Guild Wars 2

As the title suggest i find it hard to understand why isnt minstrel mesmer the goto choice ?Since it makes dying non relevant the perma healing it provides with the illusion’s regen is kinda neat the 2k> toughness means if you have necros they can go nuts with the minions and you ge the added boon duration from it as well.

I understand that youu give up alot (for the mesmer) dmg but not only you become self sufficient but you provide your group with more survivability through the regen while you can freelly take some hits and be able to recover on your own pretty fast relieving your healer from the stress of healing you. Yes i understand your dmg will be helltrash but lets face it the mesmer dmg in raids is trash anyways, one could argue that if their guild is doing record runs or low mans such as gorse where the dps checks are more harsh there the added dmg is more usefull but if you are not in that % of the raiding player base i dont find a reason not to run minstrels chrono (f you want to see big numbers mesmer is not the class anyways).Also on other low mans such as vg or mattias where the time limit is more forgiving you could use this build as well :/ ,your thoughts?

While the principle works out for it, not many people like it.
Many people will call it dumb, and depending on the set up it is dumb.
As it is there are groups that find trying to do the mesmer rotation and tanking hard.
That said, the gaps for dps work out something like:
Berserker/Assassin: ~12k
Commanders: ~9k
Minstrels: ~4k
I will say if your group can suddenly bring 2 dps focused druids because of you running minstrels then sure go ahead, otherwise I generally wouldn’t outside of crappy pug healers.
As for the toughness and necromancers, commanders is more than enough toughness for them to not have to care, unless they for some reason have some other toughness. That said most groups don’t bother much with necros outside of wing 2 where it doesn’t matter.
There are other things like the 5k/10s healing from running the matra heal if you are going that far into the whole support side of the gear but it’s pretty meek and you lose quickness, alacrity and dps to do so.

Xcorpdog.2840:

While the principle works out for it, not many people like it.
Many people will call it dumb, and depending on the set up it is dumb.
As it is there are groups that find trying to do the mesmer rotation and tanking hard.
That said, the gaps for dps work out something like:
Berserker/Assassin: ~12k
Commanders: ~9k
Minstrels: ~4k
I will say if your group can suddenly bring 2 dps focused druids because of you running minstrels then sure go ahead, otherwise I generally wouldn’t outside of crappy pug healers.
As for the toughness and necromancers, commanders is more than enough toughness for them to not have to care, unless they for some reason have some other toughness. That said most groups don’t bother much with necros outside of wing 2 where it doesn’t matter.
There are other things like the 5k/10s healing from running the matra heal if you are going that far into the whole support side of the gear but it’s pretty meek and you lose quickness, alacrity and dps to do so.

i think you underestimate the healing this build might do i mean why even have 2 off healer druids when 1 off healer and this build is enough to keep the party healthy? doing quickness while tanking isnt that hard (excluding xera coz i haventkilled her) you can deal with the attacks and dish out the quickness needed for you group while you also afk healing them so your druid can go off healer and bring more dps in your group

You have 2 druids so the whole party gets its buffs and I never want to see any drood other than zerk or condi in my team so yeah, noty, we have enough heals and there is no need to have 2k tougness, I easily do every raid boss w/ 1250 toughness

Plazar.8946:

You have 2 druids so the whole party gets its buffs and I never want to see any drood other than zerk or condi in my team so yeah, noty, we have enough heals and there is no need to have 2k tougness, I easily do every raid boss w/ 1250 toughness

depends on the encounter not all the bosses run 2 off druids and tbh condo off druid is just weak at both fronts

why not just go minstrel druid tank and utility/dps Mesmer? Then each kinda does what it was meant to do. But just out of curiosity, what runes/sigils would you have on mez now?

icy`

icy.9250:

why not just go minstrel druid tank and utility/dps Mesmer? Then each kinda does what it was meant to do. But just out of curiosity, what runes/sigils would you have on mez now?

icy`

its harder to do all these as a drid tank healer since the healig druids do isnt as passive as the mesmer one and power/druid does more dms than power /utility mesmer
so by sacrificing 5k dps you can all remove the secont off druid and add some condi class or power class depending on the encouner while the off power druid deals more dmg than you and has the burst for tricky spots

As Chronomancer you have 3 Blocks, 2 Dodges, 1 Evade on sword, 1 Distortion (up to 3 if Blurred Inscriptions).
I am not sure why you would need even more Defensive Options.

is it not to make you the mesmer feel more safe is to make you even more self sufficient and lift off some stress from your healer since alot of healing to the group will be happening thnx to the mesmer and he can focus on his own dps

There is certainly something to be said for minstrels, mainly that it can help out someone who isn’t used to chronotank. Being able to tank a few hits is very nice when you don’t hit all your blocks/evades. However a skilled chrono can self sustain without any healing power or assistance from the druid.

