenge mote that gives you double loot once per week.

When you surround yourself with a certain type of people it does become harder for the individual to see the trees in the forest

Even leading training runs, most of the people i know despise escort and actually preferred the challenge the other non-event encounters offer.

Multiple modes is a bad idea because reasons that have been discussed ad infinitum.

There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the game expecting you to play at a certain level. If you don’t want to play at that level there is tons of content available for you; dungeons, fractals, LS steps and open world.

TexZero.7910:

When you surround yourself with a certain type of people it does become harder for the individual to see the trees in the forest

Do remember, that it’s the same for Raiders.

Sarrs.4831:

Multiple modes is a bad idea because reasons that have been discussed ad infinitum.

At the same time it’s also a good idea because of reasons that have been discussed ad infinitum.
It just so happens that arguments of one side generally do not hold any weight on the other side. Mostly because what one side considers to be positives, the other generally sees as negatives.
Yes, i am aware it works both ways.

The “but WoW does it” arguments really need to stop.

World of Warcraft was released in 2004 with 2 Raids. They added 1 Raid in 2006, 6 Raids in 2007, 3 Raids in 2008, 2 Raids in 2009, 5 Raids in 2010, 3 Raids in 2012, 2 Raids in 2013, 2 Raids in 2015. I’m not counting Raid wings or how large each Raid is for simplicity, the above count is not accurate by any means.
Total: 26 Raids over 12 years, that’s slightly more than 2 Raids per year.
We only have 1 Raid in 1 year since raiding was added and 1 raid in 4 years in GW2’s entire lifetime. I think it’s perfectly clear where the focus of each game is, and why a game really focused on Raiding might need multiple difficulty tiers while a game that has raiding as a side project does not.

Now if the game ever becomes more focused on Raiding than it already is then you can give the “but WoW does it” argument again and there would be merit for discussing it. The argument against more tiers of “it will take development time from Raids” will probably be worthless if the devs start releasing more Raids, more often, with a much larger/expanded team so the two sides might see eye to eye better. But it’s a rather big IF

maddoctor.2738:

World of Warcraft was released in 2004 with 2 Raids. They added 1 Raid in 2006, 6 Raids in 2007, 3 Raids in 2008, 2 Raids in 2009, 5 Raids in 2010, 3 Raids in 2012, 2 Raids in 2013, 2 Raids in 2015. I’m not counting Raid wings or how large each Raid is for simplicity, the above count is not accurate by any means.
Total: 26 Raids over 12 years, that’s slightly more than 2 Raids per year.
We only have 1 Raid in 1 year since raiding was added and 1 raid in 4 years in GW2’s entire lifetime. I think it’s perfectly clear where the focus of each game is, and why a game really focused on Raiding might need multiple difficulty tiers while a game that has raiding as a side project does not.

Also worth remembering that WoW raids in practice no longer exist in the form they existed in at the end of each patch. Progression races end, new expansions launch and content becomes irrelevant. That is not the case in GW2 and comparisons fundamentally fall on their face because of that.

maddoctor.2738:

The “but WoW does it” arguments really need to stop.

World of Warcraft was released in 2004 with 2 Raids. They added 1 Raid in 2006, 6 Raids in 2007, 3 Raids in 2008, 2 Raids in 2009, 5 Raids in 2010, 3 Raids in 2012, 2 Raids in 2013, 2 Raids in 2015. I’m not counting Raid wings or how large each Raid is for simplicity, the above count is not accurate by any means.
Total: 26 Raids over 12 years, that’s slightly more than 2 Raids per year.
We only have 1 Raid in 1 year since raiding was added and 1 raid in 4 years in GW2’s entire lifetime. I think it’s perfectly clear where the focus of each game is, and why a game really focused on Raiding might need multiple difficulty tiers while a game that has raiding as a side project does not.

Now if the game ever becomes more focused on Raiding than it already is then you can give the “but WoW does it” argument again and there would be merit for discussing it. The argument against more tiers of “it will take development time from Raids” will probably be worthless if the devs start releasing more Raids, more often, with a much larger/expanded team so the two sides might see eye to eye better. But it’s a rather big IF

So you admit that GW2 must either change raid development behavior for future raids, or stop developing them in current shape at all, because single difficulty model is proven as inferior by specialized raiding games.

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

The “but WoW does it” arguments really need to stop.

World of Warcraft was released in 2004 with 2 Raids. They added 1 Raid in 2006, 6 Raids in 2007, 3 Raids in 2008, 2 Raids in 2009, 5 Raids in 2010, 3 Raids in 2012, 2 Raids in 2013, 2 Raids in 2015. I’m not counting Raid wings or how large each Raid is for simplicity, the above count is not accurate by any means.
Total: 26 Raids over 12 years, that’s slightly more than 2 Raids per year.
We only have 1 Raid in 1 year since raiding was added and 1 raid in 4 years in GW2’s entire lifetime. I think it’s perfectly clear where the focus of each game is, and why a game really focused on Raiding might need multiple difficulty tiers while a game that has raiding as a side project does not.

Now if the game ever becomes more focused on Raiding than it already is then you can give the “but WoW does it” argument again and there would be merit for discussing it. The argument against more tiers of “it will take development time from Raids” will probably be worthless if the devs start releasing more Raids, more often, with a much larger/expanded team so the two sides might see eye to eye better. But it’s a rather big IF

So you admit that GW2 must either change raid development behavior for future raids, or stop developing them in current shape at all, because single difficulty model is proven as inferior by specialized raiding games.

