Guild Wars 2

My understanding of what dungeons were going to be like may differ from how ANet actually wants them to be.

My understanding of what dungeons were going to be was that story mode was for pick up groups and explorable mode dungeons were for highly coordinated groups of 5 people (probably with some type of voice communication). This was to fill the “raid” itch for those that love raiding. I love the idea of five man group “raiding” cause I hate organizing 15 – 50 people.

Currently imo explorable dungeons are not this way. I can pick up any 4 level 80 people in Lion’s Arch and run pretty much any explorable dungeon. We my die a lot but given enough time we will win. It doesn’t feel epic and mostly it just feels like every other MMO dungeon run. Fun to do with friends but you don’t get a sense of super accomplishment once you beat it.

So my idea is to make a dungeon mode (lets call it raid mode) that would be different from story or explorable. These would be seperate dungeons with new bosses/mechanics that would be specifically harder for a “raid” encounter.

The first thing these “raid” mode dungeons would have is only one waypoint (the first one). Zerging from the closest way point does not feel epic. It feels like cheating. If I can’t down a boss without dying 20 times then I’ve lost to the boss and don’t deserve to beat it.

The second thing these “raid” mode dungeons need would be a timer and/or perma death. Lets have some real consequences for wiping to a boss. If the dungeon has a timer then you can’t just keep attacking the boss hoping to get lucky at some point and beat it. The timer puts pressure (aka why raids are fun for some of us) on getting things right the first time.

The third thing these “raid” mode dungeons need is once you win you get a piece of loot. How explorable mode dungeons are now is you run it 6 times and win 6 times and get one piece of armor. The formula I would like to see is run it 10 times win 1 time and get one piece of armor. I want the possibility of failure. I want to fail a lot. So when I win it feels legendary and I will talk about it for years with the friends that I completed it with. This is what I enjoy about “raiding”.

I love this game and if it never has anything close to this I will still keep playing it but adding something like this would be SOOOO cool.

Thanks.

I would enjoy that immensely. Excellent suggestion.

I couldn’t agree more, OP. Hopefully ANet will come around finally.

I don’t totaly agree, but I agree mostly with you. We DO need hard mode of some kind for dungeons. Just like diablo has inferno mode which people could not beat for a while (mostly because of equipment, but whatever). I want that feel! Something hard like hell but with slight possibility to get a really good reward.

matjazmuhic.1649:

I don’t totaly agree, but I agree mostly with you. We DO need hard mode of some kind for dungeons. Just like diablo has inferno mode which people could not beat for a while (mostly because of equipment, but whatever). I want that feel! Something hard like hell but with slight possibility to get a really good reward.

Diablo 3 Inferno was beaten in less than a week btw. But I do agree the current exploration mode needs a complete uplift if this is the pinnacle of GW2 PvE challenges.

Bring back the GW1 Elite area system.

You wipe, you’re out.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

Bring back the GW1 Elite area system.

You wipe, you’re out.

This. I cannot for the life of me understand why you are allowed to continue a dungeon after your entire party wipes.

Some counter points:

GW1 Dungeons never kicked you for party wiping. This is not the way ANet has designed the content, and why should they change. I would stop playing this game if I spend 30 minutes or more to reach a final boss and for whatever reason party wiped and had to restart… just to get item rewards.

About Elite areas in GW1 having this mechanic: UW could be argued that it has an end boss, however this end boss was not the most difficult thing to kill when implemented and dying to him brought you back (thus you were never really dead, you only failed if you failed to protect the Reapers). Next FoW, it had no end boss, just various quests thus cannot truly be compared to a GW2 dungeon. Finally DOA had a quest system so that as long as you completed the areas quest your progress was saved, which is basically how it works now.

As for a timer, unless it was rolled into the fights mechanic similar to Orr bosses I would be 100% against this. For what reason am I being timed to kill an enemy, just because you want it harder? Sorry, I prefer atleast a little immersion in my games, otherwise why play a game over any other form of goal based activity.

Your final point – beat a dungeon get a piece of loot. That is EXACTLY how it works now. Finish a dungeon (Note dungeon, not a path, finish the dungeon) and you get 180 tokens which can be traded for various items. Sure, some things take more than 1 run to get, but this substitues random loot drop for goal based loot, which is a far better solution then hoping you get the item you need.