Also, although the dps of mesmer isn’t good, it is not insignificant. Every experienced raider has had a time where they got the boss to 1% health and wiped. Even on VG where the dps check isn’t very difficult, you could end up as the last one standing and need that extra 5k dps to finish the boss off.

In the end, I’d say to think of minstrels as training wheels. You can use it at first, but you want to work on being able to sustain without it if you want to be part of a higher level group.

GLHF

zealex.9410:

icy.9250:

why not just go minstrel druid tank and utility/dps Mesmer? Then each kinda does what it was meant to do. But just out of curiosity, what runes/sigils would you have on mez now?

icy`

its harder to do all these as a drid tank healer since the healig druids do isnt as passive as the mesmer one and power/druid does more dms than power /utility mesmer
so by sacrificing 5k dps you can all remove the secont off druid and add some condi class or power class depending on the encouner while the off power druid deals more dmg than you and has the burst for tricky spots

It’s probably harder to play druid perfectly while tanking but it’s also a lot less important to not make mistakes on a druid compared to a chronomancer. Unless your squad is kittening up bad if you get your heals interrupted or something you’re not losing much more than scholar uptime. Chrono might be comparatively easier but a mistake on chrono is a much larger DPS hit. Even ignoring mistakes in the quickness combo which are obviously horrible, there is stuff like activating illusionary inspiration at the wrong time or having to use distortion requiring you to resummon phantasms before using continuum split (which again might force a bad illusionary inspiration proc in addition to wasting time). Tanking with chrono can also make it more likely to miss some of your squad with wells since commonly the tank stand on the opposite side of the boss. There are other issues with chrono tank on specific fights especially in wing 3, but even speaking generally the penalty for messing up on chronomancer is a lot higher so saying “it’s harder” isn’t a particularly good argument for chronotank instead of a druid.

The only fight where druid tank is not best is VG, though there are scenarios with 2 druids where having one tanking VG works fine.

Regarding the OP, minstrels chrono isn’t horrible for helping someone learn how to play chrono since the DPS is bad anyway. But considering the steep cost of getting minstrels gear and the fact that minstrels forces you to always be the tank it seems overall just worse than having assassins armor and using exotic trinkets with platinum doubloons / ascended commander’s trinkets to manipulate your toughness.

Plazar.8946:

I never want to see any drood other than zerk or condi in my team

Really? Not even Zealot?

I guess you were answering me.

zealex.9410:

and lift off some stress from your healer

Seems like you missunderstood me. With all thoose defensive Options i listed, there is no preassure on the healer to heal you.

Plazar.8946:

You have 2 druids so the whole party gets its buffs and I never want to see any drood other than zerk or condi in my team so yeah, noty, we have enough heals and there is no need to have 2k tougness, I easily do every raid boss w/ 1250 toughness

I just want to point out to anyone who is reading this for advice, and doesn’t know, a ps war gains 400 toughness when rezzing someone (minor trait). So a pure glass ps war has 1400 toughness when rezzing and 1000 toughness baseline.

So, if a tank is going to go sub 1400 toughness, the ps wars need to know not to rez anyone. Of course, ideally no one goes down. But people reading this forum page for advice should consider what their typical teams look like. Because a tank lossing agro can be the difference between a recovery and a wipe.

a necro can also easily surpass 1200 toughness with enough minions too

zealex.9410:

As the title suggest i find it hard to understand why isnt minstrel mesmer the goto choice ?Since it makes dying non relevant the perma healing it provides with the illusion’s regen is kinda neat the 2k> toughness means if you have necros they can go nuts with the minions and you ge the added boon duration from it as well.