Iirc the Raids in WoW provided a lot lower quality rewards for the lower difficulty Raids that acted as stepping stones for the higher difficulty and the fact that a WoW Raids were obsolete after what 1 year after being implemented.

So since Gw2 Doesn’t have that kind of Vertical progression gear system they would have to greatly reduced the rewards for any easier mode Raids since the regular rewards are pitiful and the only worthwhile items are those drops for crafting Legendary armor. Gw2 Raids are designed to not be obsolete with no vertical progression so this shouldn’t be an issue since most people that want easy modes for training purposes only or so they say.

But implementing this would cause for higher turn around time of content since it increases the work load no matter what and will take Devs from other portion of the game or from the existing raid team, either way it’s bad since it will impact other content development.

What I see with these threads are people that are salty that the Devs released something that did not have the casuals or non organized content players as the sole target for this content, wanting this one piece of the game be made for them mostly due to a shiny, some for the minuscule amount of story and others because they feel excluded from content that has absolutely no barriers besides owning HoT, oneself and being willing to work with others.

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

The “but WoW does it” arguments really need to stop.

World of Warcraft was released in 2004 with 2 Raids. They added 1 Raid in 2006, 6 Raids in 2007, 3 Raids in 2008, 2 Raids in 2009, 5 Raids in 2010, 3 Raids in 2012, 2 Raids in 2013, 2 Raids in 2015. I’m not counting Raid wings or how large each Raid is for simplicity, the above count is not accurate by any means.
Total: 26 Raids over 12 years, that’s slightly more than 2 Raids per year.
We only have 1 Raid in 1 year since raiding was added and 1 raid in 4 years in GW2’s entire lifetime. I think it’s perfectly clear where the focus of each game is, and why a game really focused on Raiding might need multiple difficulty tiers while a game that has raiding as a side project does not.

Now if the game ever becomes more focused on Raiding than it already is then you can give the “but WoW does it” argument again and there would be merit for discussing it. The argument against more tiers of “it will take development time from Raids” will probably be worthless if the devs start releasing more Raids, more often, with a much larger/expanded team so the two sides might see eye to eye better. But it’s a rather big IF

So you admit that GW2 must either change raid development behavior for future raids, or stop developing them in current shape at all, because single difficulty model is proven as inferior by specialized raiding games.

How did you reach that conclusion? I say the raids should either continue being limited in scope, or if they want to make this into an actual Raid game where most of their focus will be on Raids (and not in the open world) they’d need to rethink their raid strategy. And yes rethinking Raid strategy might also include multiple difficulty models, since we’ll have dozens of them instead of one, and the entire playerbase would need to take part in them since there would be limited amount of anything else to work on.

Also you are saying single difficulty was “proven inferior”, yet easier raids weren’t a thing in WoW for quite some years.
Looking for Raid tool was added in 2011, 7 (!!!) years after release and when the game had 19 Raids already.
Flexible raids were released in 2013, 9 years after release and when the game had 22 Raids already.

For SEVEN years they did just fine with a single difficulty. We are just 1 year after the release of Raids and have just a single Raid available. You need to get into perspective here.

Do you know if they plan on doing 2.5 Raids each year, or turn the focus from the open world to Raids?

Scipio.3204:

How exactly is the challenge mote at KC is “critical to the meaningful design of the content”?

Achievements: They’re important for an MMO even if you never do them yourself.

Astralporing.1957:

TexZero.7910:

When you surround yourself with a certain type of people it does become harder for the individual to see the trees in the forest

Do remember, that it’s the same for Raiders.

It’s almost like im posting from a position of having interacted with both the hardcore raiding crowd and those who are first timers (hence mentioning leading teaching runs).

Shock horror gasp i know….The point being made was people are different and just because the his friends enjoy super casual land doesn’t make it the status quo as they implied.

maddoctor.2738:

How did you reach that conclusion? I say the raids should either continue being limited in scope, or if they want to make this into an actual Raid game where most of their focus will be on Raids (and not in the open world) they’d need to rethink their raid strategy. And yes rethinking Raid strategy might also include multiple difficulty models, since we’ll have dozens of them instead of one, and the entire playerbase would need to take part in them since there would be limited amount of anything else to work on.

Also you are saying single difficulty was “proven inferior”, yet easier raids weren’t a thing in WoW for quite some years.
Looking for Raid tool was added in 2011, 7 (!!!) years after release and when the game had 19 Raids already.
Flexible raids were released in 2013, 9 years after release and when the game had 22 Raids already.

For SEVEN years they did just fine with a single difficulty. We are just 1 year after the release of Raids and have just a single Raid available. You need to get into perspective here.

Do you know if they plan on doing 2.5 Raids each year, or turn the focus from the open world to Raids?

Except that they started making easier raid mods in 2008, and since then only made this approach deeper and wider. I suppose that developers of must popular and successful raiding game ever made in history (even now, after 13 years it’s still number one) know that they are doing and how different difficulties are affecting player experience.

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

How did you reach that conclusion? I say the raids should either continue being limited in scope, or if they want to make this into an actual Raid game where most of their focus will be on Raids (and not in the open world) they’d need to rethink their raid strategy. And yes rethinking Raid strategy might also include multiple difficulty models, since we’ll have dozens of them instead of one, and the entire playerbase would need to take part in them since there would be limited amount of anything else to work on.

