Guild Wars 2

Leo G.4501:

Well I didn’t say hard, I said cheap. Those kittens are cheap kittens. Probably why I enjoy blasting them to kingdom come with all the gods’ elements or sinking metal deep in their kitten skulls.

Yes many mobs in there are kind of annoying… if you don’t LoS or have any projectile reflect skills.

With those 2 things the dungeon becomes the same as anything else, so generally depends on your classes just like many other things that can be either or annoying depending on your classes (which is usually some combination of guard/war/mesmer >_>).

But I could see how it could be annoying.

Mirta.5029:

Only unskilled players are punished. Learn to play by doing easier dungeons first until you’re the master of your class instead of whining that Arah is too hard.

Wrong.

“Unskilled” players AND their teammates are punished. A team is usually only as strong as its weakest link.

I could be the best player in the world but my team can still fail if I am with some bad players if the dungeon’s threshold is high enough. It has nothing to do with my personal skills or ability. That’s where your logic fails.

If you set the bar too high not only does it punish “unskilled” players it also indirectly punishes their teammates who are otherwise “skilled” since afterall this is a MMO and we are talking about dungeons that require teams.

Strifey.7215:

Yes many mobs in there are kind of annoying… if you don’t LoS or have any projectile reflect skills.

With those 2 things the dungeon becomes the same as anything else, so generally depends on your classes just like many other things that can be either or annoying depending on your classes (which is usually some combination of guard/war/mesmer >_>).

But I could see how it could be annoying.

Problem is, you base your evaluation on your party that consists of so-called 1st tier proffesions only. You should at the very least try doing it with 2nd tier which should represent more average approach to dungeons.

Leo G.4501:

Strifey.7215:

CM? Nope

Lol I’m sorry but CM is cheap! Yeah I watched Wethospu’s CM solo video but I could tell he just had a ‘blast’ soloing that thing (/sarcasm).

The mobs in there are cheap. I don’t care if your group is amazing but snipers that aggro at stupid ranges, archers that use distortion multiple times for multiple seconds, bombers that spam cluster bomb AoEs all over the place, bandits that heal their allies and are armed with stability, bandits that stack bleeds and poison on you dang near non-stop…

Funny though, I run CM alot.

the problem is not the mob abilities but the quantity of them. Ran CM a lot myself, even after the update. It can be a fun dungeon with a good group. Definitely requires lots of condition removal though

CHIPS.6018:

I already finished Arah paths 1 to 3. I farmed enough in Arah for the Arah armor. But I refuse to touch path 4 because everyone in my guild said it was brutal time wise. I do not have 4+ hours to burn on this, with the risk of failing and not getting anything.

Just the thought of a 4+ hour long dungeon (success not guaranteed) turns me away. I am not even going to attempt it until it gets changed. It got nothing to do with my player skills, which is very decent btw.

In the mean time, I will wvw with those precious 2 hours that I got.

Why dont you actually try the path first? Maybe your guild mates are wrong. Going by your logic casual players should also give up on WvW. Sometimes you have to queue so they might as well not bother. Otherwise they might be wasting time. They should also get rid of Fractals full stop.

Irakaz.8964:

CHIPS.6018:

I already finished Arah paths 1 to 3. I farmed enough in Arah for the Arah armor. But I refuse to touch path 4 because everyone in my guild said it was brutal time wise. I do not have 4+ hours to burn on this, with the risk of failing and not getting anything.

Just the thought of a 4+ hour long dungeon (success not guaranteed) turns me away. I am not even going to attempt it until it gets changed. It got nothing to do with my player skills, which is very decent btw.

In the mean time, I will wvw with those precious 2 hours that I got.

Why dont you actually try the path first? Maybe your guild mates are wrong. Going by your logic casual players should also give up on WvW. Sometimes you have to queue so they might as well not bother. Otherwise they might be wasting time. They should also get rid of Fractals full stop.

He’s doesn’t need to personally try it since this is common knowledge.

