Guild Wars 2

Usually when I play with PUGs found via dungeon finder, people have 6-12k AP, but that doesn’t matter. I really never have seen a group looking specifically for ‘only 5k+ AP’, it’s stupid. Is this a US-server thing? Be cause in Europe, I almost never see this…

I must admit though that IF I have a 0-1k AP guy in my party I get a tiny bit nervous, be cause this indicates a very new player. Though I am up to help him, no problem here.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Is this a US-server thing? Be cause in Europe, I almost never see this…

I see this everyday in Europe. I even see “9k+ AP”…

AP means nothing past 1500-2k. Most people understand the basics of their class by then

xsquared.1926:

AP means nothing past 1500-2k. Most people understand the basics of their class by then

Or they don’t, but then they also won’t at 15k.

Ive always found the most basic requirements, like “experienced pls”. Lead to decent pugs. Sometimes you get odd builds and leechers. But often they arent bad enough to warrant a kick. It is a pug after all.

If I join a pug i usually join the no requirement groups because its more interesting carrying a group through a dungeon than pugging for efficiency (I can do that with my guild or my friends so pugging is something I do for entertainment).

spoj.9672:

Ive always found the most basic requirements, like “experienced pls”. Lead to decent pugs. Sometimes you get odd builds and leechers. But often they arent bad enough to warrant a kick. It is a pug after all.

Well, make sure to specify “experienced” and not “exp” which is understood by most noobs as “explorable”.

I do. It doesnt take a genius to realise people are going to misunderstand that. Especially when they dont even understand the word selling most of the time.

Even if a quite poor indicative of anything, an 1k-1.5k AP mark might be reasonable if you’re trying to avoid unexperienced and/or undergeared players. You could still be missing a great player and you can still get clueless people far beyond this mark, but it probably delivers good results statistically speaking
The really stupid thing is how this required AP mark has been increasing over time (reaching those ridiculous 5k values) when it indicates nothing but some kind of devotion to dailies/monthlies and LS achievements.

When I make parties I don’t care about their AP, I will ask if people are experienced with said run if I see a lower AP. If they don’t respond and then later in the dungeon they obviously have no idea what is going on. I let them know that I am kicking them because they didn’t say they were new, or had no idea what was going on.

can someone tell me how you get 5k+ AP? My Ele has zerker trinkets with rubies, zerker staff, and every piece of armor also has AP on it and Im only at 3135. Maybe its because Im using 20/0/0/30/20?

AP = achievement points. The attack power stat in the hero panel is meaningless so there would be no reason to use that as a requirement.

spoj.9672:

Ive always found the most basic requirements, like “experienced pls”. Lead to decent pugs. Sometimes you get odd builds and leechers. But often they arent bad enough to warrant a kick. It is a pug after all.

If I join a pug i usually join the no requirement groups because its more interesting carrying a group through a dungeon than pugging for efficiency (I can do that with my guild or my friends so pugging is something I do for entertainment).

In my experience, “experienced please” or “experienced only” normally results in axe 5 warriors and staff guards.

I’m not really sure how to get actual experienced players outside of doing a trait check, but I’m so beyond caring about the quality of pugs anymore I’ll just join any old group and get over it. Priority goes to groups with names I recognise, if they’re decent it normally makes the run a lot more tolerable.

spoj.9672:

AP = achievement points. The attack power stat in the hero panel is meaningless so there would be no reason to use that as a requirement.

well that seems like an even dumber requirement. I have close to 3k and never even stepped foot inside a dungeon. APs dont mean anything.

Dabrixmgp.4758:

spoj.9672:

AP = achievement points. The attack power stat in the hero panel is meaningless so there would be no reason to use that as a requirement.

well that seems like an even dumber requirement. I have close to 3k and never even stepped foot inside a dungeon. APs dont mean anything.

Exactly. Its a stupid requirement.

I think folks are getting caught up on AP not being 100% effective at vetting PuGs. The thing is, nothing will tell you with 100% certainty who is good, and who isn’t. You will have 500AP studs and 12,000 AP duds.

However, as someone said, it’s the best first glance assessment you can make. If you care to build a good party, you should be asking for trait spread and general understanding of the encounter. You should be gear checking to make sure they are running appropriate gear.

Now, if you don’t want to do all of that for some reason, yet you still want to gate the group, AP is the default fallback. Why? Because it’s easily visible and for nearly all intents and purposes tell you roughly how much content the player has completed. They may never have touched dungeons before but that’s the gamble you take in using AP. You use it on the hope that out of all the content they’ve done to earn X,000 AP, somewhere along the line….they learned how to play the game.

Age doesn’t tell you about a person’s life experience. There are children who have experienced more hardship than some elderly. Generally though, you can assume that a 70 year old will have more experience with handling stress than a 10 year old. Not always true, but it’s the assumption to make if you intend to judge someone on just their age.