Also you are saying single difficulty was “proven inferior”, yet easier raids weren’t a thing in WoW for quite some years.
Looking for Raid tool was added in 2011, 7 (!!!) years after release and when the game had 19 Raids already.
Flexible raids were released in 2013, 9 years after release and when the game had 22 Raids already.

For SEVEN years they did just fine with a single difficulty. We are just 1 year after the release of Raids and have just a single Raid available. You need to get into perspective here.

Do you know if they plan on doing 2.5 Raids each year, or turn the focus from the open world to Raids?

Except that they started making easier raid mods in 2008, and since then only made this approach deeper and wider. I suppose that developers of must popular and successful raiding game ever made in history (even now, after 13 years it’s still number one) know that they are doing and how different difficulties are affecting player experience.

Those easy raidmodes also had significantly weaker gear/reward than the harder content, if they implement easier Raids than the rewards would have to be significantly less.

Rednik.3809:

maddoctor.2738:

How did you reach that conclusion? I say the raids should either continue being limited in scope, or if they want to make this into an actual Raid game where most of their focus will be on Raids (and not in the open world) they’d need to rethink their raid strategy. And yes rethinking Raid strategy might also include multiple difficulty models, since we’ll have dozens of them instead of one, and the entire playerbase would need to take part in them since there would be limited amount of anything else to work on.

Also you are saying single difficulty was “proven inferior”, yet easier raids weren’t a thing in WoW for quite some years.
Looking for Raid tool was added in 2011, 7 (!!!) years after release and when the game had 19 Raids already.
Flexible raids were released in 2013, 9 years after release and when the game had 22 Raids already.

For SEVEN years they did just fine with a single difficulty. We are just 1 year after the release of Raids and have just a single Raid available. You need to get into perspective here.

Do you know if they plan on doing 2.5 Raids each year, or turn the focus from the open world to Raids?

Except that they started making easier raid mods in 2008, and since then only made this approach deeper and wider. I suppose that developers of must popular and successful raiding game ever made in history (even now, after 13 years it’s still number one) know that they are doing and how different difficulties are affecting player experience.

When they did (2011) the game was near the peak of the population and then started progressively dropping. Then when they added even more easy modes (2013) it started dropping further, only spiking during expansions.

I’m not saying that the easy modes resulted in population drops, but that they did implement them because the pop was dropping.

And before you say “So they should implement easy modes to keep the population from dropping”, ask yourself the question: Which thing will keep the GW2 population happier: LS3 Episode4 or Easier Spirit Vale.

TexZero.7910:

Rednik.3809:

Blipp.5206:

…

tldr: “this will not work because I said so”
Except that WoW have exactly that mechanics and it works. So, is that WoW have that special kind of people who understands that “ability that almost killing you on lower difficulty WILL kill you on higher, better avoid that”, or you think that GW2 have even more special kind of people who unable to understand that?

It didn’t work for wow.

Most people who used the LFR for WoW never went on to do the hard mode equivalent of the same fight.

Of course it worked in WoW – or it wouldn’t be there anymore (and they definitely wouldn’t have built on it the way they have).

And who cares if people moved on to higher difficulties or not? Maybe the point is that they had fun with the content – the same way some people enjoy low level fractals for the experience of doing them and care nothing about doing anything above level 60.

Giving more people ways to have fun with the content is kinda the whole point.

maddoctor.2738:

When they did (2011) the game was near the peak of the population and then started progressively dropping. Then when they added even more easy modes (2013) it started dropping further, only spiking during expansions.

I’m not saying that the easy modes resulted in population drops, but that they did implement them because the pop was dropping.

And before you say “So they should implement easy modes to keep the population from dropping”, ask yourself the question: Which thing will keep the GW2 population happier: LS3 Episode4 or Easier Spirit Vale.

I don’t really understand why you trying to change 2008 into 2011. It was very beginning of WotLK when they implemented that, peak and unmatched record of MMO popularity.
Also easy modes have nothing to do with population drops, it was a method to introduce a wider population to raiding, because no one was happy with lots of developers work going waste because only tiny minority can experience raids. And WoW had exactly same arguments as here “blah-blah join guild, blah-blah make your own raid, blah-blah you are not trying enough, blah-blah raids are not for all”, and devs finally realized that they all was pointless and wrong.

Blaeys.3102:

TexZero.7910:

Rednik.3809:

Blipp.5206:

…

tldr: “this will not work because I said so”
Except that WoW have exactly that mechanics and it works. So, is that WoW have that special kind of people who understands that “ability that almost killing you on lower difficulty WILL kill you on higher, better avoid that”, or you think that GW2 have even more special kind of people who unable to understand that?

It didn’t work for wow.

Most people who used the LFR for WoW never went on to do the hard mode equivalent of the same fight.

Of course it worked in WoW – or it wouldn’t be there anymore (and they definitely wouldn’t have built on it the way they have).

And who cares if people moved on to higher difficulties or not? Maybe the point is that they had fun with the content – the same way some people enjoy low level fractals for the experience of doing them and care nothing about doing anything above level 60.

Giving more people ways to have fun with the content is kinda the whole point.

We really going to play that card, that an antiquated system is still being used therefore it must have worked ?

It failed miserably, the entire point of the design goal wasn’t to get them to play the mode. It was to bridge the gap and allow people to progress into harder content. Thus it completely failed on it’s design goal and is exactly why the lead dev Ghostcrawler said its his worst design mistake.