My suggestion would be the addition of elite areas rather than the modification of dungeons. You cant have easy content (Leveling 1-80 and story) and then jump purely into hard content. You also need middle ground which is what dungeons should really be.

Parisal, if you died as a ghost you DID fully die. I question how much time you actually spent in UW. Progress in DoA was only saved to an extent. If you completed DoA area-by-area, you received less reward than if you completed the entire area in one run.

For the dungeon point, that is also wrong. If your party were to reach 60% DP in HARD MODE, you were kicked out of the dungeon. This was easily avoided via the use of party wide DP removal, but it was still an apparent mechanic.

I agree with the addition of elite areas, but in my opinion the story mode lines should act as the ‘easy mode’ or introduction to dungeons. Explorable should represent HM.

EDIT:

For those unfamiliar with the GW1 Hard mode dungeon system; it used essentially the same system as GW2 dungeons via having res points available but ONLY after a full party wipe. You were also restricted to 4 or 5 full party wipes before you were kicked out of the dungeon UNLESS, you removed death penalty somehow. You received 15% D.P per death, it stacked to 60%. Either at or after your party hit 60% D.P you were kicked from the dungeon. This is only relevant to HM.

I don’t want to split hairs, But i do remember missions and elite areas in GW1 (FoW/UW) displaying the “Alas, your party was defeated.” message after a full party wipe, and only giving you the choice to return to outpost. The res shrines were only usable in the explorable areas.

I respect the OP’s opinion, but I don’t agree on all points. Dungeons feel plenty epic to me (especially after overcoming a difficult segment) after those “firsts”, though, things DO become routine as there is no mystery left… Until the next tweek/rebalance.

I think what you’re looking for is a sense of urgency.

I would hate to see a rage timer in these dungeons but wouldn’t mind the waypoints having limited uses. The party wipe mechanic from GW1 might add some pressure to perform. Personally, I think a simple modification (note i didnt say “solution”) would be to remove the armor repair anvil. That might add some real consequence for failure if you continue to die a lot as you stated your PuGs may do.

The point however is that GW2 Dungeons should be compared to GW1 Dungeons… since you know, they are both dungeons. 60%DP Wipe is not failing if you wipe the way they are talking. In GW1 no matter where you were in HM if you hit that mark you werent coming back regardless of if you were in a dungeon or not. In the 7 years I played GW1 never once did I have a party that wiped due to 60%DP. The OPs suggestion is to kick you regardless of if this was your first death. This is not at all comparable.

As for UW it was near impossible to get taken down in Ghost form unless you were an idiot that decided to go try and tank him. He just flat out would ignore you. For DOA these waypoints that are added after defeating an enemy are exactly the same as reaching your quest completion for a zone in DOA. If you beat it and wiped you could start again in only the zones you needed. In dungeons, once I beat the boss for a zone I get a way point and am not forced to go through the whole thing. Difference being if the dungeon resets then you lose progress (though this is similar in a sense to DOA and just clearing your quest log since you can leave dungeons and keep progress, but at that point its just semantics).

This is beside the fact because as I mention earlier Elite Zones != Dungeons.

Last note – in your edit you fail to mention that killing enemies removes DP (you just say get rid of it, killing enemies quickly and easily got rid of DP).

Flabber Babble.8720:

I don’t want to split hairs, But i do remember missions and elite areas in GW1 (FoW/UW) displaying the “Alas, your party was defeated.” message after a full party wipe, and only giving you the choice to return to outpost. The res shrines were only usable in the explorable areas.

I respect the OP’s opinion, but I don’t agree on all points. Dungeons feel plenty epic to me (especially after overcoming a difficult segment) after those “firsts”, though, things DO become routine as there is no mystery left… Until the next tweek/rebalance.

I think what you’re looking for is a sense of urgency.

I would hate to see a rage timer in these dungeons but wouldn’t mind the waypoints having limited uses. The party wipe mechanic from GW1 might add some pressure to perform. Personally, I think a simple modification (note i didnt say “solution”) would be to remove the armor repair anvil. That might add some real consequence for failure if you continue to die a lot as you stated your PuGs may do.

