Guild Wars 2

Hi,
PUGging have become a nightmare since instance ownership was abolished. I make my own groups and I post for what I want as specifically as I can. I am convinced that people do not read or care but I feel it is the proper way to make a group. Every day, it is almost a certainty that I will have my own instances hijacked and I consider it a very good day indeed if it was just once.
At least when ownership existed, I had only been kicked out of my own instance mostly by a certain well-known individual when I sold Arah paths. There were a few times when disgruntled PUGs would do it out of spite but it was rare and a tolerable risk. Those who know me can attest to how many times I have ranted to them after being kicked out of my own instance.
I have no assurances – no means of quality control when I make my own group and no way to enforce the requirements so I can play how I wanted to. When I post for experienced and 80 and dps, I want exactly that… It does not take me long to figure out if a player fits the post. If they do not, I usually ask them to leave as cordially as possible : “If you are not experienced, or do not know what AR is, or if you are not familiar with the dps meta, this group is not for you….drop pls”
This is when I usually find myself staring at a loading screen. It does not end there, but I pay no heed to personal insults, childish remarks and even death threats. Other times when I am feeling well enough, I just do my best to make things work. Even then, trying my best to go with what I have is no guarantee. Countless times I would be kicked at the last boss even after I carried the group that far in my own instance. If I joined a PUG and they kicked me at last boss, that is certainly unpleasant but I understand. Personally, I feel that if you joined a PUG, you agree to play the way that group wants you to and your spot on that group is a granted privilege that they can revoke any time. But if I make my own group, am I not entitled to what I ask for in my post so I can play the way I want with similarly-minded folks?
I think this is a familiar story for many dungeon runners who rely on the LFG. I am told I have THE worst luck with PUG. While that is debatable, the current system have made PUGging an absolute terror. Without instance owners, there is no protection against griefing. Let’s be honest, I have no delusion that reporting works, perhaps only for a few well documented incidences. Is this the intended way I am to PUG? Constantly recording every run, documenting every group with Screenshots? Furthermore I believe that reporting these numerous incidences is detrimental to the community and the game in the long run. Who in the dungeon community would rather investigate, verify and resolve these reports when the same time and resources can go to things like revamping older content, adding new and engaging gameplay and build on the game?
And so fellow PUGgers, I just slog on…but its always a bitter affair. But slog on I shall, and each day I add to my growing project….As thanks for your time, I present you a small portion of it. A picture tells more than the thousand words above… I call it: “Langrim’s Wall of Hate” and it tells my PUG story. Enjoy.

This can’t be one sided really. I pug too on daily basis from dungeons to FOTM 30-50 and this is a result of exchanging insults and lowering yourself at their lvl. You can insult people pretty good without saying one swear. That’s mistake number one:feeding a troll. Mistake number 2 is interacting. Minimise it to “hello” and “ty bb”. Mistake number 3 is getting in “dps exp ping gear have xxk ach” lfg.
Pick your lfg like a smart person, or run with guildies. That’s my 2c.

“I hope you have good life with your fat egirlfriend”

:D

I honestly PUG ALL the time and I’ve never once been kicked from a group. I think the difference here is that I’m always starting or joining non-meta/speedrun groups; the players in these don’t care what you’re running, only that you’re level 80 and/or experienced (if it’s not a “all welcome” group). As long as you look like you know what you’re doing and aren’t annoying/aggressive, PUGs are actually willing to put up with a lot.

It does not take me long to figure out if a player fits the post. If they do not, I usually ask them to leave as cordially as possible : “If you are not experienced, or do not know what AR is, or if you are not familiar with the dps meta, this group is not for you….drop pls”

Better to just kick, and make sure to do it early, if you’re going to do it at all.

Also, if you’re not addressing that line to a specific individual, it’ll feel like you’re addressing everyone in the group. With you being the source of the now-oppressive atmosphere, this is an extremely easy way to get 3-4 people eager to second that kick on you.

Finally, the lack of things like DPS meters and the persistence of the “zerker meta” (with a focus on the “zerker” rather than “meta”) has created a community of PuGs who feel validated by gear rather than execution or more specific elements. In other words, the only time they feel they should be tested is at the LFG filter keywords. Attempting to filter past that can be seen as excessively hostile and unnecessary.

In other words, you’re getting kicked because you’re putting people in “don’t-get-myself-kicked” mode. At some point, 2 or more of the group form the conclusion that the best shot they have of finishing the run is replacing you and carrying the weak link.

When you’re seen as oppressive, you no longer get the benefit of the doubt as a rational decision maker, and people fear that you will begin to scapegoat the cumulative errors of the run on their next small slip-up.

This is also why I try not to PuG, and when I do, I’ll put up a fairly tight LFG filter but will hardly ever try to enforce it on those who join.

I know its wrong to try to victim-blaming, but really, are you sure you’re not helping creating these kind of animosity on your groups? I agree that you have the right to play with like-minded individuals who share the same interests as yours, but sometimes you may sound to your groupmates as kitten, i dont know.

I’ve pugged with some forumers that i see sometimes complaining about pugs, there was this one on a cm run that kept doing “passive-agressive” comments to the groups mates, like “hey special snowflake, stack!” “dont use wall of reflection until i use mine” “sigh…”, that just kept buiding a bad atmosphere on the group that he ended up being kicked, but he was with a friend in the group who invited him back, when he joined back i left because i was the one who seconded the kick.

So, i don’t know, sometimes if you are doing a quick run you dont need to act like an kitten to the group, if you are unhappy with their scrubness just leave or keep it to yourself until the run is over, it will only cost you 5 minutes most of the time.

Its like… if I for example when i join pugs for arah runs and in the group we have a member from a known speedrun guild, if i see the guy dying at Lupicus i will not act like “HAHAHAH noob cant stay alive on lupicus!”, i will have some respect and not try to be a try-hard kitten.

But if that’s not your case please ignore my victim-blaming post :P

Am I the only one who keep wondering what he told them to get those whispers

Casmurro.9046:

I know its wrong to try to victim-blaming, but really, are you sure you’re not helping creating these kind of animosity on your groups? I agree that you have the right to play with like-minded individuals who share the same interests as yours, but sometimes you may sound to your groupmates as kitten, i dont know.

I’ve pugged with some forumers that i see sometimes complaining about pugs, there was this one on a cm run that kept doing “passive-agressive” comments to the groups mates, like “hey special snowflake, stack!” “dont use wall of reflection until i use mine” “sigh…”, that just kept buiding a bad atmosphere on the group that he ended up being kicked, but he was with a friend in the group who invited him back, when he joined back i left because i was the one who seconded the kick.

