Guild Wars 2

Hello readers, I’m a player that was with gw2 since launch and I think this is a game with huge potentional.

The only problem at the moment is actually… the old dungeons… Here are some of the problems I experience in them and ways I would fix them ( suggestions ). Don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate on the dungeons, i loved them once.
It’s just that compared to the new content that arenanet is putting out is really showing the flaws in the older content. And worst of all, it is putting new players off. If they see this kind of playstyle when they reach lvl 80 for the first time they just got used to the great combat system this game has, and then it all goes through a grinder and ends up like this:

Stacking:

I’m quite sure you’ve all been there. you look at the group finder to do a AC run, but only see a speed run. You’ve heard of those, they skip mobs and do the dungeon as fast as possible. Seems like a challenge right?

Wrong! Speedruns at the moment are a horrifying experience. I entered AC, we were doing path 2 and 3. First boss is the huge spider. Just dodge all the circles and kill her right? nope, you get to stand on top of each other behind a corner and the spider and all her minions join the meatpile. Then you start pressing whatever aoe bursts you have and kill her in a very unsatisfying way. After the spider queen was killed we killed every boss after her in the same way. The only boss not killed this way was the endboss. Not surprisingly, this was the most fun i had in the dungeon run. I wasn’t able to convince myself to roll with this group to also do the third path.

Fixing it?

Perhaps implementing a mechanic in the dungeons that enables to bosses to deal huge amounts of damage when players are stacked on top of him would fix this. he would activate the mechanic when there are 3 or more players within a very short range (closer that a melee normally would go). This would make groups that stack on top of a boss realise quickly that it’s not a good idea to go and have a tea party under the belly of a giant spider. It would also make the mechanics of those bosses have a use again.

reflects:

So yeah, bassicly, this reflects projectiles back at the caster. Great mechanic, it really is. The problem comes in when you use it against bosses: the whole huge amount of damage is reflected back. How can a measly see through purple wall do that much damage? how can the giganticus lupicus, the bosses of all bosses, the one that could kill groups so fast, and so much times after eachother, be killed in mere seconds whilst ignoring his (great) mechanics? oh, that’s right, just queue up some reflects and laugh in his face.

fixing it?

Yeah, simple ( well, I dunno, I’m not a dev), make some projectiles ignore reflects. And put a cap on the damage that can be reflected! this is making classes that do not have reflects less viable!

skipping practicly the whole dungeon to go straight at the lewts:

Oh, this is the one i hate the most. You join a dungeon or the underground fractal only to hear people say you should place your face against the wall and jump repeatedly until you run in places you shouldn’t be and skip all the hard work and fun stuff just to get to the last boss or to skip something that is even remotely challenging. This isn’t deus ex, this isn’t crysis 2. It’s guild wars 2, the only stealth play you’re supposed to get here is by playing a thief! You crash through the door of a dungeon and kill every fool boss that wants to stop you from getting to their boss-boss! You don’t strut in, kill 3 mobs, plant your face against a wall and start running loops until you finally make that jump that let’s you walk past all of those people. you’d think they’d build a wall there after hunderds of people walking through there wouldn’t you? If you want to protect something, you don’t leave a shortcut to that something right in front of the madmen that invade your headquarters.

fixing it?

well, the building a wall thing seems like a good idea, but an invisible wall seems good enough to me.

skipping mobs:

Actually, there’s not really a problem here, it’s just that it’s weird to run past all those angry mobs because there’s not a single good reason to kill them. It’s been a long time since I did a CoF run that involved killing all the mobs. It’s just not worth it.

solution?

reward us, make us feel special because we raided a dungeon and didn’t leave a single standing upright. give us things that we can’t get when we don’t do that. skins, rares, things that make you seriously consider killing all of the mobs. Maybe put it in the dailies.

Likewise, reward the speedrunners as well, It’s not like charging in and killing all the leaders of the flame legion in 5 minutes isn’t a feat. reward those as well, but with other things, other skins for example. Make us try both ways of crushing an enemy organisation.
Maybe make an instance where every mob has more health and drops more stuff. Condition damage players will love this, and many players could try condition damage in these instances. (if the bleed cap gets removed, I think this is because of programming but I would really like to see it removed so condition dmg players don’t have to worry about their own kin) This would give us something fresh, and the excitement of killing a boss after minutes of throwing attacks at him whilst using luck, skill and your class mechanics to survive the brutal fight.

So, just to be clear: I’m not hating on speedrunning. It’s a good concept to challenge yourself and I’d love it to be actually inplemented in the game. In a GOOD way. The problem I have with the speedruns is that it isn’t about the challenge, It’s about the loot. People want as much loot as they can get in as few time they can do it in. They will keep abusing it, and they will pull new players into this spiral. I can’t imagine myself as a new player running my first explorable dungeon at lvl 80 and be cool with all these things. I’d probably quit. Lucky for me i’m already geared and I can do fractals, which are very much more awesome, some dungeon problems seep over, but not enough to make me want to quit this game.

