Guild Wars 2

I’m posting this as a topic because I have mentioned it kind of a lot lately and hope that at least a decent portion of people that have the wrong idea about the ease/difficulty of these two classes get a chance to read it.

Ok so first of all I’ve solod a lot with both of these two classes.

Something I’ve read people say tons is how warrior is ezmode, how OP it is, etc. I’ve also read people saying that soloing on ele is insanely hard. I’ll use Lupi as a scapegoat for solo ease/difficulty for my comparison between them because of his popularity.

First of all, if all you’re interested in doing is just getting the boss killed, then yeah… warrior would be easiest and most ideal because of the fact that it’s just way more forgiving and easier to play at mediocre efficiency. Phase 1 you can get kicked and not die in 1 hit, phase 2 you can get hit by up to 2 aoes in phase 2 without a death, phase 3 you can nearly tank a life suck (though it would be kind of ret***ed to do so), etc. On an ele you die in 1 kick, 3 swarm hits from full hp, 2 aoe projectiles from phase 2, and if you tank any of his phase 3 attacks you’ll die before he’s done channeling them.

But if you’re trying to play at a higher level, and by that I mean attempting to be more microefficient and optimize your DPS via rotations, food, traits, and ultimately RNG as much as you feasibly can, then warrior is by far the biggest pain in the a** between these two classes.

Hell, if anything staff ele is literally faceroll. You can actually get by with no dodges in phase 1 aside from his infection attack and it’ll be twice as fast as a warrior’s phase 1. Phase 2 it’s only slightly slower due to not starting on 25 might, but slightly more of a pain on the aoe attacks because you don’t have blocks — you have to dodge away and use burning retreat back into him. This, along with the phase 2-3 transition, are literally the only two things in the entire fight you need to worry about with an ele unless he spawns too many swarms in phase 1 so that you can’t use ice bow/meteor shower. On a warrior, you need to camp GS as much as possible otherwise your DPS just tanks. If you have to swap, it’s either because you wasted a dodge, or you got kind of unfortunate with the RNG.

This is where I will say something that I suppose might be a different opinion than what most might say. Grinding for good RNG on a warrior is way more annoying to me than on ele.

An ele has so much better DPS than a warrior that there’s less opportunity for bad luck to surface, because the fight is so much quicker. For Lupicus in particular, you basically fail if Lupicus did his big aoe attack (liftoff) in phase 3 more than 5 times. I remember Dub telling me long ago this very same thing when he competed for the best warrior time at Lupi. That attack in particular wastes so much time. Not only does your might tank during it, but you’re dealing essentially no damage for over 6-8 seconds. You have to re-build up your might to get to where you were before, so in effect this attack wastes way over 10 seconds at least every time he does it.

Since warriors have reckless dodge, not a whole lot of time is wasted on his other attacks unless you need to break out of 100b to evade. The damage coefficient of reckless dodge is pretty decent (0.6-0.9 according to wiki) which puts it in between the damage of the first two hits of a GS autoattack (0.7) and the third (0.9).

Now, an ele on the other hand doesn’t have to bring anything defensive in a speed solo other than the trait Arcana II. In casual kills in pug groups I’ll normally bring arcane shield instead of glyph of storms/fire signet because it’s annoying how someone always manages to cause a bubble in phase 3, but on the occasion I’m soloing him on my own time it’s not needed at all. As I said before, staff is literally faceroll and it’s the most efficient weapon to solo him with. D/F is still faster than warrior (on wall, at least), but it’s less forgiving and less DPS than staff is so I honestly don’t see much of a point in using it for solos anymore. It used to be good, but then Arenanet unjustifiably ruined the burning speed skill (fire #3) and now it’s kind of not worth using anymore imo. Every single opportunity that you can bring it for, staff is better solo DPS than anything else for an ele.

I’m rambling a lot right now and my post is beginning to look less and less structured as I read it. These are the only two classes that I have a lot of firsthand experience with but that may change as time progresses.

Anyways, that’s all I really wanted to say…

tl;dr – warriors are easier to simply get a solo kill with if just killing a boss is all you care about, but if you strive to optimize time, it’s not so much the case and other classes often have it easier.

Well I agree, staff is easy-mode on Lupicus: it is essentially a ranged boss.

But then try soloing more “dynamic” bosses like the archdiviner or mossman, then D/F is king. D/F is actually super funny on archdiviner and I advise you to try this next: either do it the hardcore way, or use movement impairing skills (+GoEP) to keep him at bay, lots of fun.

By the way, it is likely that you would actually do more damage to Lupicus on D/F by not fighting him against the wall. This is because he is a large target (one of the few that take multiple hits from flamewall) and using BS to go past him lays more fire fields under him than if you stop half way by hitting a wall.

