Necro not optimal for fractals

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Alex Shatter.7956

Alex Shatter.7956

The necromancer DPS benchmark status is only there because of raids, and very specific boss fights. namely ones where it is easy to bounce epidemics off the main boss, and it is worth it to take the time to do so. In fractals, this is rarely the case.

And yet, I keep seeing parties forming in the lfg only looking for “condi reaper”. At times I join these, ankitten ever surprised at how garbled and slow the team moves through the fractal. I once did a level 100 Mai Tran where I was told to my face that ranged condition damage was the best way to handle it.

I enjoy necromancer as well, but I think there’s a lot of “lord of darkness bias” going on here and would really like it to stop so I can actually get things done

(edited by Alex Shatter.7956)

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

You’re right. It’s not optimal; it’s easy and is a nice safeguard and carry class if you end up on a team with really bad players. That’s why it’s so popular.

[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: TexZero.7910

TexZero.7910

The necromancer DPS benchmark status is only there because of raids, and very specific boss fights. namely ones where it is easy to bounce epidemics off the main boss, and it is worth it to take the time to do so. In fractals, this is rarely the case.

And yet, I keep seeing parties forming in the lfg only looking for “condi reaper”. At times I join these, ankitten ever surprised at how garbled and slow the team moves through the fractal. I once did a level 100 Mai Tran where I was told to my face that ranged condition damage was the best way to handle it.

I enjoy necromancer as well, but I think there’s a lot of “lord of darkness bias” going on here and would really like it to stop so I can actually get things done

and what’s stopping you from getting anything done ?

I can assure you it’s not the necro’s as its stupidly easy to do any fractal achievement with them in party.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: KickzNGigglez.4958

KickzNGigglez.4958

You’re right, but out of all the classes I usually take through fractals the necro has been able to carry bad players the hardest. I used to fractal on my mesmer and my warrior and hope that my team didn’t suck hard. Now it’s rarely a problem unless it’s swamp day or all 4 of them are below average (which still happens).

The necro bias does sort of annoy me though. A lot of new players are assuming if they’re playing necro they’ll be fine because everyone on the forums believes it’s a free pass. While it tends to be true sometimes, it’s not a sure fact.

(edited by KickzNGigglez.4958)

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Alex Shatter.7956

Alex Shatter.7956

Actually ranged condi dmg is the best way to handle mai trin for many pugs since many can’t melee her. They spend most of their time kiting using ranged weapons while running power builds which makes their dps way lower than a condi necro for most classes.

if you get to the level 100 fractal, i expect you to be able to melee her efficiently and not kite the cannons

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Vagrant.7206

Vagrant.7206

You’re right. It’s not optimal; it’s easy and is a nice safeguard and carry class if you end up on a team with really bad players. That’s why it’s so popular.

Not just that.

At t4, condis can easily outdamage power builds, owing to the way armor is applied to higher tier enemies. I see enemies die much faster with all-condi groups, on top of the high-health and carry potential of necros.

(btw I run a condi engi. I consistently draw aggro from RANGE despite having only 1000 toughness. Means I’m doing a ton of damage compared to the other players)

The great god Lagki demands sacrifice.

(edited by Vagrant.7206)

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Benchmark doesn’t include epidemics, which is why it’s an incorrect benchmark. But, also the ‘as many necros as possible’ “meta”(lol) doesn’t gain the buffs that the benchmarks have. So its’ just all wrong.

However, necro’s survivability still makes for a nice easy run. And add a Ranger and a consistent might provider and you’re rocking it hard, maybe not best but certainly easy and solid.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Alex Shatter.7956

Alex Shatter.7956

Actually ranged condi dmg is the best way to handle mai trin for many pugs since many can’t melee her. They spend most of their time kiting using ranged weapons while running power builds which makes their dps way lower than a condi necro for most classes.

if you get to the level 100 fractal, i expect you to be able to melee her efficiently and not kite the cannons

And there’s your problem, your expectations don’t match the reality of many pugs. They don’t seek efficiency but efficacy, and when it comes to that, necro is god tier in fractals.

but other professions have the same longevity and damage. Druid and engineer match or surpass necromancers damage output and can either out-survive or peer necromancer. my point is that there are a growing number of teams of “full necromancer only”, which is completely ridiculous and based in opinion- there are far more optimal teams if you want to be “selective”

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Alex Shatter.7956

Alex Shatter.7956

Friends- I understand that necromancer has “longevity” and that conditions are good in high toughness environments- but it is ridiculous that people assume a full team of necromancers is “optimal”. I was kicked from a party because the other 4 players decided removing a chronomancer for a 5th necro was the “elite” and “meta”