It’s like asking for someone to go to the moon to experience it first hand if they claim that there’s no oxygen up there.

haviz.1340:

Strifey.7215:

Yes many mobs in there are kind of annoying… if you don’t LoS or have any projectile reflect skills.

With those 2 things the dungeon becomes the same as anything else, so generally depends on your classes just like many other things that can be either or annoying depending on your classes (which is usually some combination of guard/war/mesmer >_>).

But I could see how it could be annoying.

Problem is, you base your evaluation on your party that consists of so-called 1st tier proffesions only. You should at the very least try doing it with 2nd tier which should represent more average approach to dungeons.

You’re right I could, and it would be harder and more “average”, I mean that’s basically what I started off doing, my first class was neither guardian nor warrior, and I didn’t get a mesmer until my 6th class. My first encounter with dungeons was level 35 on my necro in AC on like day 2 of the game, and it involved alot of face plants, but I’m not going to reference that when talking about the difficulty of dungeons because it’s not relevant on how easy they can be.

At this point, with the people I run with, and with what I’m focusing on as far as updating footage and what not, I really don’t have the time or care enough to do things that I know are less efficient from previous experience. All of my posting is from work to kill time, which is why I ramble so much. But I always have crazy OCD about things I want to get done when I’m actually home and trying to balance whatever personal life remains :x

Basically I’m the min-max type player in every MMO, I try and figure out what’s “ideal.” Once I get to that point, I base any suggestions or guides on that. I know this game is catered around play how you want, every class is equal, blah blah, but I’ve never ever played an MMO that was truly 100% balanced and I don’t care about trying to do things that I know aren’t the most efficient or ideal. The natural cycle of MMOs is nerfs and buffs. If they want to do that to classes then I’ll figure out different builds or class comps when that happens, but I’m not going to intentionally bring in “worse” classes. I mean it takes like 3 days to hit 80 on an alt in the first place because a few of the crafts are so cheap and easy that you’re pretty much 50 after a few hours.

It’s the devs jobs to balance dungeons and classes, not my job to artificially make things harder to cater to the “vision of the game.”

That’s just the type of player I am.

Granted my current CM vids are really old and I don’t even use alot of the strategies I do now and I’m pretty sure I was kitten back then and didn’t even use reflection on my guardian most of the time. There’s not even a mesmer in I think 2 of the 3 paths either. So those aren’t even “ideal” in the first place and are still pretty quick and painless.

DeathPanel.8362:

He’s doesn’t need to personally try it since this is common knowledge.

It’s like asking for someone to go to the moon to experience it first hand if they claim that there’s no oxygen up there.

What a terrible analogy since he’s making a complaint and not stating an obvious fact. Running p4 arah and deciding how hard it is, is subjective to the runners. Some will find it easy, others will not. The moon will have no oxygen regardless of your opinion.

The 25 minute mark seems to be a completely arbitrary and unscientific number cooked up by OP to justify his point. Considering that he changed it from 45 to 25 just to make his point valid again, I question the legitimacy of his concern.

What’s dumb is not that some dungeons are longer than others, but that the reward is the exact same for all of them. 2 hour run or 10 min run, you get the same reward. That’s dumb.

Yaki.9563:

What’s dumb is not that some dungeons are longer than others, but that the reward is the exact same for all of them. 2 hour run or 10 min run, you get the same reward. That’s dumb.

Technically it is not. The longer the dungeon, the more mobs, the more bosses, the more loot. Reward at the end is just an extra shinny.

Strifey.7215:

Wethospu.6437:

But is it hard or just awfully long?
How can something be considered hard if it can be soloed (like most of the Arah path 4)?

Well I did say longer then anything else as well, but it’s all relative.

This 80F water is hotter then this 50F water, but are either of them really that hot?

Relative to everything else in the game except high level fractals Arah is harder.

I mean what’s really hard?

