Guild Wars 2

For one simple reason: Better/Structured Dungeons.

My friend said guild wars 2 is a pretty good game, and made a lot of improvements, but the one thing that WoW has that he loves is what he called Structured Dungeons. Particularly the boss fights. He said they are not just “large hp pools” that drag on for 30 minutes.

There is technique, and design that must be done to defeat bosses other then just whacking away. Using intractable things like cannons, vehicles, and trap switches.

Now I never played wow and dont intend to, but that does sound pretty neat to me. I wish my friend would come play Gw2 with me, but he refuses until they “polish” the game he says, and create good dungeons, not just zerg rushes.

So what? Some likes GW2, some doesn’t.

Dungeons are boring though.

Orbys.4895:

For one simple reason: Better/Structured Dungeons.

My friend said guild wars 2 is a pretty good game, and made a lot of improvements, but the one thing that WoW has that he loves is what he called Structured Dungeons. Particularly the boss fights. He said they are not just “large hp pools” that drag on for 30 minutes.

There is technique, and design that must be done to defeat bosses other then just whacking away. Using intractable things like cannons, vehicles, and trap switches.

Now I never played wow and dont intend to, but that does sound pretty neat to me. I wish my friend would come play Gw2 with me, but he refuses until they “polish” the game he says, and create good dungeons, not just zerg rushes.

Well there is a way to fight every boss, most people just aren’t looking deep enough into the mechanics of the game. There is so much more groups could do to coordinate but they don’t.

There is no shame in deciding that you do not enjoy a game and would rather continue playing one that you are more familiar with.

Your friend is pretty correct about how GW2 currently stands. There are some interesting mechanics here and there, but the ArenaNet team are obviously still dealing with a new combat system. I’m pretty sure they’ll catch up with WoW in this respect eventually.

I’m still yet to encounter anything in PvE that has challenged and entertained me quite as much as raids did in WoW.

I’m confident it’ll get there though.

I think once people figure out the strats and fully grasp all their characters capabilities, and properly coordinate with groups it will basically be the same thing as WoW, only replacing the trinity with a more real-time strategy concept.

It just all new, both in terms of changing peoples mindset and perception from turret macro spamming with the occasional need to move or do something other then dps with the tank and healer there to support, to what ANet is trying to do (more control/support/dps but everyone contributes a little of everything). I am not claiming one is superior (I am a dedicated healer) just have to adjust is all.

it aint easy for groups to coordinate right now, and the game doesnt encourage that.

its an all out zerg fest on most champions.

im ok with it, because the game is more “action” than “tactic”.
but anet can definitely improve was for players to play together.
as this will be the way to make the game last.

as of now, playing together feels like playing with npcs.
nobody have the time to type things to do/plans/call outs.

i dont have a solution, but it definitely should be a point of focus for the creative gameplay designers.

If you like out gearing your content, WoW is for you.

If you like a road map to every inch of the game, then WoW is for you.

If you like PVP in which balance is not the aim of the game, then WoW is for you.

If you like standing around in the city for hours on end, then WoW is for you.

If you like spending 10K gold for things, then WoW is for you.

If you like seeing insane numbers, like critting for 108,567K on a mob that only has 300 hps, then WoW is for you.

If you like spending $15 a month for the exact same content, then WoW is for you.

Death Aggro.9602:

Malas.9425:

Orbys.4895:

For one simple reason: Better/Structured Dungeons.

My friend said guild wars 2 is a pretty good game, and made a lot of improvements, but the one thing that WoW has that he loves is what he called Structured Dungeons. Particularly the boss fights. He said they are not just “large hp pools” that drag on for 30 minutes.

There is technique, and design that must be done to defeat bosses other then just whacking away. Using intractable things like cannons, vehicles, and trap switches.

Now I never played wow and dont intend to, but that does sound pretty neat to me. I wish my friend would come play Gw2 with me, but he refuses until they “polish” the game he says, and create good dungeons, not just zerg rushes.

Well there is a way to fight every boss, most people just aren’t looking deep enough into the mechanics of the game. There is so much more groups could do to coordinate but they don’t.

Plz tell me oh wise one. And post videos and screens. But im guessing your just talking out of your kitten.

