No place for power necro in raid.
Well you got to much sustain to get same dps as thief and elem would you be willing to lose shroud to compensate?
Well you got to much sustain to get same dps as thief and elem would you be willing to lose shroud to compensate?
Apparently you haven’t seen thief sustain, or the fact ele’s can heal themselves consistently.
Well you got to much sustain to get same dps as thief and elem would you be willing to lose shroud to compensate?
Apparently you haven’t seen thief sustain, or the fact ele’s can heal themselves consistently.
ele and thief get 1 hit constantly in raids. maybe play one for awhile and see the struggle.
ele and thief get 1 hit constantly in raids. maybe play one for awhile and see the struggle.
Only if they are a bad players.
ele and thief get 1 hit constantly in raids. maybe play one for awhile and see the struggle.
Only if they are a bad players.
obviously. but necros can be equally bad and tank like crazy. which is why if you want to do that dps you have to take the same tradeoff. again go play those classes. feel their pain. then come ask for buffs. until then stop trying to be everything in 1.
obviously. but necros can be equally bad and tank like crazy. which is why if you want to do that dps you have to take the same tradeoff. again go play those classes. feel their pain. then come ask for buffs. until then stop trying to be everything in 1.
I’ve played all of the classes, ty. And necro is way too weak atm. Especially power necro.
You are saying that because there is a mirror comp now, there are only 4 slots available for dps, 4 slots for 6 professions, while the other 6 slots are taken by 3 professions (2×2×2).
Just a thought, how about giving necro more party buffing ability instead of increasing their DPS? Make them compete with the buffers because there is plenty of room there instead of the DPS that has less room.
There are lots of places, especially if you don’t raid with exclusive teams that can’t do anything but mirror comps.
There are lots of places, especially if you don’t raid with exclusive teams that can’t do anything but mirror comps.
It’s not a matter of “can’t”, but rather one of “want”.
Any decent raid team can do a full clear with a power necro, but most teams prefer having good dps and utility rather than mediocre(yes, even the dps after 50% is mediocre) and barely any utility.
DPS Benchmarks, Raids, Low-mans etc.
Well, that’s an important distinction wouldn’t you say? I think it is.
Make them compete with the buffers because there is plenty of room there instead of the DPS that has less room.
Only druid is “replaceable”.
Make them compete with the buffers because there is plenty of room there instead of the DPS that has less room.
Only druid is “replaceable”.
Not if they duplicated the unique buffs, although that won’t happen. ANet admitting that they’ve totally kittened up balance? Never.
There is no loyalty without betrayal. -Ann Smiley
+1
necro is a trashcan class for 3 out of 4 years pretty much, it’s depressing. Meanwhile there’s classes which are just better in every possible way
The argument that necro has more HP is not so good, because the flat damage rates make it so we die with 2 hits instead of a single one, not much improvement if you ask me. Specially because other classes employ many active defenses (the amount of vigor, dodges and extra blocks/invulns on other classes compared to necro is amazing).
So, while we do have the highest HP pool by playing necro (both flat HP and the Shroud bar) it does nothing to actually help us achieve survivability, and it’s only so good during fractals because we can mitigate small damage that would otherwise build over time (something other classes can do with blocks and vigor).
Furthermore, we aren’t even the masters of condition play, because our signets and traits can easily be replaced by support druid and tempest. What amount of conditions we can actually transfer doesn’t add much to our personal damage at all.
A big HP pool should not translate into small damage; hell, there are so many games where the Necromancer/Blood Mage/Dark Arts caster has high HP because his spells actually cost health to use, hence being a fine tradeoff, and it would fit GW2 really well. What we have now is a travesty of a Necro: we’re not doing damage, we’re not being masters of cursing everyone, and we’re not even actually putting our true life force (our HP) to use.
The argument that necro has more HP is not so good, because the flat damage rates make it so we die with 2 hits instead of a single one, not much improvement if you ask me. Specially because other classes employ many active defenses (the amount of vigor, dodges and extra blocks/invulns on other classes compared to necro is amazing).
So, while we do have the highest HP pool by playing necro (both flat HP and the Shroud bar) it does nothing to actually help us achieve survivability, and it’s only so good during fractals because we can mitigate small damage that would otherwise build over time (something other classes can do with blocks and vigor).
Furthermore, we aren’t even the masters of condition play, because our signets and traits can easily be replaced by support druid and tempest. What amount of conditions we can actually transfer doesn’t add much to our personal damage at all.