AC? lol
CM? Nope
TA? Not really
SE? Path 2 is long but not that hard except maybe the last boss.
CoF? lol
HotW? Only hard part is not falling asleep from the high survivability and one attack each boss has.
CoE? Nope
Arah? In terms of named dungeons, I would say things like GL or things that actually require teamwork like Simin are “harder” then most of the other things.

So yes, I consider it “harder” then other dungeons when we’re talking about GW2.

I mean everything is “easy” once you learn patterns and strategies. Outside of PvP which is truly dynamic combat, MMOs are all about puzzling together builds, patterns, and skills to eventually make things easy. Sure once you learn the patterns and bosses of Arah 4, it’s no different then anything else, you hit your keys in a certain timing or do certain things and you complete ‘x’ event. But from a new player perspective, I do consider it harder compared to the amount of learning required for most other paths.

The same reason people say Dark/Demon Souls is hard, but it’s really not hard once you play through the game once and know everything.

How can you consider Arah 4 to be extra challenge path when it is mostly about beating no-threat bosses? It would be about as much as difficult if it just had Lupicus and Simin but a lot faster to run (= making it 25 min dungeon wouldn’t make it easy as CoF 1).
People complain about thrash-monsters but honestly they should complain about thrash-bosses.

The best idea i’ve seen in the threads so far is the normal/hard mode argument. Theres 2 types of people doing dungeons – The ones that are after the tokens, and the ones that want the ectos from the tokens. Normal mode players are the ones that want to do the dungeon till they have their gear then bye bye, not interested anymore. Hard mode players are the ones that don’t want the blasted silly armour, just give me the freaking cores/stones/ectos kay. Add a hard mode, better chest loot, better drops, more challenging. Have the normal mode for gear and make the armour so it doesn’t ever salvage into ectos, just silk or mithril. Theres a thread in here about a guy who has his storage filling up with ascended rings from fractals. Does he want any fractals gear? nope, doing it for the cash now, plain and simple. Will he be rich? yep, he’s doing the grinding to GET rich. so to recap this wall of freaking text – normal mode: gimme the cool armour and teach me the dungeon! Hard mode: screw this crappy armour, gimme the kitten cash.

I will get drowsy finishing most dungeons in this game. This goes from route easy dungeons like AC to whatever I was able to do in the few Arah runs I’ve been in. Win or lose, at the end I have little energy to keep playing.

No thank you.

Fast-food dungeons are what killed WoW for me and in GW2 they are the PvE endgame.

Dungeons should be something of a commitment and not something your rush through.

It’s perfectly fine for some dungeons to take significantly longer than others as long as they themselves are well-paced.

Ioflux.4369:

DeathPanel.8362:

He’s doesn’t need to personally try it since this is common knowledge.

It’s like asking for someone to go to the moon to experience it first hand if they claim that there’s no oxygen up there.

What a terrible analogy since he’s making a complaint and not stating an obvious fact. Running p4 arah and deciding how hard it is, is subjective to the runners. Some will find it easy, others will not. The moon will have no oxygen regardless of your opinion.

A vast majority of people don’t think P4 Arah is easy. Maybe if you are lucky and have 5 regular runners all with vent doing it. Just telling a random person to “go do it” is beyond useless since it will just be a waste of time for them given their situation since they will most likely just fail over and over again.

Here’s a more appropriate analogy then.

It’s like if you are standing on the roof of a 8 story building. Sure some people can survive that fall but alot of people won’t. It’s like you are telling those that don’t think they can survive to jump to test it out.

DeathPanel.8362:

Ioflux.4369:

DeathPanel.8362:

He’s doesn’t need to personally try it since this is common knowledge.

It’s like asking for someone to go to the moon to experience it first hand if they claim that there’s no oxygen up there.

What a terrible analogy since he’s making a complaint and not stating an obvious fact. Running p4 arah and deciding how hard it is, is subjective to the runners. Some will find it easy, others will not. The moon will have no oxygen regardless of your opinion.

