Guild Wars 2

Top notch design guys =D Please go forward with making “hard mode” challenge motes in future releases, this was a great design choice.

Some guildies an I went for it today. We did lvl 100 first and got all the achievements there. The design is absolutely spectacular. Less focus on mobs and 3 fantastic bossfights instead. Absolutely adored lvl 100. Good amount of challenge without it becoming too difficult. The achievements on lvl 100 definitely added some spice to the fights.

After we had everything we went for the Challenge mode. Thinking it would be a bit harder but nothing too bad. Boy were we wrong. Took us 4 hours to get through it all, but it was superb fun. It’s definitely as difficult as a raid. Far more difficult if we’re talking about individual responsability like dodging. Think i used my dodges about a million times today. This is some of the PvE content people have been waiting for, for a long time. I can hardly say how impressed i am with your work.

Last thing, music in the encounters was fantastic aswell.

Good job guys.. this is very cleverly made for fractal
More of this update now and then please!!

One of the best dungeon type encounters I have faced. Truly an awesome experience.

You guys deserve so much respect and love.

Thank you so much for something this great

Amazing

GoldenTruth.2853:

If you didn’t know already you can jump over the orbs without taking damage.

Can you really?? Huh. That would definitely make the fight a lot easier. I must try that out the next time I’m in Nightmare.

The jump over orb don’t get damage not very forgiving for people with 400-600 ping though I’m looking into countering it in a different way.

Absurdo.8309:

Randulf.7614:

I am disappointed it’s a lvl 25 fractal+. Thaumonova when it released gave a grace period of being to just go in experience it. The highest any of my guild is lvl 20 in fractals, so we gathered together in advance to do it…only to find it shut out to us.

Really hoped we could at least experience it straight off the bat for t1 at least once.

I am looking forward to at least getting to it though after hearing all these great things!

I’m sure anyone in lfg would be willing to open it for you if you still want to try it.

I did think of that, but in the end we just decided to play and unlock as many levels as we could. Will be next week before we’re all back online to try it. It’s not the end of the World really, but it would be my feedback to have new fractals more accessible for maybe the first week or 2 of release.

lol I think the gw2 developers played too much Touhou games to have come up with this fractal.

Yes. This is the real 100 fractal. Less trash more mechanics. It was great. We tried it on release and the final boss was near impossible. Tried it 12 hours later and got full clear and all achieves. It was a kittening challenge 10/10

Ye for me this was eerily reminiscent of that Nightmare Begins living story from years ago.. I felt like it wasn’t brand new for that reason in itself but yeah they made it unique.. May have same skins for most but they went a whole nother direction on it. /salute

Been thinking abt that end boss name tho.. Ensolyss.. always thot that weird name even 1st time I saw it. So dunno but made me think of some hidden meaning, like anagram and stuff.. came up with ‘Sly One’ (drop the ss at end) and one almost-anagram that was like an aha moment.. ‘Lessons’ which actually fits I guess.. since that fite is actually a lesson in frustration initally. The hardest lesson to learn for me is that orb phase.. since it took me long time to figure it out. Good that it insta-revives u after its over tho.. almost like the devs knew and planned ahead heh

Excellent fractal!!

The objectives were pretty straightforward and the bosses were challenging. Best fractal yet!

11/10

Did it T4 yesterday, first time. And I must say: I was a bit surprised by the phases. Really love that the different phases really feel like a progression in the fight.
What really freaked me out was: 15% mark! Hell, the whole party, at the beginning, was surprised, one died at once, the rest got it down to 2%.
Fun times!

Didnt care for achis at first try! ^^ Will do them later.
Anyway: Great fractal!!

You did an awesome job, this is the way to continue guys.

Fractals and pve raids are really a good content in this game. Thumbs up !

The hard mode was better than I expected, it was a lot of fun! Having raid-quality encounters in the fractal is amazing, and these bosses were actually more fun than some raid encounters, really good job on this fractal hard mode!

I also like that there is an achievement and exclusive weapon skins and title for those who manage to complete the hard mode, it is always fun to show off some prestige of having beaten something hard.

First time doing it was the T4 yesterday. Great fractal. Not much to it up until the last boss though, but that was quite a fun fight.

I love you guys. I love this new approach you’re taking with fractals and including hard mode there was genius. The fights, the bosses, the mechanics, love everything about it.
Now for the parts I think can be improved on.

• Once you unlock the challenge mote, make it aware for the player. Don’t make it a sneak secret feature. Reveal it with a boom.

• Make challenge mote agony free. Not as in remove the agony effects, but remove the agony resistance. I think you should be allowed to play different characters just for challenge mote without the requirement of having 150 AR. Maybe provide an aura that gives you 150 AR.

• You should only be able to access challenge mote after you’ve completed all the achievements. So you can’t just taxi on someone that has already completed them and has an open instance.

• Guys.. come on. I’m sure you can be a bit more generous with the daily loot from completing challenge mode

Rock on guys and make Fractals great again!

I normally don`t post anything on the forums, but since the feedback to this fractal is so overwhelmingly positive, I just felt the need to say sth. about it, as I feel that maybe the majority of the gw2 players doesn`t feel the same about it as the people voicing their thoughts in this forum.

First of all: I like doing fractals, it maybe is the content I like most about GW2. I do t4 dailies pretty much every day, as they are doable within a reasonable timeframe and give decent rewards – unlike a lot of other content in the game.
I consider myself a pretty decent player and I like content that is challenging to some extent, I am not interested in steamrolling everything and being given rewards for free. But: Although I am in a guild, I often like to pug t4 fractals because after a long day at work with a lot of talking I don`t feel like using ts to coordinate with my mates. I guess that for a lot of other gw2 players this is pretty much the same. I am sure this fractal is easily doable within a coordinated guild group, but if the precondition of having a premade group is notfulfilled, you might have massive problems clearing t4 dailies now. With pug groups you are so dependent on luck with the mates you get, that this type of content is simply not reliably doable anymore. You might get lucky and just get it done quickly, but you also might get 5 groups in a row that play the downstate rota.
Generally, there is nothing wrong about content that requires premades, like raids, but why does that type of content have to be injected into “normal” fractals now? Make it live somewhere else, like raids do, make this type of fractals t5 fractals, whatever. But currently Anet is basically taking sth. that existed before (reliably doable t4 dailies) from a lot of players instead of just adding sth. on top for people who want more challenging content. To me, although I am not negatively impacted directly by this, this is not the right direction to take. The design of the fractal is raidlike, it is the next step in the evolution of new content catering mainly to the elitists within gw2 that want harder and harder content, gating desirable rewards behind requirements the majority of the playerbase can`t fulfill.

