Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

The bottom line stands: They aren’t able to develop a fractal within 4 months. They neither were back in the days nor are they at the moment.

That’s all what needed to be said.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

(edited by Vinceman.4572)

Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

The bottom line stands: They aren’t able to develop a fractal within 4 months. They neither were back in the days nor are they at the moment.

That’s all what needed to be said.

So they said that they can make a huge raid wing in a 4 months with like 5-6 people, but cannot make a fractal map. Riiiiight.

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Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

I can’t see any other new fractals around, except Chaos since years, which is, 100% of all GW2 players agree with me, not new.
So, either they are not able to or they are just not willing to do so.

But again, some of you are here just for discussing anything far away from the topic only to prove you have a point. A point in whatever you can get only to have one. ^^

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

The bottom line stands: They aren’t able to develop a fractal within 4 months. They neither were back in the days nor are they at the moment.

You realize you have nothing to back up your claim besides some tinfoil-hat level conspiracy theory?

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

You realize you have nothing to back up your claim besides some tinfoil-hat level conspiracy theory?

Yeah, nail me down on this, i appreciate it.

But ok, let’s have a straight look: Where are the 4 month intervals in presenting us new fractals?
Before Chaos there were years of emptiness and I repeat myself: Chaos is not new.
So, either they aren’t/weren’t able to deliver step by step or they have had other plans.
Thing is fractals never had a high priority besides a rework before HoT. It changed with HoT which is now 1 year old and besides some frac reworks we only had Chaos although they made it to their “current 5-man-instanced content”. One year with almost nothing and a community here in this part of the forum claiming new fractal content for years.
I stay with my statement: They don’t want or they aren’t able to.

things to add:
- still no proof that there has been a fractal development within 4 months from the first drawings/graphical designs to almost bug-free release.

- subject is hard off-topic and still nobody knows why that matters in this specific thread.
if you think logical and stay on the non-proven point they can create a fractal in 4 months it is an obvious desaster that we are having raids with 3 wings from a team with 5-6 ppl and not a single new fractal within a year. you really should make some noise and blame the ppl in power for fractal development. but i tell you something you won’t like: they have nothing to do with the raid guys.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

But ok, let’s have a straight look: Where are the 4 month intervals in presenting us new fractals?

Answer is very simple actually. They listened to loud minority and made their stake on raids. And failed hard.

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

Hahahaha, and Astralporing is imputing conspiracy theories to me.

Rednik, sorry but the speedrun dungeon community which was the only little bit organized active part as your mentioned minority never called out for raids.
We wanted challenging content and we got it, that’s nice. But none of us was satisfied in the first place they treated dungeons and also fractals. As an active reader and writer you should know that.
On the other hand I don’t see why a team of 5-6 ppl for raid development should be the reason against new innovations in fractal development. The fact that they are working on fracs – see 3rd or 4th rework of them – is a proof against your populist statement. These reworks should be final for the next years so all what left is the start of bringing out new fracs.

And raids aren’t a failure. Maybe for you personally but not for the raiding audience enjoying the content every single day.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

Hahahaha, and Astralporing is imputing conspiracy theories to me.

Rednik, sorry but the speedrun dungeon community which was the only little bit organized active part as your mentioned minority never called out for raids.
We wanted challenging content and we got it, that’s nice. But none of us was satisfied in the first place they treated dungeons and also fractals. As an active reader and writer you should know that.
On the other hand I don’t see why a team of 5-6 ppl for raid development should be the reason against new innovations in fractal development. The fact that they are working on fracs – see 3rd or 4th rework of them – is a proof against your populist statement. These reworks should be final for the next years so all what left is the start of bringing out new fracs.

And raids aren’t a failure. Maybe for you personally but not for the raiding audience enjoying the content every single day.

Raids are not failure by themselves. Way they was implemented is, which is turned into all-time low mark for a game. And it was so hard that they even were forced to drop second raid. Remember all their brave reddit posts about how raids are great and how they happy to make more and able to? And then suddenly monetary statistics from NCsoft is released and its all gone. Then we suddenly getting a LS3 (which was postponed again and again before), instant new fractal which looks suspiciously ragtag composition from existing ones, and after all bright raid announcements – only single wing, to finish legendary collection.
Call it a tinfoil hattery, but I predict some news in future. Like either changed raid development paradigm, with different modes, or even raids going same road as fractals after first year – forgotten for years with only cosmetic changes. Personally I prefer the former, because I don’t want to see raids to be dropped and forgotten only because their auditory is narrow and development resources are finite.

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Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

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Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

The all-time low mark for a game was due to horrible HoT-map decisions for the casual base of this game which were reverted or – call it adjusted – with the patch in April – definitely too late because GW2 had been going down months if not a year or two before because there were several content droughts and no bigger improvements. The massive amount of players already had left the game long before so no wonder why sales were behind expectations. The company is too small and their product too special to hold such a huge playerbase like others can do.
There was no big outcry and players leaving in droves because raids are so hard/bad/whateverest.