Same to be said of AP. If you want a quick gauge, then you can think that someone with 10,000k AP has had more time and chances to learn how to play the game and their class than someone with 500. If you want to know more, then demand more of your team.

Saint.5647:

I think folks are getting caught up on AP not being 100% effective at vetting PuGs. The thing is, nothing will tell you with 100% certainty who is good, and who isn’t. You will have 500AP studs and 12,000 AP duds.

However, as someone said, it’s the best first glance assessment you can make. If you care to build a good party, you should be asking for trait spread and general understanding of the encounter. You should be gear checking to make sure they are running appropriate gear.

Now, if you don’t want to do all of that for some reason, yet you still want to gate the group, AP is the default fallback. Why? Because it’s easily visible and for nearly all intents and purposes tell you roughly how much content the player has completed. They may never have touched dungeons before but that’s the gamble you take in using AP. You use it on the hope that out of all the content they’ve done to earn X,000 AP, somewhere along the line….they learned how to play the game.

Age doesn’t tell you about a person’s life experience. There are children who have experienced more hardship than some elderly. Generally though, you can assume that a 70 year old will have more experience with handling stress than a 10 year old. Not always true, but it’s the assumption to make if you intend to judge someone on just their age.

Same to be said of AP. If you want a quick gauge, then you can think that someone with 10,000k AP has had more time and chances to learn how to play the game and their class than someone with 500. If you want to know more, then demand more of your team.

Or you could use the absolute best pug filter and force them to ping their gear. I rarely end up with bad pugs if everyone pings correct gear.

Saint, Clumsy, we don’t pug anymore. I haven’t had to in about a month. So this is all academic. Just saying.

Anierna.6918:

Saint, Clumsy, we don’t pug anymore. I haven’t had to in about a month. So this is all academic. Just saying.

This is true. I feel bad for people that have to wade through the sewer that is the pug community.

I never kick people from daily dungeons runs because they’re so easy and everyone deserves to play, and everyone starts somewhere. I just expect people with less than about 9k AP to suck and keep any eye on them if they need some direction of where to stand (although I really try not to offer advice unless they ask, or are an utter failure; that can be annoying.)

I don’t understand how you could possibly play your character to a level of decent understanding and not have at least several thousand AP.

Edit: Also keep in mind the more APs someone has the more likely they are to have done tPvP, where you have to understand all the nuances of your class.

@clumsy: yes, gear (and trait-spread) check is the most effective, but as I mentioned earlier: you will get people joining without pinging. after asking multiple times they either say nothing or ping clerics and say ‘but I heal!’. then the next one joins who doesn’t ping gear and the fun starts over. forming a group can take up to five minutes, by then the few legitimate people often already have left and you can just give up.

as many bad things could be/have been said about the CoFp1 farmers before the token nerf, nearly everyone joining pinged their gear immediately and knew how to do the path (as easy as it is). I had a lot more fun running with those people than the constant fails in other pugs (I especially like the ‘speedrun, experienced only’ runs where nobody knows how the gate controller part works).

AP is a bad metric, but it’s the only reliably obtainable one we have. after all my friends left GW2, I’ve tried joining a dungeon guild. I had to sign up on a website for runs, couldn’t be offline more than a week (sometimes I just need a timeout from the game) and the guild leader constantly criticized everyone (whilst still clicking every single skill with his mouse) but enforced ranging easy bosses (svanigandr for example).

so again, I pug for dungeons and I wish there was a way to get people of similar mindset and skill as mine. I don’t like dragging people down who could just solo the dungeon, but neither do I want to play with bearbows and staffguards who can’t shut up how OP their healing is.
a simple inspect would at least let me see people with a similar mindset, since they’ll be focused on damage. they might still need to learn, but at least it would show they’re willing.

Oranisagu.3706:

AP is a bad metric, but it’s the only reliably obtainable one we have. after all my friends left GW2, I’ve tried joining a dungeon guild. I had to sign up on a website for runs, couldn’t be offline more than a week (sometimes I just need a timeout from the game) and the guild leader constantly criticized everyone (whilst still clicking every single skill with his mouse) but enforced ranging easy bosses (svanigandr for example).

offtopic, but lollll. worst dungeon guild evar? (no offense to you, Oranisagu!)

I never ask for pinging gear, never check AP and still most runs run pretty smooth. On the other hand, most of the runs are at least 1-3 guilies.

maxinion.8396:

offtopic, but lollll. worst dungeon guild evar? (no offense to you, Oranisagu!)

why do you think I needed a break in the first place? ;-) but no, it would be unfair, the guild was a pretty nice place apart from the mentioned stuff, and most people were fun. I just couldn’t fit inside those strict rules and was rather glad when they kicked me, so I didn’t have to decide myself whether to leave or not (because the runs were rather smooth, and very consistent. I’ve had way better pug runs in CoE and HotW for example, but also a lot worse).

to get back on topic:
I really dislike the preconception that anyone with some AP is a LS farmer.