Now let the hate begin, hit me with all the good stuff, like “Your English is bad”, “Just do t3 dailies”, “You probably are way worse than you think you are”, “git gud”, “I easily pugged this like 100 times yesterday” and so on ..

TheThriGG.2638:

I normally don`t post anything on the forums, but since the feedback to this fractal is so overwhelmingly positive, I just felt the need to say sth. about it, as I feel that maybe the majority of the gw2 players doesn`t feel the same about it as the people voicing their thoughts in this forum.

First of all: I like doing fractals, it maybe is the content I like most about GW2. I do t4 dailies pretty much every day, as they are doable within a reasonable timeframe and give decent rewards – unlike a lot of other content in the game.
I consider myself a pretty decent player and I like content that is challenging to some extent, I am not interested in steamrolling everything and being given rewards for free. But: Although I am in a guild, I often like to pug t4 fractals because after a long day at work with a lot of talking I don`t feel like using ts to coordinate with my mates. I guess that for a lot of other gw2 players this is pretty much the same. I am sure this fractal is easily doable within a coordinated guild group, but if the precondition of having a premade group is notfulfilled, you might have massive problems clearing t4 dailies now. With pug groups you are so dependent on luck with the mates you get, that this type of content is simply not reliably doable anymore. You might get lucky and just get it done quickly, but you also might get 5 groups in a row that play the downstate rota.
Generally, there is nothing wrong about content that requires premades, like raids, but why does that type of content have to be injected into “normal” fractals now? Make it live somewhere else, like raids do, make this type of fractals t5 fractals, whatever. But currently Anet is basically taking sth. that existed before (reliably doable t4 dailies) from a lot of players instead of just adding sth. on top for people who want more challenging content. To me, although I am not negatively impacted directly by this, this is not the right direction to take. The design of the fractal is raidlike, it is the next step in the evolution of new content catering mainly to the elitists within gw2 that want harder and harder content, gating desirable rewards behind requirements the majority of the playerbase can`t fulfill.

Now let the hate begin, hit me with all the good stuff, like “Your English is bad”, “Just do t3 dailies”, “You probably are way worse than you think you are”, “git gud”, “I easily pugged this like 100 times yesterday” and so on ..

Your English is bad,
Go do t3 fractals,
Git Gud.

But seriously, having trouble with the fractal difficulty? GO DO A LOWER ONE! That is why fractals have tiers!
You proposed a t5 difficulty, how is that different from what we have? if they ad t5 you (or other people that only want easy rewards) will complain t5 is too hard and there should be t6!
This is one of the most pointless comments on this posts, the Nightmare fractal is probably the best 5 man content we had in this game, keep the good work Anet.

Absolutely love the new fractal, The bullet storm part and especially the end boss fight, When that soft music comes on midfight and he starts talking to you in a demonic voice, That was a big wow moment for me, It felt really cinematic. You guys did a great job on it.

I love the new fractal.
A lot of fun, interesting mechanics, a good challenge.

I’m excited to see more fights like this in he future.

TheThriGG.2638:

I normally don`t post anything on the forums, but since the feedback to this fractal is so overwhelmingly positive, I just felt the need to say sth. about it, as I feel that maybe the majority of the gw2 players doesn`t feel the same about it as the people voicing their thoughts in this forum.

First of all: I like doing fractals, it maybe is the content I like most about GW2. I do t4 dailies pretty much every day, as they are doable within a reasonable timeframe and give decent rewards – unlike a lot of other content in the game.
I consider myself a pretty decent player and I like content that is challenging to some extent, I am not interested in steamrolling everything and being given rewards for free. But: Although I am in a guild, I often like to pug t4 fractals because after a long day at work with a lot of talking I don`t feel like using ts to coordinate with my mates. I guess that for a lot of other gw2 players this is pretty much the same. I am sure this fractal is easily doable within a coordinated guild group, but if the precondition of having a premade group is notfulfilled, you might have massive problems clearing t4 dailies now. With pug groups you are so dependent on luck with the mates you get, that this type of content is simply not reliably doable anymore. You might get lucky and just get it done quickly, but you also might get 5 groups in a row that play the downstate rota.
Generally, there is nothing wrong about content that requires premades, like raids, but why does that type of content have to be injected into “normal” fractals now? Make it live somewhere else, like raids do, make this type of fractals t5 fractals, whatever. But currently Anet is basically taking sth. that existed before (reliably doable t4 dailies) from a lot of players instead of just adding sth. on top for people who want more challenging content. To me, although I am not negatively impacted directly by this, this is not the right direction to take. The design of the fractal is raidlike, it is the next step in the evolution of new content catering mainly to the elitists within gw2 that want harder and harder content, gating desirable rewards behind requirements the majority of the playerbase can`t fulfill.

Now let the hate begin, hit me with all the good stuff, like “Your English is bad”, “Just do t3 dailies”, “You probably are way worse than you think you are”, “git gud”, “I easily pugged this like 100 times yesterday” and so on ..

It was the same with chaos and swamp…and still same thing can happen….suffice to say i usually play magi druid when pugging these fractals so chances of failure drop drastically. Same with new fractal, i either grab dedicated healer for pugs or run with guildies.

Still the fractal is a success as quality content even if it takes longer to complete. I imagine it will get a lot easier with time, people are still learning and adjusting.