I understand that youu give up alot (for the mesmer) dmg but not only you become self sufficient but you provide your group with more survivability through the regen while you can freelly take some hits and be able to recover on your own pretty fast relieving your healer from the stress of healing you. Yes i understand your dmg will be helltrash but lets face it the mesmer dmg in raids is trash anyways, one could argue that if their guild is doing record runs or low mans such as gorse where the dps checks are more harsh there the added dmg is more usefull but if you are not in that % of the raiding player base i dont find a reason not to run minstrels chrono (f you want to see big numbers mesmer is not the class anyways).Also on other low mans such as vg or mattias where the time limit is more forgiving you could use this build as well :/ ,your thoughts?

Few thing you need to consider:

1 You lose half your dps, necros and thief give up less and can tank easy as well.

2 You still have the quickness issues and hick ups.

3 ele and druid and full heal mesmers are better healing tanks.

In most cases full minstrel mesmers is not in the groups best interest. It is however in the mesmers best interest if you are learning or want to semi afk tank. For the latter grab clerics/magis/nomads and its also in your wallets best interest.

I have a clerics/nomads set that I rarely use, only if the healers can’t keep the group up and I have to tank I switch to it. However I agree with Dino that chrono tank for pugs is overrated because they loser so much dmg/Quickness when tanking.

I would have to agree with those saying that Minstrel’s could be used as training wheels. Though, the loss of damage overtime does add up, and for those still going through their progression you could easily have been the extra1-2% HP that was needed to finish off the boss when the team wiped (which happens quite commonly).

The regen from a Chrono if fully decked out in Minstrel’s (Minstrel’s Nomad if you want to reflect Comm/zerk) comes out to 273/tick (327 when using nourishment/crystals). Even from a fully Viper or Berserker you’re getting about 156-190 hp/tick simply because they have built in healing modifiers + nourishment.

Ultimately though if you’re thinking a Minstrel Chrono tank can “relieve” a Druid to take a more DPS class, that could actually turn out to be backwards as the team offensive buffs to damage granted by a Druid could outweigh the better DPS from a single player.

Not saying that the gear set is a terrible idea I just think it shouldn’t be used as a long term solution. There are better ways of achieving more "tankiness "especially with Chrono’s that have an extraordinary amount of ways to mitigate damage and his Rev buddy that can offer perma Protection. Minstrel’s would just offer more of a cushion for those players who aren’t as great using active defenses and needed to rely on passive defenses like toughness.

Every boss benefits from 4/4/2 regardless of if pubs run that in all cases or not. You can of course get by and beat bosses with 7/2/1 or whatever, as every boss has very generous enrage timers and hard enrage mechanics. The same can be said for a Minstrel’s Chronomancer versus a Berserker one with 400 toughness. The difference is about a 10k damage adjustment, which if you can make up elsewhere doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. You can even ignore it in most comps and kill the boss with plenty of time to spare anyway.

Obviously, though, Minstrel’s is not objectively “better” than Commander’s or Berserker’s, it’s just safer for people who can’t otherwise handle the incoming damage or want to reduce risk. It’s like on the one hand, most guild groups can get away with Berserker or Viper’s Druids, and yet I run a Magi’s Druid because it enables me to compensate for if my team gets a bit lazy or makes a mistake or, especially for pubs, if I’m really carrying a couple weaker links. I’d rather win in one-two pulls at a little bit slower of a pace than wipe ten times trying to be overly DPS-crazy.

Ultimately, YMMV.

Honestly most people who aren’t getting kills, dps is not the issue. It’s the mechanics.

Even with an enrage timer you can still kill the boss. 1-2% hp and then going enrage is not a big deal as you can still finish it off. Focus on not wiping first. For training runs, minstrels might be better for your group, as it relives a lot of pressure off your healer, allows you to take more dps in squad, and gives you a cushion for when you kitten up.

Ignore what the people who are saying “its bad” are going on about. As long as you got the kill, it does not matter unless you are doing a speed run.

I think it’s fine honestly. We’re talking about a minuscule amount of dps loss for consistency. We’re already seeing fractal groups run suboptimal team comps (reaper only), not surprising raids would open up to the idea a little. Obviously you’re not going to take the build into a speed run, but not every raid clear is a speed run. I honestly think if your raid squad fails w/e dps check, you’ve probably got bigger problems elsewhere.