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Friends- I understand that necromancer has “longevity” and that conditions are good in high toughness environments- but it is ridiculous that people assume a full team of necromancers is “optimal”. I was kicked from a party because the other 4 players decided removing a chronomancer for a 5th necro was the “elite” and “meta”

No use getting upset over stupid, you can’t beat it.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Alex Shatter.7956

Alex Shatter.7956

Friends- I understand that necromancer has “longevity” and that conditions are good in high toughness environments- but it is ridiculous that people assume a full team of necromancers is “optimal”. I was kicked from a party because the other 4 players decided removing a chronomancer for a 5th necro was the “elite” and “meta”

No use getting upset over stupid, you can’t beat it.

but can it be nipped in the bud? i wouldnt have taken the time to write a post about it if i didnt see it every day in the t4 lfg /sigh

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Jerus.4350

Jerus.4350

Friends- I understand that necromancer has “longevity” and that conditions are good in high toughness environments- but it is ridiculous that people assume a full team of necromancers is “optimal”. I was kicked from a party because the other 4 players decided removing a chronomancer for a 5th necro was the “elite” and “meta”

No use getting upset over stupid, you can’t beat it.

but can it be nipped in the bud? i wouldnt have taken the time to write a post about it if i didnt see it every day in the t4 lfg /sigh

The fact that people request specific things in fractals is dumb, but people do it. Same with old dungeon pugs, chances are that ‘meta’ group took longer to clear the dungeons they did if they tried to pug a perfect makeup. Can’t cure stupid.

I honestly don’t see much of requests at all on NA though, but I guess I do fractals usually a bit after reset so maybe I just miss it?

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

Necros are popular for PUGs because the chance of failure is lower compared to nearly any other prof. A poorly-played condi necro does better than any other class, as far as what is required from the player to contribute to the PUG.

Given that we can’t expect fractal PUGs to have more than sufficient AR and some familiarity with the mechanics (and those aren’t 100% true), asking for necro is a good move.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Iris Ng.9845

Iris Ng.9845

Friends- I understand that necromancer has “longevity” and that conditions are good in high toughness environments- but it is ridiculous that people assume a full team of necromancers is “optimal”. I was kicked from a party because the other 4 players decided removing a chronomancer for a 5th necro was the “elite” and “meta”

No use getting upset over stupid, you can’t beat it.

but can it be nipped in the bud? i wouldnt have taken the time to write a post about it if i didnt see it every day in the t4 lfg /sigh

Why bother policing what other groups want to play? Honestly, i’d rather see my pug playing condi necro than all going gsword mesmer or bearbow. Run whatever you like in your own group. I don’t see a point to write up a knee-jerk reaction post about pug. Pug itself is never the meta.

“Raids are like fortune cookies. You eat the cookie and then read the paper scraps.”

- doranduck, 2016 on Lore in Raids

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: mazut.4296

mazut.4296

I play only necro in fractals(very rarely guardian) and I personally think the 4 necros + healer is ridiculous and pointless. The plus is that necros will rarely die and the run will be or rather should be easy and without wipes. The negative side si the lower damage overall. The condition ramp is slow and a team with 2 necros + warrior, ele and mesmer will do a lot better.
Another negative point is the healer. Necros do not need a healer. Some people will argue the healer is there to heal the minions, but well, I use blood magic and my minions are perfectly fine and even if they die I can recast them soon again.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Tentonhammr.7849

Tentonhammr.7849

Honestly, we should be focusing on getting pugs to properly CC Bloomhunger and the Chaos Isle boss instead of running scared and failing to dodge the pull. Then we optimize team comps.

Zelendel

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Senario.2038

Senario.2038

To be fair – Necro has minions which tank for them and they are a naturally tanky class.

That said I believe I read somewhere that fractal bosses have about 3600 toughness past lvl 50 wheras raid bosses have 2600 which is a significant difference in terms of dps between power and condi.

In general not enough ppl know their class well enough and Necro is currently pretty easy to not only survive but do consistent damage (because all you need to do is apply condis and forget. Even from a range).

You could fix this with 2600 toughness, and more hp. But there is no real solution for Necro’s inherent tankiness that doesn’t infringe on any other gamemodes too much (or even raids).

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Deepcuts.9740

Deepcuts.9740

Did several runs with 4x Necro and me, the Druid.
Some went butter smooth because people knew their stuff and they were stacking (when possible)
Some went terribly bad, because everyone was running like mad and I could not get buffs or heals on every one of them, for one and like always, there are always more bad players then good ones.
IMHO, player skill trumps class.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Vinceman.4572

Vinceman.4572

At t4, condis can easily outdamage power builds, owing to the way armor is applied to higher tier enemies. I see enemies die much faster with all-condi groups, on top of the high-health and carry potential of necros.