Offwall would still be faster with staff if you were able to camp fire for as much as possible, but I agree things get hairier there… only because of the rapid fire attack.

I have to disagree with you about mossman though. I got him to 40% and wiped with staff not too long ago and it’s much easier and faster than with D/F (at least with my experience), though I only tried for about an hour at most.

One thing to mention about D/F vs Staff is that a solo with D/F just looks so much more awesome. It just so happens that the option that allows you to range on ele is better DPS, which kinda sucks imo.

Yeah I never tired staff on Mossman, but you could easily be correct. But then … Archdiviner still remains ^^

The day that mobs MOVE, things will be in order.

And by order I mean D/F will prevail, as it should be, because indeed it looks so bloody awesome!!

(When the rotation is performed correctly)

Hue hue

Yeah hail D/F!

Reason it’s kind of bad for mossman is because if you’re in close range, you have to guess/assume when he’s about to do his dagger throw in order to evade it. It hits roughly 9k damage which is almost the entire health pool for an ele, so you have less opportunity to yolo than you do with a warrior.

If you’re keeping a relatively decent distance from him, you have more of an opportunity to react. It’s similar to that of say… the autoattack from mage crusher in Arah P3. If you’re in close range you can’t dodge the autoattacks as a reaction, only by anticipating them. It’s just that in the case of mossman (on 50), you nearly get 1-shot from max HP xD

Interesting read Miku.

I will say I don’t think Staff should change, it is weird having a range weapon be top dog in DPS but without it where would staff be used? If they changed that it’d simply remove an option. I think D/F and S/F have nice niches currently. S/F for might stacking optimization for group play. D/F for the flexibility and utility always at your fingertips (S/F you’d be dropping your LH to get your Swirling Winds for example). And, Staff for max DPS.

Yeah I know Jerus, you’re right. It just feels wrong for ranged weapons to have highest DPS that’s all ;P

I have said it before and I will say it again lava font with persisting flames is just broken. The damage isn’t overpowered by a pvp standpoint since no one stands in a lava font that long, except npc’s…

If they could front load the damage while lowering the total amount some how that would be excellent. That way it could actually be good damage against real people while not as brokenly overpowered against npc’s.

This would require an overhaul to the skill and/or the trait, and I really am not sure the best way to go about it.

You take the problem the wrong way: the issue does not arise from the skill itself. If anything, it is much wiser to keep skills unified between PvP and PvE. In fact, the problem is caused exactly by a split between those two game modes: targets move in PvP while they remain static in PvE.

I will never say this enough: make mobs move.

I am willing to stop complaining for a year if needs be, hell I would even support the devs, if Anet would just ensure me that they are actually working on such a meaningful change as this.

Didn’t they do that on some bosses but we just figured out how to manipulate the AI to get them to stay put? Kholar moves, but we pin him in a corner. Hunter moves but only if you target him.

Not saying they can’t do better, just saying they did make an attempt.

It’s strange to me that they’ve drawn this imaginary line between what they will and won’t separate. PvP builds and gear are separate but the skill balancing is not.

I am surprised they didn’t take a page form GW1’s PvP and have separate PvE/PvP skills. This could open the door to solving a lot of the hot issues debated by many players. For instance, I read a pretty good post on here and agreed with all the points regarding the issues Necros face in PvE but a lot of changes would break them in PvP.

Anyways, hopefully they decide to make this change later. I know they want to be taken seriously in the ESports scene but GW2 is very different from LoL in gameplay and in community.

Jerus.4350:

Didn’t they do that on some bosses but we just figured out how to manipulate the AI to get them to stay put? Kholar moves, but we pin him in a corner. Hunter moves but only if you target him.

Not saying they can’t do better, just saying they did make an attempt.

Somewhat but it seems to me that enemies don’t move and attack at the same time. I notice that when enemies are attacking they are stationary and they need to stop moving to attack. Not sure it’s true or anything but it’s something I see.

Jerus.4350:

Didn’t they do that on some bosses but we just figured out how to manipulate the AI to get them to stay put? Kholar moves, but we pin him in a corner. Hunter moves but only if you target him.

Not saying they can’t do better, just saying they did make an attempt.

Aetherblade Grenadiers move away A LOT when meleed xD

I can only party agree here, miku.
What I agree on is that warrior is indeed the easiest choice if you want to get it done and ele if you’re looking for a good time. However, when going for a record (like close to it’s limits) it stops really mattering what profession you are. While the ele has less chances of rng fails in his solos (like too many aoe leeches) compared to the warrior (who will get some anyway, mostlikely), even kicks or swipes to unfortunate times used to completely kill your ele record, while they did not really matter for a warrior.
After all, getting records isn’t really hard. It’s mostly hoping for the right rng. Good prediction and execution do obviously matter, but at best help to get the record faster.
One day, I’d try 8 hours for a lupicus solo and get hit (or even killed) by p2 aoe’s after three evades. Maybe 5 minutes of those would have failed execution wise and an hour rng wise. Then, the next day I try again, do the exact same thing and have the record within one or two attempts, third day getting screwed over and over by too many attacks in phase 3.