A big HP pool should not translate into small damage; hell, there are so many games where the Necromancer/Blood Mage/Dark Arts caster has high HP because his spells actually cost health to use, hence being a fine tradeoff, and it would fit GW2 really well. What we have now is a travesty of a Necro: we’re not doing damage, we’re not being masters of cursing everyone, and we’re not even actually putting our true life force (our HP) to use.
a high hp pool. which lets you survive longer than any other class. and you have to sacrifice nothing to do so. means you should NOT be on par with eles who have half your hp and no shroud.eles risk more. so they earn more. thats how balance works. should necros get the changes reverted? yes they were in a fine spot pre nerf. they didnt deserve the nerf. should they get insanely high dps for nothing? no.
you are ridiculous, go actually play a necro. i dare you to solo lupicus without sacrificing anything to do so
you are ridiculous, go actually play a necro. i dare you to solo lupicus without sacrificing anything to do so
i do play necro. daily. im done with you. youve proven you only want a OP class so you can faceroll raids solo. bye
I play power reaper almost exclusively in PvE lately. Obviously not in raids but in fractals where the “meta” isn’t as strongly enforced.
Power reaper is definetly tankier than most builds.
Issue is it being more sustainable has no bearing in raids. So its kind of a mute point. Who cares how tanky a class is if the cost is damage. Thats the mentallity of hte current pve community.
In raids a power reaper is kind of wierd. It can stand in the black during gorsevals aoe’s and keep dpsing. It can survive the damage of sabetha’s final phases with minimal need for aid.
Ironically if a PURE tank was necessary in this game. A power reaper would be one of the best contenders. With access to a large amount of damage reduction, toughness stacking abilities. And abilities that enable a tank style reaper to deal more damage than any other “tank” build in the game currently does.
But none of that MATTERs in the current raid.
For example never losing dps uptime on gorseval doesn’t really matter in part because there are no methods of recording how much damage the reaper can do vs other classes that have to move out of the black. Does being able to stand in seekers and continue dpsing while using shroud to tank the hits close the gap in dps. With no way to actually see it ourselves the only thing we can do is say “well the potential damage of a theif or ele is MUCH higher”.
If an ele goes down they lose alot of dps. Meanwhile the necro is still dpsing just the same through whatever hit took the ele down. Hell the necro is probably the one ressing the ele. How much dmg does the ele really lose compared to the necro in that situation. How much dps gain is the necro responsible for returning to the grp while rezzing that ele in whatever damage field might have killed him.
There just isn’t a way to tell in the current game. So those situations might as well not exist in the current game as far as the playerbase is concerned. Only anet has really any idea what a power reaper ACTUALLY contributes through its large hp pool vs what it costs.
As far as Necro’s gaining group support. Honestly unless said group support was horrendously overpowered who cares? Do you REALLY think any amount of grp support they give a necro is going to outweight the massive damage boosts a druid gives? Or the sheer power of a chrono? Without it being brokenly overpowered?
Fat chance. There’s already a concern among rangers that the next elite spec for them is just going to be flat out ignored because people will still demand they run druid for the heals+buff combo. Making it a dead xpac for them class wise. (Wich sucks for people that don’t enjoy being buff kittenes like the game has forced them to be since release but still enjoy the class)
I play power reaper almost exclusively in PvE lately. Obviously not in raids but in fractals where the “meta” isn’t as strongly enforced.
Power reaper is definetly tankier than most builds.
Issue is it being more sustainable has no bearing in raids. So its kind of a mute point. Who cares how tanky a class is if the cost is damage. Thats the mentallity of hte current pve community.
In raids a power reaper is kind of wierd. It can stand in the black during gorsevals aoe’s and keep dpsing. It can survive the damage of sabetha’s final phases with minimal need for aid.
Ironically if a PURE tank was necessary in this game. A power reaper would be one of the best contenders. With access to a large amount of damage reduction, toughness stacking abilities. And abilities that enable a tank style reaper to deal more damage than any other “tank” build in the game currently does.
But none of that MATTERs in the current raid.
For example never losing dps uptime on gorseval doesn’t really matter in part because there are no methods of recording how much damage the reaper can do vs other classes that have to move out of the black. Does being able to stand in seekers and continue dpsing while using shroud to tank the hits close the gap in dps. With no way to actually see it ourselves the only thing we can do is say “well the potential damage of a theif or ele is MUCH higher”.
If an ele goes down they lose alot of dps. Meanwhile the necro is still dpsing just the same through whatever hit took the ele down. Hell the necro is probably the one ressing the ele. How much dmg does the ele really lose compared to the necro in that situation. How much dps gain is the necro responsible for returning to the grp while rezzing that ele in whatever damage field might have killed him.
There just isn’t a way to tell in the current game. So those situations might as well not exist in the current game as far as the playerbase is concerned. Only anet has really any idea what a power reaper ACTUALLY contributes through its large hp pool vs what it costs.
As far as Necro’s gaining group support. Honestly unless said group support was horrendously overpowered who cares? Do you REALLY think any amount of grp support they give a necro is going to outweight the massive damage boosts a druid gives? Or the sheer power of a chrono? Without it being brokenly overpowered?