OnizukaBR.8537:

So after the topic of “Easy mode raids”, “Training raids”, “Story mode Raids”. Its the time for the “Fractal like raids” so we can bring the same argument over and over again. Modes should start merging this topics.
If you dont have anything to bring to the table besides the “i want” stop creating topics like this. And do some research and will see a lot of bad reasons why this is not a good idea.

I made that ‘training raids’ topic :p. And I had good intentions, I was hoping it would increase the longevity of raid content updates by adding more players to raid population which will incentives ANET to put more resources to raid content. + Low exp and new players will finally get to practice boss fights and stop making topics on how bad veteran raid players are at treating low exp players.

Rednik.3809:

I don’t really understand why you trying to change 2008 into 2011. It was very beginning of WotLK when they implemented that, peak and unmatched record of MMO popularity.

I think you got your dates wrong. WotLK introduced a tool to form raids, not an easy mode difficulty for them (still in 2009 btw not 2008). They had 2 raid varieties, 10-man (normal) and 25-man (heroic) Raids at the time but that did not also mean difficulty. The ACTUAL easy mode (Raid Finder) was introduced in 2011, which uses a new (lower quality) loot system. Which is the “mode” we are discussing here, or so I thought, an EASY mode. WoW and raids is a really really confusing thing.

Also easy modes have nothing to do with population drops, it was a method to introduce a wider population to raiding, because no one was happy with lots of developers work going waste because only tiny minority can experience raids. And WoW had exactly same arguments as here “blah-blah join guild, blah-blah make your own raid, blah-blah you are not trying enough, blah-blah raids are not for all”, and devs finally realized that they all was pointless and wrong.

As for this, I said it already and I can re-quote myself:

Now if the game ever becomes more focused on Raiding than it already is then you can give the “but WoW does it” argument again and there would be merit for discussing it. The argument against more tiers of “it will take development time from Raids” will probably be worthless if the devs start releasing more Raids, more often, with a much larger/expanded team so the two sides might see eye to eye better. But it’s a rather big IF

Is lots of developers time going to waste? I think we’ve already seen posts on how much of Anet is actually working on Raids, and is a very limited proportion of the company. The question is, is it equal to the “tiny minority” that experiences Raids?
And btw I think you need to define what you mean by “tiny”. Is it 2%? 10%? Or anything that isn’t done by the majority of players is called “tiny” now?

maddoctor.2738:

I think you got your dates wrong. WotLK introduced a tool to form raids, not an easy mode difficulty for them (still in 2009 btw not 2008). They had 2 raid varieties, 10-man (normal) and 25-man (heroic) Raids at the time but that did not also mean difficulty. The ACTUAL easy mode (Raid Finder) was introduced in 2011, which uses a new (lower quality) loot system. Which is the “mode” we are discussing here, or so I thought, an EASY mode. WoW and raids is a really really confusing thing.

Emm… you not played it back then, right? 10 man WAS an easy mode, much easier than 25 one. And it had lower ilvl loot because of that.

maddoctor.2738:

Is lots of developers time going to waste? I think we’ve already seen posts on how much of Anet is actually working on Raids, and is a very limited proportion of the company. The question is, is it equal to the “tiny minority” that experiences Raids?
And btw I think you need to define what you mean by “tiny”. Is it 2%? 10%? Or anything that isn’t done by the majority of players is called “tiny” now?

In this expansion we got 3 raid wings and another one incoming before next expansion. And one fractal for everyone else. Also, how about raids having more exclusive stuff than PvP and WvW combined?
And this you can call proportional, when less than 10% of population raiding regularly (if you can call 20LI per year “regularly”)?

Rednik.3809:

Emm… you not played it back then, right? 10 man WAS an easy mode, much easier than 25 one. And it had lower ilvl loot because of that.

No I didn’t but fortunately there are websites that have patch notes. From a quick internet search that doesn’t seem to be how it was. Or it was for a time, then changed. It seems like how raiding worked in WoW changed a million times since release, not including the various difficulties. I believe that at this point in time 10-man and 25-man Raids use the same loot and are supposed to be balanced effort/reward wise.

In this expansion we got 3 raid wings and another one incoming before next expansion. And one fractal for everyone else. Also, how about raids having more exclusive stuff than PvP and WvW combined?
And this you can call proportional, when less than 10% of population raiding regularly (if you can call 20LI per year “regularly”)?

We don’t have a dedicated Fractal team though, or a dungeon team, haven’t you noticed? It becomes once again a point of removing things from some parts of the game, to promote other parts of the game. Let’s say they created a fresh fractal team dedicated in creating a new fractal every 6 months. Where would the manpower come from? Of course you’d say the Raid team for some reason, but I’d say the Living World team (or the expansion team). The question is, would it be worth it.

maddoctor.2738:

We don’t have a dedicated Fractal team though, or a dungeon team, haven’t you noticed?

We might have had one, if we didn’t have Raid team though.

maddoctor.2738:

The question is, would it be worth it.

The same question remains about raids as well. And the answer is not as clear-cut as you might want.
I for one think, that if the same effort and developer workforce that’s now dedicated to raids was used on fractals and dungeons instead, the payoff would be better. And without the amount of negativity raids generate.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

We don’t have a dedicated Fractal team though, or a dungeon team, haven’t you noticed?

We might have had one, if we didn’t have Raid team though.

maddoctor.2738:

The question is, would it be worth it.

The same question remains about raids as well. And the answer is not as clear-cut as you might want.
I for one think, that if the same effort and developer workforce that’s now dedicated to raids was used on fractals and dungeons instead, the payoff would be better. And without the amount of negativity raids generate.