Awesome fractal. The mechanics are really nice.
My group killed the shark in a funny way. We were 4 Tempests and 1 Guardian. We sacrificed the guardian by making him get the aggro and staying downed in the water while we were on land chaining our Glyph of Storm in earth to maintain blindness keeping him alive and killing the shark at the same time.

skarpak.8594:

Randulf.7614:

I am disappointed it’s a lvl 25 fractal+. Thaumonova when it released gave a grace period of being to just go in experience it. The highest any of my guild is lvl 20 in fractals, so we gathered together in advance to do it…only to find it shut out to us.

Really hoped we could at least experience it straight off the bat for t1 at least once.

I am looking forward to at least getting to it though after hearing all these great things!

if you have the agony resistance, just search for an opener incase nobody has level 25 or more and just play it.

but depending on your level of play, level 25 is not as much fun as level 100.
at least my group did it on level 25 after beating 100 just to see the difference and the only thing that happend at every boss was: direct cc, dmg him to the next phase / kill it.
bosses couldn’t even do 1 attack.

bosses could take a bit off a hp buff on level 25. :P

I strongly disagree. Especially in light of the Behind the Scenes video that was just released. T1 fractals are supposed to be easy, to get people used to fighting stronger, tougher mobs with some harder mechanics. They aren’t designed to be punishing at all. By buffing the T1 bosses you risk pushing those new players away, which is stupid considering you already have your challenge at lvl100 if you want a challenge.

Besides, newer players aren’t fully decked out in gear. They don’t have all ascended gear, they don’t have the +might infusions, they don’t have 5 stacks of every fractal potion (which is a 25% decrease in damage overall). Most of them don’t run food, and a lot of them are still trying to figure out how to play their class well and effectively. Its not any sort of comparison at all to talk about your times as an experienced group who can clear the challenge mote on scale 100 and then talk about the people who T1 is designed for. For these people T1 bosses are in a really good place right now, and they aren’t burned through each phase before they can get an attack off.

So I’ve been doing fractals for about 2.5 years on its highest difficulty if you don’t include breaks I’ve taken from the game…

And the level 100 challange mote was, is, the best experience I’ve had doing fractals ever. This is what tier 4, 76-100 all should be like. If the daily was 2 fractals of this difficulty I’d be happy. (3 would be too long).

For the first time a PvE content has brought awareness and dodging key attacks to such a rewarding level and in such a strong way into the game.

Most (if not all) of the other T4 fractals are too prone to people getting carried even though they very partially know or play around the mechanics (I see this in PuGs all the time). This difficulty of content actually forces every single member of the party to prove valuable.

Some people would argue it’d be too difficult, but fractals have tiers for a reason. You could increase the rewards for all tiers accordingly and make T4 as challanging as the challange mote, to actually be as they’re supposed to be, for masters of the content. It’s called Master tier after all

Anyway this probably won’t be done, because people want to feel the best that they’re doing T4s when they’re often carried. I would not mind needing to improve myself if it turns to be needed.

Regardless, amazing job. I had a lot of fun. Give me more of this

At last! This gets what this game should feel like!!

I love this! This should be what dungeons should be!

I would love large explorable dungeons with bosses like this.

Completed it today, can’t wait to go into challenge mode with a good group!

I also like figuring out how to beat the bosses without somebody already releasing a meta guide on how to do it.

More things like this, please.

PS I personally wish raids were 5man.

This fractal is really punishing for players in Asia and Oceania who have ping of 250+, the shockwaves and the orbs hit them before they even reach the players which make the fractal near impossible to clear. Anet please do something about this ping problem, if not, then it is best to remove the shockwave or the stupid healing reduction from the Agony that nobody asked for, there’s already poison for that.

This is less about nightmare, but more about mechanics in general.

If things are meant to be projectiles, then player skills that manipulate them need to matter/be more relevant.

It’s just something i’ve notice that we have skills that are inconsistent where they can be destroyed and not reflected (either make this a different effect / tell) or just make all enemy projectiles function the same when against player skills.

TheThriGG.2638:

.

Mmm.. no.
This is a very clever fix to fractal. With challenge mode if the daily rewards improve, we will see ppl farming it daily.

Liked the challenge a lot but I’m just sad it doesn’t feel like you’re ascending the Tower of Nightmare like the original one, the view from the top of the final spire was too good not to have it in this fractal.

TheThriGG.2638:

I normally don`t post anything on the forums, but since the feedback to this fractal is so overwhelmingly positive, I just felt the need to say sth. about it, as I feel that maybe the majority of the gw2 players doesn`t feel the same about it as the people voicing their thoughts in this forum.

First of all: I like doing fractals, it maybe is the content I like most about GW2. I do t4 dailies pretty much every day, as they are doable within a reasonable timeframe and give decent rewards – unlike a lot of other content in the game.
I consider myself a pretty decent player and I like content that is challenging to some extent, I am not interested in steamrolling everything and being given rewards for free. But: Although I am in a guild, I often like to pug t4 fractals because after a long day at work with a lot of talking I don`t feel like using ts to coordinate with my mates. I guess that for a lot of other gw2 players this is pretty much the same. I am sure this fractal is easily doable within a coordinated guild group, but if the precondition of having a premade group is notfulfilled, you might have massive problems clearing t4 dailies now. With pug groups you are so dependent on luck with the mates you get, that this type of content is simply not reliably doable anymore. You might get lucky and just get it done quickly, but you also might get 5 groups in a row that play the downstate rota.
Generally, there is nothing wrong about content that requires premades, like raids, but why does that type of content have to be injected into “normal” fractals now? Make it live somewhere else, like raids do, make this type of fractals t5 fractals, whatever. But currently Anet is basically taking sth. that existed before (reliably doable t4 dailies) from a lot of players instead of just adding sth. on top for people who want more challenging content. To me, although I am not negatively impacted directly by this, this is not the right direction to take. The design of the fractal is raidlike, it is the next step in the evolution of new content catering mainly to the elitists within gw2 that want harder and harder content, gating desirable rewards behind requirements the majority of the playerbase can`t fulfill.

Now let the hate begin, hit me with all the good stuff, like “Your English is bad”, “Just do t3 dailies”, “You probably are way worse than you think you are”, “git gud”, “I easily pugged this like 100 times yesterday” and so on ..