Well I can tell you in the seer path Arah EM boss fight there is a simple fight that we figured out just needed it us to stack and use condition removal AoEs and rotate them and it made the boss too easy. Also the abomination boss in Arah EM is really easy if you just stack in melee and have a tiny bit of condition removal, or a Guardian with Aegis. There is always a way you just aren’t looking.

Avatar.1923:

it aint easy for groups to coordinate right now, and the game doesnt encourage that.

its an all out zerg fest on most champions.

im ok with it, because the game is more “action” than “tactic”.
but anet can definitely improve was for players to play together.
as this will be the way to make the game last.

as of now, playing together feels like playing with npcs.
nobody have the time to type things to do/plans/call outs.

i dont have a solution, but it definitely should be a point of focus for the creative gameplay designers.

That’s true for DE’s and Champs, and is a shame as last night I was solo’ing a Champ I never had a prayer to beat but I was kiting him successfully so he was never going to kill me. In come a few people to help but I could only hope they would fight him properly as not to screw up the kiting as I really had him running around so he would never hit me. But since I couldn’t stop to type it was impossible to communicate. Maybe what they need to implement is a proximity voip client that will instantly put you in a chat with anyone flagged for a DE.

As for dungeons, this is just a learning curve and it will improve with time, but they need more people running them so they need to up the rewards (nothing spectacular but inline with the challenge).

Avatar.1923:

it aint easy for groups to coordinate right now, and the game doesnt encourage that.

its an all out zerg fest on most champions.

im ok with it, because the game is more “action” than “tactic”.
but anet can definitely improve was for players to play together.
as this will be the way to make the game last.

as of now, playing together feels like playing with npcs.
nobody have the time to type things to do/plans/call outs.

i dont have a solution, but it definitely should be a point of focus for the creative gameplay designers.

lol I dunno about that, I’ve seen some callouts during Fire Elemental in Metrica Province. I’ve even done some myself. But nobody listens. That’s a player problem, not a development problem.

Hell, a couple days ago, I said, “We need to kill off the little elementals first, that’s why we keep dying!” and the only response I got was, “Nah, they’re just gonna respawn again.” And the deaths continued.

It’s going to take a while for people to realize that you can’t just zerg everything down (and a lot of the champion/DE fights don’t do much to discourage it, either), but I’m sure we’ll get there eventually.

Actually I can attest to that, as a “vanilla” wow player back when WOW was new, Boss fights arent just about tank holding boss aggro.

Malas.9425:

Well there is a way to fight every boss, most people just aren’t looking deep enough into the mechanics of the game. There is so much more groups could do to coordinate but they don’t.

Agreed. Most boss fights do have interesting and unique mechanics. The only problem I’ve seen in dungeons so far is that it’s too easy to just cheese the boss by traveling to a way point and running back to the fight. If they took away that ability alone, people would be more forced to learn the mechanics of the fights.

souldonkey.9534:

Malas.9425:

Well there is a way to fight every boss, most people just aren’t looking deep enough into the mechanics of the game. There is so much more groups could do to coordinate but they don’t.

Agreed. Most boss fights do have interesting and unique mechanics. The only problem I’ve seen in dungeons so far is that it’s too easy to just cheese the boss by traveling to a way point and running back to the fight. If they took away that ability alone, people would be more forced to learn the mechanics of the fights.

True, but I think without that ability more people who just give up. I think the Waypoint zerg was implemented to give people a way of finishing a boss so they don’t get stuck and give up completely. Let them get thru the run and hope they come back to learn the strat sort of design philosophy.

souldonkey.9534:

Malas.9425:

Well there is a way to fight every boss, most people just aren’t looking deep enough into the mechanics of the game. There is so much more groups could do to coordinate but they don’t.

Agreed. Most boss fights do have interesting and unique mechanics. The only problem I’ve seen in dungeons so far is that it’s too easy to just cheese the boss by traveling to a way point and running back to the fight. If they took away that ability alone, people would be more forced to learn the mechanics of the fights.

To be quite honest I think it is in there for the casual players or people who would super rage at the game because they simply just couldn’t beat a dungeon. I wish I could find people willingly to experiment in dungeons.

“Man, these other guys are hurting me a lot, but I’m going to swing at this guy in the plate armor instead because he’s making fun of me, even though all the damage I do is getting fixed by that guy over there in the robe.”