Fat chance. There’s already a concern among rangers that the next elite spec for them is just going to be flat out ignored because people will still demand they run druid for the heals+buff combo. Making it a dead xpac for them class wise. (Wich sucks for people that don’t enjoy being buff kittenes like the game has forced them to be since release but still enjoy the class)
so a couple things. 1 it isnt just raids we have to think about with balancing. what do you think its going to happen in every other game mode (including fractals) if necro gets just as much dps as ele? in any mode why would we bother bringing ele anymore? why bring any dps besides necro? its tanky it does max damage. they have no place anymore. necro rotation is easy as pie. you spam moves constantly and do dps. ele has to actually think about what they do. does necro need a buff overall? yes. but the op isnt asking for a buff. hes asking to do more dps than any other class for no tradeoff.
Would be nice to finally have a place for necromancers that isn’t in a cheese composition.
I’d be careful not to go crazy with damage buffs, though. A class with this much survivabilty shouldn’t have damage on par with elementalists. And yes I have played both classes a ton and spend even more time healing both on my druid during raids.
It already leads to what I call “the necro syndrome”. People running around without a care in the world. Some are not even used to dodging attacks in fractals or raids anymore.
I am exaggerating of course.
What I actually want to see are meaningful unique abilities like life leeching or debuffs to the enemies. Debuffs would fit the class well. Like a unique version of vulnerability or something similar. I am also not against a small damage buff to the power necro. Just nothing too crazy.
In any case, can’t say that I am a huge fan of class unique buffs or debuffs in general but since that is the way we are heading and quite a few classes already have very powerful unique stuff. Might as well spread them some more.
@sophiewhite I am not disagreeing with you. Nor am I attempting to agree with the OP. I just stated facts as I saw them. You’l notice I also didn’t ask for buffs anywhere in my post.
If anything I would like a dps meter in this game so I could see exactly how much dps that high HP pool actually gives. In an ideal game. The extra health would enable the build to deal damage when other builds couldn’t evening out the overall dps. Making the squishier builds better during burst phases for quickly pushing to the next phase. But making the tankier dps builds more reliable once that burst phase was over and the boss resumed its aoe based attacks which force glassier builds to dodge more/interupt there attacks to avoid damage.
I don’t feel the game is at taht point yet. But without the ability to actually SEE how much the difference is. It’s hard to know what I SHOULD be asking for. I want the build to be used for what it is. Not artificially tack on extra mechanics until its overbloated and destabilizes the classes build diversity.
But I am probably not going to GET my wish to know how much that HP pool actually gives. Which means that unless we DO get a random x mechanic thrown in or dps increases, power reaper is likely doomed to remain in the sidelines due to its lower cap on damage.
(edited by Shadelang.3012)
the tradeoff is everything necro doesnt have that ele has. utility and survivability. necro would have similar damage to thief and ele but ele would still be better because of everything it can do. even now you have thief with similar dps to ele + lots of dodges. nobody complains on thief even though they are essentially immortal with invigorating precision. and you still dont see them in raids. but no necro has a lot of hp so they’re immortal…please. this argument is as ridiculous as the paranoia that ele time would be over. i simply want necro to be on par with at least 1 thing
Thing is, while the more HP and sustain is really helpful in Fractals, it means kitten in Raids. Why?
Simple. Bosses have Abilities that oneshot People, dealing % amount of damage from your health or having Attacks with very fast ticking Damage where even the necro will melt. And don’t forget that when you mess up mechanics or your Teammates are dead the extra HP doesn’t matter.
So yes it has better sustain but it really doesn’t matter in Raids. Compare the Power Necro to the PS Warrior who can not only dish out more Damage but also give your Group around 900 Points Might.
With the Way Power Necro is, the DPS should be around 28k- 30k
Thing is, while the more HP and sustain is really helpful in Fractals, it means kitten in Raids. Why?
Should skills/traits work differently only inside Raids then? We don’t have a PVE-PVP split, but you think they can make a Raid-PVE split?
you are ridiculous, go actually play a necro. i dare you to solo lupicus without sacrificing anything to do so
i do play necro. daily. im done with you. youve proven you only want a OP class so you can faceroll raids solo. bye
LOL
nice joke
Subli is absolutely right. The fact that you react like this shows that you have no idea about necro.
And also, you say “necro has plenty of HP so they should be weaker” yet you have warriors which can bring more DPS (even if just slightly so), have the same base HP, heavy armor and plenty of defensive options, if they wish to bring them. On top of that, they are capable of increasing group DPS by ridiculous amounts through various means just by… well, doing their thing. How again is the spot necro is in justified?
While I very much want power reaper to be a viable dps source, you could use this argument for nearly any pure power build, not already in the meta.
What anet needs to do is buff our condi in a non gimmicky way, so we are fully viable in the raids we once were viable in. We should be better than condi ranger, given that they can bring more group support than us and already have the role of best raid healer.
you are ridiculous, go actually play a necro. i dare you to solo lupicus without sacrificing anything to do so
i do play necro. daily. im done with you. youve proven you only want a OP class so you can faceroll raids solo. bye
LOL
nice jokeSubli is absolutely right. The fact that you react like this shows that you have no idea about necro.
