Guild Wars 2

Langrim – here are a few ways to handle things :

1)Run with a friend/ more friends. This will allow you to have total control over your party composition. If something doesn’t go your way instantly kick whatever isn’t working for you. Whether it’s the wrong class that joined, whether they didn’t ping gear or are just bad don’t try to negociate or rationalize things with them. They are PUGS. Kick and replace.

2)If you’re in a group with 4 other pugs and you see one failing instead of saying " i asked for this " on party chat just whisper some of the other members and inform them that x member is bad and you intend to kick – asking for their support.

Most people will gladly kick someone if they know it’s not them. And if you set up the kick through whispers with other people in the party the person getting kicked will not have the chance to turn against you.

Even if they have friends in the party ( say it’s 2 guildies and 3 pugs) as long as you don’t whisper their guildy you can pretty much surprise kick them fast enough before they can figure out what’s what.

3)Be smart about things – keep talking to pugs to a minimum and if you do try to reason with the most intelligent one.

My experiences with pugs haven’t been even remotely as bad as yours because I’ve learned one lesson.

In dealing with pugs be swift and merciless – better them than you.

This will get closed soon, all interesting threads are getting closed after a while..

cthaeh.2168:

It looks to me as though the only people complaining about the removal of instance ownership are path sellers and people who are disrespectful to other group members. Sounds like it’s working as intended.

It definitely isn’t disrespectful to completely ignore my LFG message and join my group when not fitting what was politely and clearly asked. And it definitely isn’t disrespectful to call me idiot and toxic when I politely ask to join another group without any requirements.

Not to mention that it definitely isn’t disrespectful to join mid-run and kick everyone out with help of a definitely not disrespectful friend.

guanlongwucaii.3162:

Linken.6345:

Saint.5647:

Maybe someone has played a game with a perfect system before. I have not. Doubt there can really be one. My ideal situation would be a single unkickable party leader owning the instance.

You probably didn’t even need to read that whole sentence before realizing that system is also flawed. Some people are going to find a way around every system to hassle you, kick you, grief you, etc…

More often than not though, most folks are just looking to game without any trouble or drama. I’ve found that if you’re not a jerk to people, you will generally be welcomed with open arms. On top of that, if you’re a skilled player, you’ll look all the better for it.

So you want what we had before just change it so you cant even kick him at all, how is that a better system?

Want to solo arah sure do it then give away path or solo the boss dont try to sell it

it is better because entitled kittens can’t join your run and grief it. look at those other stories of people (even those giving away) who get griefed because this new party system is garbage.

what is wrong with selling the path? anet says it is fine, and it is a win-win situation: people who are bad at the game/lazy buy paths and don’t kitten up the lfg (then again it just means poor people who are bad at the game kitten up the lfg) and people who are good enough to solo can earn a little extra profit.

just because you don’t know or don’t want to sell paths doesnt mean others shouldn’t.

then again i am probably responding to someone who is mentally handicapped/illiterate or something so this post is probably pointless (and worth another infraction lol)

It was a well worded response if you cut it short by 26 words, but hey we cant all be friends can we.
The old system was grabage to, not being able to kick instance owner who dc and never login for the rest of the path.
Soloing wasent intended but its very nice people are able to do it.
I thought people soloed for the challenge so finish it solo or giving it away seem like a good thing to do why would you nickle and dime people

Edit
being a good guy aint being mentally handicaped just fyi.
And sure im not the best speller or useing dot comma or proper sentencing but if you can understand me do that really matter at all mate?

Thanks for the tips!

1)Run with a friend/ more friends.

Remember those months – dry, bleak months not long ago where PVE was forsaken and there were no updates….Many names from friends list went gray and never lit up green again…Still recovering…

2)If you’re in a group with 4 other pugs and you see one failing instead of saying " i asked for this " on party chat just whisper some of the other members and inform them that x member is bad and you intend to kick – asking for their support.
Most people will gladly kick someone if they know it’s not them. And if you set up the kick through whispers with other people in the party the person getting kicked will not have the chance to turn against you.
Even if they have friends in the party ( say it’s 2 guildies and 3 pugs) as long as you don’t whisper their guildy you can pretty much surprise kick them fast enough before they can figure out what’s what.

Many times I am the minority or the other PUGs are friends/guilds – instance ownership was enough to convince people back then. It is surprisingly hard to convince a kick these days! (may just be my terrible luck) – sub 80s join, I initiate kick – PUGs who did not even know them: “Just let him stay, 76 is almost same as 80” It just feels like a shady deal to me whispering things behind people’s back. If I am alone – even if it is my instance I feel that the other LFG abiding members deserve to know why that person is getting kicked and not feel pressured into something they are not clear about – makes them feel insecure. When I join a PUG I will not second easily – it is not my instance/run/group (sub 80 in 80 LFG sure insta-kick but experienced/dps/even meta requirements differ from player to player). Yes I realize my own perhaps foolish quirks put me at risk but this fairness is how I certainly would like to be treated myself.

3)Be smart about things – keep talking to pugs to a minimum and if you do try to reason with the most intelligent one.