That’s the reason why necromancers are brought to T4! Simple as it is.
Yes, I agree that a team comp of druid, war, mes and 2 necros could actually perform better/faster also engis could replace them but first of all it’s way harder to play engi properly so that most of the casual necros outdamage casual engis and second you need to wait very long to have such team comp together where everyone can play her/his class to the extent that it’s better than a comp with many necros.

I’m playing T4 since HoT and I haven’t seen a group being faster without necros although I’ve been playing ps war (main) for a very long time with speed clear and total random guys. I met some good engis on my way – but they are rare and not a common class at all – and the whole thing felt a little bit accelerated but still the tanking of necromancers makes it easier for the whole group and if you leave them out all 5 players have to play their A game to not struggle.

So yeah, stacking necromancers is not optimal but it’s not far away from it. For pugs it’s the best you can bring atm – still very fast and very safe.

Took me 3 runs of the dungeon to get the bug.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

I still wouldn’t mind bringing one Condi necro at higher level fractals. It’s an excellent safety net for pug runs that aren’t fixated on speed clears, which is effectively all of the runs which want to get T4 dailies done.

Having to spend a few extra minutes clearing all three T4 fractals versus the risk of a wipe if someone messes up is pretty good. This holds especially true when someone is dead the majority of an encounter, a necro is almost always immortal and guaranteed dps.

…Though, I wouldn’t stack them.

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Hesacon.8735

Hesacon.8735

Necro is nice in high level fractals because of boon stealing. Scepter/axe/focus/dagger can all remove boons, as can well of corruption and corrupt boon. So at any given time you can look at 4 different ways to remove boons available at the same time.

But at that point you probably don’t need more than 1-2 of them. 1 is more than adequate if all you’re doing is banging on a boss.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: OnizukaBR.8537

OnizukaBR.8537

Actually condi reaper viper make things a lot faster. But you probably got condi reaper with bad stats/runes for that reason it was slow.
I bet that condi reaper party can go faster than any other one if they are all viper and know how to play.
There are a lot of reasons you want reaper on T4 fractals for example:
- Blood is power: if you have 2 reaper using BiP, you can kill trash really fast as you start the fight with 20 might, and epidemic just make trash on T4 look like dungeons because how fast they go down.
- Underground fractal, dredges: they have a wave attack that can 2 shots almost anyone. Reapers can use Poison cloud as utility that make part of dps rotation and just dredge attack do 0 damage.
- Minions: can tank most mobs so you can just rotate your dps without worrying about anything else, so it go faster.
- Natural tankiness: Necros have high HP + Death Shroud, making than the most tank class with glass cannon stats.
- Things like bloomhunger stomp, reaper can save a party member with transfusion.
- T4 75-80 frac with condition on hit. Necro can cleanse all party member easily and boost their own dps on the process.
- T4 81+: Enemys getting boons improves Necro dps as they dont only strip it but make it into conditions.
- Mai trin: Necros can epi, can save party member with transfusion, can stand in front of mai trin get 16 stacks of bleed then transfer it to Mai.
So there are a lot of more reasons reapers are God on T4 fractals, and if your party isnt going faster with reapers, is probably because you getting bad reapers ( ones with defensive stats like toughness, vit,hp).

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Ging.6485

Ging.6485

Necro is really really easy to play in fractals. It’s as simple as that. They have all the tools necessary to complete every fractal with minimal effort.

I main Engi, and while I can definitely out damage a Necro, I also get downed much more as a Condi Engi. In Uncategorized, as Condi Engi I have trouble with the harpies. They attack far too fast for blind to be useful against them and my reflects are either really short duration or really long cooldown. Necro can just stand behind minions if all else fails. Engi has a hard time doing the puke room in Thaumanova compared to Necro, plus the Anomaly ends up with you just running around and spamming grenades because of the highly increased rate of floor drops during the later phases.

Fractals can be done with other classes of course, any combination. However, Necros make them a mindless endeavor.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: SoV.5139

SoV.5139

People are worried about efficiency however, when you add the time they waited for the perfect group to the somewhat less time completing, then compare that to the less time it took building the less perfect “non-meta” group plus the somewhat longer completion time, its really not taking the non meta groups longer, unless the super hyper global Omni meta tastic groups are people who play together regularly and do not need a longer set up time to find the perfect meta group. Aka – not a PUG. And If we played together a long time, chances are we don’t need an uber meta tastic group to be efficient anyhow….