I don’t want to see this game die, I really don’t and that’s why I want the dungeons to be the best they can be, so people don’t quit the game because they got bored of doing the same dungeon 20 times in a row, in a couple of hours of play.

Please fellow players, arenanet, take this seriously, I mean the best and I know some players enjoy it. But I don’t, it isn’t how the game is supposed to be played and I can’t allow them to scare away new players, those that are the people that should keep the game alive. Let them see the game as it IS supposed to be played.

Cheers.

im not gona lie ,

comming from a BUNCH of OTHER MMO’s , when i started playing dungeons in GW2 , the first thing that came to mind ( while being shown how to do them ) was:

W..T..F…. is this BS…. lol ,

specially about the stacking , and RUNNING past Endless groups of MOBS…

i remember thinking: * this cant be right ?! **

Fixing it?

Don’t join speed clears.

Ralron.8124:

im not gona lie ,

comming from a BUNCH of OTHER MMO’s , when i started playing dungeons in GW2 , the first thing that came to mind ( while being shown how to do them ) was:

W..T..F…. is this BS…. lol ,

specially about the stacking , and RUNNING past Endless groups of MOBS…

i remember thinking: * this cant be right ?! **

Yeah, I was lucky to be here at the start, back when everybody had only rares and exotics were “the kitten” xD Those were the good times, people didn’t abuse these things yet, they worked their way through the dungeons. Getting my first full exotic set was so rewarding and a lot of fun!

Well i figure i will comment before this thread is exiled to the dungeons sub forum:

If you honestly think that the new content is actually good IDK what to tell you. The new stuff is so freaking easy that its good that it usually doesn’t last more than a month because it just sucks and is only good for a run or two.

As for stacking, a quick glance at the proper forum shows that this is a well known issue, and low and behold, bosses will down parties that dont use skills that prevent damage. You might not see those skills used, because you dont know what to look for. Blinds/aegis/protection/weakness. All are often “spammed” in a stack and it negates the bosses slow attacks so the group can keep up their dps rotation. It is a result of the combat system rewarding tight group formations (short range boons)and melee (high risk high reward, melee is much more damage than ranged even in base numbers). Fixing it would require a massive overhaul of enemy AI, how skills and boons work, and how CC and defiant works.

Gnat.9405:

Fixing it?

Don’t join speed clears.

Ok, done. The problem I have with speed runs is that it scares away new players. That is not what the first dungeon should be like after you reach max level, It really isn’t…

I’m sure some speed runners would agree with my idea of implementing it in the game as one of many modes of doing the dungeon. with new rewards, but it being actually a CHALLEGE. you remember that word?

notabot.3497:

Well i figure i will comment before this thread is exiled to the dungeons sub forum:

If you honestly think that the new content is actually good IDK what to tell you. The new stuff is so freaking easy that its good that it usually doesn’t last more than a month because it just sucks and is only good for a run or two.

As for stacking, a quick glance at the proper forum shows that this is a well known issue, and low and behold, bosses will down parties that dont use skills that prevent damage. You might not see those skills used, because you dont know what to look for. Blinds/aegis/protection/weakness. All are often “spammed” in a stack and it negates the bosses slow attacks so the group can keep up their dps rotation. It is a result of the combat system rewarding tight group formations (short range boons)and melee (high risk high reward, melee is much more damage than ranged even in base numbers). Fixing it would require a massive overhaul of enemy AI, how skills and boons work, and how CC and defiant works.

Very true, and I think it is a good mechanic, but I don’t want to do it for every other boss. I don’t want another person to force me to play melee because it’s faster that way. It is a cool way to play, if you know how to cc. I’d love to see it implemented as phases in the newer bosses they will be making. But bursting a boss whilst ignoring it’s mechanics is not supposed to be done. It’s not fun if you do it with almost every boss.

the noobiniser.7465:

Gnat.9405:

Fixing it?

Don’t join speed clears.

Ok, done. The problem I have with speed runs is that it scares away new players. That is not what the first dungeon should be like after you reach max level, It really isn’t…

I’m sure some speed runners would agree with my idea of implementing it in the game as one of many modes of doing the dungeon. with new rewards, but it being actually a CHALLEGE. you remember that word?

The dungeons are still challenging. Just not to somebody who has played their character enough to know what it can do, and who knows the mechanics of the game. The content has been out for well over a year now, expecting it to still be hard despite having been long ago solved is a bit too much to ask is it not? Take an all new group into the dungeon and let them have their fun. I guarantee they will quit more often than not because its “so hard” its unfair. Bring a teacher with them and if they amazingly will actually listen, it will still be a challenge, but it will be very doable. Next time they run they will know all the hard parts and be better geared (maybe asking for to much right off the bat). A few more times and they essentially solve it. If they keep running it, its for the rewards. Then they start looking at ways to do it fast since time = money. Suddenly they are the enemy as they slowly turn towards the dark side of speed running.