Swift and merciless got me “rude” at best and more likely: “your social skills are terrible – you deserved to get your instance stolen and worst”
Reasoning usually gets me an addition to the Wall.
There were a few rare times when people who clearly did not fit the LFG joined but did as they were asked to and at the end of the rough but manageable run I have gained a new ally – worth the risk? I should think so.
There is no winning…you either endure or don’t play – some of those now gray names were wise to choose the latter when they heard no more instance ownership…

Give me a fail-safe against the worst but please let me keep on hoping and believing in the best.

I didn’t read most of the other comments but I would like to put my opinion on this.

After reading your opening post, I remain neutral and I am not taking any sides. I am not trying to victim blame. However from your OP, it seems a little one-sided. What could you have said to the party that leads to kick? Honestly speaking, the number of bad experiences I had with PUG can be counted with one hand. I have played for over 1 year and I run dungeons and fractals PUG almost everyday after I reach 80 on my thief.

When I first started this game, I was very bad at my thief. I keep getting killed or carried by my party. Everytime when I join a PUG I don’t join the party that says “zerk. exp” or anything similar. This is not because I think it is elitism but I feel I am a liability to the party. As I get better I try to join zerk party. Some went well. Some wasn’t so good. I can remember I only got kicked 4 or 5 times over my 1.5 years of playing and that was because I was bad.

But the surprising thing was I only got kick so little times even though I was kitten bad. However, there was some parties who kick good players out of the party instead of me, the bad player. Why? They were very bossy or rude.

As I get better, I am not worried of joining zerker party anymore. I don’t get kick anymore because I am contributing to the party. Sometimes I make my own LFG zerk party asking for certain level of AR respective to the fractal tier. Most of the time it went smoothly. But I don’t kick people. I don’t even second any kick. I only do so if it the member was uncooperative or rude to the party. I don’t like playing with rude players. Often times the PUG I am with kick those who are bossy or rude even if they are skilled. Not the srubbish players.

I am a very chatty person so I always greet my party and chat with them. “Hiya all!” “How is everyone doing?”. During the runs I would strike up random conversation. "You guys did the silverwaste?’ “Wow the new carapace armour looks great!” Random. I meet more good and skilled players than bad. I also met a lot of rude arrogant but skilled players but I don’t play with them.

I am just sharing my experience. My opinion is that most PUG be it whether you are the instance owner or the one joining the group, no one likes being bossed around. From your screenshot, I would say most of the insult towards you is uncalled for. But have you considered maybe you may have sounded too bossy/arrogant for most players? Even many skilled players who I know can solo some dungeons don’t like playing with rude players regardless of their skills. I am not judging you of course, but I only see your side of the story. Personally speaking, after playing with so many PUG, and players from my friendlist, we don’t have it so much bad experience than you. The number of bad experience I’ve had can be counted with one hand.

Just my 2 cent. Hope all things goes smoothly for you soon.

I make everybody ping gear and sometimes tell me traits as well when I form any groups with LFG for fractals in particular. For Arah P1 I demand we kill Korga and no 1-shotting Lupicus.

I’m pretty strict with what I’ll accept in fotm in particular, but I never get kicked from my instances. Worst case scenario is I’ll just leave the group myself now since instances don’t close immediately when it happens. If people suck and aren’t willing to listen to me / second my kick votes then forget it, I’m outta there.

But, yeah… generally speaking most of the time the people I’m with know that I’m correct when I tell people things like “why the hell do we have a guard, a thief, and two eles including me yet I’m the only person bringing blinds?” or something like that.

I have a difficult time believing things are as OP says. There’s obviously some details we aren’t shown that’s causing all of this supposed griefing to take place and I believe the expenses incurred were likely either a result of abuse via party chat or just that he got unlucky a few times and is exaggerating over how much of a problem it is.

Thank you…

I was starting to believe all the bad and rude players join my groups exclusively.

I find it extremely hard to believe that someone attracts those kinds of reactions consistently without doing things (repeatedly) to bring it out in people.

Purple Miku.7032:

“why the hell do we have a guard, a thief, and two eles including me yet I’m the only person bringing blinds?”

I say things like this too – word for word sometimes. This lvl is as far as I am willing to go to communicate my displeasure. That is usually when I get kicked or receive the kind of attention that goes on the Wall.

I have a difficult time believing things are as OP says. There’s obviously some details we aren’t shown…

Me too! – I started the Wall partly because if told, even myself would have hard time believing. There is not much shown because…there was not much to show…It is one sided in that I do not participate in chat fights once there is a slightest hint of a fight.

Honestly, what’s on the Wall and far worst not on it do not bother me. Traited against it (Adept trait: [Thick-Headed] : Ignore all verbal abuse and take no physical/mental/emotional/spiritual damage from those attacks). Quite the opposite I find it ludicrously amusing.

My luck in PUG was stated by every friend who has ever PUGged with me, they use to joke how they feared my bad luck spreading – and it does….(I exercise even more restraint when friends are around so as to not make things unpleasant or risk them being collateral dmg)

While I do everything I can to cope with PUG – seeking out and learning from pros like Miku, my talented and always caring mentors PP and Iris, I do get some pretty bad PUGs more often than even they believe can happen. But they have also seen it -

War with magi? wth is condi healing toughness stat? wanting to kick my mesmer for ‘clearly’ being the low dps problem because he boasts a 20 k personal dps – I believe Iris has SS of this – (I want it for the Wall btw!)
One time a human guardian joins and dutifully pings his impressive regalia – zerk scholars check! However, only I happened to notice what he pinged out was medium armor with some being sylvari pieces – Ok I am no saint, I did not say anything for it was not my group and even if they posted zerk meta ping gear I trust the owners to be wiser and come on….it was kinda funny (lol I am terrible!)
Or how about that one time – Nevets the engineer and I was in a group for 50 zerk exp etc and we did very well, even managed to save group from wipes a few times 4 manning. When a guardian joins, I swap out my mesmer for my ranger Mini Vili, one PUG says “I will not frac with a ranger” and 3 people instantly ragequit. The one who said that was a PUG I played with many times and he had seen me solo more than a few times – he had also insta kick my ranger before. I know Nevets to be reasonable and skillful so that time it saved me there.