And where were they forced to drop a second raid? I’ve never read an official statement about it. wth?
Instead, they were constantly designing new wings and actually a new raid. The next door for a new one is already there.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

(edited by Vinceman.4572)

Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Call it a tinfoil hattery, but I predict some news in future. Like either changed raid development paradigm, with different modes, or even raids going same road as fractals after first year – forgotten for years with only cosmetic changes. Personally I prefer the former, because I don’t want to see raids to be dropped and forgotten only because their auditory is narrow and development resources are finite.

Even if, which is a huge if, they bring multiple difficulty levels, they will probably apply to the second Raid only because it will made in a way that supports them. Spirit Vale doesn’t.

And second problem with multiple difficulties is that the community and those who ask for them on these forums haven’t reached an agreement on why they want the multiple difficulty settings in the first place. “Add an easy mode for raids” isn’t a valid argument because there are a bazillion ways of making raids easier but all of them work in a completely different way.

Do you want the easy mode to experience the story?
Do you want the easy mode to train for the normal mode?
Do you want the easy mode to access legendary armor achievements?
Do you want the easy mode to get access to all Raid rewards but at a reduced pace?

Which is it?

Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

They have made it abundantly clear that they want the rewards and not the content. The logic and reasoning that have already been given out has been ignored outright, they want to butcher raiding period, which ironically their cries for change are likely exactly the kind of reaction the devs have hoped for.

I am going to put on my tin-foil hat here, and say that the only reason the mods aren’t shutting these threads coming up and up now, is simply at the request of the raid devs who are seeing their encounters bear continued fruit of salty tears. And rightfully so, they have done a great job creating content that is challenging enough to weed out the players who quit trying so quickly. And they have zero reason to acknowledge the arguments made as a dev some months ago pointed out, Raid attendance is actually higher than anticipated.

…I wonder if the next wing in that case might be even harder, I can imagine they were impressed by how quickly the raid community grew in just a year. They can keep the raid development team small and focused, and have the majority of the Arenanet staff focus on everything else. If even 5% of the playerbase were actively doing raids thanks to around 5 devs focused on raiding, that’s still an amazing attendance.

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

Even if, which is a huge if, they bring multiple difficulty levels, they will probably apply to the second Raid only because it will made in a way that supports them. Spirit Vale doesn’t.

And second problem with multiple difficulties is that the community and those who ask for them on these forums haven’t reached an agreement on why they want the multiple difficulty settings in the first place. “Add an easy mode for raids” isn’t a valid argument because there are a bazillion ways of making raids easier but all of them work in a completely different way.

Do you want the easy mode to experience the story?
Do you want the easy mode to train for the normal mode?
Do you want the easy mode to access legendary armor achievements?
Do you want the easy mode to get access to all Raid rewards but at a reduced pace?

Which is it?

Obviously one that will keep raids from dropping from development board by increasing their auditory – a training one. Everything ascended and legendary quest items could be removed from loot table, except maybe shards (or they can even make last wing boss still drop one LI, to motivate experienced guys actually do this mode too).

I wonder if the next wing in that case might be even harder, I can imagine they were impressed by how quickly the raid community grew in just a year. They can keep the raid development team small and focused, and have the majority of the Arenanet staff focus on everything else. If even 5% of the playerbase were actively doing raids thanks to around 5 devs focused on raiding, that’s still an amazing attendance.

Hate to shatter your rose glasses, but when I looked at percentage of people having at least one LI for first time, it was like 28%. Now it’s 24.5%.
Also, for “small and focused team”, they never said that any wings was actually MADE by small team, only “they worked on them” before release. Zero instanced content in HoT outside of raid and story also hinting on that.

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Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

Hate to shatter your rose glasses, but when I looked at percentage of people having at least one LI for first time, it was like 28%. Now it’s 24.5%.

What an upset! Nearly a quarter of the populace you took your accurate sample information from have killed at least one raid boss. Man, you got me, after all I set the low bar of 5% being an acceptable number for a few dedicated raid devs.

…If anything you defeated your own argument there, a quarter of the accounts you pulled LI information from have an LI, that’s insane participation, that shows wild success. Even if you were to assume an absurd 50% deviation where that nearly 25% could fluctuate to as low as only 12%, that would dedicate themselves to raiding every week, that percentage is still much, much higher than the threshold raiding would have to work with given the dedicated staff.

Furthermore, they did say they had only around 5 members dedicated to the raid staff, whose primary purpose much like the other dedicated devs for SPvP, Balance, Living Story is fixated on that content only. There’s music development, Terrain creation, Art and Design teams that get shared by all teams involved, and that’s how content is made! Those other teams that come in require a direction from the dedicated teams, or else we would have some rather odd music choices in content. Last time I checked, I doubt it would be a good idea letting the Music development put in ill-fitted music in some areas.

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

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Posted by: Alex Shatter.7956

Alex Shatter.7956

So after the topic of “Easy mode raids”, “Training raids”, “Story mode Raids”. Its the time for the “Fractal like raids” so we can bring the same argument over and over again. Modes should start merging this topics.
If you dont have anything to bring to the table besides the “i want” stop creating topics like this. And do some research and will see a lot of bad reasons why this is not a good idea.