Tl;dr: warrior are often ezmode for just getting it done, eles have it easier staying concentrated (but errors get you killed and you are forced to restack) but for pushing something to it’s limits, it doesn’t matter.

Perfect example is the current thief lupicus record. Execution wise, it wasn’t even close to as good as the old, it actually was quite bad while the old one was good until p3. But rng gets this and gives a better time for worse execution. Gotta love and hate it.

Warrior – hockey player

Ele – Figure skater

Necro – fat guy in a half shirt on roller blades.

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Yeah I never tired staff on Mossman, but you could easily be correct. But then … Archdiviner still remains ^^

The day that mobs MOVE, things will be in order.

And by order I mean D/F will prevail, as it should be, because indeed it looks so bloody awesome!!

(When the rotation is performed correctly)

but, but, I like camping air! It does the dmges

Embrace The Bold.7619:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Yeah I never tired staff on Mossman, but you could easily be correct. But then … Archdiviner still remains ^^

The day that mobs MOVE, things will be in order.

And by order I mean D/F will prevail, as it should be, because indeed it looks so bloody awesome!!

(When the rotation is performed correctly)

but, but, I like camping air! It does the dmges

Yes but what does the damage is switching to air often, and landing the hard-hitting non-air skills while in air
From what I have seen, most people use the rotation explained by Keyz. It is a good and simple one. But the “original” rotation is quite stronger, although more difficult to perform. Also, it really hurts me to see people using firewall on small targets… it’s a dps drop.
http://dulfy.net/2014/07/11/gw2-elementalist-pve-class-guide-by-haviz-and-zelyhn/#Dagger_Builds

So you just use Burning Speed for the fire field on small targets?

Jerus.4350:

So you just use Burning Speed for the fire field on small targets?

Yep, that is the idea. The field lasts just long enough to perform the might combos if you do the rotation correctly.

Flamewall starts being worth it when the target can three ticks per second, so buildings or lupicus. [edit: NOT lupicus, it seems]

If you ware fighting a boss against a wall, make sure to cast BS with a small angle, not perfectly perpendicular to the wall, so that it does stack some patches. On a lot of bosses you can have two to three ticks thanks to that (far from the 5 we used to have before but heh).

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Embrace The Bold.7619:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

Yeah I never tired staff on Mossman, but you could easily be correct. But then … Archdiviner still remains ^^

The day that mobs MOVE, things will be in order.

And by order I mean D/F will prevail, as it should be, because indeed it looks so bloody awesome!!

(When the rotation is performed correctly)

but, but, I like camping air! It does the dmges

Yes but what does the damage is switching to air often, and landing the hard-hitting non-air skills while in air
From what I have seen, most people use the rotation explained by Keyz. It is a good and simple one. But the “original” rotation is quite stronger, although more difficult to perform. Also, it really hurts me to see people using firewall on small targets… it’s a dps drop.
http://dulfy.net/2014/07/11/gw2-elementalist-pve-class-guide-by-haviz-and-zelyhn/#Dagger_Builds

I know I have a friend who asks why I go off air at lupi in p3 he thinks I waste my energy sigil (which I dont lol).

Actually as we are talking now I remembered one thing about flamewall: if I am not mistaken it is actually just one fire patch, not multiple patches like burning speed. Therefore it can only tick once per target, unless it has a special hitbox. Iris is doing some checking for me right now (no way that I would reinstall the game for that :p), so thanks to her kind help I can confirm that in a second, hang on …

Ok thanks to Iris I can confirm this: flamewall is indeed one single fire patch, and therefore it is a big dps loss to cast it on any targets that does not have a special hitbox (buildings). So I was right to write this:
http://dulfy.net/2014/07/11/gw2-elementalist-pve-class-guide-by-haviz-and-zelyhn/#Focus
Also it seems Lupicus only takes one tick too.
And now please people, don’t use flamewall

Note: Iris confirmed that it is very easy to have at least 2 BS ticks per second on medium targets even without wall, thanks Iris <3

Is it perhaps still worth it while soloing to ensure you maintain perma burning for the damage modifier?

Not sure if you get enough burning from other sources to make it redundant.

Well, my initial reaction to that rotation was “harumph! i like flamewall, this can’t be right..” But, I went and tried it on bugged belka for funzies. Normally it’s pretty tight for me to get her down before the second ele dies. So I went in, was doing the rotation, focusing on making sure everything was cast in air as much as possible, getting the timing right…I look at big rocky’s health, its like 75%, belka is at like 10%. I haven’t even summoned little rocky yet. “?? wtf??” Sooo yeah I’m on my way to try off wall lupi with it. o_o

It surprises me that even evolved into a debate.