So, i don’t know, sometimes if you are doing a quick run you dont need to act like an kitten to the group, if you are unhappy with their scrubness just leave or keep it to yourself until the run is over, it will only cost you 5 minutes most of the time.

Well said. Again, I’m not saying that the OP is doing this, but this is why we always need to be cautious about the stories people tell on the forums. It’s only one side of the story, and very often it’s distorted (sometimes accidentally, sometimes intentionally) from the reality of what actually happened. I’ve seen so many posts on the Account Issues forum where people come in swearing up and down that they were reported/banned falsely, only to get shown proof that they were sending abusive whispers to others, that they actually WERE exploiting/hacking/etc. Sometimes they’ll even provide screenshots to prove their point, and it turns out that the screenshot was photoshopped or altered to imply things that didn’t actually happen or to make it sound worse out of context.

No. Pugging was a nightmare when instance ownership existed. It is SO much better now that you don’t get thrown out of the instance when the owner rage-quits, disconnects, has to leave, etc. I’m sorry that you have to learn how to play nice with others as a result. The once or twice that I’ve been kicked from a group was because I was running my mouth, and I deserved to get kicked. It sounds like you need to reevaluate how you treat others in groups.

Sorry if its a bit unclear. On rare occasions when I join a group, I do not usually say anything beyond the formalities and occasional banter and just follow along. If they choose to kick me, that is certainly their right to do so, no complaints here.

What is distressing is that all this happens when I make my own group, and get kicked from my own instance. Often times that means time wasted since I tend to go ahead and solo while waiting. Before the ownership changes, I had a failsafe. It was my instance, people knew and they either cooperated or they left – either way, problem solved. Sometimes I do have a friend with me, but it is hard for me to convince them that its necessary to kick sometimes – they are just very uncomfortable with the whole idea.

Myself, I am close to the meta but I have always made the necessary concessions – it is a PUG after all… When I do opt to JOIN a group for some reason instead of making my own, I am careful to select and in my experience:

“speed run” = how fast can I solo?
“NO RANGERS NO NECRO” : ..yea not gonna even…go near that…love my blue ranger…
“heavy preferred/only” = guard war go facetank for me while I range at 1200 plz with my staff mes, bow ranger etc etc…
“exp zerk” = I am not zerk but you better be so you can carry me kty
“ping gear, zerk, exp AP requirement etc” : Ok, a few things can happen -
1. we are all elite ‘zerk’ 10 k + AP but hey lets glitch mossman, archdiviner, ellen kiel and hell let’s do that JP so we can range mai trin from the top!
2. I am in fully ascended zerk gear, memorized all the pro vids so I gotta be pro right!? lets mindlessly stack up and it will magically negate all dmg and one shot all bosses!

Just a few things I am wary of which is why, again, I opt to make my own group so I can exercise a little quality control. Not having ownership of the instance frustrate my attempt at this. I would love nothing more than the deaf/mute mechanical efficiency groups that get things done.
Even when I say nothing, I have had my instance hijacked. If its not because I could not manage to res 4 downed people while Mai Trin and Horrik on me or during cannon rounds then because I refuse to participate in some glitch – which I make a very clear point to state at START of run. (no lupi skips, no mossman glitch, no wierdazz out of bounds safespot, no bear glitch molten zerker, no wall/elixer/FB/curtain/turrets/smokescreen/banners/spirits….NOTHING on wall plsssss) or a plethora of other reasons. Do you have any idea how sad it is to see a ranger face-tank solo Mossman @ 50 purely on GS evade for an hr while 2 guards and 1 mes lie dead and then have them kick me and replace with a war when I merely said “reflects help a lot” Its…sad.
Give me back instance ownership, I care not how other people play in THEIR groups, but in mine, let me play it MY way.

Not saying it’s right OP, but people more often care about how you address them instead of what you address them with. I’ve never run with you (to the best of my knowledge) but it seems like most of the comments that have some semblance of civility to them point towards your social graces and interpersonal tact.

Now you can of course assume that everyone will read your post and interact in a very businesslike fashion but it’s likely a recipe for disaster. A “hello, how’s it going?” can actually go a long way. No one likes to be greeted awkwardly with “ping gear and traits.”

It’s much like extending your hand to shake with someone you’ve just met and having them blow past you asking you to show you the latest figures on X, Y, Z business deal (just as an example). It comes off as rude and leaves a very nasty impression. You might very well be a great guy/gal but you’ve got to give people a chance to see it.

More often than not, people won’t care what you know or how good you are. If they don’t like your attitude, you could be leading them by the hand to the fountain of youth and they would still drop you from the party. Like it or not, it is an MMO where if you’re going to PUG, you’re going to need to get along with others.

So, OP, you can either keep trying to put square pegs into round holes or with very minimal effort, you can make a nice first impression and observe some simple social graces, and then really blow them away when they see how skilled you are throughout the dungeon.

Maybe you’re doing all of this and still having back luck. If that’s the case, sorry to hear it. Best of luck though!

You win some and you lose some with pug, and it sounds like you pug a a lot.
Personally, I find most people don’t read the descriptions on LFG. Even if they do they tend to have different expectations/understanding on what you are requesting in your groups, but I won’t go into detail.

Have you thought about looking for like minded players with another guild or adding like minded players to your guild/friends list? Might take a week or 2 to find, but could save you more frustration in the long run.

Ahhh, Langrim, I knew that name was familar. I’m used to seeing you on my BLOCKLIST!

This guy plays out like he’s the victim “oh I am just a lonely guise looking for zerk group and dey always mean to me.”

In reality, this guy is brutally mean to all pugs. The group I was in was constantly told how much we sucked, had low DPS and were a bunch of failures. So eventually, I was fed up with him being this way, whispered 2 people (that I knew we also pugs, the 4th was his buddy, I could tell) and we all consented to kick him on the second fractal. The categorized fractal. Then lone behold his friend (who we did not kick, they were not being mean) starts to re-invite him, I keep denying, eventually he’s accepted before I could kick again. All 3 of the pugs were kicked out of the fractal.

Yeah, play the victim. You’re obviously not.