Most find my bad luck with PUG improbably unbelievable – then again many find my lucky drops to be improbable as well. Things were never this bad when I had instance ownership – this is my point – it had its flaws but it was a lesser acceptable evil. I will reiterate that I care not how people treat me in any chat. People might be unfair but the universe tend to be fair ultimately.

Langrim.2489:

Thanks for the tips!

1)Run with a friend/ more friends.

Remember those months – dry, bleak months not long ago where PVE was forsaken and there were no updates….Many names from friends list went gray and never lit up green again…Still recovering…

2)If you’re in a group with 4 other pugs and you see one failing instead of saying " i asked for this " on party chat just whisper some of the other members and inform them that x member is bad and you intend to kick – asking for their support.
Most people will gladly kick someone if they know it’s not them. And if you set up the kick through whispers with other people in the party the person getting kicked will not have the chance to turn against you.
Even if they have friends in the party ( say it’s 2 guildies and 3 pugs) as long as you don’t whisper their guildy you can pretty much surprise kick them fast enough before they can figure out what’s what.

Many times I am the minority or the other PUGs are friends/guilds – instance ownership was enough to convince people back then. It is surprisingly hard to convince a kick these days! (may just be my terrible luck) – sub 80s join, I initiate kick – PUGs who did not even know them: “Just let him stay, 76 is almost same as 80” It just feels like a shady deal to me whispering things behind people’s back. If I am alone – even if it is my instance I feel that the other LFG abiding members deserve to know why that person is getting kicked and not feel pressured into something they are not clear about – makes them feel insecure. When I join a PUG I will not second easily – it is not my instance/run/group (sub 80 in 80 LFG sure insta-kick but experienced/dps/even meta requirements differ from player to player). Yes I realize my own perhaps foolish quirks put me at risk but this fairness is how I certainly would like to be treated myself.

3)Be smart about things – keep talking to pugs to a minimum and if you do try to reason with the most intelligent one.

Swift and merciless got me “rude” at best and more likely: “your social skills are terrible – you deserved to get your instance stolen and worst”
Reasoning usually gets me an addition to the Wall.
There were a few rare times when people who clearly did not fit the LFG joined but did as they were asked to and at the end of the rough but manageable run I have gained a new ally – worth the risk? I should think so.
There is no winning…you either endure or don’t play – some of those now gray names were wise to choose the latter when they heard no more instance ownership…

Give me a fail-safe against the worst but please let me keep on hoping and believing in the best.

Fair to you and your points.
I do play and don’t endure. Just different schools of thought I guess.

I need to chime in that Langrim tends to have a worst luck when it comes to pug roll. I once duo’d Arah with him and we got kicked right off when putting up a giveaway LFG. To make it worse, his quirk doesn’t help :s

Iris Ng.9845:

I need to chime in that Langrim tends to have a worst luck when it comes to pug roll. I once duo’d Arah with him and we got kicked right off when putting up a giveaway LFG. To make it worse, his quirk doesn’t help :s

What quirk might that be do tell

Many people in PUGs dont care, that they are carried, that they waste time of other players. They just “play in the way they want and you cant tell them whats wrong, or GTFO”. Thats pretty selfish a rude behaviour. As Harper said, they have to be kick swifttly and mercilessly, because theres no other way to deal with them (no matter how nice you are, when speaking with them).

PS: Iam not talking about first timers, but about ppl who play for longer time, yet they dare to bring 4 signet guardian, flamethrower engineer and bearbow ranger to dungeon group.

Linken.6345:

What quirk might that be do tell

Some suggest that I be more aggressive in filtering or I should forfeit my instance. No one is arguing the need for a plan, yours is just stupid and won’t work! I have never abandoned a run no matter how bad; even if I taste color and feel pain in my head and feet. I see it to the end especially if friends are in group.

I try to be fair and not instigate trouble. If you joined my LFG and do not fit requirements, then I tell you that you’re not real, you can’t be here! I do not insult or reply to insults no matter how frustrating because I don’t let the enemy see me bleed – but it seems like they are getting paid by the word to insult me. I feel that if I just ignore and try my best, I will get what’s coming to me and maybe it will zero-sum this whole diabolical affair.

Sometimes if it’s manageable because I have a friend with me or I waited long and do not want trouble. I’ll ask for things like banners/reflects and even if you did not fit the LFG, no questions will be asked if you comply NOW. But a lot of times they had my head for a bowl ’o soup if I did that. Other times I have trouble convincing friends early on or that they see no problems with exploits/they do not want to spend another hr in LFG, I try to let it go and feels like I trained them to be an officer and they stab me in the back.