Clearly better structure. XD

“wow that ranged guy is a smarmy git, dealing tons of damage and avoiding all my damage I think i’ll one shot anything stupid enough to be in melee range with my horribly overpowered badly tuned, under telegraphed skill then chase him down and one shot him, oh wait no, i’ve got a massive pbaoe for that and possibly the power to summon adds along with a massively padded hp pool”

the current system is no better logically

I personly don’t consider the dungones or any kind of late game done at this point. A-net rushed the end of the game at a horrible speed ( I blam Ncsoft) and like 80% of what is supposed to be late game is buggy.

To Structured Dungeons. Why did he come here then in first place? A-net did a pretty clear statment it will be chaotic and you will need to be awar what you do and it is pretty much what it is. If he expected that there will be a tank and heal after all he was wrong.

Avatar.1923:

it aint easy for groups to coordinate right now, and the game doesnt encourage that.

its an all out zerg fest on most champions.

im ok with it, because the game is more “action” than “tactic”.
but anet can definitely improve was for players to play together.
as this will be the way to make the game last.

as of now, playing together feels like playing with npcs.
nobody have the time to type things to do/plans/call outs.

i dont have a solution, but it definitely should be a point of focus for the creative gameplay designers.

For DEs, you really can’t expect 50+ people to work together.
It was the same as RIFt’s world bosses too, but MORE people zerging.

“Wow, I’m a monstruous creature, three times your size or just a magical being of pure power. Thanks the Gods it actually serves me a purpose and can’t be called a whimpy like my cousins from a different game. I heard there are some even bigger dudes out there but somehow they can’t even dent some tiny little sentient beings’ life with their giant claws or spells of mass destruction. And even when they can, someone just instantaneously fix them up… I feel sorry for them! Good thing I passed the admission test for a Guild Wars 2 dungeon boss!”

=)

as a ex wow raider i was not remotely challenged by any of the dungeons .

but i can expect bosses to have stronger mechanics.

imagine a 3d battleground, with ledges and bridges and staircase, and a boss that can fly (and actually does fly once in a while, shoot some fireballs, then dive on a player).

its a quesition of battleground/ability mix, i think.

Malas.9425:

souldonkey.9534:

Malas.9425:

Well there is a way to fight every boss, most people just aren’t looking deep enough into the mechanics of the game. There is so much more groups could do to coordinate but they don’t.

Agreed. Most boss fights do have interesting and unique mechanics. The only problem I’ve seen in dungeons so far is that it’s too easy to just cheese the boss by traveling to a way point and running back to the fight. If they took away that ability alone, people would be more forced to learn the mechanics of the fights.

To be quite honest I think it is in there for the casual players or people who would super rage at the game because they simply just couldn’t beat a dungeon. I wish I could find people willingly to experiment in dungeons.

I’m a casual player. I really don’t mind them in story mode because, as someone else said, if nothing else they provide less skilled players a means to be able to beat the boss. I personally like to challenge myself and explorable dungeons seem perfect for that. I haven’t gotten a chance to do any of these yet, but I’m assuming the way point cheesing is still there as well. That’s really the only place I think it should be taken out.

Good for your buddy, tell him to enjoy his Panda’s.

As for me, I’m sticking with this game. I far prefer it, and love that I don’t have to throw $15/month at it to sit and wait on the dungeon finder….

Bsquared.3421:

Good for your buddy, tell him to enjoy his Panda’s.

As for me, I’m sticking with this game. I far prefer it, and love that I don’t have to throw $15/month at it to sit and wait on the dungeon finder….

Bsquared.3421:

sit and wait on the dungeon finder….

There is your problem.
PuGs are never good.

dchsknight.3042:

You should go with him! You might enjoy it more. Threads like this have no place in our forums. So please don’t post trash like this insulting our game.

Why are you pushing him away? He says he enjoys this game and wishes his friends would return. Lets grow our community, not kick them to the curb for having the audacity to have friends who play other MMO’s and not this one.

There is your problem.
PuGs are never good.

I personally haven’t played WoW in years, literally. Stopped prior to WotLK when level cap was 70. I basically stopped because I hated throwing away $15/month to re-level (after every $60 expansion) and re-gear (continuous and non-stop).

The game was awesome in Vanilla (and even TBC days), Tarren Mill vs. Southshore was so much fun and cut my teeth on MMO’s, it’s a big reason I love the genre. But the nonstop gear treadmill gets old after awhile. I hated having the feeling of wasted time/money simply because I went on vacation for two weeks and didn’t play, or that I HAD to play to keep up with arena seasons, etc., ad infinitum.