A vast majority of people don’t think P4 Arah is easy. Maybe if you are lucky and have 5 regular runners all with vent doing it. Just telling a random person to “go do it” is beyond useless since it will just be a waste of time for them given their situation since they will most likely just fail over and over again.

Here’s a more appropriate analogy then.

It’s like if you are standing on the roof of a 8 story building. Sure some people can survive that fall but alot of people won’t. It’s like you are telling those that don’t think they can survive to jump to test it out.

Relatively, you won’t cease to be if you try Arah. If you jump off a building an not survive, you won’t live to learn anything.

Your analogy has nothing in common with the situation. You can walk into Arah and decide after 30 min if you like it or not…then not do it. You can’t really ‘half-way’ try to breath on the moon or stop half-way down an 8 story building jump.

Leo G.4501:

DeathPanel.8362:

Ioflux.4369:

DeathPanel.8362:

He’s doesn’t need to personally try it since this is common knowledge.

It’s like asking for someone to go to the moon to experience it first hand if they claim that there’s no oxygen up there.

What a terrible analogy since he’s making a complaint and not stating an obvious fact. Running p4 arah and deciding how hard it is, is subjective to the runners. Some will find it easy, others will not. The moon will have no oxygen regardless of your opinion.

A vast majority of people don’t think P4 Arah is easy. Maybe if you are lucky and have 5 regular runners all with vent doing it. Just telling a random person to “go do it” is beyond useless since it will just be a waste of time for them given their situation since they will most likely just fail over and over again.

Here’s a more appropriate analogy then.

It’s like if you are standing on the roof of a 8 story building. Sure some people can survive that fall but alot of people won’t. It’s like you are telling those that don’t think they can survive to jump to test it out.

Relatively, you won’t cease to be if you try Arah. If you jump off a building an not survive, you won’t live to learn anything.

Your analogy has nothing in common with the situation. You can walk into Arah and decide after 30 min if you like it or not…then not do it. You can’t really ‘half-way’ try to breath on the moon or stop half-way down an 8 story building jump.

You obviously don’t get what an analogy is or are just responding to be contrarian so I’ll just keep this straight forward.

The point is the person knows it’s a likely negative outcome based on currently known facts, yet he is told to go do it anyway knowing that given his situation he will likely encounter that negative outcome.

Just because you can achieve positive outcomes with a certain setup/situation doesn’t mean everyone has access to that type of setup/situation, and just telling others to do it just because it worked out great for you given your setup/situation is meaningless and less than helpful.

DeathPanel.8362:

A vast majority of people don’t think P4 Arah is easy

I thought that difficulty wasn’t a problem for you and most other people that claim to be skilled at this game. Skilled groups can beat it under an hour, a lot of non-skilled players can’t. You’re more or less admitting to having no skill if you’re not even prepared to try it then.

DeathPanel.8362:

It’s like if you are standing on the roof of a 8 story building. Sure some people can survive that fall but alot of people won’t. It’s like you are telling those that don’t think they can survive to jump to test it out.

Yes, 99% chance of death with no way to improve your chances of survival other than a landing net. That landing net being skill and a good group.

Leo G.4501:

Your analogy has nothing in common with the situation. You can walk into Arah and decide after 30 min if you like it or not

His analogy also fails because he could practice running it and gain experience doing it, unlike jumping off buildings that will be a one-way trip with no experience gained. Another thing is he could quite easily read through tips from other players and go with other experienced players.

DeathPanel.8362:

Just because you can achieve positive outcomes with a certain setup/situation doesn’t mean everyone has access to that type of setup/situation, and just telling others to do it just because it worked out great for you given your setup/situation is meaningless and less than helpful.

Not only are you the one that fails to understand how analogies work but you’re also not even asking for something reasonable. You’re not asking for dungeons to be shorter when they’re too long (which they aren’t). You’re instead demanding that dungeons be made so easy that the most unskilled, least experienced and bad setup groups can complete it quickly.