There is this fallacy that exists in which berserker SC groups do not require skill. You have clearly never played it. As for new players, I think it’s obvious that they shouldn’t join a group that says “speed clear” on their first dungeon runs.

This is a personal problem and you’re complaining under the guise of pioneering new palyers. It’s transparent and false.

People, please notice that I am NOT bashing speed running! I just hate the fact that those things are being done whilst speedrunning! don’t bash this thread because you love speedrunning. I’d like to do it as well, but you can’t deny that people are running the dungeons multiple times in full glass cannon builds without dying. I want arenanet to implement it as a mechanic, an extra thing to do whilst ALSO keeping an eye on the other mechanics of the dungeon, instead of ignoring them with wild CCs

I personally just tired of seeing the following things:

• ZERK ONLY!
• HEAVY ONLY
• NO NECROS (?) ( even if hes ZERK and they ask for zerk only ) ( PS zerk necro have better single target DPS then a war witch is 80% of fights in dungeons and ALL bosses.)
• MESMER OR WAR ONLY!
• LEVEL 80 ONLY ( maybe for some )
• ACHIEVEMENT POINTS XXXXX or more!! ( thats my FAV , i had dungeon master and had done all dungeons over 20 times each befor i got to 1.5k AP)

People in this game are Ignorant , selfish and out right childish

if you want a specific run type then use your guild and Friends!! dont have friends?! FIND SOME!!! I have 8 friends that i normally Run dungeons with and we have specific builds for dungeons, rest of time i just PUG w/e! and help newbs

99% of dungeon LFG require the above witch basically means:

• IF YOUR NEW, kitten YOU!!

unless you land on a player like me that will actually take the extra 30sec to TEACH new players.

the noobiniser.7465:

People, please notice that I am NOT bashing speed running! I just hate the fact that those things are being done whilst speedrunning! don’t bash this thread because you love speedrunning. I’d like to do it as well, but you can’t deny that people are running the dungeons multiple times in full glass cannon builds without dying. I want arenanet to implement it as a mechanic, an extra thing to do whilst ALSO keeping an eye on the other mechanics of the dungeon, instead of ignoring them with wild CCs

Not bashing speed running.
Hate all the techniques that speed runners use.
Don’t like that people who have mastered the content are running in no defense builds because they know how to use their classes abilities…

IDK what world I live in anymore.

the noobiniser.7465:

People, please notice that I am NOT bashing speed running! I just hate the fact that those things are being done whilst speedrunning!

You don’t know what you’re talking about. Those things are what speed clearing IS. I think you need to acquire a better understanding of the combat mechanics and the builds that are involved with SC before you jump on the bandwagon.

Ralron.8124:

I personally just tired of seeing the following things:

• ZERK ONLY!
• HEAVY ONLY
• NO NECROS (?) ( even if hes ZERK and they ask for zerk only ) ( PS zerk necro have better single target DPS then a war witch is 80% of fights in dungeons and ALL bosses.)
• MESMER OR WAR ONLY!
• LEVEL 80 ONLY ( maybe for some )
• ACHIEVEMENT POINTS XXXXX or more!! ( thats my FAV , i had dungeon master and had done all dungeons over 20 times each befor i got to 1.5k AP)

People in this game are Ignorant , selfish and out right childish

if you want a specific run type then use your guild and Friends!! dont have friends?! FIND SOME!!!

99% of dungeon LFG require the above witch basically means: IF YOUR NEW, kitten YOU!!

If you actually watch lfg you will find that many more generic runs are being done, those zerk types of runs take longer to fill so you actually see them post for a long time. Other runs? often fill faster than you can blink. The LFG tool allows description of what is desired. Joining a group without meeting the requirements is as dumb as joining a Path 1 run and voting for path 3. Or jumping into the instance before the others can and running story instead.

Those descriptions are just different filters looking for people that run in the same way that the person runs. Also known as trying to find a compatible group. I’ve seen ads for casual groups, teaching parties, and even one all low levels only (joined for the lulz, my level 36 ele carried a bunch of 50s to the lovers crypt in ac story before they all quit due to how hard it was for them).

Want to watch ignorant and childish people, watch for those who get angry at other people having fun without them. They often use all caps and extra punctuation to provide emphasis. They also tend to curse even though they know there are filters.

Guess what: you can make your own groups.

And now we are in the dungeon forum lol. Bring on the slaughter.

I remembered when AC was very easy and people didn’t mind grouping with different classes and there was no fuss in how you play. As soon as Anet changed AC to make it more challenging, hardly anyone grouped up for AC, even caused some new players to be put off from doing dungeons completely. It wasn’t until groups found methods to make the paths easier to complete that AC got popular again, but required certain professions in the team and tactics.

Generally, players want rewards with the least resistance and max efficiency, hence why there are champ trains in certain maps and some dungeons and paths are hardly touched and others are very popular in LFG. As soon as you introduce something new and difficult, people will likely default to profession specific teams and tactics or not do the dungeon path at all. I think Anet are still trying to figure out the best approach to make all happy, which is why existing paths haven’t been so drastically changed like AC.