Ah, remind me which character you were on Sunset. I vaguely remember this.
Show me pls, produce one shred of proof an instance where I employed foul language against you or any PUG pls. But pls spare me your hurt feelings because you implied insult from what I say. If what I say is wrong, then show me how I was wrong? If you equate your own personal character with game skills and dps and take insult at every little assessment that does not please you, then I do not see how I can be at fault. People can get insulted over pretty much anything – does that mean I must cater to every single whim and quirk?

I get this a lot. I am a straightforward guy, if group lacks dps, I say we lack dps. I ask for things like banners reflects etc (btw the green censor is my name, so it shows u what I said sometimes there on the Wall). The stuff on the Wall is just a small sample of the responses I get. At no time do I curse or insult them (again ..do you count me telling a staff spamming celestial guard he is not dps an insult?) and I do not reply as soon as they throw a verbal insult. Find me an “elitist scum” that will apologize and explain why he has kicked a PUG not fitting his LFG when the PUG asks why. Please tell me a nicer way to say GTFO of my instance than “this group is probably not for you….”

Let me pose these questions to you: if I was the elitist monster you perceive, would I allow you to be in my instance long enough to wipe repeatedly on something that should be quotidian for people who fit my LFG post or long enough for you to get other PUGs to agree to kick me out of my own instance? Especially since I have my buddy with me and can get rid of you at the first sign of trouble. Also may I inquire as to why you and 2 other PUGs waited so long and put up with my ‘bad behavior’ until after I soloed to get the group to 2nd to kick? You always had the option to leave at any time if you found me so unbearable…

I am fully aware of the risks of PUGging. I reiterate that I speak not of the times when I join existing LFGs but of the times when I made my instance and my own group with stated requirements. Is it not the mantra of this MMO to play as you want? So tell me please, why is it “brutally mean” to state what you want and yes sometimes kick 20 PUGs who clearly did not have the decency to read or respect the LFG post before the 5 minute mark from your instance.

To be fair you probably had no idea it was my instance or my run. How can I make myself to look like a victim when the current system makes griefing a victimless crime? The perpetrators continue with impunity and the only relief is when I am lucky enough to reclaim my instance. There is no ownership and I cannot back up the claim that it is my run unless you count making the instance and posting the LFG. This goes back to what I said – instance ownership is necessary. Dc? Cannot be helped. Ragequit? Make your own instances and be safe from …oh wait, instead of rage quitting they can just kick you instead…
I appreciate those of you with helpful tips here. The reality is no matter how ‘nice’ you are, griefers will grief. The only certainty in PUG is that people look out for their own interests above all else and fear of losing their own progress in a run is the best motivation to get along and the best deterrent against a victimless crime.

sunset.3056:

Ahhh, Langrim, I knew that name was familar. I’m used to seeing you on my BLOCKLIST!

This guy plays out like he’s the victim “oh I am just a lonely guise looking for zerk group and dey always mean to me.”

In reality, this guy is brutally mean to all pugs. The group I was in was constantly told how much we sucked, had low DPS and were a bunch of failures. So eventually, I was fed up with him being this way, whispered 2 people (that I knew we also pugs, the 4th was his buddy, I could tell) and we all consented to kick him on the second fractal. The categorized fractal. Then lone behold his friend (who we did not kick, they were not being mean) starts to re-invite him, I keep denying, eventually he’s accepted before I could kick again. All 3 of the pugs were kicked out of the fractal.

Yeah, play the victim. You’re obviously not.

You are kind of leaning towards my theory. There is no way you would get those whisps if you did not;
a) kicked someone
b)called someone names
c) got in some kind of whisp fight after being kicked
d) somebody insulted your gf with who you obviosly play

So i can figure out you team up with your gf and play dungeons with her and usually kick together. Maybe she sucks and can’t play kitten. Maybe you both suck potato salad. Maybe you are elitists who are bad and trash your pug party while max ranging even the ambient creatures (never too much safety!!) Or pro melee elitists who trash those who are not.

We will never know. But i know there is no way you can get this treatment if you weren’t treating them the same or similar and then they backfired.

Edit: to make myself clear, no instance owner is the best thing that happened in lfg. That forces others to be polite even the sacred instance owner. Sounds to me like you got used to be instance owner then be obnoxious to your party and boss them around because you knew they can’t kick you.

Well la di da.

Since i’m in no guild, i pug exclusively.
And yea, i’m wearing full zerk on any of my characters bc i prefer to finish my runs fast.
Maybe i am very lucky but most of my groups are amazing.

I’m saying hello and bye to ppl and if they start chatting, i jump in. Never had any harrassment or insults in my dungeonruns. There is a german saying which i can’t translate but it is: Wie man in den Wald schreit, so schallt es auch raus.. (What you shout in the forrest comes back around?)

And i don’t think an instance belongs so anyone.. (except if u solo’ed it completely). There were 4 other ppl doing their parts (maybe more or less, but still). If you can see from the beginning that they don’t fit to you and no one seconds the kick, you are free to leave and create another group. Might save some frustration for you AND the ppl you left.

sunset.3056:

In reality, this guy is brutally mean to all pugs. The group I was in was constantly told how much we sucked, had low DPS and were a bunch of failures. So eventually, I was fed up with him being this way, whispered 2 people (that I knew we also pugs, the 4th was his buddy, I could tell) and we all consented to kick him on the second fractal. The categorized fractal. Then lone behold his friend (who we did not kick, they were not being mean) starts to re-invite him, I keep denying, eventually he’s accepted before I could kick again. All 3 of the pugs were kicked out of the fractal.

Saying you suck is an understatement. You are a total liability to the group. Not doing what your class should be doing and expect to be carried. Go on go on and defend yourself, anyone here can invite you to their group and they will agree with me.

Low DPS? Dude you have NO DPS.

Aah this is why I love reading the forums.

Taku.6352:

Aah this is why I love reading the forums.

passes some popcorn to Taku

Personally, I guess I’m just too old for the kind of language on display here … good thing I’ve never encountered anything like it while pugging.

Nice

This is why I don’t pug. Even if you bother to do gear checks, recklessly kick everyone who does not run meta builds you will still get people who don’t know when to use what skill, don’t blast fields or use weird DPS rotations

Don’t get me started on all the other kittens

Linken.6345:

Am I the only one who keep wondering what he told them to get those whispers

“[assuming its op] can we pls have 2 banners disc and str now
[assuming its op] 2 wars”
Yeah very offensive! asking wars to bring banners (or asking ppl to bring group buffs) to group content is utmost offensive! Sure its very cumbersome to trait for banners.

traited banners/10 – “PuG of the year” – IGN

I’m not sure if I haven’t ended up in a pug with the op because he is on the other system or because I only join pugs with rangers in them if they say “all welcome” and I’m in a casual kind of mood. Either way, I’m thankful. A low dps pug is one thing, but a low dps pug where one guy won’t stop complaining about it is so much worse.