And also, you say “necro has plenty of HP so they should be weaker” yet you have warriors which can bring more DPS (even if just slightly so), have the same base HP, heavy armor and plenty of defensive options, if they wish to bring them. On top of that, they are capable of increasing group DPS by ridiculous amounts through various means just by… well, doing their thing. How again is the spot necro is in justified?
Thank you for that post. I was in the mood to write almost the same thing.
The issue is simply that group damage per second is the ONLY measure of success in the current raid model – and that is unlikely to ever change.
Every profession can stay alive fairly easily (and kinda has to for the group to be successful) – so the fact that necros have more survivability is completely irrevelant in this game mode.
As long as professions like necros, engineers, revenants, etc do not increase the average damage output of the group (via either their own damage or group buffs), then they will always be considerably less valued than warriors, chronomancers, druids, elementalists who do up group damage.
The raid meta model isn’t the only makeup that can down raids (obviously), but the massive difference between its potential damage and that of lower performing group comps/playstyles/builds/etc has raids in a pretty bad place right now, imo.
Hi devs. Power reaper is weak. It needs a buff to be in par with thief/ele in dps. Then I can enjoy the raid content and people wouldn’t exclude me from playing. Look at ele you got 3 viable builds. Thief is somewhat the same dps. Ele still brings more utility. Look at necro, no utility and disastrous dps, 1 build recently butchered and 1 build worse than PS warr dps.
Btw same can be said about other builds like power engi for example. We need to get more versatility.
Yeah power necro is bad in raids. But having entire facets of a class be bad in raids is the norm for every class honestly. Only ele and druid have substantial variation in their “meta” builds and even they have entire skill/trait/weapon lines that are just awful. Every other class has 1-2 builds that it can use, with only very minor variations possible. Necro unfortunately has zero which sucks but I wouldn’t expect it to last forever.
Since you decided not to go with 10 man buffs and we have mirror comps, it opens 4 spots for dps class. Currently owned by ele or thief. I play power necro and I need this dps so i can be useful since I don’t bring ANY meaningful utility.
Sorry dude but necro utility is disgustingly good in raids. Epidemic is probably the single best non-support utility skill you could possibly bring to a raid, and Plague Signet is up there as well in several fights. CPC is also pretty good, necro gets a good amount of cc through warhorn, reaper’s shroud, and flesh golem, and you have better mobility than most classes with reaper’s shroud, which you take for free. Necro also can use most of its utility from range which is a huge advantage in many fights.
If necro DPS was as high as ele and thief if would be broken as hell. It deserves to be less than them given what it can do. The only reason necro doesn’t get used now is because its DPS is so unbelievably bad that its utility skills can’t make up for it.
It’s honestly a pretty simple situation. Necro just needs a numbers buff to some of its weapon skills. But there is no way in hell it should be dealing top tier personal DPS considering what it can do with condition manipulation.
you are ridiculous, go actually play a necro. i dare you to solo lupicus without sacrificing anything to do so
i do play necro. daily. im done with you. youve proven you only want a OP class so you can faceroll raids solo. bye
LOL
nice jokeSubli is absolutely right. The fact that you react like this shows that you have no idea about necro.
And also, you say “necro has plenty of HP so they should be weaker” yet you have warriors which can bring more DPS (even if just slightly so), have the same base HP, heavy armor and plenty of defensive options, if they wish to bring them. On top of that, they are capable of increasing group DPS by ridiculous amounts through various means just by… well, doing their thing. How again is the spot necro is in justified?
my warrior has shroud? NO WAY!!!!! i guess youll just ignore me everytime i say necro deserves a buff huh? just goes right over your head. ive said it in every post so far. but it does not deserve damage on par with eles.
The issue is simply that group damage per second is the ONLY measure of success in the current raid model – and that is unlikely to ever change.
Every profession can stay alive fairly easily (and kinda has to for the group to be successful) – so the fact that necros have more survivability is completely irrevelant in this game mode.
As long as professions like necros, engineers, revenants, etc do not increase the average damage output of the group (via either their own damage or group buffs), then they will always be considerably less valued than warriors, chronomancers, druids, elementalists who do up group damage.
The raid meta model isn’t the only makeup that can down raids (obviously), but the massive difference between its potential damage and that of lower performing group comps/playstyles/builds/etc has raids in a pretty bad place right now, imo.
This is not entirely true — condi necros can provide good utility on sloth and Matthias, but they are not high dps. Certain classes can provide important utility on other bosses as well.