ArthurDent.9538:

Is it perhaps still worth it while soloing to ensure you maintain perma burning for the damage modifier?

Not sure if you get enough burning from other sources to make it redundant.

Burning speed + burning precision should be enough.

This whole flamewall thing should have never happened. It has been going on for too long just because of a simple mistake done by Keyz, and I am saying this with the utmost respect for her. She thought that flamewall’s coefficient is 0.3 while it has always been 0.1, therefore the total damage this skill deals over ten seconds is three times lower than she thought. She designed her rotations with this in mind, and so they have always been suboptimal. I have showed this to her many times but she never acted upon it, and now she seems to be inactive. The original D/F rotations exposed in my guides are stronger in terms of both might stacking and DPS.

Either way I still don’t find myself using D/F as often anymore because it’s just so lame that they nerfed burning speed so hard :/

Staff so much better damage…

I leveled up using staff spamming 1 and 2.

It is the more boring weapon in the world. There is barely any theorycrafting involved, no clever gameplay. There is no way I am ever going back to using staff.

Anet please make mobs mooooooooove!

Mobs do move though

If you made then run away constantly then warriors would be even more drastically nerfed because of hundred blades. While it would overall be a positive change to have better AI, it’s depressing to imagine. ._.

I’m uploading a video of staff vs a moving boss now. I’ll link it once it finishes and maybe you’ll change your mind about staff relying on targets staying still. :P And I didn’t use chill either.

Purple Miku.7032:

Mobs do move though

If you made then run away constantly then warriors would be even more drastically nerfed because of hundred blades. While it would overall be a positive change to have better AI, it’s depressing to imagine. ._.

Warriors worse off? … That is … actually … my dream.

It’s high time that the highest passive survivability in the game was compensated. Let’s not forget that warriors have 304 (armor) + 757 (vitality) = 1061 worth of stats more than elementalists! That is like having one full ascended equipement major stats bonus!

Far from depressing, making mobs able to move while attacking would be fantastic

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

ArthurDent.9538:

Is it perhaps still worth it while soloing to ensure you maintain perma burning for the damage modifier?

Not sure if you get enough burning from other sources to make it redundant.

Burning speed + burning precision should be enough.

This whole flamewall thing should have never happened. It has been going on for too long just because of a simple mistake done by Keyz, and I am saying this with the utmost respect for her. She thought that flamewall’s coefficient is 0.3 while it has always been 0.1, therefore the total damage this skill deals over ten seconds is three times lower than she thought. She designed her rotations with this in mind, and so they have always been suboptimal. I have showed this to her many times but she never acted upon it, and now she seems to be inactive. The original D/F rotations exposed in my guides are stronger in terms of both might stacking and DPS.

I don’t appreciate your misrepresentation of me. I’ve used a coefficient of 0.1 per tick for flamewall in my calcs for a very, very long time even if the publicly available academic resources weren’t kept up to date with my calculator’s backend. Even in my guide I mention three rotations for D/F and mention that a non-FW rotation is stronger for might stacking and slightly stronger in terms of DPS.

DEKeyzToChaos.7381:

Zelyhn Lekovitch.2867:

ArthurDent.9538:

Is it perhaps still worth it while soloing to ensure you maintain perma burning for the damage modifier?

Not sure if you get enough burning from other sources to make it redundant.

Burning speed + burning precision should be enough.

This whole flamewall thing should have never happened. It has been going on for too long just because of a simple mistake done by Keyz, and I am saying this with the utmost respect for her. She thought that flamewall’s coefficient is 0.3 while it has always been 0.1, therefore the total damage this skill deals over ten seconds is three times lower than she thought. She designed her rotations with this in mind, and so they have always been suboptimal. I have showed this to her many times but she never acted upon it, and now she seems to be inactive. The original D/F rotations exposed in my guides are stronger in terms of both might stacking and DPS.

I don’t appreciate your misrepresentation of me. I’ve used a coefficient of 0.1 per tick for flamewall in my calcs for a very, very long time even if the publicly available academic resources weren’t kept up to date with my calculator’s backend. Even in my guide I mention three rotations for D/F and mention that a non-FW rotation is stronger for might stacking and slightly stronger in terms of DPS.

No intentional misinterpretation Keyz, I assure you! In your guide you do mention that the no-FW rotation is stronger for might stacking, but unless I am mistaken there is no mention of its higher DPS output. For this reason I assumed that you considered the FW rotation more damaging because of the hypothetical 0.3 coefficient of FW. This assumption was only reinforced by not seeing the correct coefficient on the academic resources that you kindly provide for the community. I guess the fact that we did not talk in a long time helped nurture this interpretation, but it’s good to see you are still active