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: maxwelgm.4315

maxwelgm.4315

The logic here is the same everyone wholeheartedly agrees with for raids: if you’re pugging, getting to play “hard” content with people you supposedly don’t know, you don’t want to take chances; why would I take that glass cannon tempest/PS war that I’m not sure knows his damage rotation while dodging agony stacks? Mobs have more raw toughness inside Fractals therefore he would actually be on higher pressure to get it right than inside a raid, even though avoiding death is much easier.

If you really think necro is that suboptimal concerning damage that people should endanger their runs by bringing in more wars/mes/tempests/whatever you should make analysis much more in depth, say, by comparing runtimes with the same players on different classes or by using the DPS thing on LA simulating fractal situations (e.g you have to dodge every 4 seconds and rotate around the mob while dealing damage at range, like Bloomhunger).

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: CptAurellian.9537

CptAurellian.9537

I always see the difference when one of our team of three (we other two don’t play necro at all) decides to play his thief instead of his necro in T4 fractals. Runs suddenly become a lot more stressful. On the other hand, runs where we have 3 necros are usually a piece of cake. I don’t think any other class offers the same effort-reward ratio as the necro. Not what I’d call good class balance, but I can hardly change it.

Warning! This post may contain traces of irony, sarcasm and peanuts.

There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Sarahfull.4930

Sarahfull.4930

People want the rewards and would rather play safe than practice something hard and get better. I personality enjoy fighting for my life in a sense on zerk and feel a sense of pride coming out un-touched.

Saying this, there is alot more to nerco than what people pick up and use just to get the T4 rewards

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Amicable Pugs.4503

Amicable Pugs.4503

2 Necro is meta, even for record times you’ll want 2 necros in most fractals.
What isn’t meta is more than 2 necros because it’s a complete waste.
3rd can be either ele or druid,
4th and 5th class are mesmer and warr.
Also you can epi bounce in almost every fractal.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Muffin Nook.5923

Muffin Nook.5923

And yet, I keep seeing parties forming in the lfg only looking for “condi reaper”. At times I join these

I enjoy necromancer as well, but I think there’s a lot of “lord of darkness bias” going on here and would really like it to stop so I can actually get things done

Simple solution: stop joining the groups looking for necros and form your own.
Most people are doing the reaper thing because they get sick and tired of the bearbows, warriors camping longbow or rifle, mesmers using gs, pistol/pistol thieves etc. When you join a pug group there is always at least one person who runs some special snowflake build that does absolutely nothing for the party. By limiting it to reaper only groups even if 2 or so people have mediocre builds/gear the remaining necro can complete the fractal(s) without it being a hard carry situation.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: FrostDraco.8306

FrostDraco.8306

And yet, I keep seeing parties forming in the lfg only looking for “condi reaper”. At times I join these

I enjoy necromancer as well, but I think there’s a lot of “lord of darkness bias” going on here and would really like it to stop so I can actually get things done

Simple solution: stop joining the groups looking for necros and form your own.
Most people are doing the reaper thing because they get sick and tired of the bearbows, warriors camping longbow or rifle, mesmers using gs, pistol/pistol thieves etc. When you join a pug group there is always at least one person who runs some special snowflake build that does absolutely nothing for the party. By limiting it to reaper only groups even if 2 or so people have mediocre builds/gear the remaining necro can complete the fractal(s) without it being a hard carry situation.

Since when is condi warrior with a longbow, LB ranger, P/P theif, or mesmer GS a ‘special snowflake’ build? P/P does crap loads of damage, but that’s all it does. It’s has no utility, which is why no one uses it.

Calling everything that isn’t listed at the top of the meta battle chart a snowflake build shows how disconnected you actually are. And condi reaper is the DEFINITION of not doing anything for the party. So that point can be thrown out.

Most people are doing the reaper thing because it’s easy. It has nothing to do with doing something ‘for the party’. And most of the new condi reapers can barely play the build right anyway, which means they aren’t as effective as they could be, because they lack the support of the classes that those builds were designed to be supported by.

(edited by FrostDraco.8306)

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Muffin Nook.5923

Muffin Nook.5923

And yet, I keep seeing parties forming in the lfg only looking for “condi reaper”. At times I join these

I enjoy necromancer as well, but I think there’s a lot of “lord of darkness bias” going on here and would really like it to stop so I can actually get things done

Simple solution: stop joining the groups looking for necros and form your own.
Most people are doing the reaper thing because they get sick and tired of the bearbows, warriors camping longbow or rifle, mesmers using gs, pistol/pistol thieves etc. When you join a pug group there is always at least one person who runs some special snowflake build that does absolutely nothing for the party. By limiting it to reaper only groups even if 2 or so people have mediocre builds/gear the remaining necro can complete the fractal(s) without it being a hard carry situation.