I have pugged a lot at all times for all kind of content (any dungeon, any level of fractals) and have never had even a fraction of your problems. If I was ever kicked I don’t even remember and I’m not always soft spoken.

That being said, saying things requires a bit of subtlety : identify your group, if most of it is obviously like-minded players then you can afford to be a bit harsh on one or two member and tell them what they’re doing wrong.

If most of it is playing unefficiently then you can decide to either try to teach them with calm without hurting feelings or to get out which is probably a better idea.

A simple advice regarding group advertisement for anything that isn’t Arah or FotM : keep it simple : “px”, “forward” or “up” is more than enough. How so ? People joining this kind of advertisement are (very) often people who know the game enough to not fear whoever might be in there.

Even experienced people can be intimidated by too restrictive announcements, it’s not really about “Am I good enough ?” but about “Do I want to be judged ?”.

Also it is more time efficient to just get a fast group without preemptive judgement and just either do the run even if it’s a little longer or find another quick group if this one is too slow rather than trying to find the perfect match at all cost.

Also there is a better way of saying “this is not a group for you” : make them realize it. First this is only possible for arah/fotm/aether (no other path can really go too bad). Then to do so just ask them questions : “Are you sure you have enough AR ? If not you’ll just get crushed by agony !”, “If you guys don’t know this path it will take hours and I’m not in the mood to teach :/”, …

Final point : just leave if you’re not willing to do the run with what you have. If you’re staying, be patient, helpful and polite instead of putting pressure on people leading to a bad atmosphere.

Well, you don’t often get kickef from “LF2M cute chars with a crush on pandas, pretty please bring flowers. Tell me your favourite colour on join, no one gets kicked! xoxo“ LFG’s.
But you might get kicked for playing like a salad once you join a “Hardcur META EXP ZERKER only, Gearcheck or kick, 500000 AP, 14Legendaried, Hurr Durr“.
Both are exagerated examples but you get what I mean.
The issue I encountered often is that alot of pugs either don’t speak english very good or simply refuse to read.
Example: Exp only means in most cases experienced only, not explorable only. I often had to see players who might have thought of the 2nd version.

Also if you join a super hardcore LFG, people require that you do your job. If you refuse to, you’ll get kicked. Same goes for RL, if a cook doesn’t know how to cook. He won’t be a cook for long, will he?

DaveGan.8065:

It does not take me long to figure out if a player fits the post. If they do not, I usually ask them to leave as cordially as possible : “If you are not experienced, or do not know what AR is, or if you are not familiar with the dps meta, this group is not for you….drop pls”

Better to just kick, and make sure to do it early, if you’re going to do it at all.

Also, if you’re not addressing that line to a specific individual, it’ll feel like you’re addressing everyone in the group. With you being the source of the now-oppressive atmosphere, this is an extremely easy way to get 3-4 people eager to second that kick on you.

Finally, the lack of things like DPS meters and the persistence of the “zerker meta” (with a focus on the “zerker” rather than “meta”) has created a community of PuGs who feel validated by gear rather than execution or more specific elements. In other words, the only time they feel they should be tested is at the LFG filter keywords. Attempting to filter past that can be seen as excessively hostile and unnecessary.

In other words, you’re getting kicked because you’re putting people in “don’t-get-myself-kicked” mode. At some point, 2 or more of the group form the conclusion that the best shot they have of finishing the run is replacing you and carrying the weak link.

When you’re seen as oppressive, you no longer get the benefit of the doubt as a rational decision maker, and people fear that you will begin to scapegoat the cumulative errors of the run on their next small slip-up.

This is also why I try not to PuG, and when I do, I’ll put up a fairly tight LFG filter but will hardly ever try to enforce it on those who join.

Excellent post. Completely agree!
In my experience, PUGs are very tolerant and it takes a lot for someone to be kicked. You definitely need to examine your own behaviour if you are being kicked routinely.

Oxidia.8103:

You are kind of leaning towards my theory. There is no way you would get those whisps if you did not;
a) kicked someone
b)called someone names
c) got in some kind of whisp fight after being kicked
d) somebody insulted your gf with who you obviosly play

So i can figure out you team up with your gf and play dungeons with her and usually kick together. Maybe she sucks and can’t play kitten. Maybe you both suck potato salad. Maybe you are elitists who are bad and trash your pug party while max ranging even the ambient creatures (never too much safety!!) Or pro melee elitists who trash those who are not.

We will never know. But i know there is no way you can get this treatment if you weren’t treating them the same or similar and then they backfired.

Edit: to make myself clear, no instance owner is the best thing that happened in lfg. That forces others to be polite even the sacred instance owner. Sounds to me like you got used to be instance owner then be obnoxious to your party and boss them around because you knew they can’t kick you.

Well la di da.

A. Yes I do kick, more often than I ever like to have to. But are you saying I cannot kick a lvl 40 that joins my fotm 50 group insisting he is experienced? Or the sub 80s that many times ‘forced’ their way into my group with their friends when I posted for 80s then tell me something like ‘well too bad you got a 75 and experienced’ when I tell them I only wanted 80?
Are you telling me I am under obligation to carry sub-80s, ungeared inexperienced when I clearly asked for otherwise?
Keep in mind this is NOT a PUG I joined – those I never failed to play by house rules and rarely get kicked at all. This is MY instance, MY run.
I have never kicked simply because a player is ‘bad’. I do not even kick sometimes when he obviously is not experienced or dps or whatever my post was if the player proves they can be worked with. But then you get people who give me stuff like the Wall when simply asked for things like banners or reflects and that is when you know they will not cooperate or be of any use and you might as well try to salvage your run.

B. C. D. : Are you so certain? What of the times when I had my solo instances stolen when i tried to give it away?
You presume that I got into ‘whisper’ fights – show me proof that I did? I do not reply once things begin to look like a ‘fight’ Once in a while a fairly reasonable player or two will whisper and ask why they were dropped from group – you see some of the answers I give on the Wall there – ‘sry experienced only’ inevitably followed by some Wall-worthy reply from them and for my part it ends there. I only replied because they might have been unsure of the requirements and if they asked before throwing insults I deem them to be reasonable folk.