Setting the LFG description and stating clearly at the beginning of the dungeon run what you don’t want to do is the only way to avoid the speedrun norm style. Hopefully, you’ll get people to join your team, but curious to know how quickly people join in these groups and the experience of doing a full run without the conventional speed run play style.

I would gladly run 1-2 dungeons a day in a slow manner with a high chance to get precursor. But reality is I need to buy it instead. And I need money for this. More grind – more speed runs, more rude ppl.

I think reflects are fine, only a very small portion of the player base can do those big reflects that one shot enemies or skip phases. They also reward your party’s class diversity and players for coming prepared to the fight with the right skills.

And for stacking, you still need to deal with the fight’s mechanics (Except for a few cases where stacking legitimately is an exploit that bugs encounters. Spider queen is not one of them)

As long as people are chasing their carrot on the stick, they will want to do things as quickly and efficiently as possible.

Nouvel.2375:

I remembered when AC was very easy and people didn’t mind grouping with different classes and there was no fuss in how you play. As soon as Anet changed AC to make it more challenging, hardly anyone grouped up for AC, even caused some new players to be put off from doing dungeons completely. It wasn’t until groups found methods to make the paths easier to complete that AC got popular again, but required certain professions in the team and tactics.

Generally, players want rewards with the least resistance and max efficiency, hence why there are champ trains in certain maps and some dungeons and paths are hardly touched and others are very popular in LFG. As soon as you introduce something new and difficult, people will likely default to profession specific teams and tactics or not do the dungeon path at all. I think Anet are still trying to figure out the best approach to make all happy, which is why existing paths haven’t been so drastically changed like AC.

Setting the LFG description and stating clearly at the beginning of the dungeon run what you don’t want to do is the only way to avoid the speedrun norm style. Hopefully, you’ll get people to join your team, but curious to know how quickly people join in these groups and the experience of doing a full run without the conventional speed run play style.

Well AC is still very doable by beginners, its just not face roll easy which is what they are probably looking for.

Totaly agree whit the noobiniser. when i first played at release there was no skipping or exploiting (atleast not like today) it was “harder” we did it under lvl 80 whit green/blue gear.
Now days it just feels like the dungeons was made for Non 80s whit green gear. since lvl 80 whit zerk group can just steamroll thru the dungeons whit no problems at all in a couple of minutes.

i want a challange when i play dungeons, i team up 5 ppl to do something challanging Not to group farm… that i can do in orr.

dmg > tactic/communcation/teamplay = boring

i would like to see the need of tactics, More teamplay and need of communication, also diffrent roles being fulfilled (support/tankish/cond and power DPS Maybe even some CC being usefull)
i know there is no legit way to tank a mob, but aggro is affected by toughness, wearing a shield or not and range.

would be nice to see a warrior who could stop hugging the floor whit his zerkgear for once.

Error.6290:

dmg > tactic/communcation/teamplay = boring

.

I guess all the stacking, boons and buffs, moving through trash as a group with proper skills ready aren’t tactics, team play, or communication.

I guess I better reroll a GS mesmer or bearbow ranger and learn to play support better. Or perhaps I’ll get a healing staff/mace+sheild guardian up and running so I can be healer when needed. Then I will stand in my spot determined by my class role. If I’m a mesmer, in staff/GS range, if ranger, the next room over. If guardian, standing behind the tank casting heals on cooldown. Better tactics, more skill required… Got to get good at kiting mobs so the tank doesn’t get overwhelmed too, managing the aggro building mechanics is an important thing to learn as well.

Or I could just play GW2 and not WoW.

“i want a challange when i play dungeons, i team up 5 ppl to do something challanging Not to group farm… that i can do in orr.”

Almost all dungeons in all MMOs eventually lose challenge and are repeated for loot rather than difficulty. In other MMOs the difficulty is based around gear that lets the tank take more damage and the healer heal more. In MMOs without down leveling a top level character is often taken in to ensure the farming lower level dungeons is successful.

In GW2 players don’t need gear, they only need the right tactics for the dungeon to be made easy. Anyone who picks up tactics from walk throughs before going inside is immediately losing some of the challenge, but that’s surely not the designer’s fault?

good the disussion is going. This is good. This means people care about this.

Prefferably yes, I’d like for dungeons to be challenging for experienced players once more. That is not what I am aiming for at the moment. I just want dungeons to be played the way they were designed to be played. Can anyone honestly say that dungeons were designed for stacking, skipping, etc…?

If they were played the way they were supposed to be played, they would be good, of course, some bosses are just plain boring. Deal with it. I just want arenanet to make the way they designed to play the content the way YOU should play the content. I think arenanet should implement some of the standards of the forums of the game into the game itself.

The new forum rules cause you to be punished if you do a personal attack on a dev or arenanet itself.