You would insta fail on wipe during elite zones and missions only. Neither of which should hold bearing in a conversation about dungeons.

Your suggestion for removing the Anvil is atually quite a good one that I can get behind. Its directly comparable to DP in the sense that you can get rid of it by using consumables, but without it you could potentially fail.

Hard Mode would be very fun for dungeons. However, I hope they don’t implement timers as part of it. ANet did that with Factions missions, and rushing through everything was not fun for me, nor was having to redo missions for having taken 10sec too long. Also, timers might encourage DPS-race mechanics which would be counter-productive for a game that is trying to cater to various play styles. I know my main is not spec’ed for her optimal DPS, and I would regret having to give up the support/DPS hybrid style.

GW used death limitations to boot players from instances rather extensively, in much the same way the OP is suggesting. From what I remember, all of GW’s elite areas (UW, FoW, DoA, Urgoz, and Deep) were set up very similarly to GW2’s dungeons, with task-oriented progression, but used the kick-on-party-wipe mechanic. DoA was essentially four separate dungeons that just happened to offer additional loot if you completed them back-to-back (an anti-solo-farming incentive which was well thought-out IMO). The alternative was vanquishing, where the party was booted at 60%DP.

I think removing the armor repair anvil in HM would be a good start, especially since that’s how ANet had GW2’s dungeons set up originally. I don’t necessarily see a need to remove waypoints, but rather deactivate all but the first during boss fights (same as having them be contested in general PvE). That way, as a team progresses farther into a dungeon, it becomes less functional to simply respawn and run back during boss fights. It would also encourage teams to actually clear trash mobs, rather than run past.

Excellent suggestions. I hope Anet considers these and implements them in the future. I don’t care if they make the encounters impossibly hard – like you said it just makes it even more rewarding to beat it. You get a good sense of accomplishment. Instead of dungeon tokens, you get 1 piece of gear from that dungeon set or something exotic.

precisioNist, as it stand right now you can do 1 dungeon and get 1 piece of gear. A dungeon path is not the full dungeon. Do all 3 paths (which constitutes a dungeon) and get 180 tokens which can be used for to get 1 of 3 armor piece, saved for more expensive armor piece, or traded other various items. I dont understand how adding in a random drop which may or may not even be useful to you would add anything to the sense of accomplishment of a dungeon. In fact I argue that by making the end reward a drop you diminish the sense of accomplishment when I finish a dungeon and get an item that is worthless to me or a duplicate of something I already had.

Well, when I said dungeon I actually meant one dungeon path.

And for the loot reward, I was just echoing the OP. I haven’t actually thought about this that much to point out the best way for this to be done but all I know is I want harder content that will feel rewarding.

precisioNist.2071:

Well, when I said dungeon I actually meant one dungeon path.

And for the loot reward, I was just echoing the OP. I haven’t actually thought about this that much to point out the best way for this to be done but all I know is I want harder content that will feel rewarding.

I think we can all agree that we would like to see some changes to dungeons, but Anet have made very deliberate attempts to separate themselves from the mold of MMOs. I dont think the solution for dungeons is going to be reverting to the standard that you see in every other game. If that were the case, why play GW2?

Interesting suggestions. I like them, and would like to see them evolve in the hands of Anet;)

Raid mode dungeons with extreme conditions to beat seems very enjoyable in terms of challenge:)

Also, make the boss taller and bigger so they feel more threatening. Lupicus is tall and big, its fun running around HUGE areas to beat a boss. Most of the gw2 boss seem to be confined in a tiny area and to a Norn they are average to short in size.

Parisalchuk.9230:

precisioNist.2071:

Well, when I said dungeon I actually meant one dungeon path.

And for the loot reward, I was just echoing the OP. I haven’t actually thought about this that much to point out the best way for this to be done but all I know is I want harder content that will feel rewarding.

I think we can all agree that we would like to see some changes to dungeons, but Anet have made very deliberate attempts to separate themselves from the mold of MMOs. I dont think the solution for dungeons is going to be reverting to the standard that you see in every other game. If that were the case, why play GW2?

Standard in every other game? What does that even mean? I’ve never addressed any other games on my post. Are you saying GW2 is only for players who can’t handle harder content? I don’t get it.