Those are some Rose tinted glasses, I remember since a month or two after launch only seeing Zerker Speed clears if you didn’t have full zerks you were kicked same with fractals it was a lot more negative than Raids are today.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

We don’t have a dedicated Fractal team though, or a dungeon team, haven’t you noticed?

We might have had one, if we didn’t have Raid team though.

maddoctor.2738:

The question is, would it be worth it.

The same question remains about raids as well. And the answer is not as clear-cut as you might want.
I for one think, that if the same effort and developer workforce that’s now dedicated to raids was used on fractals and dungeons instead, the payoff would be better. And without the amount of negativity raids generate.

Those are some Rose tinted glasses, I remember since a month or two after launch only seeing Zerker Speed clears if you didn’t have full zerks you were kicked same with fractals it was a lot more negative than Raids are today.

for every zerker speed clear lfg there was another (or two) casual ones. I have been pugging dungeons up until HoT with an AH bunker guard and didn’t get kicked (or fail the run) even once. And by the time i have finished the inefficient and long run, the restrictive LFGs were usually still waiting to be filled.
Same with fractals (though i pugged them less, and used guild runs more).

Not sure what that has to do with the worth of developer time when applied to different types of content however.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

We don’t have a dedicated Fractal team though, or a dungeon team, haven’t you noticed?

We might have had one, if we didn’t have Raid team though.

Your hate on raids, as demonstrated in almost all the posts on this topic, makes you totally blind. There is no dungeon team since 3 years or more, way before any raid. And fractals are still remade, so people are working on them.

Astralporing.1957:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

We don’t have a dedicated Fractal team though, or a dungeon team, haven’t you noticed?

We might have had one, if we didn’t have Raid team though.

maddoctor.2738:

The question is, would it be worth it.

The same question remains about raids as well. And the answer is not as clear-cut as you might want.
I for one think, that if the same effort and developer workforce that’s now dedicated to raids was used on fractals and dungeons instead, the payoff would be better. And without the amount of negativity raids generate.

Those are some Rose tinted glasses, I remember since a month or two after launch only seeing Zerker Speed clears if you didn’t have full zerks you were kicked same with fractals it was a lot more negative than Raids are today.

for every zerker speed clear lfg there was another (or two) casual ones. I have been pugging dungeons up until HoT with an AH bunker guard and didn’t get kicked (or fail the run) even once. And by the time i have finished the inefficient and long run, the restrictive LFGs were usually still waiting to be filled.
Same with fractals (though i pugged them less, and used guild runs more).
Not sure what that has to do with the worth of developer time when applied o different types of content however.

I was responding to your sentiment of saying there would be a lot less negativity, which the past has proven otherwise even when there was a dedicated Dungeon team. Plus the raid team isn’t why other parts of the game had slower content release, or lack of content, that all falls down to Anets release schedule, and one Dungeons were scrapped years ago because they were deemed inefficient to maintain and the team that designed them all left Anet, Fractals are the replacement for Dungeons and have been seeing some great improvements these last few months with new content and some really good reworks, hopefully Anet has a decent content release schedule planned out since I would love to see more added to fractals.

And don’t worry you won’t have to see Raiders getting any new content for quite a while and you won’t need to be jealous.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

We don’t have a dedicated Fractal team though, or a dungeon team, haven’t you noticed?

We might have had one, if we didn’t have Raid team though.

We didn’t have a Fractal team for a long time before Raids were released or even announced. Blame the living world and the massive blob events for the neglect of fractals and dungeons. Not Raids.

The same question remains about raids as well.

I agree. But the uncertainty of the answer works both ways in the context of this thread. Why add new features (for example multiple difficulty tiers) to something that might not be worth it in the first place? I’d wait for a more definite answer before going on about Accessibility.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

We don’t have a dedicated Fractal team though, or a dungeon team, haven’t you noticed?

We might have had one, if we didn’t have Raid team though.

We didn’t have a Fractal team for a long time before Raids were released or even announced. Blame the living world and the massive blob events for the neglect of fractals and dungeons. Not Raids.

The same question remains about raids as well.

I agree. But the uncertainty of the answer works both ways in the context of this thread. Why add new features (for example multiple difficulty tiers) to something that might not be worth it in the first place? I’d wait for a more definite answer before going on about Accessibility.

We also only got one new fractal in years … seems making difficulty levels is harder than just tweaking some numbers.

Absurdo.8309:

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

We don’t have a dedicated Fractal team though, or a dungeon team, haven’t you noticed?

We might have had one, if we didn’t have Raid team though.

We didn’t have a Fractal team for a long time before Raids were released or even announced. Blame the living world and the massive blob events for the neglect of fractals and dungeons. Not Raids.

The same question remains about raids as well.

I agree. But the uncertainty of the answer works both ways in the context of this thread. Why add new features (for example multiple difficulty tiers) to something that might not be worth it in the first place? I’d wait for a more definite answer before going on about Accessibility.

We also only got one new fractal in years … seems making difficulty levels is harder than just tweaking some numbers.

Or not…. Arenanet has plenty of reason not to focus resources on new fractals. Just to list a few

- New fractals doesn’t increase the replayability of FotM what so ever.
- The number of fractals they can release is 10 more, if they reach that they have to do an overhaul once again if they want to add new ones
- FotM isn’t a thing they can reasonably sell again.