You mean, a lot of good reasons? Because all that he can find against is “we don’t need because I don’t want to/devs must make more raids for me instead of modes for you all/l2p n00bs/who cares about statistics and other games, we don’t need it”.

Adding tiers or difficulty modes increases the amount of time the devs need to spend on raids, thus diverting resources from elsewhere. Thus fewer raids or fewer changes to fractals (including new ones) or slower release cadence for living world or…

I say this as someone who was against raids being added to the game in the first place, someone who hasn’t cleared a wing, and someone who isn’t likely to get 10 regulars or PUG aids any time in the near future.

Raids are doing exactly what they were intending to do: provide a type of challenging group content for the fraction of the player base that wants it. The vast majority of the game is designed to appeal to the rest of us.

How much time does it take to switch some numbers? Make bosses do less damage, and take more damage. Keep the mechanics as is so that people can eventually learn them and do the harder versions. Raids are already instanced, and mostly all of the content is there.

By making raids accessible to casual players, they are delivering comparatively a massive amount of content to casual players to the small amount of effort it would take to do so.

It’s ridiculous that so many developer resources and overhead time went into making these three fabulous raid chapters and only 10% of the player base gets to enjoy them. It’s just plain wasteful of content

EDIT: inb4 25% of players have completed a raid boss, but how many people run every raid once a week? Those are the only players that get true unrestricted enjoyment out of this game mode

(edited by Alex Shatter.7956)

Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

How much time does it take to switch some numbers? Make bosses do less damage, and take more damage. Keep the mechanics as is so that people can eventually learn them and do the harder versions. Raids are already instanced, and mostly all of the content is there.

It’s not hard to tweak the numbers. The mechanics change completely when you can ignore them. Making VG’s Green circles do even 10% less damage can be healed through. You can outright start ignoring mechanics that aren’t intended on instant killing you.

While things like Gorseval’s World Ender or Sabetha’s Flame Thrower likely wouldn’t change per your request, players wouldn’t get any relevant training on the encounter compared to the real thing when the easier versions had them ignore such mechanics.

…This point has been stated probably 20+ times now.

By making raids accessible to casual players, they are delivering comparatively a massive amount of content to casual players to the small amount of effort it would take to do so.

You have no idea of the effort that it would take, nor the impact it would have. Do casual players even care for raids? What makes you think casual guilds want to be restricted to just 10 people when they can go into AB with the full guild? You are speculating heavily at this point.

What we actually do know at this point is that an above-expected number of players have at least killed a raid boss. We know the content is still being run daily. Why fix what isn’t broken?

It’s ridiculous that so many developer resources and overhead time went into making these three fabulous raid chapters and only 10% of the player base gets to enjoy them. It’s just plain wasteful of content

So many developer resources- again, you do not know the extent. We know the minimum which is a small 5 man dedicated team. Given Arenanet only has a couple hundred employees, a dedicated small team pulling only the needed resources from audio, graphical and gameplay departments has entertained your number of 10% of the playerbase.

…That’s not a waste, that kittening efficient.

EDIT: inb4 25% of players have completed a raid boss, but how many people run every raid once a week? Those are the only players that get true unrestricted enjoyment out of this game mode

How many people don’t reach shard cap? How many people don’t kill all the bosses in one night? How many people only want to farm Gorseval for his infusion but still feel the need later on to kill some other wings?

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

What an upset! Nearly a quarter of the populace you took your accurate sample information from have killed at least one raid boss. Man, you got me, after all I set the low bar of 5% being an acceptable number for a few dedicated raid devs.

…If anything you defeated your own argument there, a quarter of the accounts you pulled LI information from have an LI, that’s insane participation, that shows wild success. Even if you were to assume an absurd 50% deviation where that nearly 25% could fluctuate to as low as only 12%, that would dedicate themselves to raiding every week, that percentage is still much, much higher than the threshold raiding would have to work with given the dedicated staff.

Furthermore, they did say they had only around 5 members dedicated to the raid staff, whose primary purpose much like the other dedicated devs for SPvP, Balance, Living Story is fixated on that content only. There’s music development, Terrain creation, Art and Design teams that get shared by all teams involved, and that’s how content is made! Those other teams that come in require a direction from the dedicated teams, or else we would have some rather odd music choices in content. Last time I checked, I doubt it would be a good idea letting the Music development put in ill-fitted music in some areas.

If you want to play a number games… well, feel free to visit https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.legendaryInsights and see by yourself. How much a “dedicated raider” is raiding, more than 3 months? Because people with 9*4*3 LI is already less than 4.5%. You still think that this number will encourage dev team to stay and develop same raid model as we have now? Or maybe you will try to see it in more realistic light?

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

If you want to play a number games… well, feel free to visit https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.legendaryInsights and see by yourself.

You can’t use GW2 Efficiency at the moment to check on LI — the API to the bank is down.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

As they increase the number of raid wings and subsequently the more ‘First Boss of this wing’ encounters, the availability of LIs will grow. The devs have already stated that LIs will continue to drop from future raid bosses. The more VG, Escort, Sloth encounters there are, the easier LIs will be able to be earned.