As for people I have kicked, if you joined my LFG, clearly had no respect for it and refused the chance I gave you, I am sorry but I will take care of the elimination, starting with you. If I wanted excuses, I’d ask you for them. If you take offense when I merely stated something like “why is the ranger(myself) the only one reflecting when we have 2 guards and a mes” then I am sorry, your weakness makes me laugh! I bear no ill will towards anyone, even those who hijacked. I don’t FEEL your rage as you do when you resorted to insults. Pity you weren’t more clever. Perhaps I would have found a better place for you in my ranks.

When I PUG I do not just dive in! I try to be reasonable and filter well but the current system makes it…ugh…a swamp…Those who do not believe it to be that bad. You don’t see this place through my eyes. A few suggested compromises to the system. This looks veeeery interesting! This looks veeeery interesting! This looks veeeery interesting! However, when it comes to PVE, I cannot help but feel like all of us…abandoned. For any mod reading, I simply ask that the issue be re-examined, I need a little of your expertise. I have never been kicked from my own instance when I had dungeon ownership – it did the job just fine.

Langrim.2489:

Linken.6345:

What quirk might that be do tell

Some suggest that I be more aggressive in filtering or I should forfeit my instance. No one is arguing the need for a plan, yours is just stupid and won’t work! I have never abandoned a run no matter how bad; even if I taste color and feel pain in my head and feet. I see it to the end especially if friends are in group.

I try to be fair and not instigate trouble. If you joined my LFG and do not fit requirements, then I tell you that you’re not real, you can’t be here! I do not insult or reply to insults no matter how frustrating because I don’t let the enemy see me bleed – but it seems like they are getting paid by the word to insult me. I feel that if I just ignore and try my best, I will get what’s coming to me and maybe it will zero-sum this whole diabolical affair.

Sometimes if it’s manageable because I have a friend with me or I waited long and do not want trouble. I’ll ask for things like banners/reflects and even if you did not fit the LFG, no questions will be asked if you comply NOW. But a lot of times they had my head for a bowl ’o soup if I did that. Other times I have trouble convincing friends early on or that they see no problems with exploits/they do not want to spend another hr in LFG, I try to let it go and feels like I trained them to be an officer and they stab me in the back.

As for people I have kicked, if you joined my LFG, clearly had no respect for it and refused the chance I gave you, I am sorry but I will take care of the elimination, starting with you. If I wanted excuses, I’d ask you for them. If you take offense when I merely stated something like “why is the ranger(myself) the only one reflecting when we have 2 guards and a mes” then I am sorry, your weakness makes me laugh! I bear no ill will towards anyone, even those who hijacked. I don’t FEEL your rage as you do when you resorted to insults. Pity you weren’t more clever. Perhaps I would have found a better place for you in my ranks.

When I PUG I do not just dive in! I try to be reasonable and filter well but the current system makes it…ugh…a swamp…Those who do not believe it to be that bad. You don’t see this place through my eyes. A few suggested compromises to the system. This looks veeeery interesting! This looks veeeery interesting! This looks veeeery interesting! However, when it comes to PVE, I cannot help but feel like all of us…abandoned. For any mod reading, I simply ask that the issue be re-examined, I need a little of your expertise. I have never been kicked from my own instance when I had dungeon ownership – it did the job just fine.

Yes certainly was easier to be a dic-tator when opener was unkickable, not sure what you are doing wrong when people who have played just as long dont have problems at all, might be your teaching methods, your people skills, I dont belive in bad luck only the rng jesus.
Never kicked bad players I have however kicked people who dont respond at all when spoken to, even if you dont speak the language you can say something when you see your char name in the sentence.

Edit
The msg you quoted wasent directed at you but at your friend Iris Ng.9845 since he/she/it clearly see a quirk in you that dont help so was curious what that might be

sunset.3056:

Ahhh, Langrim, I knew that name was familar. I’m used to seeing you on my BLOCKLIST!

This guy plays out like he’s the victim “oh I am just a lonely guise looking for zerk group and dey always mean to me.”

In reality, this guy is brutally mean to all pugs. The group I was in was constantly told how much we sucked, had low DPS and were a bunch of failures. So eventually, I was fed up with him being this way, whispered 2 people (that I knew we also pugs, the 4th was his buddy, I could tell) and we all consented to kick him on the second fractal. The categorized fractal. Then lone behold his friend (who we did not kick, they were not being mean) starts to re-invite him, I keep denying, eventually he’s accepted before I could kick again. All 3 of the pugs were kicked out of the fractal.

Yeah, play the victim. You’re obviously not.

I can vouch for this as well, at least the part of Langrim “playing the victim”. This guy’s pretty full of it, and I drop group if I see him appear in my parties.

Langrim, all this kind of hate you showed from your dungeon runs happen only in gw2 or you face that in real life too?
I remember a guy from my high school years that used to get bullied a lot in school and reading your posts made me remind of him.

I’ve bumped in to Langrim in Arah once or twice on ranger and he was a pretty competent player. Never saw any of this raging or anything, though I guess that’s because we would both just yolo ahead while everyone else lagged behind trying to perform skips etc.

But yes, judging from the posts I’ve seen in the thread, it sounds like he just vents anger at pug groups and then gets kicked by them, rather than “I didn’t do anything then got kicked”.