Did the100 tier and challenge, completed both and have to say I agree with you.
Although the fractal itself was enjoyable I am tired of seeing every content turning into hardcore content when both casuals and hardcores paid the same price for the expansion and none should be missing out on rewards. It is a game and not an obligation, people should not miss out on skins and things that already existed because they prefer an easier game.

Anet should just add a Tier 5 for harder fractals, yielding more liquid gold rewards and that would be it. Gating skins and turning old existing farming ways, suddenly inaccessible to most, because they decided after 3 years to perform a total U-turn on their mentality, is a bad strategy.

nanael the angel.2659:

TheThriGG.2638:

I normally don`t post anything on the forums, but since the feedback to this fractal is so overwhelmingly positive, I just felt the need to say sth. about it, as I feel that maybe the majority of the gw2 players doesn`t feel the same about it as the people voicing their thoughts in this forum.

First of all: I like doing fractals, it maybe is the content I like most about GW2. I do t4 dailies pretty much every day, as they are doable within a reasonable timeframe and give decent rewards – unlike a lot of other content in the game.
I consider myself a pretty decent player and I like content that is challenging to some extent, I am not interested in steamrolling everything and being given rewards for free. But: Although I am in a guild, I often like to pug t4 fractals because after a long day at work with a lot of talking I don`t feel like using ts to coordinate with my mates. I guess that for a lot of other gw2 players this is pretty much the same. I am sure this fractal is easily doable within a coordinated guild group, but if the precondition of having a premade group is notfulfilled, you might have massive problems clearing t4 dailies now. With pug groups you are so dependent on luck with the mates you get, that this type of content is simply not reliably doable anymore. You might get lucky and just get it done quickly, but you also might get 5 groups in a row that play the downstate rota.
Generally, there is nothing wrong about content that requires premades, like raids, but why does that type of content have to be injected into “normal” fractals now? Make it live somewhere else, like raids do, make this type of fractals t5 fractals, whatever. But currently Anet is basically taking sth. that existed before (reliably doable t4 dailies) from a lot of players instead of just adding sth. on top for people who want more challenging content. To me, although I am not negatively impacted directly by this, this is not the right direction to take. The design of the fractal is raidlike, it is the next step in the evolution of new content catering mainly to the elitists within gw2 that want harder and harder content, gating desirable rewards behind requirements the majority of the playerbase can`t fulfill.

Now let the hate begin, hit me with all the good stuff, like “Your English is bad”, “Just do t3 dailies”, “You probably are way worse than you think you are”, “git gud”, “I easily pugged this like 100 times yesterday” and so on ..

Did the100 tier and challenge, completed both and have to say I agree with you.
Although the fractal itself was enjoyable I am tired of seeing every content turning into hardcore content when both casuals and hardcores paid the same price for the expansion and none should be missing out on rewards. It is a game and not an obligation, people should not miss out on skins and things that already existed because they prefer an easier game.

Anet should just add a Tier 5 for harder fractals, yielding more liquid gold rewards and that would be it. Gating skins and turning old existing farming ways, suddenly inaccessible to most, because they decided after 3 years to perform a total U-turn on their mentality, is a bad strategy.

I disagree. You guys are acting as if this fractal is locked off from the average player because it has a challenge mote that is insanely hard. But it isn’t. Everyone is free to do the fractal without doing the challenge mote. Everyone is free to do lower tiers if they can’t do the master tier. This content isn’t locked behind a “git gud” wall like you are proclaiming it to be. Its available to everyone, and from what I hear its a great way to get ready for raids by having practice in a more forgiving environment.

If every fractal was as beautifully done as this one and the new swamp fractal I don’t think I’d ever stop doing fractals

Is the “Event Reward” you get from beating it the 1st time a “daily”?

You get daily reward chests for each boss in cm f100

@OriOri.8724

First of all, the challenge mote is not insanely hard for coordinated groups, it probably is for casual players that pug right away after coming home from work however.

Secondly,T4 fractals were a joke until some more recent revamps, and pretty much anyone could pug them quickly and with a minimum of effort. Now, many casuals are unable to even finish some T4 fractals, let alone run them quickly.
When something that was available to everyone for over a year (count 3+ years since fotm existed) suddenly becomes impossible to do for those lacking time, then it is being locked according to my logic, for these people. It’s not something new added, it’s a change of existing direction.

Moreover, had you done the new fractal you’d know there are skins gated behind it, some for completing the regular achievements and even a normal scale 100 mode, and some for the challenge mote.
Skins which are locked forever, like the raiding skins for the more casual folk, when fractals used to be a place for everyone.

In the end, you are entitled to your opinion approving of all this, and I am entitled to mine disliking this direction and mentality-change Anet is going through, we both have the right to share it on these forums and that’s that.

@nanael

This is a NEW Fractal, it didn’t replace any content unlike some other content we’ve had come into play (cough TA Aether cough).

The challenge mote is completely optional as it is not a requirement for 100. It’s an addition to the content that anyone can participate in as long as they have an adequate amount of experience in the current regular version of the fractal.

Fractals are still a place for everyone, everyone can still do them and get rewarded appropriately to the level of the fractal itself. This hasn’t changed in the slightest. You are free to disapprove of opinions, but don’t twist the facts here.

nanael the angel.2659:

Secondly,T4 fractals were a joke until some more recent revamps, and pretty much anyone could pug them quickly and with a minimum of effort. Now, many casuals are unable to even finish some T4 fractals, let alone run them quickly.
When something that was available to everyone for over a year

Exactly “over a year”. Fractals on the highest scale were never meant to be easy and faceroll like the last 12 months. Back in the past, you have rarely found a group within 1-2 minutes on scale 50, nowadays – even with the recent revamps and patches – you still find a group within seconds to a minute.
The changes brought fractals back to where they belong, nothing else.

And I have to disagree, a necro party or mixed party with necros doesn’t have any problems although it’s not the fastest.
My experiences from the last days/weeks are that I have noticed more players that have no clue about the mechanics of the fracs than struggling with instabilities or too much dmg from mobs/bosses. I think there is a critical mass at the doors of T4 now since fractals have become more popular due to being easier with elite specs. These guys have rushed through and now they are realizing that they cannot execute simple things under a lot more pressure.