I don’t think it’s a problem with raids per se, but balance. Anet seems to be incompetent or indifferent towards pve balance. Raids just bring that to the forefront.
don’t teach yo mama how to do sex. she knows.
that being said, it’s clear the discussion is pointless as the rational thoughts and arguments are continuously met with ridiculous statements that don’t have any reflection in the real gameplay. i only hope if the balance team reads this thread, they would see the unfairness necro suffers from and not the emotional and paranoic thoughts of some of our contributors here.
don’t teach yo mama how to do sex. she knows.
that being said, it’s clear the discussion is pointless as the rational thoughts and arguments are continuously met with ridiculous statements that don’t have any reflection in the real gameplay. i only hope if the balance team reads this thread, they would see the unfairness necro suffers from and not the emotional and paranoic thoughts of some of our contributors here.
Somehow, I think everyone agrees necro needs a buff. Everyone also brought their other agendas to the table, which is stifling discussion.
Humble Wishlist:
- Corrupting Aura Grants up to 5 nearby allies +150 expertise.
- Well of Corruption dealing the same damage as Well of Suffering
- Hugely reduce the aftercast on Greatsword autoattack chain
- Make Nightfall pulse blind and damage per second instead of every 2 seconds
Necro definitely needs a buff to compensate for the lich form nerf- not a whole lot, but just enough to justify it occupying a dps slot. Right now, necro dps has fallen so low that there really is no reason to bring a necro into a dps slot. But if we’re trying to be positive, at least necros aren’t in the same boat as revenants. Oh boy, poor rev mains.
Alas, no one here is actually asking for Necro to do as much damage as elems. What I have said is very specific: we have a huge health pool and it is worthless because it does not allow you to survive better than others. Let me repeat that, high HP is useless in guild wars 2. As elementalists you have tons of knockbacks, traits like gale song, overloads with stun breaks, and tons of heals if you want survivability. There is no tradeoff for your damage too, as long as your dodge button works and your framerate is alright, you can block/become invulnerable/dodge through anything. People that say necro has higher survivability obviously underestimate the vigor boon.
The triumphant factor for Necro in terms of survivability is the shroud, and let me repeat how the health itself makes no difference in how a Necro or Elem can survive. Now, the shroud locks us away from utility skills and gives us 4 measly skills that are only there so that we don’t stand still while tanking stuff. It also removes most things like bundles and such (unlike elem overloads) and so are more or less not usable with creativity like Mes portals and blinks. Therefore our survival relies on, generally, a huge drop in damage, unless you trait for Soul Reaping (but you wanted to be a greatsword necro and not a dhuumfire auto attacker, didn’t you?).
So, instead of either dropping Necro’s health, dropping elem damage or directly increasing Necro’s damage with no tradeoff, we could simply reshape some skills to cost health while greatly increasing damage or giving support, just like the Shroud skills already costs life force. It would make things interesting in that two different playstyles (glass cannon and blood-spending-thingie) would bring the same overall effect to the table and require the same attention from the rest of the group (e.g druids will have just as much work as before).
Also since this topic is specifically about the place of Power Necro inside raids, this is the primary focus for our balance suggestions here. But this one would also be fine for the rest of PvE (specially fractals where Necros would then lose their “edge” by having to actually have reason to spend their life instead of sitting behind lines and screaming RISE RISE RISE).
Alas, no one here is actually asking for Necro to do as much damage as elems.
umm have you read my original post? this is exactly what im asking for
you are ridiculous, go actually play a necro. i dare you to solo lupicus without sacrificing anything to do so
i do play necro. daily. im done with you. youve proven you only want a OP class so you can faceroll raids solo. bye
LOL
nice jokeSubli is absolutely right. The fact that you react like this shows that you have no idea about necro.
And also, you say “necro has plenty of HP so they should be weaker” yet you have warriors which can bring more DPS (even if just slightly so), have the same base HP, heavy armor and plenty of defensive options, if they wish to bring them. On top of that, they are capable of increasing group DPS by ridiculous amounts through various means just by… well, doing their thing. How again is the spot necro is in justified?my warrior has shroud? NO WAY!!!!! i guess youll just ignore me everytime i say necro deserves a buff huh? just goes right over your head. ive said it in every post so far. but it does not deserve damage on par with eles.
The point is that shroud is absolutely trash for defense and going into it is a dps loss on power necro.
I’m not saying it should be ele tier damage, not sure where you got that from, but it isn’t close to deserving being absolute garbage-tier dps while also bringing nothing else meaningful to the squad.
you are ridiculous, go actually play a necro. i dare you to solo lupicus without sacrificing anything to do so
i do play necro. daily. im done with you. youve proven you only want a OP class so you can faceroll raids solo. bye
LOL
nice jokeSubli is absolutely right. The fact that you react like this shows that you have no idea about necro.