What’s great about the graph you showed, is a metric that I was concerned with. Notice between that 24.5% and 20% is the first time ‘Everybody’ finally breaches at least 1 LI. Eventually at 17.5% 3 is the average, with a rapid ascension from there.

A lot of the numbers are being driven down by players with 1000 hr or less, a lot of different groups fall into this range. Players who might not have a lot of time to play everyday but they do for maybe an hour, new players, maybe players who only play for about 5 hours one day a week. These are the players who are having the hardest time getting into raids from the metrics, only around 9% will you see the first LI spotted in the 500-1000 range.

1000 hours isn’t a lot of time frankly, there’s just so much to do in the game, I believe you can agree with me that for an MMO, hitting 1000 hours is finally getting into the swing of things. Should we expect these kinds of players to go straight into raiding as well? I don’t see why they couldn’t but I just don’t expect it to happen.

So from that perspective, I started looking for the first time someone between 1000-2000 hours will get their LI, the player that has played enough of the content and likely wants to raid. That kicks in around 22%, which is less than the average percentile but pretty kitten close.

…You pointed out that the pure dedicated raiders who are clearing the full wings every week for the past 3 months is less than 4.5%, that number is in between 4% and 3.5%. That’s neat, I was concerned with what the average experienced player might start seeing LIs in their account if they’ve played long enough for. Seeing the first LI in an account between 1000 and 2000 hours, at 22% is pretty kitten good for the casual crowd.

Edit: API might be down, but it holds a shot at that time. We could compare the newer statistic if you want but I don’t expect much deviance.

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

Remember, that an average players, especially average casual players, don’t generally use the sites like gw2eff, which brings the percentage of the “raiders” way up compared to the reality.
It’s the LotRO forum >50% → ingame <10% raid population case again.

Actions, not words.
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Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

Remember, that an average players, especially average casual players, don’t generally use the sites like gw2eff, which brings the percentage of the “raiders” way up compared to the reality.
It’s the LotRO forum >50% -> ingame <10% raid population case again.

Either you use GW2efficiency as a representative sample of the playerbase if it has enough of a sample size, or you don’t bring it up at all.

It can’t argue both ways here. I am responding to Red simply because Red’s insistent that it is representative as part of his argument. So I was going with the ‘statistics’ he presented to argue my case.

Edit: I still believe that at least 5% of the playerbase is at least of a group that is consistently raiding, getting more proficient, or actually trying to learn and getting some success. That may be a low number for some here, but Raids are still a very small part of the game here. I don’t see a need to improve this percentage, dropping the production and quality of new raid content to appease more folks, we have massive amounts of other content that can be produced that don’t interfere with raiding.

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

(edited by Sykper.6583)

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

Either you use GW2efficiency as a representative sample of the playerbase if it has enough of a sample size, or you don’t bring it up at all.

I don’t bring it up. While its sample size is generally big enough, it’s still useless as a representative sample in this case, because it is way too heavily biased.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

Agreed, I didn’t specifically mean you, I was being more general on any argument speaking on this representation.

We haven’t had a solid representative poll, Reddit is likely closer than GW2 efficiency but I believe all of us understand that a considerable amount of players don’t even go on the web for the games they play.

If more players actually went online and invested a bit more time on reddit even, we wouldn’t have had so many issues about ‘difficulty’ that we have now. People still aren’t aware of the Salvage All option…

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Do you want the easy mode to experience the story?
Do you want the easy mode to train for the normal mode?
Do you want the easy mode to access legendary armor achievements?
Do you want the easy mode to get access to all Raid rewards but at a reduced pace?

Obviously one that will keep raids from dropping from development board by increasing their auditory – a training one. Everything ascended and legendary quest items could be removed from loot table, except maybe shards (or they can even make last wing boss still drop one LI, to motivate experienced guys actually do this mode too).

It’s really funny that you say obviously you probably never followed any of the “raid rewards” and “easy mode for raids” threads.

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

Obviously one that will keep raids from dropping from development board by increasing their auditory – a training one. Everything ascended and legendary quest items could be removed from loot table, except maybe shards (or they can even make last wing boss still drop one LI, to motivate experienced guys actually do this mode too).

We have multiple cases of developers or VIPs on the forums stating that the raids punched above their weight, including “more players raided than we expected” and “raids are helping player retention” and “raids are wildly successful”. The resources that were spent on the initial release seem to have paid off.

With this in mind, why would you draw the conclusion that an increased audience is necessary for the mode to carry its weight?

Nalhadia – Kaineng

Making tiers in Raids like fractals?

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

We have multiple cases of developers or VIPs on the forums stating that the raids punched above their weight, including “more players raided than we expected” and “raids are helping player retention” and “raids are wildly successful”. The resources that were spent on the initial release seem to have paid off.

With this in mind, why would you draw the conclusion that an increased audience is necessary for the mode to carry its weight?