Sykper.6583:

@nanael

This is a NEW Fractal, it didn’t replace any content unlike some other content we’ve had come into play (cough TA Aether cough).

The challenge mote is completely optional as it is not a requirement for 100. It’s an addition to the content that anyone can participate in as long as they have an adequate amount of experience in the current regular version of the fractal.

Fractals are still a place for everyone, everyone can still do them and get rewarded appropriately to the level of the fractal itself. This hasn’t changed in the slightest. You are free to disapprove of opinions, but don’t twist the facts here.

Oh but it did replace something actually…
The swamp fractal got buffed, hence I have a lot of friends who skip this T4-swamp now.
This new fractal, while new indeed, did actually replace one of the previously existing T4 fractals in the T4 category (check wiki for the categories).
And you know what? If nothing changes and an extra tier is not added, every new fractal will be replacing the ones on the T4 category, that have multiple levels.
Meaning for example that if previously in 2 days someone could clear 3 and 3 T4 fractals, now most casual folks bother with 2 and 2, and so on…

As it stands now when I see guildies and friends claiming they are missing out on T4 rewards due to a spike in difficulty, and ponder if they’ll slowly end up being pushed out of farming T4 casually as they used to, I can’t help but agree with them.

nanael the angel.2659:

Oh but it did replace something actually…
The swamp fractal got buffed, hence I have a lot of friends who skip this T4-swamp now.

I fail to see how voluntarily refusing to take part in the revamped Swamp Fractal, which by the way has been out since the Summer, has anything to do with replacement?

nanael the angel.2659:

This new fractal, while new indeed, did actually replace one of the previously existing T4 fractals in the T4 category (check wiki for the categories).

Although I don’t have screenshots of the previous T4 setup (with Chaos included mind you, funny how no one wants to complain about that one), Chaos took over every 25th slot which was Mai Trin, whom seems to be at 73 and 98 respectively at T3/4. This however, does not replace any ‘T4’ fractals, there are 25 levels per tier, there are not 25 different fractals yet.

nanael the angel.2659:

And you know what? If nothing changes and an extra tier is not added, every new fractal will be replacing the ones on the T4 category, that have multiple levels.

That’s likely intentional, and I’m open for discussing having ‘variances’ of the same fractal at a certain tier in some other thread. But there has been no full replacement of a T4 fractal.

nanael the angel.2659:

As it stands now when I see guildies and friends claiming they are missing out on T4 rewards due to a spike in difficulty, and ponder if they’ll slowly end up being pushed out of farming T4 casually as they used to, I can’t help but agree with them.

This here is the main root, and something I want to address. Arenanet has made it explicitly clear for months that they intend on making Fractals their “5 Man Endgame”. T4 fractals or another term, the ‘hardest iterations of the fractals’, were farmed for years, not difficult in the least. They are slowly fixing this issue that you are clearly aware of, yet call implementing challenge back to the T4 iteration ‘problematic’.

You and your “casual” friends might outright reject this turn of events, but it is a direction that isn’t new nor completely unwanted. There has been a cry for years for the kind of content that Nightmare has delivered, and there’s already been a basis in this thread showing overwhelming support for the level of engagement the new fractal has brought.

Have your casual friends tried the T1 iteration just for fun? Have you even suggested to them to maybe try easier tiers first, get those rewards and some experience and see if it helps them develop the skillset needed for T4? There has been a lot of complaints in this forum to say the least from players who frankly would rather talk rather than do, it is absurd to see players raise their pitchforks without trying.

really really enjoyed the challenge mote, looking forward to more

insanemaniac.2456:

really really enjoyed the challenge mote, looking forward to more

Same here lol it gets easier and easier I can sort of overcome red orbs during phase at final boss now even with 400-600 avg ping lol it’s so so fun 5men content. Enjoyed with pugs.
Looking forward for more of this fractal and harder with better reward too pls .. I used all my relic to get the infinite potions :p need to get them back somehow.
F100 cm will be my daily now xD

I totaly agree with TheThriGG and nanael the angel. Also in GW2 we are not free to do something or dont, we are forced to do something, i dont like fractals and raids, they are very hard and borring. When i return from work i want a game to make me feel nice and not stressful. I go for Ad Infinitum for example and I must do t4 and some t3 on challenge mote… ok right… its impossible to complete some challenge motes with pugs (volcanic for example). By making a game hardcore is because you can not do anything else, gw2 has awful story, the 90% of its skins are awful, awful farming methods and very op mobs in the expansion. By making gamers to play the way anet or ncsoft wants its not game its totaly dictatoric. Dont listening to the living dead supposed hardcore gamers because they cant even do t1 fractal or even to kill an ambient creature, but they pretend the happy ones to act like hardcore masters… Once i did the the nightmare fractal i said…. hmm its totaly a waste of time, awful skins and still hardcore. You must consider that if the casual gamers leave from gw2, the game is going to die. We dont care neither for a hardcore game neither for a stuff that dont count us. You must also check gw2’s ranks among others mmos. Once i complete ad infinitum I will leave the game because everything are so hard and its totaly boring that and also if suddenly ad infinitum become more difficult to get i will abandon the game too. If you want to attract ppl then make it easy or normal, ad difficulty options BUT not skin rewards for it or to “force” players to choose it, hire new staff with amazing ideas or make contests among players for skins or ask them for ideas and never but never listen to the undead “hardcore” gamers, they are the minority of the ppl and have psychological problems. Our skills have long cd for what they are doing… for example Chaos Storm is totaly useless and has 2 days cd… Warriors used to be the masters of damage but after so many nerfs cant even cause the half of the damage they used to do. What are you plans? You want only a bunch of ppl to play every now and then and pretend the hardcore ones or you want a majoiry of ppl to play the game and consider it worthy to give even their real money in it?
My english is not perfect either but i dont care beside none hardcore gamer can have the legendaries I have and all casual gamers have

nanael the angel.2659:

@OriOri.8724

First of all, the challenge mote is not insanely hard for coordinated groups, it probably is for casual players that pug right away after coming home from work however.