Having no instance owner does not force people to be nice – does that keep you from getting kicked and replaced for their friends/guildies even after you soloed all the way to last boss while everyone else could not even survive skips? Right….the multitudes of sellers and soloers who had theirs stolen at last boss by the now infamous arah hijacker probably deserved it because they instigated it by some grievous insults right? All it does is force players into play styles they did not want. Did not want inexperienced and sub-80 in your run? Too bad its not your instance unless you soloed most of it! (by this logic people cannot sell arah p1, because more than likely they only soloed 80 % of it at most and the instance is not theirs to sell.)

Sure I can leave if I did not like what my group become. Would you have left if you made the instance, pushed yourself hard to carry your group while PUGs ragequit left and right while the newer ones who just joined insist that you play their way even if u posted otherwise 2 hours into what is more like a single player game for you? And what of the times when I refused to glitch/exploit (keep in mind it was my run, my instance) Or perhaps you are telling me that it is perfectly legitimate to force players to glitch/exploit and kick them from their own instance if they do not?
Pronounce judgment on my personal character if you must, but read my words for what they are. (btw I do not game with my gf, those times it is one of my female friends, sis, or most hilariously – my male friends clad in female pixels – but hey you assumed they are just like those people on the Wall so they must be right?). I am glad that you and some live in perfect worlds where bad things only happen to bad people. I have to contend with mine.

Rasimir.6239:

Taku.6352:

Aah this is why I love reading the forums.

passes some popcorn to Taku

Personally, I guess I’m just too old for the kind of language on display here … good thing I’ve never encountered anything like it while pugging.

Gimme some.

I’ll repeat an earlier question and ask another one as well.

• When you addressed issues (especially low dps) did you address the offender(s) individually or did you just address the whole group (in their eyes, everyone except you)?

Failing to do this puts the whole group into “don’t-get-kicked mode”. At that point, they will do whatever it takes to ensure they are not kicked, and it will soon become clear that kicking you becomes the optimal route.

I guarantee you, that after a certain point in the run, if you attacked the whole group rather than a specific individual, I myself would immediately mark you as incompetent (unable to see the true problem) and/or irrational (scapegoating, bearing excessive grudge), and I would be more than happy to second a kick at that point.

• Did everyone (especially players who joined later) know and acknowledge that it was your group?

If this was not the case, it will be ironic but probably at least a few of those who kicked you thought they were doing the instance owner a favor by getting rid of you.

Keep in mind this is NOT a PUG I joined – those I never failed to play by house rules and rarely get kicked at all. This is MY instance, MY run.

Let me remind you that even if it is your run, your impunity only lasts to a certain point (usually first/second boss). After that point, if you haven’t filtered players, you will have effectively validated them, and they will be more or less equals with their own equal investment in the run. After this, they will be fully justified in kicking you for going against the rest of group.

As a side note, you would not be wrong for trying to reclaim your instance back, and they would not be wrong for kicking your friend out to ensure you don’t return. At this point, both groups realize they cannot coexist with each other, and there is only one instance, so initiative, faster clicking, and a bit of luck will be the deciding factor.

I also guarantee you, even if instance owner was still in place, I would not hesitate to execute the Samson option, if I ever felt that the possibility of you acting irrationally had increased from doubtful to probable. M.A.D. is a very effective check-and-balance to ensure the party leader contributes his fair share with minimal drama.

tl;dr—You’re getting kicked because you’re likely triggering people’s self-preservation mechanisms. Also, your impunity as party leader only lasts up until a certain point, as after that you have effectively validated them by not having already kicked them.

You must be aware, you told it yourself : “there’s no instance ownership”. You must stop to consider an instance “yours” because you put it on lfg.

If people join, this is a public instance and you have to adapt to people or get out just as if you joined one.

The only notion of ownership can come from being 3 guildmates/friends in the group.

Your attitude here is already too aggressive for a public game btw.

The berserker meta lets us limit our elitism to something every player has a choice in,
rather than to things out of the reach of some.
The alternatives would be far worse.

Hmmm. Possibly. Imagine if we actually had a viable way to filter by skill, not by gear! /laugh
Drama ensued.

GrimmR.3541:

Well, you don’t often get kickef from “LF2M cute chars with a crush on pandas, pretty please bring flowers. Tell me your favourite colour on join, no one gets kicked! xoxo“ LFG’s.
But you might get kicked for playing like a salad once you join a “Hardcur META EXP ZERKER only, Gearcheck or kick, 500000 AP, 14Legendaried, Hurr Durr“.
Both are exagerated examples but you get what I mean.
The issue I encountered often is that alot of pugs either don’t speak english very good or simply refuse to read.
Example: Exp only means in most cases experienced only, not explorable only. I often had to see players who might have thought of the 2nd version.

Also if you join a super hardcore LFG, people require that you do your job. If you refuse to, you’ll get kicked. Same goes for RL, if a cook doesn’t know how to cook. He won’t be a cook for long, will he?

What about pandas and most random pugs i have seen are just kicked who have no intention of listening or taking advice, no point in trying to deal with them since most I’ve tried to help were threatened some how from takimg advice on something they did not know

Lyndis.4653:

If people join, this is a public instance and you have to adapt to people or get out just as if you joined one.

The only notion of ownership can come from being 3 guildmates/friends in the group.

Your attitude here is already too aggressive for a public game btw.

Stupidest kitten I’ve ever read.

Second stupidest kitten I’ve ever read.

Based on the first this is the third stupidest kitten I’ve ever read.

Dear Op. I’m talking about my 2 years experience in pugging. You are constantly talking about “shred of evidence” and “proof”, because you posted little conviniently cut out insults of other people towards you.

The thing is, in my two and something years of running pug fractals 1-50, all dungeons story and explorable i have never ever experienced that kind of swearing towards me or any party member no matter what me or others did (and trust me, there was a fair share of pretty dense people in partyes).

Learn how to interact with people, or not interact al all and just relax rather then post a greefing post how you are so awesome and sinless yet everybody kicks you and insults you for no reason at all.

Which is clearly not true as i can read from those mean people who once or twice ran a dungeon with you and now you are on their block list.

Thanks for your dialogue,

I remind you that what goes on the Wall is mostly stuff that I get when I attempt to filter my own group/instance from the start. There had been little or no exchange prior and its not always a kick, sometimes they leave on their own but decide to throw a ‘Wall -worthy’. If I joined a group and owner is not clear, I defer all decisions to majority and abide by them, or leave if I cannot. Often times in a PUG when asked to second a kick because some other member was bad etc…I always reply – I will not, its not my run/group/instance. If they choose to kick me for whatever reasons, I am fine with it – acceptable risks of being in someone else’s party.