I’m somewhere around 12k because I like most areas of the game and have tried everything at least a few times to see if it could fit me despite my expectations. I PV-Peed my pants a bit in hotjoin and tournies and got to like 19 or so ranks – it’s nothing, I’m still a complete pvp noob, but it did award a few AP as well. same with wvw. or hobby dungeon explorer. and so on. and all this without a strong focus on LS.

just as PUG doesn’t mean complete imbecile (check out https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Define-PUG/ for namecalling of all sorts), a lot of AP doesn’t mean anything good or bad either. saying pugs/high-ap players are stupid is about as smart as calling people stupid based on their skin color.

AP only say how much someone played the game – but chances are, someone who’s been playing for a long time, at least has some experience, might know synergies between classes and hopefully has dungeon experience.
there are no guarantees but I completely understand why people are looking for randoms with at least some lower bound of AP to get increased chances at a smooth run.

in conclusion: well, no idea, be nice to each other despite your differences? =)

Nice hippie post. Makes sense. Accounts are born with a said AP number and people change their skin color the more they do stuff.
Advanced tactics:
“Have you read the lfg?”
Silence/“lol zerg suxx”/etc.=kick

There is the smallest correlation between APs and experience. There is nothing of the sort between AP and skill.

Of course, I’m cautious of “Player A” with 749 APs, but that doesn’t mean “Player B” with 17,487 is any good.

I would take “Player C” with 7,573 APs over “Player B” at first glance knowing nothing else about either of them, because it stands a good chance that “Player B” has spent most of his time farming dailies and LS content than in Dungeons.

The best way to judge a player’s ability is request a gear link. While still not perfect, if someone links Full Ascended Zerk/Assassin with correct Runes & Sigils, they at least deserve an attempt.

The kick function is there – if someone turns out to be a horrible player you kick them. Initial requirements should be nigh on none existant other than asking for “experienced” and “zerker/dps”.

robertul.3679:

Nice hippie post. Makes sense. Accounts are born with a said AP number and people change their skin color the more they do stuff.
Advanced tactics:
“Have you read the lfg?”
Silence/“lol zerg suxx”/etc.=kick

you still get people who lie about their gear, some even link zerk stuff with chatcodes but actually wear PVT gear etc. at least they can’t lie about AP.
but as I said earlier, yes, gearcheck is still the best way to get a better idea of how they’ll play – it’s just very timeconsuming.

sorry for offending you when I said having prejudices is really stupid (no matter if its about something changing or constant), you’re of course free to have your preconceptions without any supporting facts, just as I will have my opinion about people who voice them.

Some of the most horrific idiots I’ve met in dungeons had sky high amount of APs. One is a thief who is in the top 20 in the AP leaderboards and thinks a guardian should be his cleric rez nanny because he couldn’t survive more than one second of molten duo… while ranging.

I think we can just sum up our collective experience with pugs and AP requirements as:
very low (less than 2k AP) almost always bad; but high doesn’t necessarily guarantee a good player. (“Almost always” and “doesn’t necessarily” used to account for outliers.)

tl;dr: most pugs will fall in between 2k-10k AP, and are still going to be pretty much a gamble.

Judging by AP is total crap. My usual dungeon group just recently started taking a new friend with us to help her earn gold and get started, she’s currently at 1,200 AP and is very skilled and quick to learn and makes the runs a total breeze. Pinging gear and build may be a better indicator but you have to take into account individual ability. Unfortunately no meter for that.

How can this even be up for discussion? The average 5k AP player is probably more skilled than the average 1k AP player. And dont give me one of those “but I’ve met that one guy who…” answers. Its all just statistics and probability when you’re running dungeons every say of the week and want those runs to be efficient. Since there is no alternative I always ask for full zerlk 5k+.

Veydar.5017:

How can this even be up for discussion? The average 5k AP player is probably more skilled than the average 1k AP player. And dont give me one of those “but I’ve met that one guy who…” answers. Its all just statistics and probability when you’re running dungeons every say of the week and want those runs to be efficient. Since there is no alternative I always ask for full zerlk 5k+.

5k ap merely means they’ve been playing gw2 longer. I could gather 5k+ AP with a necro and start running dungeons on my power-leveled 80 warrior with the twink gear, and i’d be complete kitten in the dungeon, and 9 times out of 10, you’d have no problems at all. But if I’m playing a properly fitted ele with only 1k or less AP, you’d kick me from the party even if i’d ran a given dungeon 2 thousand times and could solo it in my sleep.
In fact, it’d be interesting to see just how many AP can be accumulated without actually doing any skill intensive combat. Huh, you can gain roughly 4.2-4.5 thousand AP. 2-3k AP is a far more reasonable request.