They designed the game, at least respect the rules by which they designed it. boss mechanics aren’t supposed to be ignored. I know quite a few games in which using a bug to make a boss encounter easyer would ban you for a coupla weeks. I’m not talking about using different builds, I’m talking about abusing bugs(no disrispect, there is no perfect) to get faster loot.

Arenanet in my opinion should stand up to this and enforce their views on certain encounters. i wouldn’t mind if they would leave the spider encounter in AC the way it is, but the Giganticus Lupicus should remain as iconic as it was. I don’t mind them using other ways then I suggested. I just want them to save their own game. Make people play the way they were supposed to, this might sound a bit controlling, but it needs to be done to make the encounters better and increase the actual gaming experience. Stop people using bugs, make people experience the dungeon the way they were supposed to. Yes it’ll probably still be easy for the most of us. But it’ll at least be a cool introduction for new players.

notabot.3497:

Error.6290:

dmg > tactic/communcation/teamplay = boring

.

I guess all the stacking, boons and buffs, moving through trash as a group with proper skills ready aren’t tactics, team play, or communication.

I guess I better reroll a GS mesmer or bearbow ranger and learn to play support better. Or perhaps I’ll get a healing staff/mace+sheild guardian up and running so I can be healer when needed. Then I will stand in my spot determined by my class role. If I’m a mesmer, in staff/GS range, if ranger, the next room over. If guardian, standing behind the tank casting heals on cooldown. Better tactics, more skill required… Got to get good at kiting mobs so the tank doesn’t get overwhelmed too, managing the aggro building mechanics is an important thing to learn as well.

Or I could just play GW2 and not WoW.

ok, this is quite the weird argument to make against my thread, have you read the original post? Some people like playing support, I’d play my guardian more if it’d mean my support build would get appreciated. Just so you know I’ve played wow a coupla years. My main was a warlock, but i liked playing a healing paladin on the side, it kept it fresh. The thing with guildwars 2 is that basically any class can be played as a support, tanky, condition damage, direct damage, or hybrid build. that’s what makes gw2 awesome. Ok making all the classes viable in all of those roles in virtually impossible. but what people mainly want(50% put this as required in their lfg) in speed runs these daysis :

3 zerker warriors, a guardian and a mesmer. Be honest the only thing you want in your speed run group ATM is a warrior. done. sure, you can do variations on this. But my point is, this thing is killing their BRILLIANT build system. Players are dropping their favorite proffesion to play a “better” (see why it’s in brackets? They should be considered to be all equal) proffesion. I REFUSE to play a warrior or a mesmer because it’s supposed to be better then my necro. GW2 promoted you could play the way you want to, I’ll play it the way I want to. I won’t pick idiotic builds, I’ll make sure I’m viable, which makes the game more fun, but promoting only the top builds is NOT any different then WoW.

the noobiniser.7465:

notabot.3497:

Error.6290:

dmg > tactic/communcation/teamplay = boring

.

I guess all the stacking, boons and buffs, moving through trash as a group with proper skills ready aren’t tactics, team play, or communication.

I guess I better reroll a GS mesmer or bearbow ranger and learn to play support better. Or perhaps I’ll get a healing staff/mace+sheild guardian up and running so I can be healer when needed. Then I will stand in my spot determined by my class role. If I’m a mesmer, in staff/GS range, if ranger, the next room over. If guardian, standing behind the tank casting heals on cooldown. Better tactics, more skill required… Got to get good at kiting mobs so the tank doesn’t get overwhelmed too, managing the aggro building mechanics is an important thing to learn as well.

Or I could just play GW2 and not WoW.

ok, this is quite the weird argument to make against my thread, have you read the original post? Some people like playing support, I’d play my guardian more if it’d mean my support build would get appreciated. Just so you know I’ve played wow a coupla years. My main was a warlock, but i liked playing a healing paladin on the side, it kept it fresh. The thing with guildwars 2 is that basically any class can be played as a support, tanky, condition damage, direct damage, or hybrid build. that’s what makes gw2 awesome. Ok making all the classes viable in all of those roles in virtually impossible. but what people mainly want(50% put this as required in their lfg) in speed runs these daysis :

3 zerker warriors, a guardian and a mesmer. Be honest the only thing you want in your speed run group ATM is a warrior. done. sure, you can do variations on this. But my point is, this thing is killing their BRILLIANT build system. Players are dropping their favorite proffesion to play a “better” (see why it’s in brackets? They should be considered to be all equal) proffesion. I REFUSE to play a warrior or a mesmer because it’s supposed to be better then my necro. GW2 promoted you could play the way you want to, I’ll play it the way I want to. I won’t pick idiotic builds, I’ll make sure I’m viable, which makes the game more fun, but promoting only the top builds is NOT any different then WoW.

I’m not sure why people still think warriors are the meta for DPS speedrun builds. Ele, thief, guard are all better DPS, and ideal compositions even include rangers these days. Agreed that necro needs love, but really— watch some of the modern speedclear videos. There’s a lot of creativity out there that you’re neglecting in your rush to cast speedrunners as cookie-cutter warrior spammers, and almost all of the classes bring something important to the table.