Dungeons already exist in the game. I was just echoing a suggestion that would add the “same” type of dungeons in the game with harder difficulty and better rewards. The system is already in the game I would just like the difficulty to be more punishing for players who aren’t ready for it. ArenaNet never said that GW2 can’t have more challenging content. (I never mentioned having 20man raids or new epic raid exclusive loot which are things every other MMO have).

By the way, I LOVE Guild Wars 2. This is why I’m trying to get suggestions out there about things that in my opinion would make the game better than it already is. Because I’m planning to play this game for a LONG time. I don’t want it to fail or run out of content.

Pastor T.5392:

My understanding of what dungeons were going to be like may differ from how ANet actually wants them to be.

My understanding of what dungeons were going to be was that story mode was for pick up groups and explorable mode dungeons were for highly coordinated groups of 5 people (probably with some type of voice communication). This was to fill the “raid” itch for those that love raiding. I love the idea of five man group “raiding” cause I hate organizing 15 – 50 people.

Currently imo explorable dungeons are not this way. I can pick up any 4 level 80 people in Lion’s Arch and run pretty much any explorable dungeon. We my die a lot but given enough time we will win. It doesn’t feel epic and mostly it just feels like every other MMO dungeon run. Fun to do with friends but you don’t get a sense of super accomplishment once you beat it.

So my idea is to make a dungeon mode (lets call it raid mode) that would be different from story or explorable. These would be seperate dungeons with new bosses/mechanics that would be specifically harder for a “raid” encounter.

The first thing these “raid” mode dungeons would have is only one waypoint (the first one). Zerging from the closest way point does not feel epic. It feels like cheating. If I can’t down a boss without dying 20 times then I’ve lost to the boss and don’t deserve to beat it.

The second thing these “raid” mode dungeons need would be a timer and/or perma death. Lets have some real consequences for wiping to a boss. If the dungeon has a timer then you can’t just keep attacking the boss hoping to get lucky at some point and beat it. The timer puts pressure (aka why raids are fun for some of us) on getting things right the first time.

The third thing these “raid” mode dungeons need is once you win you get a piece of loot. How explorable mode dungeons are now is you run it 6 times and win 6 times and get one piece of armor. The formula I would like to see is run it 10 times win 1 time and get one piece of armor. I want the possibility of failure. I want to fail a lot. So when I win it feels legendary and I will talk about it for years with the friends that I completed it with. This is what I enjoy about “raiding”.

I love this game and if it never has anything close to this I will still keep playing it but adding something like this would be SOOOO cool.

Thanks.

I’m not exactly sure what they need to change, but I would like the changes to focus on making the boss fights feel epic and more fun to fight out.

Right now the best boss fights that I have played in a current MMORPG with no holy trinity etc are the Vindictus raid boss fights. Those fights seem to differ in that you seem to be able to have just enough time and have just enough of a clear view to see how the boss moves and attacks and you are thus able to learn how to counter and when to counter. I like that element of game play. It’s just fun. I find the GW2 bosses don’t seem to behave and move like that. They seem to be moving a bit too fast or jerky or the game’s particle effects and AOE system makes it too hard to see exactly what is going on so the fight seems more random and “spamy” and just boring.

I agree with most of your points OP.

In terms of timers, I would absolutely love this. But rather than timer being restrictive, eg where if you don’t complete the run in 30 minutes you don’t get reward, I would rather see it being a goal. For example, if you complete the run in 20 minutes you get extra rewards and if you complete it in 10 or 15 minutes you get another added extra reward, to add incentive to efficiency. This would really push the synergy and teamwork of the group, especially if the bosses were stupidly insanely difficult mechanically. (Please no insane HP pools + dodge circles!) You can’t go wrong with adds, imo

Another thing I would like to see hapkitten an 8 player dungeon elite zone, but the effort required to implement this would probably require it to be added in an expansion.

precisioNist.2071:

Parisalchuk.9230:

precisioNist.2071:

Well, when I said dungeon I actually meant one dungeon path.

And for the loot reward, I was just echoing the OP. I haven’t actually thought about this that much to point out the best way for this to be done but all I know is I want harder content that will feel rewarding.

I think we can all agree that we would like to see some changes to dungeons, but Anet have made very deliberate attempts to separate themselves from the mold of MMOs. I dont think the solution for dungeons is going to be reverting to the standard that you see in every other game. If that were the case, why play GW2?