• When you addressed issues (especially low dps) did you address the offender(s) individually or did you just address the whole group (in their eyes, everyone except you)?

Which sounds like the less aggressive and antagonistic option: Directly addressing one person be it their dps/utility/and other contribution OR stating that “we do not have the dps/experience for X strat”. Seems to me like addressing offenders individually is provoking them to perceive a direct attack where there is none.

I guarantee you, that after a certain point in the run, if you attacked the whole group rather than a specific individual, I myself would immediately mark you as incompetent (unable to see the true problem) and/or irrational (scapegoating, bearing excessive grudge), and I would be more than happy to second a kick at that point.

You would mark the only guy who just consistently soloed and carried you and the group forward as incompetent? I know its gray area – no dps meters etc. How can you tell? For some never dying or downing is great contribution – if this is the case I will range with tanky gear or better yet afk naked and never down or die thus justifying my spot on that group. Myself, I defer judgment and let the host/owner/poster decide if I am fitting.

• Did everyone (especially players who joined later) know and acknowledge that it was your group?

You stated my problem exactly, it is not with PUGs, those people who on the Wall or even those who kicked me from my instance – it is a backwards systems that did not take all relevant considerations into account.

Let me remind you that even if it is your run, your impunity only lasts to a certain point (usually first/second boss).

When I had instance ownership, I was never kicked from my instance and the Wall had not existed. Many an happy PUGs there were and I was far stricter. I pressed my advantage sometimes: “we will not be glitching boss – if you are uncomfortable fighting normally, get out of my group pls.” Or when I did address them outright – “you are clearly inexperienced, why join an experienced post?” Decent players left without incidences. The truly discontent ones stayed until the end. There were even a group of 3 friends who really hated me but did not kick nor make troubles – they waited until they received their daily chest and THEN expressed true feelings with colorful language that I shall not repeat here. Forgive me if I sound pessimistic, for all the pretty talk of niceties and pleasantries – most care and look out only for their own interest. If they so strongly believed my behavior was egregious they had the option to kick at the cost of forfeiting their progress – and a free carry. In general, most do not care how nice or even how good you are more than they do attaining their goal. Point being: instance ownership was a VERY strong deterrence/motivator, it worked.

I also guarantee you, even if instance owner was still in place, I would not hesitate to execute the Samson option, if I ever felt that the possibility of you acting irrationally had increased from doubtful to probable.

Indulge me, would you have deliberated with other PUGs aside from the one who seconded to see if they agreed with your assessment AND elect to forfeit their progress? Or do you assume the mantle of Righteous judge, jury and executioner and act of your own volition? May I ask what is there to be gained? If kicking me ends the instance for everyone and forfeit all progress, intolerable as my filthy elitism might be, why would you do it? Spite? I am sorry, this is abominable conduct that I personally abhor to even consider as it accomplishes nothing. If I hated the owner that much, I simply leave – maybe it is justifiable and righteous to you, each to his own I suppose.

Cast your stones and condemnations – for my greatest sin is acting on the notion that some people will behave themselves not because its the right thing to do, but because their own interests are at stake.

Indulge me, would you have deliberated with other PUGs aside from the one who seconded to see if they agreed with your assessment AND elect to forfeit their progress?

Quite honestly, I could only ever execute this if there was someone to second the kick, so there would have to be someone who at least roughly agreed. On the other hand, hypothetically, I would immediately assume the role of judge/jury/executioner with zero regret in a state of self-preservation.

If kicking me ends the instance for everyone and forfeit all progress, intolerable as my filthy elitism might be, why would you do it? Spite? I am sorry, this is abominable conduct that I personally abhor to even consider as it accomplishes nothing.

Maybe I needed to spell out Mutually Assured Destruction (M.A.D.)? If ever I reasonably inferred from you that the probability of me being irrationally kicked by you had upgraded to “probable” levels, I would not have hesitated to end the instance, the same way you should not hesitate to leave as the instance owner if your group was full of incompetence and trolling beyond help.

Why? It’s to ensure you never reach that “probable” state of irrationality in the first place. Remember well what I said about limited impunity: it’s not your sole instance forever.

Which sounds like the less aggressive and antagonistic option: Directly addressing one person be it their dps/utility/and other contribution OR stating that “we do not have the dps/experience for X strat”. Seems to me like addressing offenders individually is provoking them to perceive a direct attack where there is none.

The problem with casting blame to a group is that those who it is meant for think it is meant for someone else, and those who it is not meant for begin to think it was meant for them.

The group-wide accusation marks you as incompetent (overreaching to solve something you aren’t able to), irrational (seemingly calling out the whole group on the actions of a few), or a hypocrite (seemingly casting blame away from you toward everyone else).

If I was in the group with you and had executed my own rotations well, I would rather you point specifically to the mesmer (or whatever class) who didn’t execute than to the whole group. If it was me who didn’t execute, I would prefer you either whisper me about it (best) or address me personally in party chat (takes the pressure off everyone else).

If you’re not going to escalate to kicking, then either whisper or don’t judge until after the run. If you’re going to judge people for anything other than attitude, do it by the end of the first major encounter. After that, if you’ve said nothing, you’ve effectively passed them and made them equals with equal investment in your instance.

PS: kicking sellers was indeed backwards, but I don’t think any of that applies to your story. The change did indeed force instance owners to be more civil with their groups or face a lower threshold (it was higher before as it would have been a nuclear option only) for getting kicked themselves. I don’t think this is bad except maybe for the hopelessly socially incompetent, although I suspect your own party behavior may be fairly close to that.

DaveGan.8065:

Maybe I needed to spell out Mutually Assured Destruction (M.A.D.)?

Any military professionals can enlighten me if I wrong? M.A.D is a deterrence based military doctrine. If both sides of the conflict has or perceived their opponent to have the capability to utterly annihilate them, then neither will actually employ those capabilities for fear of retaliation leading to destruction of both. How appropriate that you brought this up!

That is somewhat the scenario of instance ownership and reinforces my stance on instance ownership. I have a nuke – I own instance, when I am gone, boom! You have a nuke – you and the others can kick me and it all goes boom! According to M.A.D., neither of us will actually do anything because it does not benefit either of us to blows ourselves both up and thus an uneasy/unspoken understanding is reached. We move on despite bitter mutual disagreement to AVOID the crisis.