B… But hundred blades is the highest dps in the gaem!!1

I will add that the PUG community is usually ~6 months behind the current meta which is developed in this forum and in others, so it’s no surprise that silly PUGs still request “ZERKER WARRIOR ONLYYYY.” That’s their problem, as the expert community has moved wayyy past that.

The main offenders are skipping and stacking.

Stacking should be unviable to impossible for the average pug. If true coordinated groups can stack and win, that is fine. As long as it is difficult and not worth the effort for the average pug. Stacking must require all five players coordinating with each other to survive. Areas that do require true coordination, as the pro-stacking claims, in the current state doesn’t need much tuning, but areas that do not, example AC Queen spider, need fixing. Stacking needs to go beyond Pressing 2, 1,1,1,1, and f to revive. It also needs to go beyond spamming all your utilities. Each member will be required to use their defensive utility coordination

Dungeons need to be redesigned for low risk low efficiency and high risk high efficiency tactics. This way, a diversity of optimal tactics will emerge for pugs to coordinated groups. Both using the open field for dynamic combat will work well. This means the solution to the stacking problem is to reverse the current risk spectrum. Put stacking into the highest risk spectrum and using the open field is in the low risk spectrum. Additionally, not stacking being high risk and low efficiency is why I find stacking to be a big problem.

Stacking will always be the highest efficiency, no matter what. The game is accidentally designed for it, but good thing there is multiple variables. Anet can change another variable instead to balance it out.

To fix skipping, I suggest adding more and more low hp mobs with CC skills that makes it hard to skip. Each mob is balanced around the open world PvE mob. The point is to make skipping in the high risk spectrum while killing mobs will be in the low risk spectrum. Groups can skip if they can achieve it. Sometimes, it isn’t worth the trouble to skip all these easy mobs. Why do people skip? So they can shave an extra minute off their run. By skipping, you risk adding 15 minutes instead of saving one minute. It is true today, but the percentage of failing is very low. This time, the percentage is higher.

tl;dr:

• Stacking becomes high risk high efficiency and not-stacking is low risk low/medium efficiency.
• Skipping is high risk high efficiency and not-skipping is low risk high efficiency.

I play support guard for the most part in dungeons. Yet my build is the meta dps gear/trait set. My blinds, reflects, regen, might, condition clear carry bad pugs and contribute my fair share to good groups (I dont run in organized speed clears that often, though I do have the build for it).

Support in this game isn’t the same thing as it is in wow, stop trying to make it the same. Blinds, damage buffs, and well timed prots are all a group needs for support. Healing is a generally non issue since if the other stuff works you dont need heals. The self heal for most classes is so strong that its effectively worthless to spec for group healing. Both my mes and guardian self heal for nearly half their health with just one click without any gear/trait support as an example (though having a low health pool contributes to this, who needs vit?). Add in passive regen provided by other party members (small as it is) and I don’t worry about hp much at all.

Your understanding of the game is at least 6 months out of date, and certainly wrong post dungeon rewards changes (the 4 war mes/5 war runs were just for farming COF and a couple of other paths). Ironically the ideal speed clear group is largely dungeon specific and I would say 6/8 of classes are in demand for them. War banners, guard/mes reflects, thief skips, ranger’s spotter trait/frost spirit, and ele might stacks/conjured weapons are all wanted due to the support they give to the group. Notice that most of the desired things increase dps and stack with each other. All the classes named have strong self sufficient survival even with being zerk. Engie is rough, they can be a credit to team, but the dedicated player who is good enough to run them correctly is pretty rare. Same with necros with the downside that most of them seem to be followers of bad build advice from youtube, and also suffer from the classes mechanics that just don’t work well in a speed clear group. You can make them work if you are willing to understand and accept their limits and your role in a group. This means don’t lay down fields that mess up might stacking or other needed combo fields.

I do think we should start referring the meta builds as support guard, support warrior etc. Maybe people will start to understand slowly.

spoj.9672:

I do think we should start referring the meta builds as support guard, support warrior etc. Maybe people will start to understand slowly.

That banner, such OP support!

maxinion.8396:

spoj.9672:

I do think we should start referring the meta builds as support guard, support warrior etc. Maybe people will start to understand slowly.

That banner, such OP support!

Hey, i notice when its not there. Its also nice when people know how to stomp them in fire fields for might stacks.

runeblade.7514:

The main offenders are skipping and stacking.

Stacking should be unviable to impossible for the average pug. If true coordinated groups can stack and win, that is fine. As long as it is difficult and not worth the effort for the average pug. Stacking must require all five players coordinating with each other to survive. Areas that do require true coordination, as the pro-stacking claims, in the current state doesn’t need much tuning, but areas that do not, example AC Queen spider, need fixing. Stacking needs to go beyond Pressing 2, 1,1,1,1, and f to revive. It also needs to go beyond spamming all your utilities. Each member will be required to use their defensive utility coordination

Dungeons need to be redesigned for low risk low efficiency and high risk high efficiency tactics. This way, a diversity of optimal tactics will emerge for pugs to coordinated groups. Both using the open field for dynamic combat will work well. This means the solution to the stacking problem is to reverse the current risk spectrum. Put stacking into the highest risk spectrum and using the open field is in the low risk spectrum. Additionally, not stacking being high risk and low efficiency is why I find stacking to be a big problem.