Since when is condi warrior with a longbow, LB ranger, P/P theif, or mesmer GS a ‘special snowflake’ build? P/P does crap loads of damage, but that’s all it does. It’s has no utility, which is why no one uses it.

Calling everything that isn’t listed at the top of the meta battle chart a snowflake build shows how disconnected you actually are. And condi reaper is the DEFINITION of not doing anything for the party. So that point can be thrown out.

Most people are doing the reaper thing because it’s easy. It has nothing to do with doing something ‘for the party’. And most of the new condi reapers can barely play the build right anyway, which means they aren’t as effective as they could be, because they lack the support of the classes that those builds were designed to be supported by.

I listed specific builds that pop up regularly in pugs and then stated that in the avg pug group you will get some special snowflake build. (such as guardian in full nomads running monk runes camping mace/shield) The Snowflakes vary and are usually so unremarkable I dont bother to remember them hence the label.

And as to the “for the party” comment:
Thats the main reason most of the pugs are asking for all necro. To be self sufficient, since you can’t trust that random chrono, or PS war to be running the right utilities or do their skill rotations. Since without the right utilities, proper skill rotations and traits there really is no reason for having these professions in your group anyway.
Most people when they want to run efficiently will hook up with friends or guildies and run a decent comp that they can trust to do their jobs.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Daddicus.6128

Daddicus.6128

I was kicked from a party because the other 4 players decided removing a chronomancer for a 5th necro was the “elite” and “meta”

I’m a big fan of my necro, but that’s really dumb. I’m a very good player with my necro, but I prefer having other classes in the pug to all necros.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Daddicus.6128

Daddicus.6128

However, Necros make them a mindless endeavor.

While I agree with the rest of your post, I wouldn’t call necros mindless. It’s certainly possible to play them poorly and screw the party.

There’s a difference between a decently-played necro and a poorly-played one. Aetherblade especially shows up the difference. They’re harder to kill, but the bad ones still go down eventually.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Tarasicodissa.7084

Tarasicodissa.7084

Did several runs with 4x Necro and me, the Druid.
Some went butter smooth because people knew their stuff and they were stacking (when possible)
Some went terribly bad, because everyone was running like mad and I could not get buffs or heals on every one of them, for one and like always, there are always more bad players then good ones.
IMHO, player skill trumps class.

100% agreed. I’ve found out that class matters very little in high level fractals. If someone’s bad, his (or others’) class can’t carry him. It usually comes down to personal skill.
This new trend of “necro only” has brought many bad players into T4, because they think they can cheeze their way through it without any effort. That’s not true. I’ve seen these “meta parties” fail horribly because they ignore mechanics or can’t even dodge properly. Then I finished those fractals way quicker in yolo parties of 3 warriors, because they at least knew how to play despite not having optimal party comp.
To be fair, there are some good necros out there as well, but pugging T4 has been more RNG now than ever and frankly I don’t even wanna pug anymore unless I have at least 2-3 guildies with me.
So yeah, player skill trumps class.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: insanemaniac.2456

insanemaniac.2456

lol

necro is optimal for fractals cuz as someone who posts lfgs, when I see a necro join my group I think “welp I don’t need to worry about this guy” even when he turns out to be a terribad. I can’t say the same about any other class, cuz other classes have to actually not be terribad for me to not think about kicking.

JQ: Rikkity
head here to discuss wvw without fear of infractions

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: TheShniper.1852

TheShniper.1852

In general condi is best for higher tier fractals. And having !Bleed stacks melts any boss. Id take 5 co di reapers iver any other classs any day lol

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: OriOri.8724

OriOri.8724

Friends- I understand that necromancer has “longevity” and that conditions are good in high toughness environments- but it is ridiculous that people assume a full team of necromancers is “optimal”. I was kicked from a party because the other 4 players decided removing a chronomancer for a 5th necro was the “elite” and “meta”

That was probably a party you didn’t want to be in. It sounds like it was full of toxic people

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Ging.6485

Ging.6485

However, Necros make them a mindless endeavor.

While I agree with the rest of your post, I wouldn’t call necros mindless. It’s certainly possible to play them poorly and screw the party.

There’s a difference between a decently-played necro and a poorly-played one. Aetherblade especially shows up the difference. They’re harder to kill, but the bad ones still go down eventually.

It’s probably because I have mained Engi for the entirety of me GW2 career, but in comparison Necroes are REALLY easy to play.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Alex Shatter.7956

Alex Shatter.7956

People want the rewards and would rather play safe than practice something hard and get better. I personality enjoy fighting for my life in a sense on zerk and feel a sense of pride coming out un-touched.