And also, you say “necro has plenty of HP so they should be weaker” yet you have warriors which can bring more DPS (even if just slightly so), have the same base HP, heavy armor and plenty of defensive options, if they wish to bring them. On top of that, they are capable of increasing group DPS by ridiculous amounts through various means just by… well, doing their thing. How again is the spot necro is in justified?my warrior has shroud? NO WAY!!!!! i guess youll just ignore me everytime i say necro deserves a buff huh? just goes right over your head. ive said it in every post so far. but it does not deserve damage on par with eles.
The point is that shroud is absolutely trash for defense and going into it is a dps loss on power necro.
I’m not saying it should be ele tier damage, not sure where you got that from, but it isn’t close to deserving being absolute garbage-tier dps while also bringing nothing else meaningful to the squad.
Not that I disagree with your point as a whole but again, saying necro brings nothing meaningful besides its DPS is completely wrong. Just Epidemic and Plague Signet is better utility than every non-support class, and necro has plenty more useful tricks. Necro’s problem is literally only the fact that its DPS is 50-70% that of other classes.
Other classes have much more complex problems but tbh necro is a fairly well designed class overall, it just has poor numbers atm.
plague signet is useless when you can clear condis aoe from entire party (druid while using offensive skills, ele whenever needed can just cast healing rain and continue dpsing)
epidemic is useless because all adds are cleaved down immediately after pull.
necro is terribly designed. if it was decently designed, the problems it faces now wouldn’t be that severe
you are ridiculous, go actually play a necro. i dare you to solo lupicus without sacrificing anything to do so
i do play necro. daily. im done with you. youve proven you only want a OP class so you can faceroll raids solo. bye
LOL
nice jokeSubli is absolutely right. The fact that you react like this shows that you have no idea about necro.
And also, you say “necro has plenty of HP so they should be weaker” yet you have warriors which can bring more DPS (even if just slightly so), have the same base HP, heavy armor and plenty of defensive options, if they wish to bring them. On top of that, they are capable of increasing group DPS by ridiculous amounts through various means just by… well, doing their thing. How again is the spot necro is in justified?my warrior has shroud? NO WAY!!!!! i guess youll just ignore me everytime i say necro deserves a buff huh? just goes right over your head. ive said it in every post so far. but it does not deserve damage on par with eles.
The point is that shroud is absolutely trash for defense and going into it is a dps loss on power necro.
I’m not saying it should be ele tier damage, not sure where you got that from, but it isn’t close to deserving being absolute garbage-tier dps while also bringing nothing else meaningful to the squad.Not that I disagree with your point as a whole but again, saying necro brings nothing meaningful besides its DPS is completely wrong. Just Epidemic and Plague Signet is better utility than every non-support class, and necro has plenty more useful tricks. Necro’s problem is literally only the fact that its DPS is 50-70% that of other classes.
Other classes have much more complex problems but tbh necro is a fairly well designed class overall, it just has poor numbers atm.
The problem with this is, while cpc/epi/plague signet etc. can definitely be good utility skills, they’re heavily condi biased and make a power necro perform indirectly or even directly (cpc self weakness for example) worse. If we want to rephrase this then let me say that power necro needs meaningful support.
Plague signet is only worthwhile at Matt, on Xera you generally want to avoid bringing condis otherwise it wouldn’t be bad there either and like Sublimatio pointed out – Epidemic is great, but only as long as adds aren’t just pulled in and cleaved down, like every proper group would do. Leaves bouncing which is pretty good, but in the current state of necro not worth taking two for because you just lose so much more. CPC is good utility for condi necs, but absolutely horrendous for power like I already said.
Everything else is either highly gimmicky/not necessary/a (highly) kitten version of something another class can do.
necro is terribly designed. if it was decently designed, the problems it faces now wouldn’t be that severe
I disagree with this point in particular. The necromancer’s design is fine, it just needs meaningful offensive support and meaningful personal damage.
necro is terribly designed. if it was decently designed, the problems it faces now wouldn’t be that severe
I disagree with this point in particular. The necromancer’s design is fine, it just needs meaningful offensive support and meaningful personal damage.
isn’t the lack of it part of the design? it was designed to “be slow and selfish” which of course doesn’t work in this game
isn’t the lack of it part of the design? it was designed to “be slow and selfish” which of course doesn’t work in this game
I don’t want to be pedantic about it, but if the necro were terribly designed then it would need a lot more than a few changes to be competitive. The reality, however, is that ANet has already proven that they can and will incorporate team support into the necromancer class (Vampiric Presence / BiP AOE Might / Transfusion / etc), they just need to do more of it and it needs to emphasize offensive support.
Not that I disagree with your point as a whole but again, saying necro brings nothing meaningful besides its DPS is completely wrong. Just Epidemic and Plague Signet is better utility than every non-support class, and necro has plenty more useful tricks. Necro’s problem is literally only the fact that its DPS is 50-70% that of other classes.
Other classes have much more complex problems but tbh necro is a fairly well designed class overall, it just has poor numbers atm.