Because yes, sure, player X might be doing stupid thing Y, but regardless of how skilled or unskilled your pug group is, you’re bound simply by societal standards to show them all at least a modest level of courtesy. You can be a complete god at the game, but if you’re going to be a kitten then they have every right to boot you. When I used to pug arah paths, I wouldn’t bother getting angry at my group, I wouldn’t try to blow my own trumpet and rant about how I’m awesome at XYZ, because actions speak louder than words – if the party is dead on the floor and I solo a boss, then I can solo it and quietly move on. If they want to say anything about that, then well that’s their choice. This also means of course if I goof up and die, then well I don’t really look stupid since I wasn’t ranting at everyone beforehand for being bad.

Anyway, I’m probably starting to slide away from the point I was trying to make. the point is – I’ve never had any problem with the guy personally, but it sounds like he’s just playing the victim here – conveniently ignoring or downplaying the fact that he most likely ****-talks pugs in his groups when they make the slightest error.

The only solution to the problem currently is to just simply party with a friend who can second a kick. Be simple and precise, for instance, ask for wall of reflect or blast might, if they still continue not to do what their class is suppose to do, then simply just kick without arguing. Its faster and cleaner that way.

Langrim.2489:

Ah, remind me which character you were on Sunset. I vaguely remember this.

Your entire post shows you sarcasm and spitefulness that text shows, yeah you are pretty much what I described.
Did I think the party had low DPS? Yes, I did, did I kitten talk everyone because of it? No. Why you might ask? BECAUSE IT’S A PUG, If you want perfection join a speed clear guild, owait, you probably can’t because people don’t allow kittenheads in their guild.

I was the guardian who was picking up your mesmer friend off the ground. And yeah, I’m human so I make mistakes as well. I don’t rip someone a new kitten if they aren’t perfect.

But yeah, keep playing the victim. Langrim=definition of perfection.

Linken.6345:

Iris Ng.9845:

I need to chime in that Langrim tends to have a worst luck when it comes to pug roll. I once duo’d Arah with him and we got kicked right off when putting up a giveaway LFG. To make it worse, his quirk doesn’t help :s

What quirk might that be do tell

He tends to be a little overbearing when his companions are at risk. I have played with him since I was a noob ele. I know how frustrating it was to play ele at fotm 50 when my group didn’t provide enough support/DPS. I did a lot of research at the time to play comfortably with all kinds of group but not all are like me. I know his friends well; they are casual, they can pull their weight but they cannot easily cover for other 1-2 kittenty players. Most of the carrying falls onto Lang’s shoulders. With that utmost expectation to complete the dungeons at all costs because his friends already invested time to play with him, he took it into his responsibility in making a decent group and justified his passive hostility. I agree with Saint’s opinion on this matter.

However, I have been there with Langrim enough to say that sometimes pugs are downright defensive idiots. But they are nothing new. Most mature players just get over with it or stop pugging entirely (like me).

Just my loonie.

I pug every dungeon including Arah and Fractals up to 50, and I’ve noticed no such pattern of abuse. Rarely have I felt the need to kick someone, and even more rarely have I ever felt the need to kick someone, and have no one else agree with me to kick them.

True, it’s possible that Langrim really is just unlucky as you say. It’s far more probably, though, that he makes his own luck. Harping on errors, berating one’s teammates, and generally doing things that will turn his team against him, causing him to get kicked.

You can tell there must be seriously something off-putting about his attitude in these parties when the one person who is his “friend” and who is trying to defend him can only say he’s got “passive hostility.”

My bet is that if he started recording his experiences and posting them from us, we’d either a) See him acting like a jerk and getting kicked as a result, or b) See him alter his behavior so as not to seem like a jerk, and find that he’s not getting kicked anymore.

Subdue.5479:

True, it’s possible that Langrim really is just unlucky as you say. It’s far more probably, though, that he makes his own luck. Harping on errors, berating one’s teammates, and generally doing things that will turn his team against him, causing him to get kicked.

…

My bet is that if he started recording his experiences and posting them from us, we’d either a) See him acting like a jerk and getting kicked as a result, or b) See him alter his behavior so as not to seem like a jerk, and find that he’s not getting kicked anymore.

The thing is, he’s getting kicked because he’s “too nice” to kick first, and he doesn’t like to single out people not pulling their weight, so the message goes to all.

The obvious solution is for him to just turn into a true filthy elitist thorn like the rest of us. He tries to give people a second chance, probably screws up the delivery and ends up antagonizing most of the group, and the rest is history.

Although Langrim probably bears a fair amount of responsibility for the messes he’s gotten into, be extremely careful not to hold him too accountable. That is, unless you have no problem with him reconsidering those second chances he tries to give to others.

When I’m not dungeon touring with the boys from [OP] I also do PUG runs.

This is my PUG story:

LucosTheDutch is a happy little bloke who usually has no problem with PUGs at all, until he runs into people like Langrim. He then happily seconds a kick request when it pops up. Sure, Langrim might be more familiar with the meta, he might even be a better player, but that doesn’t matter when you’re being an egocentric kitten who really needs to learn some basic social skills.
When LucosTheDutch does PUG runs, he cares more about a good atmosphere and good teamwork where people actually show some patience and help each other out in a friendly way when needed. People like Langrim offer the opposite. People like him often create a toxic environment where good people leave on their own accord or get kicked for no good reason. LucosTheDutch doesn’t like that and he simply wishes to finish his dungeon runs without needless drama. Therefor LucosTheDutch kicks people like Langrim from the party.