Xcorpdog.2840:

While the principle works out for it, not many people like it.
Many people will call it dumb, and depending on the set up it is dumb.
As it is there are groups that find trying to do the mesmer rotation and tanking hard.
That said, the gaps for dps work out something like:
Berserker/Assassin: ~12k
Commanders: ~9k
Minstrels: ~4k
I will say if your group can suddenly bring 2 dps focused druids because of you running minstrels then sure go ahead, otherwise I generally wouldn’t outside of crappy pug healers.
As for the toughness and necromancers, commanders is more than enough toughness for them to not have to care, unless they for some reason have some other toughness. That said most groups don’t bother much with necros outside of wing 2 where it doesn’t matter.
There are other things like the 5k/10s healing from running the matra heal if you are going that far into the whole support side of the gear but it’s pretty meek and you lose quickness, alacrity and dps to do so.

These numbers are incredibly impractical and somewhat deceptive, given that they are 100% unrealistic and won’t be actually achieved. Don’t make chronos think they’re doing 12k, please.

I’ve seen groups do 40k DPS on Zane and an Ele claimed he was the vast majority of it. Not the case.

Regarding the ps warrior toughness issue:

I’ll run less than 1400 toughness on most bosses because a momentary aggro swap usually isn’t a huge problem. Vale guardian and Xera are the two that can easily cause a wipe if aggro jumps, so I’ll throw on extra toughness to break 1400 on those 2.

Chronos play as what you feel more comfortable with. Whether it be minstrels or commanders. As long as you get the job done is what really matters. For me, minstrel makes more sense because a downed player or bad druid can really ruin your day.

afrocrusade.4253:

These numbers are incredibly impractical and somewhat deceptive, given that they are 100% unrealistic and won’t be actually achieved. Don’t make chronos think they’re doing 12k, please.

Actually, those numbers are pretty accurate. Stickly speaking benchmark based on the rotation from this video, the player was able to achieve close to about 11.3k DPS (Average Golem downed in about 5:52 minutes). The only buffs and boons that were used were those that would be reasonably available based on most compositions having Chrono’s paired a Herald: Assassin’s Presence, 25 stacks of might, Perma Fury, Perma Quickness (self generated). Thus, you’ll get more damage from drive-by buffs coming from other squad members that are not already capped on buff distribution (most notably EA, Banners, spotter, Spirits, and GOTL).

Assuming that the player in the video is using Commander’s/Berserker’s switching up the gear changes damage output dramatically. Based on just ratios of Power, Precision, and Ferocity full berserker’s does 29.8% more damage over the Comm/zerk while Min/Nomad (a defensive reflection of Comm/Zerk) does 55.4% less damage. Given the 11.3k DPS that means a fully zerk Chrono is capable of 14.7k DPS while Min/Nomad is capable of 5.0k DPS.

Granted all of this damage talk is just smack-a-golem benchmark under ideal conditions. How much damage will you actually get? Well, mileage will heavily vary based on the encounter due to movement, invul phases, and other mechanics that otherwise prevent you from actually attacking. Same goes for the other squad members, but benchmarks are the closest thing we can use to showcase what a class is capable of.

Edit: Back on topic though, the damage loss is quite noticeable in the long run, but by far Min/Nomad can be used for those who are new to tanking and need the extra margin for error. Though, getting the gear set can be annoying if you don’t already have access to the inscriptions/insignias.

Well the Numbers are achieved in a perfect Situation and a Bossfight is everything but a perfect Situation. Normally the DPS in pretty decent Groups are 50% less than what you would see on the Benchmarks. Killed VG with 2:50 Min left? Each Member of your Group has roughly around 9 to 12k DPS on average, which is really low compared to the Benchmark DPS.

The Benchmark shows of what your Class is capable off in a perfect Situation and while some Groups are going pretty close to the Benchmark normal Groups are losing much more than one would imagine.

Walhalla.5473:

Well the Numbers are achieved in a perfect Situation and a Bossfight is everything but a perfect Situation. Normally the DPS in pretty decent Groups are 50% less than what you would see on the Benchmarks. Killed VG with 2:50 Min left? Each Member of your Group has roughly around 9 to 12k DPS on average, which is really low compared to the Benchmark DPS.