Stacking will always be the highest efficiency, no matter what. The game is accidentally designed for it, but good thing there is multiple variables. Anet can change another variable instead to balance it out.

To fix skipping, I suggest adding more and more low hp mobs with CC skills that makes it hard to skip. Each mob is balanced around the open world PvE mob. The point is to make skipping in the high risk spectrum while killing mobs will be in the low risk spectrum. Groups can skip if they can achieve it. Sometimes, it isn’t worth the trouble to skip all these easy mobs. Why do people skip? So they can shave an extra minute off their run. By skipping, you risk adding 15 minutes instead of saving one minute. It is true today, but the percentage of failing is very low. This time, the percentage is higher.

tl;dr:

• Stacking becomes high risk high efficiency and not-stacking is low risk low/medium efficiency.
• Skipping is high risk high efficiency and not-skipping is low risk high efficiency.

This sounds interesting to me, it won’t stop people from stacking, but at least it would have disadvantages as well. pugs in rares wouldn’t be able to stack and win, they would probably have to do the “normal” approach.

making mobs harder to skip would feel like forcing people, I think they should reward us from killing all the mobs on the path you chose instead. I believe arenanet already said something along these lines. (not sure though)

Also, the one thing everyone probably agrees on is that there should be something stopping us from skipping parts of the dungeon by jumping on the roof of the dungeon etc. Is there anyone that does NOT agree with this?

runeblade.7514:

To fix skipping, I suggest adding more and more low hp mobs with CC skills that makes it hard to skip. Each mob is balanced around the open world PvE mob. The point is to make skipping in the high risk spectrum while killing mobs will be in the low risk spectrum. Groups can skip if they can achieve it. Sometimes, it isn’t worth the trouble to skip all these easy mobs. Why do people skip? So they can shave an extra minute off their run. By skipping, you risk adding 15 minutes instead of saving one minute. It is true today, but the percentage of failing is very low. This time, the percentage is higher.

tl;dr:

• Stacking becomes high risk high efficiency and not-stacking is low risk low/medium efficiency.
• Skipping is high risk high efficiency and not-skipping is low risk high efficiency.

The thing is, if you don’t skip a dungeon takes way more than 15 minutes. Way more than the typical speed run.

If you make it skip and maybe add 15 minutes, you look at 30 minutes or still way more than 30 minutes if you don’t skip. Plus, most people would just equip a stun break or other such CC removal skill or run with a character that has a skill that removes it from allies.

So instead of doing 6 runs in a day for example, a person can now only do 3. They become a lot more picky about who they run with and then more people complain that they can’t get a group to do X dungeon Y path.

Make not skipping more rewarding for the time spent and people might consider not skipping more often than they do.

the noobiniser.7465:

Gnat.9405:

Fixing it?

Don’t join speed clears.

Ok, done. The problem I have with speed runs is that it scares away new players. That is not what the first dungeon should be like after you reach max level, It really isn’t…

I’m sure some speed runners would agree with my idea of implementing it in the game as one of many modes of doing the dungeon. with new rewards, but it being actually a CHALLEGE. you remember that word?

Well, mate, they should scare away new players. Or at least keep them away until they know the mechanics well enough. I see you’re talking about AC and CoF. Every post I’ve seen complaining about EZ mode stacking clears cites the AC spider queen. Scrubs wipe on her too. It’s not just standing in a corner. A party in Clerics gear can do that anyways. The folks who blaze through this content can do it without the stack as well. The fast times are not a result of stacking but rather a result of well synergized skills and high damage output. Stacking just simplifies it.

Believe me, take a party of scrubs, they will die even if they stack. They will certainly not speed clear a dungeon that way.

Don’t think that I’m knocking you or anything. I agree that there should be harder paths added and new mechanics here and there. Sadly these usually end up boiling down to ‘moar healths’ or ‘moar puzzelz’ everytime they make a change.

Chris RJ.1843:

the noobiniser.7465:

Gnat.9405:

Fixing it?

Don’t join speed clears.

Ok, done. The problem I have with speed runs is that it scares away new players. That is not what the first dungeon should be like after you reach max level, It really isn’t…

I’m sure some speed runners would agree with my idea of implementing it in the game as one of many modes of doing the dungeon. with new rewards, but it being actually a CHALLEGE. you remember that word?

Well, mate, they should scare away new players. Or at least keep them away until they know the mechanics well enough. I see you’re talking about AC and CoF. Every post I’ve seen complaining about EZ mode stacking clears cites the AC spider queen. Scrubs wipe on her too. It’s not just standing in a corner. A party in Clerics gear can do that anyways. The folks who blaze through this content can do it without the stack as well. The fast times are not a result of stacking but rather a result of well synergized skills and high damage output. Stacking just simplifies it.