The End

Since we’re sharing PUG stories, here’s another funny one:

I was doing AC p1 with terribad ele who didn’t even summon frost bows and FGSs during the burrow section. the DPS of the party was horrible and I think the only 2 people running meta builds in that instance was myself and my brother. Then after failing the burrow section for the 3rd time the ele started bossing us around. I told him he had no right to boss people around and that his DPS sucked and he needed to drop some ice bows and FGSs for us so we could take down those burrows faster. He said he couldn’t do that because he was a “healer ele” and it was “his job” to heal the party so us “zerker noobs” wouldn’t go down. Obviously after he said that I decided to vote kick him. That vote got seconded rather quickly. Sadly enough the ele turned out to be the instance owner so we all got kicked from the instance. That kinda sucked.

^
See, this is why NOT having an instance owner is a GOOD thing.

I can tell from experience that people will kick you or threaten you when you ask them to do certain stuff repeatedly. The first time you ask for wor / sota / fb / blinds / banners / might / fury, you will usually be answered with silence. When you ask for the 5th time and you add in a kittening somewhere in that sentence it’s not uncommon to see the loading screen pop up. The same can happen when you want them to use certain strategies.The risk of getting kicked increases significantly when the pugs are friends or in the same guild. It doesn’t happen that often but it’s common enough to be a legit complaint.
If you hold your tongue and endure it’s extremely unlikely you’ll get kicked unless you kitten up hard. I personally can’t just sit silently when I’m trying my best to get the group to succeed and the others are too lazy/special to change one utility that will help the group tremendously.

In general PUGs are a bunch of selfish kittens that are in it for the rewards and don’t give a kitten about the rest. Anecdotal evidence from the month november:
- giving away AC P3 trough lfg. I tell them I’m going to solo the last boss. They join in anyways and kill it.
- Fotm 50, party memeber disconnects during molten duo fight. I mention it the moment it happens and ask the party to stop dpsing when the boss reaches 10% hp. 1 person actually stops, the other 3 killed it.

Langrim is either quite unlucky or a kitten to the people he’s playing with, perhaps a combination of both. Considering the experiences I’ve had with pugs and the attitude of these players in general I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
I also agree that removing instance owner is a change for the worse. You have no safety and can’t enforce anything. When people get fed up with you they will kick you without a second thought. A lot of people lack empathy for fellow players.

Also @LucosTheDutch: Since that ele was the instance owner, he probably started the lfg and according to your story you provoked him first, you guys are the ones that griefed him. At least the previous system discouraged players like you from doing kitten like that since it punished you as well. I’m not saying he was right though and he was probably as bad as you make him out to be.

DaveGan.8065:

Subdue.5479:

True, it’s possible that Langrim really is just unlucky as you say. It’s far more probably, though, that he makes his own luck. Harping on errors, berating one’s teammates, and generally doing things that will turn his team against him, causing him to get kicked.

…

My bet is that if he started recording his experiences and posting them from us, we’d either a) See him acting like a jerk and getting kicked as a result, or b) See him alter his behavior so as not to seem like a jerk, and find that he’s not getting kicked anymore.

The thing is, he’s getting kicked because he’s “too nice” to kick first, and he doesn’t like to single out people not pulling their weight, so the message goes to all.

The obvious solution is for him to just turn into a true filthy elitist thorn like the rest of us. He tries to give people a second chance, probably screws up the delivery and ends up antagonizing most of the group, and the rest is history.

Although Langrim probably bears a fair amount of responsibility for the messes he’s gotten into, be extremely careful not to hold him too accountable. That is, unless you have no problem with him reconsidering those second chances he tries to give to others.

No this is not how it happens, sorry. People don’t kick you because you tried to kick someone out that everyone perceived as being a a major hindrance. The kick you out for either being that major hindrance, or for being a an annoying tool. And since we’re saying he’s a great player, that really just leaves one alternative.

30 min ago a fractal buddy of mine whisped me if i want to join lvl 50 fractals. Second one, hammer. As i just promised my other fractal buddy i will do it with him i asked if i can bring him along, he said sure. So we join and the buddy i invited typed: omg you are still on the boss?? You were on thus boss like an hour ago. So i smelled some troubles. He prevously played with them but quit due….well i’ll get to that in a second.

We had 3 warrs, guardian and ele. So pretty much great settings. As we started to play i saw that 2 warriors are pretty much bad. Really bad. We nearly wiped but the guard and a revive orb saved us we managed to get back on our feet.

But let me say…. three of us was carrying those two. It was not fun. Not fun at all. Especially when the last fractal was jade maw.

Yet we didn’t curse, swear, or boss them around or kick them. Maybe that’s just their gameplay and they don’t feel comfortable playing full zerk but they still suck even if they have the health (i’m still afraid to go full dagger after 2 years of playing).

Just chill and do your best, if you are carrying, feel like a superman.

petyr baelish.9675:

Also @LucosTheDutch: Since that ele was the instance owner, he probably started the lfg and according to your story you provoked him first, you guys are the ones that griefed him. At least the previous system discouraged players like you from doing kitten like that since it punished you as well. I’m not saying he was right though and he was probably as bad as you make him out to be.