If ever I reasonably inferred from you that the probability of me being irrationally kicked by you had upgraded to “probable” levels, I would not have hesitated to end the instance, the same way you should not hesitate to leave as the instance owner if your group was full of incompetence and trolling beyond help.

If you are offering M.A.D as justification when you kick me from my instance even if it means we all lose instance, I do not see how it applies. It sounds more like “hey I perceive this guy to be a threat, lets strap a bomb to myself and 3 other people and blow us all up”….Dangerous grounds to tread….This is not M.A.D it is madness.

I do thank you for your input though, and here I thought posting in the forums would be unpleasant. I will abstain from further correspondence to you here as it is looking more like a personal conversation rather than public discussion. Feel free to catch me in-game or msg if u have more insights or want to discuss military doctrines….I am a fan.

RemiRome.8495:

Lyndis.4653:

If people join, this is a public instance and you have to adapt to people or get out just as if you joined one.

The only notion of ownership can come from being 3 guildmates/friends in the group.

Your attitude here is already too aggressive for a public game btw.

Stupidest kitten I’ve ever read.

Second stupidest kitten I’ve ever read.

Based on the first this is the third stupidest kitten I’ve ever read.

You make 0 point therefore your post is automatically stupider than mine so…

It is just as it is implemented in the game : there is no ownership of an individual but decisions are made by the majority (paths and kicks). It is pure and simple fact. Considering you own an instance when people join you is delusion.

When you have the majority of people knowing each other they can make decision and one can then consider they own the instance. Care to try and prove that wrong ?

Third point has nothing to do with the first one. Some part of OP’s posts are, while not especially rude, quite blunt and can annoy a group.

I seriously wonder why you took the time to write this useless answer but here, have another shot at it if you want.

Common sense, human decency and respect is a thing.

That you advocate hostile takeovers and general kittenery then call Langris attitude too aggressive for a public game is hilarious.

The majority have the option of creating their own group instead of ruining another.
But why would the fairest and best option for all ever be taken when we can have delicious drama instead.

Lyndis.4653:

When you have the majority of people knowing each other they can make decision and one can then consider they own the instance. Care to try and prove that wrong ?

If majority mattered. Sure. But if it did we would agree so wouldn’t be much point then, eh?

edit: assuming they started the group. abusing majority for takeovers is bad mkay.

Lyndis.4653:

It is just as it is implemented in the game : there is no ownership of an individual but decisions are made by the majority (paths and kicks). It is pure and simple fact. Considering you own an instance when people join you is delusion.

This is exactly the problem with having no instance owner. Since every instance you start becomes public as soon as you put the group on the LFG, it doesn’t matter if you take 30 mins or even more to solo an instance to the end, it’s not your instance at all because you have no ownership over it. So if you invite 2 other friends/guildies and open the group to the public, it is perfectly fine to have one guy join, invite his friend and kick you and everyone else in group—because no such thing as instance owner. Plus they don’t even get kicked out, they can simply finish the rest of the run and get their 3g reward (from daily chest) with almost no effort on their part. So technically, if this happens to you then your instance never got stolen because it was never yours in the first place. Btw don’t think I’m making this up, I had this happen only recently. It wasn’t the first time either that I got kicked out of my own run after they made it so there no such thing as an instance owner, I never got kicked before this even once.

You can argue their change made instance owners more polite, and no one has to worry about the person who started instance leaving the group or going offline since they can just replace him, but there is also other problems now like people being more aggressive and abusing kicks, since nothing discourages it now. It used to be someone would not be so quick in kicking, maybe they would ask something like ‘wait.. did he start the instance?’ and if answer was ‘yes’ then they wouldn’t kick. Now the group doesn’t even have to think twice about kicking someone else that only 2 of them don’t agree with, since the instance belongs to nobody. No point, I don’t even sell anymore because players are more hostile now that there no such thing as instance owner at all.

Lyndis.4653:

If people join, this is a public instance and you have to adapt to people or get out just as if you joined one.

The only notion of ownership can come from being 3 guildmates/friends in the group.

Your attitude here is already too aggressive for a public game btw.

Not sure if trolling, but your post is just dead wrong that I don’t even know what to say. If I post for lvl 80 should I be ok with carrying any low lvls who join the group? It might not be my instance but I have a right to expect people to read/respect a LFG post, since I do the same. I don’t know about you, but I would rather kick them so they learn from this next time, rather than staying and adapting or leaving, both of which encourage their behavior that they might repeat with other groups.

RemiRome.8495:

Common sense, human decency and respect is a thing.

That you advocate hostile takeovers and general kittenery then call Langris attitude too aggressive for a public game is hilarious.

The majority have the option of creating their own group instead of ruining another.
But why would the fairest and best option for all ever be taken when we can have delicious drama instead.

Lyndis.4653:

When you have the majority of people knowing each other they can make decision and one can then consider they own the instance. Care to try and prove that wrong ?

If majority mattered. Sure. But if it did we would agree so wouldn’t be much point then, eh?

edit: assuming they started the group. abusing majority for takeovers is bad mkay.

I’m not in a public game and felt aggressed, this is way different.

I checked and apparently now two votes are enough to kick, which I find stupid and don’t know the reason of (thing is, I barely even use that feature so I wouldn’t know). That only means ownership happens at 4 people and you need more than majority.

What I said still consists in facts (even though I was wrong on the requirements to kick). You have to deal with what you get, no matter what announcement you made or if you create the instance or not. I don’t say that I think it’s a good thing but it is how it is. Calling me “the wrongest man in the whole universe” for stating that is quite excessive.

I generally know how to handle any party or when I just want to leave and clearly that’s OP’s problem if you ask me. The removal of instance ownership is another discussion that doesn’t really need to happen here.

And if you need my opinion on that, I slightly prefer it that way because instance ownership led to other abuses and to some problems (inability to switch character if owner, insecurity if owner disconnects).

My “stupidest ever” post seem to be misinterpreted. I didn’t mean that you’re force to cope with whatever comes in your party and do the dungeon with them. You have to manage it : either convince the guy to leave, convince others to kick him (with or without explanations) or decide that everyone is doing nonsense and leave. Isn’t that just true ? No matter your advertisement you either manage who’s joining, play with those who joined or leave.

As for the second part, replace 3 with 4 and it’s true.

I still stand by third point, if you want to be safe in a public game, make everyone feel safe and be gentle. If the group is not adapting and too slow, either leave or get it over with, your call.