Arenanet already proved it they can make scaling content rather easily. They made a fractal from scratch in less than 4 months with 50 difficulty levels and a story version. The main reason we don’t see new fractals regulary isnt because “They’re hard to do”

Scipio.3204:

Absurdo.8309:

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

We don’t have a dedicated Fractal team though, or a dungeon team, haven’t you noticed?

We might have had one, if we didn’t have Raid team though.

We didn’t have a Fractal team for a long time before Raids were released or even announced. Blame the living world and the massive blob events for the neglect of fractals and dungeons. Not Raids.

The same question remains about raids as well.

I agree. But the uncertainty of the answer works both ways in the context of this thread. Why add new features (for example multiple difficulty tiers) to something that might not be worth it in the first place? I’d wait for a more definite answer before going on about Accessibility.

We also only got one new fractal in years … seems making difficulty levels is harder than just tweaking some numbers.

Or not…. Arenanet has plenty of reason not to focus resources on new fractals. Just to list a few

- New fractals doesn’t increase the replayability of FotM what so ever.
- The number of fractals they can release is 10 more, if they reach that they have to do an overhaul once again if they want to add new ones
- FotM isn’t a thing they can reasonably sell again.

Arenanet already proved it they can make scaling content rather easily. They made a fractal from scratch in less than 4 months with 50 difficulty levels and a story version. The main reason we don’t see new fractals regulary isnt because “They’re hard to do”

What are you referring to? I’m not aware of a such a fractal.

Absurdo.8309:

Scipio.3204:

Absurdo.8309:

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

We don’t have a dedicated Fractal team though, or a dungeon team, haven’t you noticed?

We might have had one, if we didn’t have Raid team though.

We didn’t have a Fractal team for a long time before Raids were released or even announced. Blame the living world and the massive blob events for the neglect of fractals and dungeons. Not Raids.

The same question remains about raids as well.

I agree. But the uncertainty of the answer works both ways in the context of this thread. Why add new features (for example multiple difficulty tiers) to something that might not be worth it in the first place? I’d wait for a more definite answer before going on about Accessibility.

We also only got one new fractal in years … seems making difficulty levels is harder than just tweaking some numbers.

Or not…. Arenanet has plenty of reason not to focus resources on new fractals. Just to list a few

- New fractals doesn’t increase the replayability of FotM what so ever.
- The number of fractals they can release is 10 more, if they reach that they have to do an overhaul once again if they want to add new ones
- FotM isn’t a thing they can reasonably sell again.

Arenanet already proved it they can make scaling content rather easily. They made a fractal from scratch in less than 4 months with 50 difficulty levels and a story version. The main reason we don’t see new fractals regulary isnt because “They’re hard to do”

What are you referring to? I’m not aware of a such a fractal.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractured

Back then when they changed the max fractal lvl to 50, every level had the chance to be any of the fractals. (And even before that, with the exception of Jade Maw)

Also if my memory serves me right , fractals before the “Fractured” release could potentially scale to infinity, with only Agony being in the way. I remember people had so high fractal level, anet never intented them to have , but they managed to bypass the Agony gate.

On the 4 months, Kiel won the election early August 2013 and they delivered the fractal late November.

Scipio.3204:

Arenanet already proved it they can make scaling content rather easily. They made a fractal from scratch in less than 4 months with 50 difficulty levels and a story version. The main reason we don’t see new fractals regulary isnt because “They’re hard to do”

Fractal scaling is very easy, because aside from some of the early levels all that’s changing is mob hit points and damage. There are no overly complex mechanics in Fractals either and those mechanics that DO exist do not change with the level at all. There is absolutely no difference in Fractal mechanics, mobs don’t go faster, counters don’t expire sooner, AoEs don’t pulse slower. Fractals were created with scaling in mind, that’s why they are easy to scale, it’s only damage and hit points nothing else.

There is a vast difference between a mechanic that deals damage (that can be scaled up or down) and a mechanic that is 1-shot killing people by design. There is a vast difference between a mechanics that cause wipes or make completing the content really hard if you fail, and mechanics that simply deal some extra damage that you can heal or tank.

Apples and oranges. If you find some of the proposals in this thread and others about how easy mode would work, they all contain much more than tweaking damage and hit points. They say to make mobs slower moving, make 1-shot kill attacks deal damage, make area of effect circles fill up slower and a bazillion other things that DO NOT EXIST in Fractals. Sure make an easy mode were bosses have 10% less Hit Points and their normal attack deal 10% less damage, see how successful that would be.

Maybe they could add difficulty levels in their Next Raid if it’s created in a similar manner to Fractals, tweaked through damage / hit point values. If it’s created that way then changing the difficulty by tweaking numbers is certainly possible. But Spirit Vale is not a simple “numbers tweak”.

maddoctor.2738:

Scipio.3204:

Arenanet already proved it they can make scaling content rather easily. They made a fractal from scratch in less than 4 months with 50 difficulty levels and a story version. The main reason we don’t see new fractals regulary isnt because “They’re hard to do”

Fractal scaling is very easy, because aside from some of the early levels all that’s changing is mob hit points and damage. There are no overly complex mechanics in Fractals either and those mechanics that DO exist do not change with the level at all. There is absolutely no difference in Fractal mechanics, mobs don’t go faster, counters don’t expire sooner, AoEs don’t pulse slower. Fractals were created with scaling in mind, that’s why they are easy to scale, it’s only damage and hit points nothing else.