Saying this, there is alot more to nerco than what people pick up and use just to get the T4 rewards

the after-patch increase in AR availability (through money rather than fractal experience) probably thrust a lot of new players into t4s who don’t know how to hang

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Sarahfull.4930

Sarahfull.4930

People want the rewards and would rather play safe than practice something hard and get better. I personality enjoy fighting for my life in a sense on zerk and feel a sense of pride coming out un-touched.

Saying this, there is alot more to nerco than what people pick up and use just to get the T4 rewards

the after-patch increase in AR availability (through money rather than fractal experience) probably thrust a lot of new players into t4s who don’t know how to hang

Fair point! You reminded me of a PuG who told me: It would be waste of potential for her to do T3 bloom instead of T4 because they had 150 agony resistance

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: NovaanVerdiano.6174

NovaanVerdiano.6174

Friends- I understand that necromancer has “longevity” and that conditions are good in high toughness environments- but it is ridiculous that people assume a full team of necromancers is “optimal”. I was kicked from a party because the other 4 players decided removing a chronomancer for a 5th necro was the “elite” and “meta”

No use getting upset over stupid, you can’t beat it.

but can it be nipped in the bud? i wouldnt have taken the time to write a post about it if i didnt see it every day in the t4 lfg /sigh

The first problem here would be that you’re trying to talk to a portion of the playerbase which, for the most part, doesn’t read the forums in the first place, let alone the donjon sub.,

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Celeste Lightblade.9253

Celeste Lightblade.9253

Just had to jump into this…

While it’s true that necros on single targets don’t deal the ideal dps (still ranging in the higher ones especially when their minions die and trigger the poison-cloud) it’s all about the epidemic bouncing. You bounce a maximum of 25 conditions with each epidemic. Ever had 3-4 condition necros +1 PS and druid on the uncategorized fractal when fighting the shaman, grawl, bandit and bunny? Ball them on one point and start the epidemic bouncing. Everything dies within seconds (little exaggerated but you get the point). Epidemic allows us to stack several tens of stacks of poison, up to 200-230 stacks of bleeding (I usually see around 150-180 in my groups but more is possible) and here comes the kicker: It’s an AoE.
Even with a perfect and optimized zerg-group I highly doubt you could be a lot quicker than 3-4 condi necs, druid and PS (condi would be even better cause of burning stacks for epidemic).
The reason being: You’ll hardly get targeted by the boss-mechanics because your minions tank all the dmg. If you get hit you will take A LOT less dmg because of your toughness traitline. For example I usually have around 8-12 Minions (playing with Rise cause I want to trigger as many poison fields as possible) and I’m running full ascended viper gear. The Archdiviner on t4 fracs does around 5k when he hits me with his big swing, 7-8k when it crits. Normall you’d be close to a one hit.

And even if you were having bot necros in your group that do not know how to press the dodge button… You could simply let one necro in your group take the BM traitline for the life-siphon buff. It affects minions and minions heal their masters… Each hit heals for around 90 health and ppl have at least 6+ minions that atk every 3 seconds + you yourself attack aswell. It would take an incredible amount of stupidity to die while getting around 500+ health per second and having a reaper-shroud.

TL;DR – Viper necros provide high dmg with low skill when played with other necros (cause Epidemic does the trick) and are difficult to kill because of their high base HP (around 19kish?) + reaper shroud + Siphon buff. You can easily do t4 fracs in around 30 minutes or less (when it’s a reasonable combo and only includes one of the following fractals: cliffside/mai trin/chaos)
Optimized zerker groups could possibly be a little quicker but it’s so much easier to kitten up because you lack even more defense and it’s easy to lose your scholar buff

Greetz

Raphael Van Dona
Member of Snow Crows [SC]

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Oh Snapalope.1378

Oh Snapalope.1378

My static group does MT 100 4 necros 1 druid healer in 8 minutes. Find something that can beat that. You know why people kick chrono in t4?

Realistically chrono does only like 10k DPS and all the boons you give gets stolen. Then there’s that thing called armor scaling where power DPS drops by about 30% ?tested by a dnt friend). So you in total you do about 6-7k DPS and all your boons are stolen. It’s basically asking 4 people to carry you for a free ride.

(edited by Oh Snapalope.1378)

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Hesacon.8735

Hesacon.8735

TL;DR – Viper necros provide high dmg with low skill when played with other necros (cause Epidemic does the trick) and are difficult to kill because of their high base HP (around 19kish?) + reaper shroud + Siphon buff. You can easily do t4 fracs in around 30 minutes or less (when it’s a reasonable combo and only includes one of the following fractals: cliffside/mai trin/chaos)
Optimized zerker groups could possibly be a little quicker but it’s so much easier to kitten up because you lack even more defense and it’s easy to lose your scholar buff

Greetz

For what it’s worth, a power necro can also use epidemic with knowledge that another necro will overwrite the stacks and the damage will be done based on the second (condi) necro’s condition damage.