Standard in every other game? What does that even mean? I’ve never addressed any other games on my post. Are you saying GW2 is only for players who can’t handle harder content? I don’t get it.

Dungeons already exist in the game. I was just echoing a suggestion that would add the “same” type of dungeons in the game with harder difficulty and better rewards. The system is already in the game I would just like the difficulty to be more punishing for players who aren’t ready for it. ArenaNet never said that GW2 can’t have more challenging content. (I never mentioned having 20man raids or new epic raid exclusive loot which are things every other MMO have).

By the way, I LOVE Guild Wars 2. This is why I’m trying to get suggestions out there about things that in my opinion would make the game better than it already is. Because I’m planning to play this game for a LONG time. I don’t want it to fail or run out of content.

The way loot would be distributed via the OPs suggestion, the suggestion you openly support, is the same system used in most popular MMOs to date. That is specifically what I am talking about (your argument about you not addressing other games makes no sense by the way… your talking about a loot system that is featured in the majority of other MMO games – Beat the boss get a random drop, so my argument is very valid). Besides the fact that this system of random drops does not provide ‘better loot’ as you argue. A random system of loot drop is not a better system and I STILL wait for you to give me a reason as to why it is. To support this argument one final time I would like to point to the story. Players were very upset that at the end of the game you are given random loot bags rather than a token which could be traded for an item of their choosing that shows their accomplishment of completion. Please, how is completing a dungeon any different, and thus would provide different results. When you beat story you had a chance for Exotic or rare items…

As I stated in another thread, the answer for more difficult content should not be any adjustment to the dungeon system but rather the introduction of elite zones similar to GW1. Note that this is very different from a hardmode version of dungeon as the OP suggested. Right now dungeons have their own structure that is very specific; fight smaller enemies leading to a boss in a very linear fashion. Elite areas akin to GW1 would involve nonlinear missions that must be accomplished to win.

Yes i think dungeons should be-more like this, they need more challenge and uniqueness

precisioNist.2071:

Well, when I said dungeon I actually meant one dungeon path.

And for the loot reward, I was just echoing the OP. I haven’t actually thought about this that much to point out the best way for this to be done but all I know is I want harder content that will feel rewarding.

Umm ok, so I don’t really understand why you take my words as though I have an elaborate thought out plan on how to do the best rewarding loot system for this. I already said this on a previous post and so for your questions about loot, I don’t have a thought out answer for you.

All I’ve said from the beginning was supporting the OP’s suggestions (because it sounded good to me) of:
1. Making some dungeon encounters harder.
2. Rewarding them appropriately for the completion of such dungeons.

I never claimed to have the solution to the problems you’re posing about loot. So I don’t know what kind of answer you’re still waiting for.

Also, whether you like it or not, GW2 has already adapted other systems from other MMOs. GW2 doesn’t have to be different for the sake of being different, it just has to be better. So what if other MMO’s use the “kill boss, get random loot” model? GW2 shouldn’t be prohibited to adapt it just because other MMOs use the system. (I’m just pointing out the failure of that argument).

Also, I didn’t really play much of GW1 so I don’t have enough knowledge to respond to your suggestion. If it is indeed a better system then ArenaNet should implement it.

Anyway, I don’t wanna argue anymore. Loot system discussions are mostly a matter of personal preference instead of actual objective value. It’s a reward system, people will have differing opinions. You have some valid points.

Now back to the thread.

Oh, I know why they let you continue if you wipe. It makes it way easy for them to balance. At launch, someone from Arenanet admitted their team has not completed the hardest of dungeons yet, that they were too hard, and they’d let players figure it out themselves.

So what does that mean? They provided arbitrary HP and defense to monsters to generate a false sense of ‘difficulty’. If the dungeon is too hard, players can continuously ram their heads at it because of the waypoint.

You see, if there was a kick feature when you wipe, then they’d actually have to put effort into balancing the dungeon. Make it too hard, and people will never progress beyond the wipe out. Yes that’s right, they’d actually have to put in effort to make these rubbish areas called dungeons.

That said, anyone wanna come spend 20 minutes hitting Wollam the Plunderer with me?