Except that monetary statistics says otherwise. Raids ofc turned out to be great quality content by themselves, and 5-3% of constant raiders is probably more then they are expected, but for general game population that focusing on raids turned out to be disastrous. And by complete absence of repeatable content outside of raids we can say pretty clear that anet devs are unable to keep pace on all directions. So as I said before, it will either turn out as dropping raids like they did with fractals after first year and focus on releasing more casual content, or they will make future raid content way more diverse and fit for casual audience to jump right into.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

And by complete absence of repeatable content outside of raids we can say pretty clear that anet devs are unable to keep pace on all directions.

Bloodstone Fen and Ember Bay are not repeatable content outside of Raids?

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Posted by: Hypairion.9210

Hypairion.9210

We have multiple cases of developers or VIPs on the forums stating that the raids punched above their weight, including “more players raided than we expected” and “raids are helping player retention” and “raids are wildly successful”. The resources that were spent on the initial release seem to have paid off.

With this in mind, why would you draw the conclusion that an increased audience is necessary for the mode to carry its weight?

Except that monetary statistics says otherwise. Raids ofc turned out to be great quality content by themselves, and 5-3% of constant raiders is probably more then they are expected, but for general game population that focusing on raids turned out to be disastrous. And by complete absence of repeatable content outside of raids we can say pretty clear that anet devs are unable to keep pace on all directions. So as I said before, it will either turn out as dropping raids like they did with fractals after first year and focus on releasing more casual content, or they will make future raid content way more diverse and fit for casual audience to jump right into.

why are you saying raids are disastrous for general population? actually, all i see are the same people ranting about them on general forum, but no where else i see a negative impact on the game (no rant in map chat etc…). so i guess you’re just projeting your own opinion for all the general people that don’t play raid. I will do like you, and for my point of view, raids are great, and i know a lot of people who would have stopped playing without raids, so raids are good for the game population.

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

Except that monetary statistics says otherwise. Raids ofc turned out to be great quality content by themselves, and 5-3% of constant raiders is probably more then they are expected, but for general game population that focusing on raids turned out to be disastrous.

Focusing on raids ‘turned out to be disastrous’
And the solution…
Is to make more raid content.

I’m not a scientist but you may need to go back to the drawing board. Just a thought.

Nalhadia – Kaineng

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

why are you saying raids are disastrous for general population? actually, all i see are the same people ranting about them on general forum, but no where else i see a negative impact on the game (no rant in map chat etc…). so i guess you’re just projeting your own opinion for all the general people that don’t play raid. I will do like you, and for my point of view, raids are great, and i know a lot of people who would have stopped playing without raids, so raids are good for the game population.

How about reading posts that you quoting before writing an answer? Or maybe you are be so kind and show me where I said that raids are disaster instead of their implementation?
Negative impact was for game population. People are just leaving because no content to play, because Anet made raids, but never bothered to make anything to help majority of players start doing them. And without proper repeatable and rewarding content to do – population dying. This is not opinion, this is a rule for any MMO. Raids are rewarding but too hard for starter without experience and pug community is making things a lot worse. At the same time, dungeons are literally dead and abandoned (woo, lets nerf rewards, surely this will do good for everyone), fractals was in nearly abandoned state (woo, golden weapons and backpack. What is new fractals?) and living story was postponed again and again (Biweekly updates? Quarterly updates? Hello?). And don’t even start on new maps, outside of some starting quests they are grind and nothing more.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

living story was postponed again and again

And what do Raids have to do with this? IF anything remaking how the entire content of HoT works because some people didn’t like the difficulty and/or how metas work was the major reason for not having new Living World releases. Re-making every single map of the expansion and fixing the bugs that came with the release of HoT is why we didn’t get more living story sooner. The Raids were already mostly done when HoT released, only needed playtesting from certain chosen guilds and/or QA from the devs. Probably Colin leaving and restructuring the company had also a major impact on the release schedule. But yes blame Raids for it and only Raids because that’s what makes you feel special despite being completely wrong.

And don’t even start on new maps, outside of some starting quests they are grind and nothing more.

Which is exactly what we got from every single release since the release of the game with the exception of Lost Shores (first Fractal introduction), Aetherblade path in TA, Fractured (more Fractals) and the release of Chaos Fractal. I guess Raids are to blame for that too even though they didn’t even have a Raid team at that time. Every other release was similar in nature as EB/BsF, which means open world content, nothing more. Which game were you playing all this time?

(edited by maddoctor.2738)

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Posted by: Hypairion.9210

Hypairion.9210

why are you saying raids are disastrous for general population? actually, all i see are the same people ranting about them on general forum, but no where else i see a negative impact on the game (no rant in map chat etc…). so i guess you’re just projeting your own opinion for all the general people that don’t play raid. I will do like you, and for my point of view, raids are great, and i know a lot of people who would have stopped playing without raids, so raids are good for the game population.

How about reading posts that you quoting before writing an answer? Or maybe you are be so kind and show me where I said that raids are disaster instead of their implementation?
Negative impact was for game population. People are just leaving because no content to play, because Anet made raids, but never bothered to make anything to help majority of players start doing them. And without proper repeatable and rewarding content to do – population dying. This is not opinion, this is a rule for any MMO. Raids are rewarding but too hard for starter without experience and pug community is making things a lot worse. At the same time, dungeons are literally dead and abandoned (woo, lets nerf rewards, surely this will do good for everyone), fractals was in nearly abandoned state (woo, golden weapons and backpack. What is new fractals?) and living story was postponed again and again (Biweekly updates? Quarterly updates? Hello?). And don’t even start on new maps, outside of some starting quests they are grind and nothing more.