Secondly,T4 fractals were a joke until some more recent revamps, and pretty much anyone could pug them quickly and with a minimum of effort. Now, many casuals are unable to even finish some T4 fractals, let alone run them quickly.
When something that was available to everyone for over a year (count 3+ years since fotm existed) suddenly becomes impossible to do for those lacking time, then it is being locked according to my logic, for these people. It’s not something new added, it’s a change of existing direction.

Moreover, had you done the new fractal you’d know there are skins gated behind it, some for completing the regular achievements and even a normal scale 100 mode, and some for the challenge mote.
Skins which are locked forever, like the raiding skins for the more casual folk, when fractals used to be a place for everyone.

In the end, you are entitled to your opinion approving of all this, and I am entitled to mine disliking this direction and mentality-change Anet is going through, we both have the right to share it on these forums and that’s that.

Believe it or not, most groups in this game are not all that coordinated. But back to actual points, you highlighted exactly why this new challenge mote is a positive direction. T4 fractals were never intended to be easy content. HoT power creep and people learning how to cheese certain encounters led to them being easy, farmable content but they were never intended to be that way. ANet is finally fixing that by introducing hard content and people complain because they can no longer play what could be considered broken content.

Fractals are in Tiers for a reason. If you can’t finish a T4 then you should be going back down to T3 fractals. HoT gave everyone suprecharged specs, which led to a lot of players thinking they were a lot better at this game than they are. T4 fractals aren’t supposed to be easy. They are supposed to be tough content that not everyone is good at right away, hence the lower tiers to give you a way to practice the encounters with less challenging mechanics.

I have only done the T1 of the new fractal because I am still working on my AR, but I do know that there are skins locked behind the challenge mode. I say good. Those skins are some of the few that are earned through being a good player in the game. They are available to those who put in the effort to learn their class and learn the encounters well enough to beat the challenge mode. Not everyone deserves them. Especially not players who just “casually farmed” fractals. These are skins that you should have to work for, and now people are upset because the skins aren’t just handed over.

This new fractal, and especially the new challenge mote, didn’t lock anyone out of any content they could do previously. It introduced brand new content. And even then it isn’t locking anyone out. If you cannot do T4 fractal then you need to go practice on T3 first. Its that simple. If they cannot do T3 then practice on T2 until they get better, and so on.

Likewise, in reply to your comment further below . The revamped Swamp challenge hasn’t locked anyone out of content they used to be able to play (though from your description your friends didn’t actually know how to play well enough and just got by on the fact that it was an outdated fractal that hadn’t kept up with the power creep. Hardly an achievement truth be told). They can still do lower tiers to practice if they are having trouble. Just because its now something you have to think about what you are doing doesn’t mean its broken. Just because your friends gave up on it because its not faceroll anyone doesn’t mean they are locked out of it. All it means is that either your friends are lazy players, or they just are not good enough at this game to do T4 fractals yet. Sorry, but not everyone is that good of a player. And unfortunately HoT power creep led many people in that boat to believe, falsely, that this was not true and that they could do anything they wanted in the game. Not everyone is that good, especially if they don’t practice the mechanics.

TL;DR the new fractal is fine, especially the challenge mote

@Sykper.6583

First of, I am perfectly able to complete anything in this game, raids included, and do so when time allows it.
But just because I can manage does not mean I enjoy watching those who can not miss out on things , and it does not mean either that I enjoy having some rewards locked from them just so I can brag for having cough “achieved” cough something in an online game.

Your last paragraph seems to imply that people should rather try in a game, than voice their opinion. Why is that? why should a game require effort? People should be able to play as they want without missing out on anything, like guild wars 1 would allow with both hard and easy mode.

Why do you feel the need to bash or criticize the opinions of those you do not agree with? This is a forum, you state your opinion and that is it, devs decide, it’s not a place to debate or try to convince others their points of view are wrong. I expressed mine, and so did the person I quoted. I did not however specifically try to prove wrong, those that enjoy the new fractal and anet’s new direction.

The game started advertizing itself back when it launched as a “play how you want game”. The outcry for years you describe is by a loud vocal minority that spend hours on these forums. I can assure you, the most casual of players never, ever visits these forums.
Want actual proof? look at the sellings JAFW provided, and the changes in gemstore tactics. If most casuals were happy about this change of direction I belive there would not be as many complains and sales would definitelly be different than currently.

MO once stated his goal was to entertain players, not argue about their opnions.

T4 Should just remain as they were for so long, an easy faceroll to casuals and hardcores alike. Anet could add T5 , for harder fractals and even T6 for challenge mote fractals.

All unsellable account bound skins, could be obtainable with a new account bound currency, with harder ways generating more of it. Be it a PvP’er, WvW’er, hardcore or casual PvE’r, anyone should be able to aquire anything, depending on their playstyle.

Also harder content could generate way more liquid gold, so those opting for it would not say it is unrewarding (despite it being their game choice).

It is time more options are added so this gap between playstyles can close as much as possible. Limiting already existing content to certain fractions, so far does not seem as the ideal approach.

nanael the angel.2659:

T4 Should just remain as they were for so long, an easy faceroll to casuals and hardcores alike. Anet could add T5 , for harder fractals and even T6 for challenge mote fractals.

Nah, it would still be the same. People not able to pass T5 would again cry for a nerf and so on.
I just finished a pugged T4 Daily with 5 necros. I didn’t care about the group combo at all and it was still a breeze. It felt like: I just had to log in, press start and got my 3 dailies. Same thing since months…

T4s aren’t rly harder atm. Swamp has been adjusted after the introduction and is easier as on release day – unfortunately in my eyes and the new Nightmare fractal is on par if you get used to it. Beat it on the 2nd run (first run was T3 which lasted longer) and we almost had 0 problems – in a pug group. Additionally I came from a longer break and haven’t played MMO stuff. It clearly indicates that T4s weren’t tuned up heavily.
I haven’t been a super duper player before nor am I now + been only in casual guilds, goofing around and some more.
I think the friends you are mentioning were rly lazy players with pressing the 1 too much once again.