Realistically chrono does only like 10k DPS and all the boons you give gets stolen. Then there’s that thing called armor scaling where power DPS drops by about 30% ?tested by a dnt friend). So you in total you do about 6-7k DPS and all your boons are stolen. It’s basically asking 4 people to carry you for a free ride.

It’s fairly straightforward for a chrono to stack 20 stacks of confusion and torment on a single target, which ticks ~6-8k without any power-based damage or alacrity lowering the party’s cooldown and indirectly increasing DPS, all without being spec’d to generate boons.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Henry.5713

Henry.5713

It is a profession that does not only counter the high level mechanics like boon stealing, that is not too hard to play and rather tanky on top of that.

The things that end up happening are those that always happen whenever people switch to a supposed godly class in droves:
-The majority runs their necro much tankier than they would need to.
-Many simply love to point out how everyone else always dies while they stay alive to carry others.
-People quite often do not even manage to pull off half of what a an experienced player can.
-Others actually begin to dislike the profession for those reasons.

Personally, I run my druid in 100 MT if I feel like making things smooth and easy.

(edited by Henry.5713)

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Celeste Lightblade.9253

Celeste Lightblade.9253

For what it’s worth, a power necro can also use epidemic with knowledge that another necro will overwrite the stacks and the damage will be done based on the second (condi) necro’s condition damage.

You seem to miss the fact that Epidemic uses the casters condition-dmg (but not condition-duration). So using epidemic with a power-nec is like throwing a small grape against someones head: Annoying but doesn’t do kitten.

Raphael Van Dona
Member of Snow Crows [SC]

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Hesacon.8735

Hesacon.8735

For what it’s worth, a power necro can also use epidemic with knowledge that another necro will overwrite the stacks and the damage will be done based on the second (condi) necro’s condition damage.

You seem to miss the fact that Epidemic uses the casters condition-dmg (but not condition-duration). So using epidemic with a power-nec is like throwing a small grape against someones head: Annoying but doesn’t do kitten.

If another condi player puts 1 stack of bleed/whatever on top of the epidemic’d stack, it becomes their stack based on their condition damage.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: aelfwe.4239

aelfwe.4239

My static group does MT 100 4 necros 1 druid healer in 8 minutes. Find something that can beat that. You know why people kick chrono in t4?

Realistically chrono does only like 10k DPS and all the boons you give gets stolen. Then there’s that thing called armor scaling where power DPS drops by about 30% ?tested by a dnt friend). So you in total you do about 6-7k DPS and all your boons are stolen. It’s basically asking 4 people to carry you for a free ride.

-In a 5 men enviroment, like fotm, chrono can hold alacrity up to nearly 100% uptime.

-Alacrity isnt a boon, it’s a buff and it CANNOT be stolen.

-A necromancer with alacrity do around 18% more dmg compared to a necromancer without alacrity (viper necro ofc). Druid, depending on build up to 21%. condie ps up to 26%.

-Alacrity allow druid to easily hold up more gotl stack aka more dmg.

Result:

even without any personal dmg at all, and without even taking into consideration quickness, a chrono just properly stacking alacrity is a dps upgrade compared to take the 4th necro in a team where you have already 3 necro 1 druid.

Same it goes for condie ps vs the 3rd necro. Without epidemic bounce on a standard tough target viper necro do between 20%-30% less dmg if compared to top power dmg build (thief ele etc).

But power based build lose around 30% vs higher fotm.

So adding in the equation epidemic bounce, 2 necros outdps every power build.

The issue here is that epidemic is capped to 25 stack/kind of condition so the multiplicative effect do not grow putting a 3rd necro in the team (cause 2 necro are enought to cap the epidemic bounce of bleed).

Ps war bring burning instead, that end up to grow even more the epidemic bounce effect of the 2 necros. Add onto this banner\buff and go.

This bring up where the optimal composition dps wise if you would go for some record in high level fotm should be: 1 condie ps 1 condie druid 2 viper necro 1 chrono.

So why pugs go for 4 necroes and 1 druid?

Because pugs do not care about record or optimal composition.

Pugs care about do their daily as fast as possible where fast means to wipe less as possibile xD

So since finding good chrono throug lfg is hard and bad mesmer are bringing a lot less of bad necros, and same it goes for condie ps, then people just go for the faster AND safer option: 4 necro 1 druid.

That is not an absurd or bad choice, as your time show off.