We’re not forced to agree but stay polite and I will. RemiRome, you cannot criticize my behaviour after more or less calling me stupid without bringing anything.

Xuanxuan.8407:

sunset.3056:

In reality, this guy is brutally mean to all pugs. The group I was in was constantly told how much we sucked, had low DPS and were a bunch of failures. So eventually, I was fed up with him being this way, whispered 2 people (that I knew we also pugs, the 4th was his buddy, I could tell) and we all consented to kick him on the second fractal. The categorized fractal. Then lone behold his friend (who we did not kick, they were not being mean) starts to re-invite him, I keep denying, eventually he’s accepted before I could kick again. All 3 of the pugs were kicked out of the fractal.

Saying you suck is an understatement. You are a total liability to the group. Not doing what your class should be doing and expect to be carried. Go on go on and defend yourself, anyone here can invite you to their group and they will agree with me.

Low DPS? Dude you have NO DPS.

Pls keep your erelationships out of this thread, thank you.

And ya, I was wearing wupwup. Come @ me bro.

It looks to me as though the only people complaining about the removal of instance ownership are path sellers and people who are disrespectful to other group members. Sounds like it’s working as intended.

nagr.1593:

Lyndis.4653:

It is just as it is implemented in the game : there is no ownership of an individual but decisions are made by the majority (paths and kicks). It is pure and simple fact. Considering you own an instance when people join you is delusion.

This is exactly the problem with having no instance owner. Since every instance you start becomes public as soon as you put the group on the LFG, it doesn’t matter if you take 30 mins or even more to solo an instance to the end, it’s not your instance at all because you have no ownership over it. So if you invite 2 other friends/guildies and open the group to the public, it is perfectly fine to have one guy join, invite his friend and kick you and everyone else in group—because no such thing as instance owner. Plus they don’t even get kicked out, they can simply finish the rest of the run and get their 3g reward (from daily chest) with almost no effort on their part. So technically, if this happens to you then your instance never got stolen because it was never yours in the first place. Btw don’t think I’m making this up, I had this happen only recently. It wasn’t the first time either that I got kicked out of my own run after they made it so there no such thing as an instance owner, I never got kicked before this even once.

You can argue their change made instance owners more polite, and no one has to worry about the person who started instance leaving the group or going offline since they can just replace him, but there is also other problems now like people being more aggressive and abusing kicks, since nothing discourages it now. It used to be someone would not be so quick in kicking, maybe they would ask something like ‘wait.. did he start the instance?’ and if answer was ‘yes’ then they wouldn’t kick. Now the group doesn’t even have to think twice about kicking someone else that only 2 of them don’t agree with, since the instance belongs to nobody. No point, I don’t even sell anymore because players are more hostile now that there no such thing as instance owner at all.

Lyndis.4653:

If people join, this is a public instance and you have to adapt to people or get out just as if you joined one.

The only notion of ownership can come from being 3 guildmates/friends in the group.

Your attitude here is already too aggressive for a public game btw.

Not sure if trolling, but your post is just dead wrong that I don’t even know what to say. If I post for lvl 80 should I be ok with carrying any low lvls who join the group? It might not be my instance but I have a right to expect people to read/respect a LFG post, since I do the same. I don’t know about you, but I would rather kick them so they learn from this next time, rather than staying and adapting or leaving, both of which encourage their behavior that they might repeat with other groups.

Good for you that you stoped selling paths then this change with ownership did one of its imo intended purposes right.

cthaeh.2168:

It looks to me as though the only people complaining about the removal of instance ownership are path sellers and people who are disrespectful to other group members.

You just stepped on a landmine.

Langrim.2489:

(paraphrase) I don’t see how MAD applies

Here is where MAD applies. As the (former) instance owner, you would have the power to remove me from the group with seemingly no repercussions. That is, unless I or someone else exercise the nuclear option and blow up the whole instance, including you.

MAD is in effect because we now both have the power to “destroy” each other (although my nuke will cause some more collateral damage). But I will, of course, drop my nuke only when I feel an unjustified kick has reached the level of “probable”, most likely due to what I would (hypothetically) perceive as your growing levels of irrationality.

In other words, MAD has two aspects: 1.) to have both sides be able to guarantee such destructive capability that neither side will want to use such force on the other, and 2.) to actually be willing to follow through on using such force when necessary, to keep the deterrent effect credible

tl;dr—never give two or more people in the group the impression that you are watching them for a reason to kick them, because that just gives them a valid reason to kick you in the name of self-preservation and eliminating drama

You evidently engage in similar conversation or instigate the outcomes in your so called flame wall. Ive pugged 200+ fractals (god knows how many dungeons) and havent encountered anything as such. You’d be surprised how much more smoothly things will go if you dont shout or boss others around.

-groans at the mammoth-sized walls of text-

Forget the popcorn. I’m not reading all this.

To be relevant though: I don’t really care either way. Both system have huge flaws, both systems are bad in my opinion. This new one is overall more beneficial to the majority of people that do dungeons, however, because in the realm of pugging there’s a lot of ragequits.

Maybe someone has played a game with a perfect system before. I have not. Doubt there can really be one. My ideal situation would be a single unkickable party leader owning the instance.

You probably didn’t even need to read that whole sentence before realizing that system is also flawed. Some people are going to find a way around every system to hassle you, kick you, grief you, etc…

More often than not though, most folks are just looking to game without any trouble or drama. I’ve found that if you’re not a jerk to people, you will generally be welcomed with open arms. On top of that, if you’re a skilled player, you’ll look all the better for it.

Saint.5647:

Maybe someone has played a game with a perfect system before. I have not. Doubt there can really be one. My ideal situation would be a single unkickable party leader owning the instance.

You probably didn’t even need to read that whole sentence before realizing that system is also flawed. Some people are going to find a way around every system to hassle you, kick you, grief you, etc…

More often than not though, most folks are just looking to game without any trouble or drama. I’ve found that if you’re not a jerk to people, you will generally be welcomed with open arms. On top of that, if you’re a skilled player, you’ll look all the better for it.

So you want what we had before just change it so you cant even kick him at all, how is that a better system?

Want to solo arah sure do it then give away path or solo the boss dont try to sell it

Rasimir.6239:

Taku.6352:

Aah this is why I love reading the forums.

passes some popcorn to Taku

Personally, I guess I’m just too old for the kind of language on display here … good thing I’ve never encountered anything like it while pugging.

i’ll take some popcorn too, this is starting to get interesting