Believe me, take a party of scrubs, they will die even if they stack. They will certainly not speed clear a dungeon that way.

Don’t think that I’m knocking you or anything. I agree that there should be harder paths added and new mechanics here and there. Sadly these usually end up boiling down to ‘moar healths’ or ‘moar puzzelz’ everytime they make a change.

hmm, the newer dungeons and fractals are actually really to my taste, and yes bosses need more health. At least some of them, because bosses are supposed to take some time. I consider 5 minutes to be a minimum for a good boss. Some should be a lot longer, such as lupicus.

Noobiniser, some of them I like. Some of them I don’t. I am actually not against the idea of puzzles but I think they’ve been horribly implemented in this game. I think this could be fixed with more time spent in dev. Content seems to be rushed out the door before it even has its trousers on.

Puzzles and dungeons dependent on NPCs are frequent culprits. I agree with you that bosses should take a little longer. I really loved what they did with Teq for the most part. I would like to see more stuff of that caliber and maybe some new dungeon paths with challenging mechanics that go above just more health.

I just don’t think reducing crit damage is the way to do that. They seem to be treating symptoms and leaving the underlying problem alone. PvE could use some work. The classes may need balance later but only after PvE gets a proper fix.

As for the dungeons, I actually enjoy melting through mobs with a great team. I find it enjoyable and I would like it more than running around ranging and tanking, and healing, etc… I also don’t have hours and hours per week to play. I don’t want to spend it crawling through 1 dungeon with a party of clerics and PVTs taking 1 hour to clear a path.

Stooperdale.3560:

“i want a challange when i play dungeons, i team up 5 ppl to do something challanging Not to group farm… that i can do in orr.”

Almost all dungeons in all MMOs eventually lose challenge and are repeated for loot rather than difficulty. In other MMOs the difficulty is based around gear that lets the tank take more damage and the healer heal more. In MMOs without down leveling a top level character is often taken in to ensure the farming lower level dungeons is successful.

In GW2 players don’t need gear, they only need the right tactics for the dungeon to be made easy. Anyone who picks up tactics from walk throughs before going inside is immediately losing some of the challenge, but that’s surely not the designer’s fault?

Ye.. standing in a corner and AFK whit 1 on auto is hard. and press F when somone go down. Super hard tactics.
Most bosses just have a large health pool. Nothing needs to be cured or applied.
Maybe some boss who force u to dodge alot and u need to give vigor to party?
Maybe a Really long Stun that force u to give stability to party?
You see where i am going? bosses should not be all about DMG and evade core abilitys, maybe u need some CD’s to be timed right or boons applied to make the ecounter more team based rather then “if i dodge right we have nothing to worry about” (i know some bosses have boons that Helps if you remove, but ye… zerkers don’t care much about that just takes a few secs longer)

Error.6290:

Stooperdale.3560:

“i want a challange when i play dungeons, i team up 5 ppl to do something challanging Not to group farm… that i can do in orr.”

Almost all dungeons in all MMOs eventually lose challenge and are repeated for loot rather than difficulty. In other MMOs the difficulty is based around gear that lets the tank take more damage and the healer heal more. In MMOs without down leveling a top level character is often taken in to ensure the farming lower level dungeons is successful.

In GW2 players don’t need gear, they only need the right tactics for the dungeon to be made easy. Anyone who picks up tactics from walk throughs before going inside is immediately losing some of the challenge, but that’s surely not the designer’s fault?

Ye.. standing in a corner and AFK whit 1 on auto is hard. and press F when somone go down. Super hard tactics.
Most bosses just have a large health pool. Nothing needs to be cured or applied.
Maybe some boss who force u to dodge alot and u need to give vigor to party?
Maybe a Really long Stun that force u to give stability to party?
You see where i am going? bosses should not be all about DMG and evade core abilitys, maybe u need some CD’s to be timed right or boons applied to make the ecounter more team based rather then “if i dodge right we have nothing to worry about” (i know some bosses have boons that Helps if you remove, but ye… zerkers don’t care much about that just takes a few secs longer)

Well stability doesn’t do anything to remove stuns, and it doesn’t last long enough to proactively use it as protection. Thus the enemy would have to telegraph the stun move (like they do currently) and then its just easier to dodge the attack or use normal blinds/aegis to not even worry about it. Some bosses already give nasty effects, but normal skill use or other party members if traited correctly gets rid of it easy enough. Most classes have access to vigor, and the ones that don’t have other passive/active defenses going for them, or in an organized group somebody whose build in addition to being the meta dps does a good job of protecting the team.

The interplay that you are wanting is already there, you just are leaching off of the others putting up boons for you, or worse you are just spamming on rotation and not even knowing what is going on (admittedly its so fast its hard to really see all of the things happening all at once).