GW2 and WOW is like BF3 and COD. Similar, but different enough to justify playing either one, or both, since they offer different experiences.

My friends are going to WoW for the pandas O.o

I agree with his complaint that the bosses have annoyingly large HP pools, but i dont see why he would pick a game of choice based on dungeons.. they are fun for about.. 1 run.

Freelancer.4802:

I agree with his complaint that the bosses have annoyingly large HP pools, but i dont see why he would pick a game of choice based on dungeons.. they are fun for about.. 1 run.

Large scale raids are fun. 5 mans are boring, unfortunately you have to run the 5 mans before people will let you into the large raids.

Wow dungeons are too much like paint by numbers. To finish one you just have to move and press the butoons when your add on tells you or the whole party wipes.

pmiles.3489:

If you like out gearing your content, WoW is for you.

If you like a road map to every inch of the game, then WoW is for you.

If you like PVP in which balance is not the aim of the game, then WoW is for you.

If you like standing around in the city for hours on end, then WoW is for you.

If you like spending 10K gold for things, then WoW is for you.

If you like seeing insane numbers, like critting for 108,567K on a mob that only has 300 hps, then WoW is for you.

If you like spending $15 a month for the exact same content, then WoW is for you.

What? For the most part the experience is how you make it for youself, just like in any MMO. If someone chooses those things then sure, but there are so many ways you can play it. It’s just so many refuses to see only that one way, which is lvl 1-(maxlvl-1) content don’t exist and it’s just a equipment race then.

Funnily I did go back to WoW today myself. I played maybe for an hour, did some quests, crafting and explored areas I hadn’t seen before. I had fun. Now I’m going to log in here and I’m pretty sure I’m going to have equally fun doing relatively same things.

I agree with your friend about dungeons, I have only played one and it was AC very hard imo. I would say it was not balanced at all and the loot was trash for that difficultly, I did not feel rewarded for doing anything in dungeons.

I played WoW for 8 years I also played SWTOR and DC Universe. From my experience particularly in WoW GW2 has nothing compared to the scale or the fun that that game had for dungeons.

Dungeons in WoW I feel are not only much better balanced but it does take using your ability’s seriously to actually progress and finish the dungeon as well as discovering the bosses rotations and mechanics of each phase.

I think partially because of the holy trinity side of things that made WoW work very well for dungeon mechanics, which I never really disliked. The part I disliked about WoW now days is how it’s still all rotation based mashing of skills and not based solely on your position, awareness and timing for the combat as well as the liner questing which I fund dull. A side from those Key elements the holy trinity based classes lend themselves very well for better dungeon mechanics as every class has a role and is required to do something important that is relevant to the successful completion of the dungeon. WoW Still has moments of timing and positioning but it’s not like in GW2 combat where it is your ability to notice what is going on around you and the little details about the fights.

Let me just be clear that I am not trashing this game aside from some of the other minor annoyances that I hope are improved over time this game blows WoW completely away it gave someone like me who was literally refusing to play MMO’s until something non template design " or Same old Same old different universe" came along that made me care about questing and actually want to run around and level up and enjoy that process. It’s not a perfect system as we all need to remember that this game is doing something that is not very well explored yet for this industry genre but it’s a good step towards the traditional mmo style being something that is no longer accepted by the gaming community as a unique title worth paying for.

Also Sub based games are slowly starting to die in fact I would probably be correct in saying that SWTOR and WoW are the last of the SUB breed of mmo, and I think many others would also agree, as much as I dislike the micro transaction model because of the foul taste that pay to win has left all over my tongue it is inevitably the way WoW and SWTOR will end up going once the sub numbers fall below a certain threshold to support the companies who have backed the title long term. Back on topic the dynamic world bosses are much more rewarding and fun while still a pretty much zerg rush they at least reward me for trying harder than others and give me decent loot.

If dungeons in this game are to be praised we are going to need to start seeing content that has more depth in the instances, something along the lines of you start out doing an event that is similar to the heart missions but this event leads you through the dungeon where you eventually find a boss or a couple bosses along the way which all have certain weakness’s and certain ways of fighting them that will work a lot better than other ways, for example a boss that could be immune to most magic relying on melee for instance or your classes melee ability to effectively take down will work best during phase 1 but then phase 2 kicks in and this boss has learned what ability’s and combos you are using on it and tries to mix its style up to make it harder for you to keep using the same rotations and style of play forcing you to find cover and dodge its attacks more often as the fight progresses.