When a house has a terrible foundation problem, I don’t expect 5 inexperienced nobodies to come in and complete the job in 5 minutes.

The thing with Arah is that it’s experience, skill and good setups that gets the job done quickly. You have to fill at least 2 of these 3 pre-requisites to get it done properly. You’re effectlively demanding that a 5 man group of squishy glass cannon warriors should be able to complete the dungeon with minimal effort.

If you are capable and able to co-ordinate with your group (requires some communication) there is no reason why casuals can’t beat every path in Arah. Beating Arah P4 in under an hour is good enough. Just because “other not so skilled players” can’t beat it doesn’t mean you should make excuses for not trying.

CHIPS.6018:

Mirta.5029:

CHIPS.6018:

I already finished Arah paths 1 to 3. I farmed enough in Arah for the Arah armor. But I refuse to touch path 4 because everyone in my guild said it was brutal time wise. I do not have 4+ hours to burn on this, with the risk of failing and not getting anything.

Just the thought of a 4+ hour long dungeon (success not guaranteed) turns me away. I am not even going to attempt it until it gets changed. It got nothing to do with my player skills, which is very decent btw.

you’re saying that it will take you 4+ hours when a guy linked you a video where it was completed in 43 minutes? It is a skill issue.

Here we go again. Elitist calling everyone else noob.

Until you finish GW1 Winds of Change in Hard Mode and get Zei Ri as a hero, do not lecture me about player skills.

using a cooki cutter build on what looks like a non rit is not player skil
just saying.
and on topic
a flat NO. why change the 1 thing anet wanted for the more hard core player be caterd for the casuals who want everything now?
you want something? work for it like we al do

hildegain.2106:

DeathPanel.8362:

A vast majority of people don’t think P4 Arah is easy

I thought that difficulty wasn’t a problem for you and most other people that claim to be skilled at this game. Skilled groups can beat it under an hour, a lot of non-skilled players can’t. You’re more or less admitting to having no skill if you’re not even prepared to try it then.

You have a very fundamental lack of understanding of what the point is.

If everyone were skilled or just clones of myself I’d have no problems. The problem is like in any online game where content requires teamwork it’s inevitable you have bad players in a team.

If you have the bar too high then all you are doing is punishing actual skilled players when they get stuck in a team of bad players.

Because the only choice I personally have in that case is quit the team or try to vote kick the bad players and in either one of those choices more time is wasted and more frustration created.

And the discussion is not about how well I do in that dungeon, but rather what the person I was referring to earlier in the thread so you either didn’t understand my point or just refused to understand.

I personally carry more than my own weight and have no troubles in any dungeon runs pre or post patch as long as I am in what you would label a “skilled team”.

The problem I am trying to point out is that ideal scenario is not the norm and if you set the bar too high then not only do the unskilled players get punished but also those that are skilled.

Leo G.4501:

DeathPanel.8362:

You obviously don’t get what an analogy is or are just responding to be contrarian so I’ll just keep this straight forward.

The point is the person knows it’s a likely negative outcome based on currently known facts, yet he is told to go do it anyway knowing that given his situation he will likely encounter that negative outcome.

Just because you can achieve positive outcomes with a certain setup/situation doesn’t mean everyone has access to that type of setup/situation, and just telling others to do it just because it worked out great for you given your setup/situation is meaningless and less than helpful.

If I’m be contrarian then you’re being hyperbolic. You can compare anything like that to jumping off a bridge. Doesn’t make it sound less stupid.

OMG! Try onions on my pizza? Why don’t I just try jumping into a volcano and see if I’ll like it.

Yeah, woop. People say Arah path 4 sucks. Boo hoo, then don’t try it. However, don’t come whining on the forums about how you don’t want to try something just because you heard it’s icky, will force you to stomp a puppy and will steal your bum cherry so it should be changed…because if you actually did try it, you’d know most of what you hear is exaggeration.

I see you totally failed/refused to get the point. Not a big surprise.