The Benchmark shows of what your Class is capable off in a perfect Situation and while some Groups are going pretty close to the Benchmark normal Groups are losing much more than one would imagine.

Definitely. The first phase of VG is pretty close to ideal other than the awkward dodge, but once he goes into his first invuln phase the number start to plummet since you’re standing there waiting to be able to hit something again. With something like Gorsy, it’s a bit easier to see more consistent numbers outside of the invuln/break phases.

Thing is, I excluded the Invuln Phase and the Split Phase from my Calculation and just used the Time where the Guardian was attackable to calculate the DPS and tbh I was surprised that the DPS plummeted so hard but well the Mechanics can really kill off the DPS. And you are right with Gorse, its easier to keep up higher DPS. Its even easier on Sabetha since most of the Group don’t need to dodge.

And again on Topic. I always use around 1500 Toughness for Tanking just to be sure. Aggro Swap on Gorse and KC is annoying and I have seen Groups where this can lead to the Group panicking. On VG I always want to have the Aggro otherwise he doesn’t move when I’m moving, resulting to awkward Situations for the Group, otherwise known as wipes due to Green Fields being on Charged Zones, and on Xera it is really important that the Aggro never switches otherwise she’ll use her Confounding Flurry Attack while facing the Group, annihilating the Raid with it.

I think it’s the same reason why people don’t understand that Leadership runes are 1000x better than chronomancer runes. They just check and see what metabattle says.

Kusa.6438:

I think it’s the same reason why people don’t understand that Leadership runes are 1000x better than chronomancer runes. They just check and see what metabattle says.

Chronomancer runes give quickness, leadership runes useless boon duration that should already be capped. 1000x better for sure…

Kusa.6438:

I think it’s the same reason why people don’t understand that Leadership runes are 1000x better than chronomancer runes. They just check and see what metabattle says.

0.o
how?

cranos.5913:

Kusa.6438:

I think it’s the same reason why people don’t understand that Leadership runes are 1000x better than chronomancer runes. They just check and see what metabattle says.

Chronomancer runes give quickness, leadership runes useless boon duration that should already be capped. 1000x better for sure…

Yeah, which you have to trade dps gear for commander’s gear. I can get 100% boon duration in full zerker gear. You need full commander’s gear to do that with chronomancer runes. Plus if you’re a competent player… You can keep perma quickness on very easily with leadership runes.

Kusa.6438:

cranos.5913:

Kusa.6438:

I think it’s the same reason why people don’t understand that Leadership runes are 1000x better than chronomancer runes. They just check and see what metabattle says.

Chronomancer runes give quickness, leadership runes useless boon duration that should already be capped. 1000x better for sure…

Yeah, which you have to trade dps gear for commander’s gear. I can get 100% boon duration in full zerker gear. You need full commander’s gear to do that with chronomancer runes. Plus if you’re a competent player… You can keep perma quickness on very easily with leadership runes.

Sigil and food alone is 50%+ which is all you need with a rev in the group.

cranos.5913:

Kusa.6438:

cranos.5913:

Kusa.6438:

I think it’s the same reason why people don’t understand that Leadership runes are 1000x better than chronomancer runes. They just check and see what metabattle says.

Chronomancer runes give quickness, leadership runes useless boon duration that should already be capped. 1000x better for sure…

Yeah, which you have to trade dps gear for commander’s gear. I can get 100% boon duration in full zerker gear. You need full commander’s gear to do that with chronomancer runes. Plus if you’re a competent player… You can keep perma quickness on very easily with leadership runes.

Sigil and food alone is 50%+ which is all you need with a rev in the group.

That’s fine… But I tank just fine with leadership runes. I keep quickness and alacrity up just as good, if not better. Just because metabattle says it, doesn’t mean it’s the only way. I’m pretty sure metabattle list leadership as an expensive alternative.

Kusa.6438:

cranos.5913:

Kusa.6438:

cranos.5913:

Kusa.6438:

I think it’s the same reason why people don’t understand that Leadership runes are 1000x better than chronomancer runes. They just check and see what metabattle says.

Chronomancer runes give quickness, leadership runes useless boon duration that should already be capped. 1000x better for sure…

Yeah, which you have to trade dps gear for commander’s gear. I can get 100% boon duration in full zerker gear. You need full commander’s gear to do that with chronomancer runes. Plus if you’re a competent player… You can keep perma quickness on very easily with leadership runes.