I think ArenaNet would need to tread very carefully while setting these types of boss fights up because what I don’t want to see in this game is a set in stone method for taking the boss down and every other method fails.

I would like the boss to be slightly dynamic like learn to avoid the ability’s that your group is using most often against it requiring you and your group to try new things and new combo’s and mix up the fight frequently to actually defeat the boss while still keeping an identifiable pattern of things to that you can time to for attacks and dodge, while at the same time making use of the environment for cover and things like that.

A good example would be if the boss started out as a land based spank that quickly phased into water based duck in and out of cover while avoiding the boss that picks players at random to target for a set amount of time and then targets another player making the whole thing dynamic.

If you got the end of this congratulations I know it was a bit of an essay but I feel its summarizes best what the OP is wondering as well as a few other things I had to get off my chest about the system currently in place they call dungeons.

Ushin.8406:

Wow dungeons are too much like paint by numbers. To finish one you just have to move and press the butoons when your add on tells you or the whole party wipes.

Yeah and i bet you did the Ulduar hardmodes.

The moment your friend said anything about WoW, you should have laughed and dicredited him.

All I heard was “World of Warcrafts dungeons are super easy and reward you with tons of epixx lewts. Guild War2 Dungeons are hard, and you can’t just faceroll everything. Also, WTH no +10000 stats on the gear?! Seriously?! Its just for Vanity?! WTF!!”

Failsociety.4569:

The moment your friend said anything about WoW, you should have laughed and dicredited him.

All I heard was “World of Warcrafts dungeons are super easy and reward you with tons of epixx lewts. Guild War2 Dungeons are hard, and you can’t just faceroll everything. Also, WTH no +10000 stats on the gear?! Seriously?! Its just for Vanity?! WTF!!”

You should get your hearing checked, or get a pair of reading glasses. You are just using your own already set opinion about it and commented just to express that as a fact. It’s really sad when responses drag down to this level.

berries.7016:

Failsociety.4569:

The moment your friend said anything about WoW, you should have laughed and dicredited him.

All I heard was “World of Warcrafts dungeons are super easy and reward you with tons of epixx lewts. Guild War2 Dungeons are hard, and you can’t just faceroll everything. Also, WTH no +10000 stats on the gear?! Seriously?! Its just for Vanity?! WTF!!”

You should get your hearing checked, or get a pair of reading glasses. You are just using your own already set opinion about it and commented just to express that as a fact. It’s really sad when responses drag down to this level.

Sad as it might be, it is no more sad then comparing what it should be to a game that is totally different in mindset. Forgive me if my “Reading Glasses” are fogged up after reading so much garbage around those same lines I posted. His friend supposedly left, because Guild Wars Dungeons aren’t as fun and streamlined as World of Warcrafts. Who cares, I think they are fun. Hell in fact I actually have to keep my eyes open to succeed.
And Technique? Really? You know the hardest part about raiding is finding 10-25 competent people that understand what it means to get the kitten out of the fire? Learning same routined scripted fights?

Dungeons in WoW are a joke. Loot hallways is a more apt description.
Not even a remote chance of dying unless you’re afk.

Bah. I’ve played WoW for years and Wow’s dungeons struggle from the same thing these do. After playing the same content 50 times, it’s boring. I don’t care what your game looks like.

Wow’s boss fights may be more “structured,” but they’re also extremely basic. 99% of them are facerolls, and the rest have strats so basic a toddler could follow along.

You see basically the same things in the GW2 dungeons.

WoW’s encounters are more complicated but also less accessible. I think GW2 is trading difficulty for accessibility, for all things not just dungeons.

I only play GW2 for sPvP and WvW, so in earnest I can’t really offer much about the PvE.

Failsociety.4569:

Sad as it might be, it is no more sad then comparing what it should be to a game that is totally different in mindset. Forgive me if my “Reading Glasses” are fogged up after reading so much garbage around those same lines I posted. His friend supposedly left, because Guild Wars Dungeons aren’t as fun and streamlined as World of Warcrafts. Who cares, I think they are fun. Hell in fact I actually have to keep my eyes open to succeed.
And Technique? Really? You know the hardest part about raiding is finding 10-25 competent people that understand what it means to get the kitten out of the fire? Learning same routined scripted fights?