Btw. even if you have problems personally there are 4 players able to carry you through potentially.

nanael the angel.2659:

@Sykper.6583

First of, I am perfectly able to complete anything in this game <snip>

My apologies for my last paragraph coming off as you weren’t available to do the content, I worded it poorly. I still hold fast that there’s an issue with basic RPG progression standards your friends are trying to keep around.

nanael the angel.2659:

But just because I can manage does not mean I enjoy watching those who can not miss out on things <snip>

I see no reason to ‘Brag’, I was simply pointing out that the only thing holding back your friends was their own willingness.

nanael the angel.2659:

Your last paragraph seems to imply that people should rather try in a game, than voice their opinion. Why is that? why should a game require effort? People should be able to play as they want without missing out on anything, like guild wars 1 would allow with both hard and easy mode.

GW1 had unique items also restricted behind hard mode, and some would consider the vast majority of the end-game GW1 harder than GW2 right now.

But what I find most confounding is your argument that players have a right to complain without even attempting the content first. It’s true they will have an opinion, but they will have an ill-informed opinion. Being ill-informed about something, anything, can lead to non-constructive criticism.

Also funny enough, the new fractal does have multiple difficulty levels, much like the old GW1 style you reference here. I would say it is even MORE flexible.

nanael the angel.2659:

Why do you feel the need to bash or criticize the opinions of those you do not agree with? <snip>

Because this forum is public, and open for discussion. In fact, this particular forum is under ‘Game Discussion’ which means any and all discourse in the subforums is free-game. It’s perfectly acceptable for me, much like yourself, to quote another person and offer a counter-point. As we have been doing here. As you are doing right now.

nanael the angel.2659:

The game started advertizing itself back when it launched as a “play how you want game”. <snip>

Ah yes, that quote yet again. Do I even need to get into the myriads of different subjective interpretations of what the devs meant by that? Do I even need to bring up how the game changes and evolves, like when Dungeons were the hardest PvE endgame?

And then the fall-back point everyone brings up that describes the forum as a minority of players that aren’t representative of the game population. Allow me to point out that the devs do listen to these forums, reddit, and even in-game when players pester them with trying to find out new content secrets. If the new fractal was as bad as you are making it out to be, why aren’t more of the “casual” audience you are describing marching to these forums protesting?

nanael the angel.2659:

Want actual proof? look at the sellings JAFW provided, and the changes in gemstore tactics. <snip>

Can you link whatever it is you are talking about here? And again bear in mind the saying that Correlation =/= Causation. I dislike irrelevant statistics.

nanael the angel.2659:

MO once stated his goal was to entertain players, not argue about their opnions.

Yep and MO has a vision on how to go about it. So far, with the Living Story Episodes delivering fresh new maps, the Story significantly better (overall OK, but that’s my opinion), and consistent patches for other content plus player feedback constantly, overall I would say things are looking pretty good!

(Continued next post)

nanael the angel.2659:

T4 Should just remain as they were for so long, an easy faceroll to casuals and hardcores alike. Anet could add T5 , for harder fractals and even T6 for challenge mote fractals.

I heavily disagree for all the above points made by myself and others. Adding another Tier level seems pointless to me right now, they have plenty of fractal levels at each tier to work with still.

nanael the angel.2659:

All unsellable account bound skins, could be obtainable with a new account bound currency <snip>

I highly oppose this to the greatest effort, for utterly different reasons that are too many to count. There should never be another universal currency like Gold buying all the horizontal progression again, which is precisely the reason why the Magumma Legendary Weapons are account-bound rather than on the TP. They are steering away from this intentionally.

nanael the angel.2659:

Also harder content could generate way more liquid gold, so those opting for it would not say it is unrewarding (despite it being their game choice).

That’s an option on the table, but it entirely depends on the content as well. But let’s not go back to Gold buying everything.

nanael the angel.2659:

It is time more options are added so this gap between playstyles can close as much as possible. Limiting already existing content to certain fractions, so far does not seem as the ideal approach.

And that is a personal opinion you have. You have no idea on any numbers you bring up, and it has been months since they have started going in this direction. If Arenanet found that players were leaving content in droves as you have pointed out, they would be shifting gears by now.

@Sykper.6583

you quote “Because this forum is public, and open for discussion. In fact, this particular forum is under ‘Game Discussion’ which means any and all discourse in the subforums is free-game. It’s perfectly acceptable for me, much like yourself, to quote another person and offer a counter-point. As we have been doing here. As you are doing right now”

ANSWER
-I am merely defending my own view-point, I was not the one who quoted you first calling your own opinion wrong. You will notice the person I quoted was someone I agreed with, and nowhere in my post-history will you see me debating the opinions of others, unless they specifically debate mine. Opinions are there, and I will let the developers decide on what they actually perceive as accurate.

you quote “Can you link whatever it is you are talking about here? And again bear in mind the saying that Correlation =/= Causation. I dislike irrelevant statistics.”

ANSWER
-It is one of JAFW’s thread in general discussion section regarding Anet’s earnings.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/NCsoft-s-Earnings-Report/first
He has also created various other similar threads on reddit and these forums which you can find using google.

you quote “And that is a personal opinion you have. You have no idea on any numbers you bring up, and it has been months since they have started going in this direction. If Arenanet found that players were leaving content in droves as you have pointed out, they would be shifting gears by now.”

ANSWER
-I mentioned JAFW’s thread for what I said, do you actually have exact numbers to backup your claims that everything is fine with the game? Probably not, and nor do I. According to that thread though the “last months” and the “HoT sales” did not seem that great to me or some others. As for Anet shifting gears, despite this being way too early yet, they did say they’d slowly go back to their roots and even, already, nerfed HoT-content and the farming required for a new legendary !

you quote “I highly oppose this to the greatest effort, for utterly different reasons that are too many to count. There should never be another universal currency like Gold buying all the horizontal progression again, which is precisely the reason why the Magumma Legendary Weapons are account-bound rather than on the TP. They are steering away from this intentionally.”