But it’s not even the “best” setup to go if you are interested on min maxing xD

Aelfwe Dark Asura Mesmer\Thief,
FREE PYRO

(edited by aelfwe.4239)

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Bohantopa.5729

Bohantopa.5729

If another condi player puts 1 stack of bleed/whatever on top of the epidemic’d stack, it becomes their stack based on their condition damage.

Quite wrong. The condition damage of the caster is used and conditions applied via epidemic hits are “owned” by that caster. Conditions do not change ownership (otherwise every randomly applied bleed (ice bow #4 ie) would destroy a necros ability to deal damage in raids).

The issue here is that epidemic is capped to 25 stack/kind of condition so the multiplicative effect do not grow putting a 3rd necro in the team (cause 2 necro are enought to cap the epidemic bounce of bleed).

The first part is correct, a single use of epidemic is capped at 25/kind, but you can have 1 necro epidemic the boss (25 stack on add) and both/all other necros epidemic the add resulting in each epidemic sending back 25 stack/kind.
This might not be multiplicative but you make it sound like a 3rd necro should not use epi because it would not help. It would need to be calculated how much burning is necessary to make up for a 25 stack of bleed (due to a swap from 1 necro to a condition ps). I believe there was a number somewhere but I just cant find it.

Necro not optimal for fractals

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: aelfwe.4239

aelfwe.4239

The issue here is that epidemic is capped to 25 stack/kind of condition so the multiplicative effect do not grow putting a 3rd necro in the team (cause 2 necro are enought to cap the epidemic bounce of bleed).

The first part is correct, a single use of epidemic is capped at 25/kind, but you can have 1 necro epidemic the boss (25 stack on add) and both/all other necros epidemic the add resulting in each epidemic sending back 25 stack/kind.
This might not be multiplicative but you make it sound like a 3rd necro should not use epi because it would not help. It would need to be calculated how much burning is necessary to make up for a 25 stack of bleed (due to a swap from 1 necro to a condition ps). I believe there was a number somewhere but I just cant find it.

In fact i told the 3rd necroes it’s not moltiplicative

It’s just additive.

And i’ve never told the 3rd necroes should not cast epidemic.

I told the 3rd necro bounce do not add dmg to the other 2 necroes due to epidemic stack cap.

I’d make it easyer: i taking qt benchmark real enviroment (no alacrity) to have some numbers.

On a party (5 men) enviroment these numbers are lower due to the absence of rev and chrono quick etc but it will work the same to make you undestand.

Case 1:
- 5 men party with 1 single necro named A (no option to bounce epidemic):

Necro A dmg: 24k

Case 2:
- 5 men party with 2 necro named A and B (epidemic bounce)

Necro A dmg: 28k
Necro B dmg: 28k

Case 3:
-5 men party with 3 necros named A, B, C (epidemic bounce)

Necro A dmg: 28k
Necro B dmg: 28k
Necro C dmg: 28k

As you can see in the case 1 the necro A dmg is 24k.

As soon as you put in party the second necro (Case 2) you will obtain these two result:

You will multiplicate the dmg of the necro A for a factor due to epidemic (from 24k to 28k) and you add the dmg of the 2nd necro multiplicated from the same factor (28k)

Adding the 3rd necro (Case 3) simply add the necro C dmg but do not change the Necro A & B dmg as the Addition of Necro B has done over Necro A dmg.

So it’s just additive and no more multiplicative.

To increase Necro A\B dmg you have to put some class that stack different kind of condition, for example burning —> condie war (it also give you banner of strenght aka more condition dmg --> around 5% dmg addition to necroes in team).

Anyway about

I believe there was a number somewhere but I just cant find it.

Here’s the number you’re looking for:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/4vivo3/calculating_the_value_of_epidemic/

And this is wrong:

It would need to be calculated how much burning is necessary to make up for a 25 stack of bleed (due to a swap from 1 necro to a condition ps)

You have NOT to exchange 25 stack of bleed with 20 stack of burning.

You have to take base buffed necro dmg (24k for example), and you add into it epidemic result with just bleed. Finally you moltiplicate the result x3.

Then you have to take base buffed necro dmg (again 24k), you add into it epidemic result with bleed AND burning and you multipliclate it x2. Finally you add into result condie ps war buffed personal dmg.

You should also add to overall dmg the effect of the additional war banners and buff (might) to the druid and to the 5th member

Then Compare.

After that if you aint have an headache you can even compare the chrono alacrity effect +2 necro\1 condie ps\1 druid vs 3 necro\1 condie ps\1 druid without alacrity xD

Aelfwe Dark Asura Mesmer\Thief,
FREE PYRO

(edited by aelfwe.4239)