There is a vast difference between a mechanic that deals damage (that can be scaled up or down) and a mechanic that is 1-shot killing people by design. There is a vast difference between a mechanics that cause wipes or make completing the content really hard if you fail, and mechanics that simply deal some extra damage that you can heal or tank.

Apples and oranges. If you find some of the proposals in this thread and others about how easy mode would work, they all contain much more than tweaking damage and hit points. They say to make mobs slower moving, make 1-shot kill attacks deal damage, make area of effect circles fill up slower and a bazillion other things that DO NOT EXIST in Fractals. Sure make an easy mode were bosses have 10% less Hit Points and their normal attack deal 10% less damage, see how successful that would be.

Maybe they could add difficulty levels in their Next Raid if it’s created in a similar manner to Fractals, tweaked through damage / hit point values. If it’s created that way then changing the difficulty by tweaking numbers is certainly possible. But Spirit Vale is not a simple “numbers tweak”.

I was not comparing anything to anything, I just simply corrected someone who had a misconception.

But if you insist, sure , we could jump into it and discuss scaling implementation to raids. Unfortunately I’m in kind of a hurry and I won’t be able to respond in the next 4-5 day, but in the meantime I’d like to ask you the following:

You yourself said that implementing scaleable difficulties is easy, but raids have the problem because some mechanics can’t be adjusted that way. Could you list me these mechanics? Also I disagree on hit points and damage being the only things that could be easily adjusted, considering fractals have instabilities and several other things like more time in the old swamp for orbs , more mobs spawning etc.

What I consider to be scaleable is in addition to damage and hit point:

- Break Bar hit points
- Enrage timer
- Number of people required on certain spots ( Green Circles)
- Amount of time between mechanic activations
- Enemy cast time
-Number of adds
-Number/Size of AoE s

Scipio.3204:

Absurdo.8309:

Scipio.3204:

Absurdo.8309:

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

We don’t have a dedicated Fractal team though, or a dungeon team, haven’t you noticed?

We might have had one, if we didn’t have Raid team though.

We didn’t have a Fractal team for a long time before Raids were released or even announced. Blame the living world and the massive blob events for the neglect of fractals and dungeons. Not Raids.

The same question remains about raids as well.

I agree. But the uncertainty of the answer works both ways in the context of this thread. Why add new features (for example multiple difficulty tiers) to something that might not be worth it in the first place? I’d wait for a more definite answer before going on about Accessibility.

We also only got one new fractal in years … seems making difficulty levels is harder than just tweaking some numbers.

Or not…. Arenanet has plenty of reason not to focus resources on new fractals. Just to list a few

- New fractals doesn’t increase the replayability of FotM what so ever.
- The number of fractals they can release is 10 more, if they reach that they have to do an overhaul once again if they want to add new ones
- FotM isn’t a thing they can reasonably sell again.

Arenanet already proved it they can make scaling content rather easily. They made a fractal from scratch in less than 4 months with 50 difficulty levels and a story version. The main reason we don’t see new fractals regulary isnt because “They’re hard to do”

What are you referring to? I’m not aware of a such a fractal.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractured

Back then when they changed the max fractal lvl to 50, every level had the chance to be any of the fractals. (And even before that, with the exception of Jade Maw)

Also if my memory serves me right , fractals before the “Fractured” release could potentially scale to infinity, with only Agony being in the way. I remember people had so high fractal level, anet never intented them to have , but they managed to bypass the Agony gate.

On the 4 months, Kiel won the election early August 2013 and they delivered the fractal late November.

I think you’re proving my point here …

Fractals released in November 2012.
Update in November 2013 with:
- One completely new fractal
- Four Fractals based on living story content
Update in 2016 with one new fractal

In four years, we’ve only had 6 additional fractals — four based on previous content.

In less than one year, we’ve had nine raid encounters.

I don’t want raids to be like fractals.

Scipio.3204:

On the 4 months, Kiel won the election early August 2013 and they delivered the fractal late November.

Yeah, as if they have started developing this specific fractal after the vote. Both were ready to go and already in the drawer. They just had to pick out the one the community wanted and adjust it for a release.

No tiers but we absolutely need more trainers.

If Anet does consider an easy mode RAIDS changes below probably wont hurt much
1) Remove enrage time
2) Dead can be res with res orb or by players.
3) Drop & reward: Li and special drop disabled upon killing boss, shards increase minimally (encourage exp raid players to join). Also perhaps a new item drop upon boss kill that can be accumulated and exchanged for Li with raid merchant (say 10 x for 1 Li).

Vinceman.4572:

Scipio.3204:

On the 4 months, Kiel won the election early August 2013 and they delivered the fractal late November.

Yeah, as if they have started developing this specific fractal after the vote. Both were ready to go and already in the drawer.

Yeah, right, while in the height of their work crunch, they decided to make two fractals knowing one will go in the trash bin.
And later on, being in the middle of content drought, having already done Abaddon fractal they still didn’t put it in game.

Suuuuure.

Scipio.3204:

I was not comparing anything to anything, I just simply corrected someone who had a misconception.

This part:

Arenanet already proved it they can make scaling content rather easily.

They CAN make scaling content easily when it doesn’t take any kind work. Fractals use the event scaling system and nothing else, see how that worked with super mob toughness making power builds obsolete. Then they had to actually work for it, to make toughness scaling better. How long did it take them to change toughness scaling at higher level fractals?

You yourself said that implementing scaleable difficulties is easy, but raids have the problem because some mechanics can’t be adjusted that way. Could you list me these mechanics?