In all your posts you criticize raids and how they are implemented…i still don’t see where is the failure, apart from a very vocal minority here on the forums. I’ve yet to witness it in game.
You’re blaming raids for all that you think is bad in this game, maybe you ‘re over reacting. for many people, including devs, raids are a success. And Yes, I don’t have numbers, but so do you…

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

Except that monetary statistics says otherwise. Raids ofc turned out to be great quality content by themselves, and 5-3% of constant raiders is probably more then they are expected, but for general game population that focusing on raids turned out to be disastrous.

Focusing on raids ‘turned out to be disastrous’
And the solution…
Is to make more raid content.

I’m not a scientist but you may need to go back to the drawing board. Just a thought.

First, they didn’t “focus on raids” — Raids use a small team of devs.

Second: it did not turn out disastrous. It exceeded everyone’s expectations. It’s designed to appeal to a niche crowd and it’s played by more than the target audience.

Third: they aren’t making “more” raid content, or at least, not a significantly more than they had originally intended. They had a plan for raids and they’ve implemented it.

The only metric we have about issues relates to the entire expansion, which is far, far more than just Raids. And lots of things that people criticized about HoT have been addressed: the slow rollout of other PvE content, the intense gating in HoT maps, the inaccessibility of vendors, the release of new legendary skins. In other words, lower HoT sales can be easily explained without mentioning Raids at all. If anything, there’s evidence that Raids brought in new players.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

First, they didn’t “focus on raids” — Raids use a small team of devs.

Second: it did not turn out disastrous. It exceeded everyone’s expectations. It’s designed to appeal to a niche crowd and it’s played by more than the target audience.

Third: they aren’t making “more” raid content, or at least, not a significantly more than they had originally intended. They had a plan for raids and they’ve implemented it.

The only metric we have about issues relates to the entire expansion, which is far, far more than just Raids. And lots of things that people criticized about HoT have been addressed: the slow rollout of other PvE content, the intense gating in HoT maps, the inaccessibility of vendors, the release of new legendary skins. In other words, lower HoT sales can be easily explained without mentioning Raids at all. If anything, there’s evidence that Raids brought in new players.

I know all these things. I’m just trying to point out the flaw in the logic. If raids are bad, how the hell can adding more raids fix that?

Nalhadia – Kaineng

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

I know all these things. I’m just trying to point out the flaw in the logic. If raids are bad, how the hell can adding more raids fix that?

Adding more raids cannot. Opening them up to a wider community can.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

I know all these things. I’m just trying to point out the flaw in the logic. If raids are bad, how the hell can adding more raids fix that?

Adding more raids cannot. Opening them up to a wider community can.

The above implying that raids are bad right now. Reality is currently showing the opposite.

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

The above implying that raids are bad right now. Reality is currently showing the opposite.

Like who? Can I have a citation?
Raids are good. Raids being narrow-targeted and at the same time only new repeatable content released – bad. Current state caused all-time low game population, and it must be changed, one way or another.
Anything else?

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Posted by: Miellyn.6847

Miellyn.6847

The above implying that raids are bad right now. Reality is currently showing the opposite.

Like who? Can I have a citation?
Raids are good. Raids being narrow-targeted and at the same time only new repeatable content released – bad. Current state caused all-time low game population, and it must be changed, one way or another.
Anything else?

Where is the proof that raids caused it? Where is the proof that easy mode raids will fix it?
Unless you have any of this you will just waste a huge amout of ressources, slow down the content production and make the problem worse.

Easy mode raids with reduced rewards are no new content and no repeatable content, just look at dungeon story modes.

Or at WoW, the radiant example of multiple difficulties, and their annual content drought despite a bigger team and subscription money.

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(edited by Miellyn.6847)

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

Where is the proof that raids caused it? Where is the proof that easy mode raids will fix it?
Unless you have any of this you will just waste a huge amout of ressources, slow down the content production and make the problem worse.

Easy mode raids with reduced rewards are no new content and no repeatable content, just look at dungeon story modes.

Or at WoW, the radiant example of multiple difficulties, and their annual content drought despite a bigger team and subscription money.

Proof, like people leaving the game is not enough proof for you? Everything is allright? And again, where I said that raids caused it?
Again, problem is not in existence of raids, problem is uneven content distribution. Raids in current implementation are too hard to jump in, and other new repeatable content is almost non-existent, which is obviously shows that Anet is unable to pump out content for everyone. And solution is either start developing en masse repeatable content for majority, by sacrificing raid development, or change raid development paradigm to cater both hardcore and casual crowd, like fractals did before.
People can repeat their “but raid team is so small” mantra, but reality is – when this “small” team developing new content, others are not getting anything.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

People can repeat their “but raid team is so small” mantra, but reality is – when this “small” team developing new content, others are not getting anything.