The problem with this is, while cpc/epi/plague signet etc. can definitely be good utility skills, they’re heavily condi biased and make a power necro perform indirectly or even directly (cpc self weakness for example) worse. If we want to rephrase this then let me say that power necro needs meaningful support.
Plague signet is only worthwhile at Matt, on Xera you generally want to avoid bringing condis otherwise it wouldn’t be bad there either and like Sublimatio pointed out – Epidemic is great, but only as long as adds aren’t just pulled in and cleaved down, like every proper group would do. Leaves bouncing which is pretty good, but in the current state of necro not worth taking two for because you just lose so much more. CPC is good utility for condi necs, but absolutely horrendous for power like I already said.
Everything else is either highly gimmicky/not necessary/a (highly) kitten version of something another class can do.
I would agree that necro’s utility is much better on condi builds than power ones, but it isn’t like power has absolutely nothing. GS has a pull, and your wells contribute to group protection. You can also trait transfuse, and honestly epi bouncing is so good that in a multiple necro comp you would take it anyway. You also still have solid CC.
Regardless, power necro obviously doesn’t have good enough utility to make up for its awful damage. It really just needs better damage on power weapons. There is more than enough condi manipulation support on necro to make using CPC, epi, plague signet, etc worthwhile on power necro if it dealt enough damage. Weapon DPS is still the issue, because if you don’t need to use your utility slots just to eke out mediocre damage then you can bring meaningful utility. This is the same problem engineer builds have – its weapon damage is so horrible that it needs to use all of its utility slots just to meet damage that another class could do while also bringing utility.
Compare this to something like hammer guard that has utility that’s pretty good but not out-of-this-world-insane like warrior, druid, and chrono – aoe prot, a bit of fury and quickness, group stability, a pull, aegis. Necro has much better support than that, even if only situationally, and engineer has comparable support. The difference is that guardian deals its damage by pressing 1, and actually has the chance to use its utility.
So even on power necro the the support skills aren’t bad. The problem is that you can’t bring them without losing a ton of damage because power necro’s weapon skills are so bad.
necro is terribly designed. if it was decently designed, the problems it faces now wouldn’t be that severe
I disagree with this point in particular. The necromancer’s design is fine, it just needs meaningful offensive support and meaningful personal damage.
I don’t mind offensive support in general but skills/traits like Vampiric Presence that give a benefit for doing nothing are really horrible design for raids. They force the class to be in a situation where their personal DPS has to be low since their group DPS is high, and since you get the boosts for free it doesn’t matter that much how well you play. Look at warrior – a great warrior player can probably push out 3-4k more DPS than a crappy one, but when the personal DPS is under 20k and the group DPS is over 50k who cares? Almost the entire benefit comes from just existing in the fight. Offensive support skills and traits should force you to actually do something to get them, like Grace of the Land requiring you to use astral skills or alacrity requiring use of wells or shield 4. Stuff like spotter, spirits, banners, EA, assassin’s presence, and vamp aura are stupid in raids, and I would rather Vamp Aura just remain crappy and give necro more personal DPS instead.
Stuff like spotter, spirits, banners, EA, assassin’s presence, and vamp aura are stupid in raids, and I would rather Vamp Aura just remain crappy and give necro more personal DPS instead.
I’m quoting this to say how much I agree with. Increasing the damage potential of others just by being AFK near them is terrible design.
While I agree that things like “Gain X power based on Y% of <OTHER STAT>” are too passive, I think things like Empower Allies or Spotter are nice class-defining buffs that strongly discourage class-stacking and add specialization value without blatantly changing the way you have to play the class. If every class just does a ton of damage, then class-stacking becomes a real problem.
They could always keep these buffs and tie them to other actions, sure, but that may not be practical and can result in a lot of them being good on paper and useless in practice. I also think hooking all of these buffs to actions would either interrupt the flow of a class or happen so easily that they might as well have stayed passive.
For instance, consider this option:
Empower Allies: Every time you strike with a burst skill, you grant Empower Allies (+150 power) to up to 5 nearby allies for 10 seconds.
That might sound ‘active’, but it’s really no better design than the passive mode because now it’s a risk if you get blinded/disabled and during normal play you have it permanently anyway. Functionally you’ve added no depth to the class, you’ve just made the trait harder to understand and easy to counter for no good reason.
Grace of the Land, however, is an example of it being implemented pretty well; the player is forced (even on DPS builds) to use a healing-based CA skillset to some extent as part of their rotation to achieve an even higher level of team support.
The problem is that if they took the GotL approach for core classes, they’d interrupt the flow of the class. What if suddenly, Elementalist gave damage bonuses to allies when they used water skills? Your DPS builds would end up feeling weird (and lots of people would complain) because they couldn’t just camp fire or alternate fire/air, and would have to balance some measure of water spam for team support. Elite specs, however, are a great place to do this because by definition they alter the playstyle of the class (and thus players are more receptive to the flow change).