ANSWER
-That is EXACTLY why I said ACCOUNT-BOUND currency.
Meaning it could be say a “rare-tasty-rock-candy” which you can obtain by doing any content, but in different amounts. Content considered easy would yield 1 a day or something, while harder content would yield more.

you quote “I heavily disagree for all the above points made by myself and others. Adding another Tier level seems pointless to me right now, they have plenty of fractal levels at each tier to work with still.”

ANSWER
-Reason I am proposing this is because people who farmT4 would still generate the same amount of gold they always did. Hardcores would again generate more gold by doing top tiers (5 and 6 in this hypothetical state). Difference would still exist, but people would not get upset over “Anet destroying their farming” because they’d still generate the same amounts they always had in the past.

you quote “But what I find most confounding is your argument that players have a right to complain without even attempting the content first. It’s true they will have an opinion, but they will have an ill-informed opinion. Being ill-informed about something, anything, can lead to non-constructive criticism.”

ANSWER
-That is exactly why I completed the 100 tier on both normal and challenge -mote modes. So I can know how hard it was for me, and could relate or understand my friends claiming it is impossible for them.
But since according to you , them simply trying the 100 normal mode is not enough to voice an opinion, should we also consider OriOri.8724 ’s opinion invalid? according to him/her they have only completed the “T1 of the new fractal” , yet provide feedback on the new fractal , even debating the feedback of two other people (myself included) concerning the level 100 scale. Or is their opinion perfectly valid according to your logic, because it agrees with your points?

Anyhow , hope this tone does not come off as rude to any of you, if it does it is not my intention and I apologize for it in advance. We can just agree to disagree I guess, and in the end how Anet handles their game, is their own matter. My feedback and own p e r s o n a l opinion has been stated and that’s that.

PS. This will be my last reply so we don’t clog-up this thread with a pointless circular debate.
PPS. Love how you format someone else’s quotes by breaking them up, should learn how to do this on these forums someday.

So beneath each post is the natural ‘Quote’ button (the Arrow).

That’ll pull up a different page, you might notice Brackets around player names followed by a post number. Essentially, when I block up your posts, I copy the bracketed player name, put it at the start of the quote, and the second “/ quote” bracket concludes the quote in question.

I hope you can use this knowledge in all your future posts, it can take some time getting used to but I find it helps break down separate arguments and statements players make constantly.

I’ll also make this quick as well. I’ll agree with your first point, as defending a point constitutes a discussion. It is how disagreements and logic come together, so I’ll just leave it at that.

Second, the sales shows a steady rate since the summer, the massive drop from when HoT launched has been widely discussed. I am willing to consider the perspective that the lack of any other content for months after HoT release, also impacted by the rework of the new zones, wasn’t “Sale-Friendly”. I am also willing to wager the sales might be significantly worse if Raids and harder content hadn’t appeared. But this speculation, and yours, are impossible to prove. We can only speculate, and Arenanet can only decide on which way to move forward.

The next point, it truly doesn’t matter if it is account-bound or not, a player who dedicates himself to farming Silverwastes tokens and events, should have be able to access every other skin in the game, ever. It is a surefire way to kill off all future content unless the new content proves to be the better ‘Universal Currency’ Farm than the old. Because all players are driven by reward, getting rewarded is a large part of ‘fun’ for all players in this game.

…Why do T4s have to be ‘Farmed’? Why keep them farm-able? I never got a response other than that it seemingly makes it impossible for some players who would rather complain than try, I still find it illogical and not to be rude, childish. But I know now I won’t get an answer so I’ll let this one go.

It’s easy enough to emphasize with players who you know, and have played with, about how they will fair in new content. It’s also terribly easy to simply ignore the problem at hand and complain about it instead. I haven’t addressed OriOri, and its very likely I have some differences in opinion with what they want. Hell, there’s a thread in this forum talking about expanding Raid Rewards to include some rewards I find to be very convenient (likely OP) for general play, that I despise such as Unlimited Revive Orb. I take each person’s arguments and their stance/knowledge, and make my own decisions about if I need to address them or not. I suppose I could go take a second look at OriOri now that you have dropped the discourse, and I might actually. But ultimately, I feel much more differently than you about the new fractal, which is why I had to voice my own arguments here.

That all being said, I thank you for this discussion, you were perfectly fine in your discourse, and please use the knowledge about quoting above as you see fit. If you need more help, send me a PM I’ll walk you through it. Thanks!

Sykper.6583:

…Why do T4s have to be ‘Farmed’? Why keep them farm-able? I never got a response other than that it seemingly makes it impossible for some players who would rather complain than try, I still find it illogical and not to be rude, childish. But I know now I won’t get an answer so I’ll let this one go.

My reasoning for this is simple. Way too often have I been pm’ed by friends asking for help to clear some “re-worked” T4 content.
And most tell me the same thing “I used to be able to pug these daily with minimum effort, yet now I am getting booted out of T4 with the changes. Guess this game just wants to cater more and more to hardcore players”

The problem is, T4 has been a joke for too long since HoT launched.
The memory of easy farming is still fresh and engraved in people’s minds, and any change increasing difficulty or even adding more difficult fractals in the rotation affects the more casual players farming these. We are talking about casual folk here, who will not research easily alternative ways to generate funds. Once they have trouble completing something they could in the past, they will attribute it to a total and general change of direction (which is somewhat true).
Had there been extra tiers, they’d probably attempt them once, fail miserably and just ignore them in the future.
Had T4 stood the same, they’d still be making the same amount with the same effort however, and probably would nt even notice the slowly increasing difficulty of more and more recent fractals.

On a side-note, thank you very much for your reply teaching me how to quote, and the discussion we shared, really appreciated your arguments and general tone. I think I had to elaborate on that one point you mentioned was unclear and as it turns out, was indeed. Maybe I am still wording it badly, but that’s what I think. With time if T4 fractals are not easily-farmable anymore by the most casuals, guess that would help too, but right now, I believe from their perspective, it is an argument worth mentioning.