Are you still ignoring BSF and EB, the new maps released with 2 episodes of living world content? Aren’t those repeatable enough for you?

Scroll up: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Making-tiers-in-Raids-like-fractals/page/4#post6383289

You didn’t respond. You are only repeating the same thing over and over although you’ve already proven wrong multiple times.

(edited by maddoctor.2738)

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

The above implying that raids are bad right now. Reality is currently showing the opposite.

Like who? Can I have a citation?
Raids are good. Raids being narrow-targeted and at the same time only new repeatable content released – bad. Current state caused all-time low game population, and it must be changed, one way or another.
Anything else?

Will get you the dev post about ‘better than anticipated’ numbers at some point today, I haven’t enough time this morning to do so.

As someone posted already, Bloodstone Fen and Ember Bay must have missed your radar or you really don’t care. Where are your sources for ‘all-time’ low game population? Can you link it to raids? Can you back up any of the claims you have made thus far without, irrelevantly, attempting to compare Raids to WoW which falls flat each and every single time?

Or are you going to waste all our time yet again? At the very least I will obligate you and find the dev post which is perhaps the only clear picture of raid performance anyone has ever posted on the forums. But I am going to assert you will shoot down official statements, and post some irrelevant or inconclusive statistics all over again.

Please, go ahead.

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

Are you still ignoring BSF and EB, the new maps released with 2 episodes of living world content? Aren’t those repeatable enough for you?

Emm, no? These maps have literally zero replayability value, after initial story there is only few zerg farm events and nothing more. Farm for tiny fraction of rewards that was already introduced in raids.

Will get you the dev post about ‘better than anticipated’ numbers at some point today, I haven’t enough time this morning to do so.

Get yourself a minute to check NCSoft earnings releases, gw2eff LI owners percentages and curious reddit activity statistics.
http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/earnings.aspx
https://gw2efficiency.com/account/statistics/statistics.legendaryInsights
https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/53dyfn/rguildwars2_post_statistics_and_graph/

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Posted by: Absurdo.8309

Absurdo.8309

@Rednik

You blame raids, but the devs said it performed above their expectations.

You have zero evidence to support your claims. You could easily blame HOT maps, lack of legendaries, the wvw map,the pvp season, fractals, living story,

… or whatever else, when you have no evidence.

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

Are you still ignoring BSF and EB, the new maps released with 2 episodes of living world content? Aren’t those repeatable enough for you?

Emm, no? These maps have literally zero replayability value, after initial story there is only few zerg farm events and nothing more. Farm for tiny fraction of rewards that was already introduced in raids.

Which is exactly how all other zones worked in the past, Dry Top, Silverwastes, Southsun Cove. How are they any different? I think you should put the blame elsewhere and not on Raids. If you never liked the game to begin with what are you doing here?

A couple of things:
A) The sales being lower than expected was mostly because of how the maps were designed. There was a huge outcry against the meta-focus of the maps. And they spend a very long time fixing that and making the maps more casual-friendly, while neglecting the Living World in the process. Nothing in the sales that can be tied to Raids

B) I see this about gw2efficiency a lot.
Do note that accounts are being created, yet they are not crawled at the moment. Which means although player population is increasing, their stats are not updating, so if a regular raider with 200 Li joined gw2efficiency yesterday he won’t be counted. Until Anet fix their bank API the data from gw2efficiency are inaccurate.

C) I don’t get what are getting at from the reddit usage graph.

(edited by maddoctor.2738)

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

@Rednik

You blame raids, but the devs said it performed above their expectations.

You have zero evidence to support your claims. You could easily blame HOT maps, lack of legendaries, the wvw map,the pvp season, fractals, living story,

… or whatever else, when you have no evidence.

- We have population problems, because, despite raids being good, we have implementation problems, as…
- YOU SAYING THAT RAIDS ARE BAD
- Where? I said that they are good, but here is list of problems…
- YOU SAYING THAT RAIDS ARE BAD
- Can you give me a citation please? Here is all arguments again…
- YOU SAYING THAT RAIDS ARE BAD
- …

Seriously, I can’t discuss anything with people who refusing to read. Do some, and then return back.

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Posted by: Absurdo.8309

Absurdo.8309

@Rednik

You blame raids, but the devs said it performed above their expectations.

You have zero evidence to support your claims. You could easily blame HOT maps, lack of legendaries, the wvw map,the pvp season, fractals, living story,

… or whatever else, when you have no evidence.

- We have population problems, because, despite raids being good, we have implementation problems, as…
- YOU SAYING THAT RAIDS ARE BAD
- Where? I said that they are good, but here is list of problems…
- YOU SAYING THAT RAIDS ARE BAD
- Can you give me a citation please? Here is all arguments again…
- YOU SAYING THAT RAIDS ARE BAD
- …

Seriously, I can’t discuss anything with people who refusing to read. Do some, and then return back.

I hate these types of responses, because I have read your posts. (And this post is nonsensical — I think you’re trying to say that raids are good but implemented poorly).

Look, everyone is disputing your contention that raids are responsible for lower revenue numbers. You have zero evidence for this contention. (And, as I said, you could equally blame any other HOT content with your logic).