Sigil and food alone is 50%+ which is all you need with a rev in the group.

That’s fine… But I tank just fine with leadership runes. I keep quickness and alacrity up just as good, if not better. Just because metabattle says it, doesn’t mean it’s the only way. I’m pretty sure metabattle list leadership as an expensive alternative.

An expensive and less effective alternative… As was already mentioned, chrono should have easy 100% boon duration with zero investment in gear. Leadership are literally worthless.

In my recent pugs i had 3 Chronos who played this build. And all 3 still died with it… I dont think there is a point of using this build.

Kusa.6438:

I think it’s the same reason why people don’t understand that Leadership runes are 1000x better than chronomancer runes. They just check and see what metabattle says.

Ok show me how you give permaquickness without chronorunes…

Kusa.6438:

I think it’s the same reason why people don’t understand that Leadership runes are 1000x better than chronomancer runes. They just check and see what metabattle says.

This is provably incorrect. Chronomancer Quickness stacks are some of the best stacks to copy given the way Quickness caps on players. Not to mention that Leadership runes give terrible stats and redundant boon duration. There’s no case where what you’re saying is true.

So, let’s break the two down.

Comm + Chrono Runes
EP: 4229
EH: 21,753

Berserker + Leadership (and 2 doubloons I assume to make +100% BD)
EP: 4819
EH: 17,667

Both Chrono Variants has access to Quickness via

Well of Action: 3s
Tides of time: 1.5s (2 applications)
Time Warp: 1s (10 applications)

Chrono Runes get you the Extra 2s per Well cast which in the current qT build has you slotting 3 wells.

So in a typical rotation you have something like
ToT -> TW -> WoR -> WoA -> WoE -> Signet

For Comm+Chorno the stacks look something like (applying +100% BD)

• 3s ToT
• 2s TW (4 applications ish)
• 4s WoE casting
• 4s WoA casting
• 4s WoE casting
• 3 ToT return
• 6s WoA application

So off of an ideal SoI cast you’re spreading:
6+4+4+4+3+3+2+2+2 = ~30s quickness minus the elapsed time on the stacks

For Zerk+Leasder the stacks look something like (applying +100% BD)

• 3s ToT
• 2s TW (4 applications ish)
• 3 ToT return
• 6s WoA application

So off of an ideal SoI cast you’re spreading:
6+3+3+2+2+2+2+2+2 = ~24s quickness minus elapsed time. Though a lot of those TW stacks fell off so you’re more likely to spread ~18s minus elapsed time on the stacks.

Though Devil’s Advocate speaking the Zerk leadership may still be comparative in stacks application due to the nature of how the cap system works. In other words your team mates are also receiving Quickness stacks from ToT, TW, and WoA application. So, in both Chrono’s cases their team mates both have:

• 3s ToT
• 2s TW (per pulse)
• 3 ToT return
• 6s WoA application

*Assuming they’re standing in the AoE of the skills applying the stacks of quickness

So when SoI is cast the TW stacks on the Chrono are gonna lose out to the higher timer stacks that are already applied to their team mate.

Super rough math aide, what does it all mean? Well, virtually both Chrono variants should be capable of providing perma quickness in a 5 man team.

Realistically, Zerk+Leadership has a lot of gotcha’s because you’re much more deprived of stacks and need to make sure both individual team members and the Chrono herself are positioned correctly. There is also less of a margin of error for bad rotations as every stack is needed especially since you don’t always have access to TW on every rotation.

Comm+Chrono has more of a margin for error and can more easily spread big stacks of quickness despite the positioning of her team members. Another plus is in 10 man teams where not everyone can receive stacks from TW and WoA applications an SoI cast can copy some of the Chrono’s own bigger stacks to those players that missed on earlier stacks.

Stirctly looking at the runes though I would still say I’d prefer Chrono runes since you can ditch the Comm gear if you have a rev on the team, and the stats you get from Chrono runes (Power+Pres) are much better than the scattered +all stats you get from Leadership runes. On top of that, if you have Leadership runes and a rev on the team you’re in a weird situation because now you have too much boon duration and trying to compensate for that isn’t very efficient (toss the conc sigil, different food, etc).