The mindset comes from each person individually and I could bet on it varies some with each person in different games. I don’t raid in WoW so I don’t know how they are, it interests me as much as doing explorables here which is practically none. But I am enjoying the dungeons whole lot more in WoW than here. After enduring trough the stories and as much as I’d like to go do them again for fun, it’s just not fun there for me.

Woops double post. With first reply I got an error but I guess it came trough after all.

i havent done dungeon in GW2 yet.

but, loot aside, not thinking about “reward” whatsoever.

speaking strictly “gameplay”; are they fun ? i mean…. is it like a good action sequence that keeps you edgy ?

I agree. There are people who will always like or are accustomed to the structured, linear dungeons. It’s hard for some to understand that GW2 dungeons are not the same since it doesn’t have the trinity.

I fear that my SO will be back to WoW, but I won’t. I don’t like the trinity, and I don’t like dungeons — at all. I was over that 2 years ago. I’m glad GW2 is out and that it shies away from the gear treadmill inherent in dungeons.

I slightly agree with him, BUT I played WoW when it first released and the dungeons were not nothing special then. They’ve had like 8 years or tweaking and building… this game has been out for a month. It’s an MMO… it will develop over time, and they’re already addressing the complaints about the dungeons and end game.. just give it some time.

I agree with your friend. I hate the dungeons in gw2, I haven’t found the ones I have done to be very engaging or fun, it is “dodge this one ability if you can figure out which it is before you die and then keep zerging” there is no proper visual or audible queues, and if there is it is near impossible to see because your spells and abilities make the boss invisible.

At least in wow and Rift I loved their dungeons and raids, they were challenging and they involved a lot more than just dodge&kill, the bosses were more fun and had a lot more character in them.

There is no way I can run the GW2 instances any more, they are more punishing than rewarding (repair costs I end up walking out with less than I walked in with, making it NOT fun at all) and the abuse I receive because I could not figure something out from the elitist “look at me its so easy” players is extremely offputting (I never copped this type or harrassment or abuse from better players in Wow or Rift), even worse is it looks like you do need a trinity of particular classes in order to do a dungeon, so it completely rules out being able to play with my friends because 2 of us share the same class.

I am all for challenging and fun, but the dungeons are not challenging, they are annoying and ridiculous and in turn they are definitely not fun. I could run most wow instances repetitively because I enjoyed them, they were engaging and fun, there is no way I am even inclined to do another GW2 instance because they make me angry.

a Dungeon in GW2 is the same as it was in GW1 it’s another Area it’s just full of special mobs
At the heart of everything GW2 is the second book of GW
Currently we’re playing in Ch 1 when they expand it’ll be Ch 2 much like when Nightfall hit GW

Yeah, 4 of my friends that I came to GW2 with already left after this update.
They were already upset with the crafting update that put all the cooking mats in the supply bags that they used to get jute scraps, totems, etc.
Which caused prices on materials to shoot up.
Then the dungeon update just really called it for them.
:|

Yeah the whole Cooking is elite thing is kitten garbage
If you wanted it elite you make the LAST 100 lvls Elite
The ingredients in the last 100 lvls should be rare and hard to find to craft some seriously crazy foodstuffs for buffs but All of cooking being elite?……Someone really went insane on that deal

WoW was fun when I was leveling, seeing the zones, doing the quests, and most of all not having to care about having a super ideal trait line. Of course this was before WoW decided that only their endgame should matter and trivialized everything below level 80.

Once I got to endgame it was all BiS gear, one set of ideal traits for a spec (what? you are a cat druid that wants to be able to get 3% more crit instead of having Blood in the water? Noob GTFO!)

I like that in GW2 you are not just focusing one or two stats all the time. There are no completely irrelevant stats. In wow a cat druid could be stacking all kinds of intelligence, and all it does is mean that they get beat down by somebody three quarters their level because intelligence is completely meaningless to that spec.

While in GW2 a warrior can still use healing, a mesmer can still use toughness, a ranger still needs power. The stats don’t arbitrarily change what they do based on what class you are.

If I need to temporarily have dungeons that don’t quite have as complicated boss fights to enjoy all stats being meaningful, so be it.