Anyway, these are all things that I know ANet is thinking about. We need to think about them as well.
(edited by Rising Dusk.2408)
Well you got to much sustain to get same dps as thief and elem would you be willing to lose shroud to compensate?
Apparently you haven’t seen thief sustain, or the fact ele’s can heal themselves consistently.
ele and thief get 1 hit constantly in raids. maybe play one for awhile and see the struggle.
I have 1k+ hours on my necro, and 800 on my thief. I started this game off playing thief when people considered them trash tier and even refused to take them in dungeons. If you are being one shot in raids as a thief. Maybe you should drop some dps and pick up a slightly tankier set. Seriously, 3 dodges, a 2.5sec block, and multiple ways to keep topped off hp, and constant endurance regen. You should barely even get hit if you are playing the thief well.
There is not struggle atm for thieves, they have a defined dps role. And even support (venom share/tank venom share). And there is DEFINATELY no struggle for eles. A class that has protection uptime almost as good as a revs, and multiple skills to block/become invuln. All while having massive support and massive personal dps.
Necro has neither of these. Mediocre dps, terrible support, and mediocre survivability because they are literally little skills to supplement the high hp pool. If you take the traits for protection you are dropping your dps even lower.
(edited by FrostDraco.8306)
While I agree that things like “Gain X power based on Y% of <OTHER STAT>” are too passive, I think things like Empower Allies or Spotter are nice class-defining buffs that strongly discourage class-stacking and add specialization value without blatantly changing the way you have to play the class. If every class just does a ton of damage, then class-stacking becomes a real problem.
I understand the idea of the class defining buffs, There can be class-defining buffs that aren’t so good that the class becomes mandatory in raids. EA and Spotter wouldn’t be so stupid if the buffs they gave were actually in line with the power levels of other trait buffs. Warrior has a master major trait called Armored Attack that gives 10% of toughness as power – in practice this is usually 100 power. With a stupid build it could be let’s say 200 power. Warrior has another master major trait called Empower Allies, which gives 150 power baseline and has an duration 3x longer than its application interval so it can affect 6-7 players. That’s like 900 total stat points for a single master major trait. The power level of that and several other passives are total bullkitten, so they 100% must be taken for every raid fight. Oh and warrior has banners that give even larger bonuses as well, so you could have a warrior literally use no skills except banners and his group DPS will be about as good as most DPs classes. It’s completely absurd.
Also class stacking is already a huge problem, I don’t see how changing class specific support buffs could possibly make it any worse.
They could always keep these buffs and tie them to other actions, sure, but that may not be practical and can result in a lot of them being good on paper and useless in practice. I also think hooking all of these buffs to actions would either interrupt the flow of a class or happen so easily that they might as well have stayed passive.
For instance, consider this option:
Empower Allies: Every time you strike with a burst skill, you grant Empower Allies (+150 power) to up to 5 nearby allies for 10 seconds.
That might sound ‘active’, but it’s really no better design than the passive mode because now it’s a risk if you get blinded/disabled and during normal play you have it permanently anyway. Functionally you’ve added no depth to the class, you’ve just made the trait harder to understand and easy to counter for no good reason.
Just because you thought of an implementation and called it crappy doesn’t mean that a good implementation isn’t possible. There are only a small handful of such skills in the game, surely given enough time anet could come up with a decent way to implement them.
Or I would be totally fine with these kinds of traits and skills just being removed, changed, or severely nerfed in raids. Even besides how boring and powerful they are, they take the place of other potentially useful and more active skills. Warrior at this point might as well just have only one utility slot and the game just gives everyone the banner buffs.
There are other less considered stupidities as well, such as the abundance of free precision making power and precision into equivalent stats on most classes. Engineer has the odd misfortune of huge amount of free personal crit chance, meaning they become comparatively worse by not being able to make use of all the free stats.
Grace of the Land, however, is an example of it being implemented pretty well; the player is forced (even on DPS builds) to use a healing-based CA skillset to some extent as part of their rotation to achieve an even higher level of team support.
The problem is that if they took the GotL approach for core classes, they’d interrupt the flow of the class. What if suddenly, Elementalist gave damage bonuses to allies when they used water skills? Your DPS builds would end up feeling weird (and lots of people would complain) because they couldn’t just camp fire or alternate fire/air, and would have to balance some measure of water spam for team support. Elite specs, however, are a great place to do this because by definition they alter the playstyle of the class (and thus players are more receptive to the flow change).
I never said anything about giving more support buffs to other classes, and especially not to core classes. I think that’s a horrible idea. Support buffs on core classes is basically current warrior, which is going to be going PSEA with 2 banners in raids until the end of time unless the base class is changed.
Oh and remember when warrior was top tier DPS and meta comps were like 6+ warriors? Because that’s what we have to look forward to again if any of the current top tier support classes also get a good dps elite spec, or another good support spec, or – god forbid – both.