Maybe you didn’t read my post carefully, or maybe I explained it poorly, but I did not provoke anyone. I said the ele started bossing people around, not me. We didn’t grief anyone and we didn’t even know he was the instance owner.

The previous system was horrible and here is why: The instance owner was not determined by who started the party or who started LFG (which was me, not him), but who entered the instance first (which was him, not me).
I was the one who started my own LFG for AC p1. The ele joined my party. However, the ele was already inside AC when he joined, while I was still in Plains of Ashford. This is the reason why he was instance owner and not me. I didn’t know it worked that way either until then.

I had every single right to kick the ele from my party that I started and everyone else in the party agreed he had to be kicked because he was being the kitten, not me. Sadly, because he started the instance before me, the game considered him to be the instance owner and therefor kicked all of us when we removed him from the party.

The ele sucked and he was a kitten, he deserved to get kicked, sadly because of the old flawed system, we all got kicked as a result. Luckily that’s no longer the case with the new system, hence the new system is vastly superior to the old one.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Since we’re sharing PUG stories, here’s another funny one:

I was doing AC p1 with terribad ele who didn’t even summon frost bows and FGSs during the burrow section. the DPS of the party was horrible and I think the only 2 people running meta builds in that instance was myself and my brother. Then after failing the burrow section for the 3rd time the ele started bossing us around. I told him he had no right to boss people around and that his DPS sucked and he needed to drop some ice bows and FGSs for us so we could take down those burrows faster. He said he couldn’t do that because he was a “healer ele” and it was “his job” to heal the party so us “zerker noobs” wouldn’t go down. Obviously after he said that I decided to vote kick him. That vote got seconded rather quickly. Sadly enough the ele turned out to be the instance owner so we all got kicked from the instance. That kinda sucked.

^
See, this is why NOT having an instance owner is a GOOD thing.

Erm, strangely enough, I have been in the same situation as you. But things went like this. Langrim would kick this ‘phiw’ ele, I seconded. A moment after we put up the LFG, this ele re-joined and kicked Langrim. Someone seconded. Then I quickly re-invited Langrim, and then we get stuck in the vicious kick-invite cycle. And know what??? It was in our own LFG (as we only kick in our instance). We could give up and leave and they could have stolen the whole instance outright. If it’s AC, no problems. But if it’s Arah or Fractals, well, it’s hard not to ruin our evening.

Well, this is why NOT having an instance owner is a HUGE PROBLEM.

I am just going to assume that you are a good player. Most people on the forums are not. Most of the folks who are saying that, in 2 years of playing with PUGs, they have never encountered such violent behaviour, probably have lower standards or luck. I can completely relate to your experiences, which is why I stopped using PUGs altogether. All my friends share this sentiment, which is convenient, since most of us will wait for each other to start the daily dungeon tour.
Bottom line: There’s nothing you can do about it. If you insist on using PUGs or have to, lower your standards.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

petyr baelish.9675:

Also @LucosTheDutch: Since that ele was the instance owner, he probably started the lfg and according to your story you provoked him first, you guys are the ones that griefed him. At least the previous system discouraged players like you from doing kitten like that since it punished you as well. I’m not saying he was right though and he was probably as bad as you make him out to be.

Maybe you didn’t read my post carefully, or maybe I explained it poorly, but I did not provoke anyone. I said the ele started bossing people around, not me. We didn’t grief anyone and we didn’t even know he was the instance owner.

The previous system was horrible and here is why: The instance owner was not determined by who started the party or who started LFG (which was me, not him), but who entered the instance first (which was him, not me).
I was the one who started my own LFG for AC p1. The ele joined my party. However, the ele was already inside AC when he joined, while I was still in Plains of Ashford. This is the reason why he was instance owner and not me. I didn’t know it worked that way either until then.

I had every single right to kick the ele from my party that I started and everyone else in the party agreed he had to be kicked because he was being the kitten, not me. Sadly, because he started the instance before me, the game considered him to be the instance owner and therefor kicked all of us when we removed him from the party.

The ele sucked and he was a kitten, he deserved to get kicked, sadly because of the old flawed system, we all got kicked as a result. Luckily that’s no longer the case with the new system, hence the new system is vastly superior to the old one.

Fair enough, in the case you just described you were right. It doesn’t mean that the current system is better though. Start an instance first, then start gathering a party.

‘The old flawed system’ didn’t encourage griefing like the current one does. It has taken a lot of drama after the september kittenup patch hit to get anet to take the griefing matter seriously. Even now we don’t know if the people that have grieved us have been punished. I think it’s highly unlikely unless you catch them on stream and make a forum post about it. And even then I’m pretty convinced it was more an act to appease us instead of them actually wanting to punish those players for what they’ve done, it should by no means be seen as a standard procedure.

Pretty cynical, I know. Then again, I have a reason to be.

Iris Ng.9845:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Since we’re sharing PUG stories, here’s another funny one:

I was doing AC p1 with terribad ele who didn’t even summon frost bows and FGSs during the burrow section. the DPS of the party was horrible and I think the only 2 people running meta builds in that instance was myself and my brother. Then after failing the burrow section for the 3rd time the ele started bossing us around. I told him he had no right to boss people around and that his DPS sucked and he needed to drop some ice bows and FGSs for us so we could take down those burrows faster. He said he couldn’t do that because he was a “healer ele” and it was “his job” to heal the party so us “zerker noobs” wouldn’t go down. Obviously after he said that I decided to vote kick him. That vote got seconded rather quickly. Sadly enough the ele turned out to be the instance owner so we all got kicked from the instance. That kinda sucked.