All the 1-shot kill mechanics for starters. Like Sabetha’s Flamewall and Gorseval’s World Eater. The moment you make an 1-shot kill mechanic not a 1-shot kill mechanic for whatever reason, then it’s not the same thing anymore. Regardless of the change.

Also I disagree on hit points and damage being the only things that could be easily adjusted, considering fractals have instabilities and several other things like more time in the old swamp for orbs , more mobs spawning etc.

The instabilities change the encounters and we get in weird situations where higher level fractals are easier than the lower level ones. Do you remember what happened with Cliffside at the latest Fractal update? Was a nightmare. There is nothing similar to instabilities in Raids. More timer to run the wisps is actually the only not-hit point, not-damage change in Fractals, the others are simple removals of mechanics, like harpies not using their knockdown attack, or Old Tom not using his poison effect on Uncategorized fractal. Not nerfed/reduced mechanics, but completely removed.

Still, Raid bosses like VG already have this between phases, one phase is easier than the next ones, and they get progressively harder. It’s like fighting Old Tom multiple times, a T1, a T2 and a T3 version, each time a new mechanic is added.

Maybe to make people happy they could add a green/blue chest reward when you phase VG (once per week). So you can feel like you completed the easy version of VG when you sent him to the next phase. I mean when people talk about rewards for easy mode, they do want some shards (you get them when you phase him anyway) and some little extra (that extra loot chest I added). Bam easy mode completed.

- Break Bar hit points
- Enrage timer
- Number of people required on certain spots ( Green Circles)
- Amount of time between mechanic activations
- Enemy cast time
-Number of adds
-Number/Size of AoE s

Yet none of these exist in Fractal difficulty scaling, maybe only the number of adds at T1 difficulties, so how exactly do you conclude that making multiple tiers in fractals easily means they can also make multiple tiers in Raids easily? One doesn’t lead to the other.

Also, reducing mechanical requirements does lead to a different encounter, like reducing the number of people needed for green circles would change the team composition, which one very important aspect of raiding in the first place.

Before even moving to the subject of actual multiple tiers, there are the questions of:
How easy, is easy enough? Follow up: how many new difficulty tiers are needed?
Do we want it to be used as training, as a way to see the story or as a way to get access to the same rewards but at a reduced pacing? Follow up: What about these rewards?

Astralporing.1957:

Yeah, right, while in the height of their work crunch, they decided to make two fractals knowing one will go in the trash bin.
And later on, being in the middle of content drought, having already done Abaddon fractal they still didn’t put it in game.

Suuuuure.

Yes, that’s exactly the thing in this case!

1. Players were asking about the other fractal from time to time after the vote. The answer was: We could but we wouldn’t undermine the coms vote.

2. You haven’t played since headstart, do you? If so, you should know well about LS1 content. They threw it away after using it ingame only for a couple of weeks. That was the worst decision but it was the game philosophy of the company and it was horrible. Sadly, the fractal issue fell exactly in this period.
You had a look at woodenpotatoes from time to time? He was datamining a lot of open world stuff in the past. Some maps directly in the heart of our game map are/were ready to go. So, further ahead than just a thought on a board during a brainstorming. Yet, these maps are not in the game and most likely discarded for whateverest reasons. But hey, we got maps in the northwest, west and southwest (HoT maps, raid maps, new LS3 maps). Same with pvp maps, some of very well-looking maps were landing in the trash can.

3. At last, don’t forget that they had 0 focus to instanced content at this time. Dungeon team was already dismissed and things like dungeons & fractals were treated stepmotherly. Of course they wouldn’t focus on two fracs even though both were almost good to go.

Vinceman.4572:

1. Players were asking about the other fractal from time to time after the vote. The answer was: We could but we wouldn’t undermine the coms vote.

They said they could make it, but they won’t, because they don’t want to undermine the vote. It would have been different if they had it finished already (if they did both fractals, they would never have made a vote that would completely exclude one from ever being implemented).

Vinceman.4572:

2. You haven’t played since headstart, do you? If so, you should know well about LS1 content. They threw it away after using it ingame only for a couple of weeks.

On the contrary, i have. And if you did too, then you should have remembered that those events were not made to last from the get go. In fact, those events that were (dungeons) were repurposed later on for fractals.

Vinceman.4572:

That was the worst decision but it was the game philosophy of the company and it was horrible. Sadly, the fractal issue fell exactly in this period.

Apples and oranges. You’re comparing story events that were designed to last for a short time, and (due to being open world) couldn’t really be retained with a fractal instance that would have been made to be repeatable outside of LS1.

Vinceman.4572:

You had a look at woodenpotatoes from time to time? He was datamining a lot of open world stuff in the past. Some maps directly in the heart of our game map are/were ready to go.

Have you looked at them? None of those maps were in a finished state.

Vinceman.4572:

Same with pvp maps, some of very well-looking maps were landing in the trash can.

There were reasons why, for example, old Capricorn got trashcanned.

Vinceman.4572:

3. At last, don’t forget that they had 0 focus to instanced content at this time. Dungeon team was already dismissed and things like dungeons & fractals were treated stepmotherly. Of course they wouldn’t focus on two fracs even though both were almost good to go.

They managed to redo 2 dungeons into fractals in that time, remember?

And since that time they had one new fractal made. Do you really think that after HoT, during content drought, they would have been working on Chaos fractal if they could just do some finishing touches on Abaddon and have a new content ready at a fraction of the effort?