And, with posts like these, can you blame people for responding?

But ok, let’s have a straight look: Where are the 4 month intervals in presenting us new fractals?

Answer is very simple actually. They listened to loud minority and made their stake on raids. And failed hard.

Raids are not failure by themselves. Way they was implemented is, which is turned into all-time low mark for a game. And it was so hard that they even were forced to drop second raid. Remember all their brave reddit posts about how raids are great and how they happy to make more and able to? And then suddenly monetary statistics from NCsoft is released and its all gone. Then we suddenly getting a LS3 (which was postponed again and again before), instant new fractal which looks suspiciously ragtag composition from existing ones, and after all bright raid announcements – only single wing, to finish legendary collection.
Call it a tinfoil hattery, but I predict some news in future. Like either changed raid development paradigm, with different modes, or even raids going same road as fractals after first year – forgotten for years with only cosmetic changes. Personally I prefer the former, because I don’t want to see raids to be dropped and forgotten only because their auditory is narrow and development resources are finite.

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Posted by: Absurdo.8309

Absurdo.8309

Also, here are the comments most posters are referencing: (from dev ama)

Raiding, generally speaking, is a game type that appeals to a small subset of people. I think Guild Wars 2 is at its best when it appeals to large crowds, the majority of players. Why is so much effort being put in to raids?

While it seems like there is a lot of effort going into raids, the teams are actually a lot smaller than something like a Living World release. For example, with Salvation Pass, we had only about 5-6 people working on it full time for 4 months. A few others assisted with their time for a week here, or a month there, plus additional people helped when it came time for reviews. And many of those full time people work on 2 raid releases simultaneously (Bobby worked on the scripts at the same time for both releases).

Semi-related/followup: I assume you’ve got data about what percentage of active players ever enter a raid or beat a raid boss. You probably can’t give us numbers, but do you have a sense of how it compares to other games? Is it lower or higher than you want it to be?

Raid in MMOs are high-end content designed for the more hardcore player. However, from an analytics standpoint, the participation is higher than other games we’ve seen. This is likely due to the nature of our progression system in GW2.

http://dulfy.net/2016/03/05/gw2-developer-ama-on-reddit/#Raids

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

Thank you Absurdo for finding the quote.

It’s far more relevant and specific than just tinfoil ‘evidence’ with the faintest references to raiding and more strongly points to other issues.

Raiding as of right now is by far the most successful part of the expansion, the Music is probably the only other thing I can think of that has been a resounding success. The map alterations, HPs, Legendary Weapons, Story, all other things that have been changed or improved upon…they are more culpable in why HoT had issues.

Dismissing those issues and stating that Raiding is the sole cause is being insincere and foolish.

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

Notice how in that quote they didn’t say that the Raid participation was good.

Raiding as of right now is by far the most successful part of the expansion

Not that it would be a high threshold to beat, but still, do you have any proof on that?

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

(edited by Astralporing.1957)

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

Notice how in that quote they didn’t say that the Raid participation was good.

Raiding as of right now is by far the most successful part of the expansion

Not that it would be a high threshold to beat, but still, do you have any proof on that?

Process of elimination really.

Can you tell me of another piece of content aside from the Music that needed to be improved or adjusted upon after launch?

Just as an example, Elite Specializations right now are still kind of a mess. They interfere with balance and are caused a bit of power creep. Arenanet needs to introduce another Elite Specialization which can create diversity, as you can’t choose both specs.

Edit: I don’t mean Music was ‘edited’, the Music has kept the same and has been well-received.

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

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Posted by: Rednik.3809

Rednik.3809

Thank you Absurdo for finding the quote.

It’s far more relevant and specific than just tinfoil ‘evidence’ with the faintest references to raiding and more strongly points to other issues.

Raiding as of right now is by far the most successful part of the expansion, the Music is probably the only other thing I can think of that has been a resounding success. The map alterations, HPs, Legendary Weapons, Story, all other things that have been changed or improved upon…they are more culpable in why HoT had issues.

Dismissing those issues and stating that Raiding is the sole cause is being insincere and foolish.

They gave people raids and don’t gave anyone anything else except some grindy maps. People want to play the game and they see…
1. Old fractals. For almost four years. With ONE new one, being a ragtag mix of old ones.
2. Old dungeons. With nerfed rewards just because.
3. Old pvp. Oh, no, actually less than old, because they removed soloQ, paid tournaments and almost whole hotjoin system. But hey, you can grind play seasons for a backpack.
4. Slightly updated WvW. Hey, 2 new maps over four years!
5. Open world maps. You can grind zerg events over and over again, yay!
6. Raids, great and shiny, with more exclusive items than pvp and wvw together. Oh, raids are slightly hard for you because small community and hard to start doing them without experience? Too bad, go to something previous.
So, only real new things to play are raids and open world grind maps. Both have serious problems if you don’t have a particular mindset, and judging by financial result, majority of players lack it.
And they are staying there, watching at “successful raids” and “new maps are here, why you are not happy” and all asking one question – “Where is my content, dude?”

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(edited by Rednik.3809)