^
See, this is why NOT having an instance owner is a GOOD thing.

Erm, strangely enough, I have been in the same situation as you. But things went like this. Langrim would kick this ‘phiw’ ele, I seconded. A moment after we put up the LFG, this ele re-joined and kicked Langrim. Someone seconded. Then I quickly re-invited Langrim, and then we get stuck in the vicious kick-invite cycle. And know what??? It was in our own LFG (as we only kick in our instance). We could give up and leave and they could have stolen the whole instance outright. If it’s AC, no problems. But if it’s Arah or Fractals, well, it’s hard not to ruin our evening.

Well, this is why NOT having an instance owner is a HUGE PROBLEM.

Your story doesn’t really add up.

In order to kick someone, you need at least 2 people wanting that person to be kicked. If the ele was the only griefer in your party and everyone agreed that he needed to be removed, then how could he come back and start a “kick cycle”? Who was the 2nd person willing to kick you and Langrim and why would they want to kick you guys? Obviously you and Langrim must have done something wrong. I doubt you two are as innocent as you claim to be, else this “kick cycle” would never have happened.

I remember this guy; did a Fractal with him. He’s one of those guys who blames everyone else when he dies, is extremely rude, and simply annoying, barking orders like he knows what he’s doing. (You might have seen him with a Commander tag on, lol) This guy is just sad because he used to be able to say, “You can’t kick me, I started the instance.” Yep; he straight up said that.

OP, I’ll say to you now what I said to you then: I’m glad attitudes like yours are going to get what they deserve.

Anyone who reads between the lines will see that most of your “wall of shame” could only have been the result of the temper tantrums of a passive-aggressive, painfully below-average know-it-all.

Subdue.5479:

No this is not how it happens, sorry. People don’t kick you because you tried to kick someone out that everyone perceived as being a a major hindrance. The kick you out for either being that major hindrance, or for being a an annoying tool. And since we’re saying he’s a great player, that really just leaves one alternative.

No, it’s exactly how it happens. He’s not generally always the one kicking most of the time. It seems to be almost as often people kicking him. And this can easily change if he stops trying to be nice.

If the only thing people see is “Langrim requests a kick” next to a bad player, they will second it immediately knowing someone else (and not them) is the problem. Then Langrim can spare himself and everyone from his poor social skills.

I know it sucks for you to admit, but Langrim has all the leverage here. He just needs to use it and make sure not to create room for rebellion.

Hey Nokaru, I’m not sure your memory serves you right but Langrim never wears a commander tag. I doubt he even has it.

@Lucos: Usually, we pugged 2-3 slots. In one scenario, one of them was a kitten (being bad but gloat about rezzing everyone else, etc) but the other two just stayed quiet for the sake of being invisible. What baffles me the most is, even though they never participated in any verbal argument, their self-righteousness came out so strong that they would accept the kick if they think one side sounded like a jerk. Would I kick the rest of the group to defend Langrim? I could, but I would not because they did not do anything to offend me or anyone else. They just acted according to their reason.

Then, let me give you another story, quoted directly from another topic not long time ago.

On topic of kicking people at last boss, I have a story to share. Last night, I pugged with my little brother and we started with COE p2. As always, me feeling fine for whatever and my bro wanted a bit of security with “DPS only” LFG. There we had two ele (one being my bro), two warriors and me as guard. Things started to go awry when we all went down at the second Subject Alpha except for my bro and a warrior. Then I notice that the war was using mace and shield !!! As Subject Alpha was killed, the warrior started bla-blaing non stop about his tanking nomad build has saved the day while the zerker ele was down (and self-rally) non-stop. Well, we all know who scored the kill so we didn’t bother bursting his bubble. Out of frustration, my brother asked in an aggressive tone why the warrior joined us a dps only group. This warrior promptly told my bro to shut up because his ele was noob and not giving him 25 stacks of might. Good old bickering, I guess. The best part is at the Husk boss where this warrior fought with the two ele over who controls the golem. Then he started kicking the other ele not my brother. We waited for him to withdraw the initiation, but nope, no explanation, nothing. So we whooped his annoying kitten out. The other ele went boohoo whiteknight on us for kicking Mr.Tanky. Even though I tried to explain to him that I was tolerating Mr. Tanky’s fraud, I was not happy with him kicking people in my group so I booted to defend the ele, Mr. Ele insisted on painting me in cahoots with my brother as filthy elitists. As soon as I told him he could leave if he wasn’t happy, he ranted and then took off. The irony is, as soon as they were gone the rest of party three-manned Subject Alpha just fine, even faster than with a full group.

Tl; dr: Pug is weird. Not only they disrespect your lfg, do they gloat and disrespect the other members of the group. What is new is they take it personal if someone gets kicked because that person wanted to kick themselves. link

I’m not gonna try to convince you of who are victims. I just want to say that the abnormal pugs that we’ve seen are beyond reason, whether you kick them or not. Every time we pug, it’s like playing a social experiment game.