Aidan Savage.2078:

In fact, it’d be interesting to see just how many AP can be accumulated without actually doing any skill intensive combat.

around 21484

Aidan Savage.2078:

In fact, it’d be interesting to see just how many AP can be accumulated without actually doing any skill intensive combat.

Does being carried in content like fotm 49/50 count as not having done any skill intensive combat? Because I’ve seen such specimen with 19K AP. Expecting the guardian to be full cleric and dedicated to getting him back from the downed state. And oh lord, did he knew the meaning of downed state.

Anierna.6918:

Saint, Clumsy, we don’t pug anymore. I haven’t had to in about a month. So this is all academic. Just saying.

Yes but I do enjoy a fine whine here and there.

Currently there is no way to determine a good player via LFG. Thats why people have to make these requirements inorder to TRY to distinguish and find a player they want.

AP – usually high AP means that a person has spent quite an amount of time in the game and SHOULD (doesn’t mean HAS) have some idea about the dung, the way it’s supposed to be played etc.

Experienced – hardly a wall that stops those inexperienced from joining. Lots of people wanting to get carried there and looking for those experienced groups just to do the dung quicklyu while doing nothing.

Lv80 – yeah….and then lv 62 joins for CoE…

Gearcheck – this actually can show that some1 has that gear and most of the time uses it. I haven’t seen any situation when some1 was showing Zerk gear and using like Cleric – however, I do not exclude these situations. Still gearcheck can fulfill it’s purpose which is…. finding a player with the gear we want, but not necessarily being a good player.

From my experience demanding both like 3-5k AP and gearcheck allows you to get a decent Speedrunning group via LFG. If you don’t want to Speedrun just go with either – it’s pugging so risk is included

Also I find that people with 15k+ AP usually suck hard in the Dungeons and Fractals when finding them on LFG (not all the time of course). Why? wel these are mostly AP farmers. A player that has being playing from headstart, been doing Living Story, many dungeons and fractals has around 12-13k AP by now – on average. People with 15+k AP have been mostly farming Ap’s and that well…never teaches you how to kill Lupi or Fire Shaman

Nikaido.3457:

Aidan Savage.2078:

In fact, it’d be interesting to see just how many AP can be accumulated without actually doing any skill intensive combat.

Does being carried in content like fotm 49/50 count as not having done any skill intensive combat? Because I’ve seen such specimen with 19K AP. Expecting the guardian to be full cleric and dedicated to getting him back from the downed state. And oh lord, did he knew the meaning of downed state.

The handful of times I’ve done dungeons with friends, I’m usually the one that’s downed/dead the most. The whole aggro system just goes awol when it wants and i’m usually running circles avoiding death with my ele while my party tries to get the mobs’ attention back xD God I miss the aggro management in GW1…. That being said, I’m not dying so much because I’m a bad player (just a bad dodger probably) so much as it is my class simply gets squashed so easily. <1k ap or 50k+ ap, that fact wont change.
Now, I have maybe…. 3 AP from pvp related activities, but that hardly has any relevance in a dungeon where you arent facing other players, but mobs who for all intents are static. They do the same actions over and over, and never change skills between one encounter and the next. So running the dungeon repeatedly and getting good at it means someone with as little as 500 AP can run the dungeon BETTER than someone with 2-20 times the AP. Which is what makes AP as a metric for skill so inaccurate.

Edit for post above mine: I’d like to try joining those groups that say “experienced only” because it’s a good way to learn the RIGHT way of doing the dungeon, but a lot of those groups are merely after fast loot, not necessarily teaching one or two “fresh” players how to run the dungeon.
Plus what’s with the hate about story mode? The fact it doesnt give the dungeon tokens? kitten that, maybe someone’s trying to run it for the achievements. It took me 2 weeks to successfully run the CM dungeon. Four times the group was a bunch of blithering idiots that wiped at the golem until their armor broke (I stopped trying to fight the boss after 1/2 my armor was damaged). Twice a group made it outside the basement just to get kitten d by the hounds. Anyways…
TL;DR- Sometimes it’s better to not be entirely stringent about your “leet” requirements for dungeons so others can learn how to do them. Doesnt have to be the “110% efficient 3 minute speedrun” method, but rather the “if you arent a complete moron” way of doing the dungeon.

I think both of you agree with each other but somehow misunderstood mutually.

Just make your own LFG. U can´t find good peope while looking for Zerk only/Melee only/Xk Afk points only.

Most of the people using the LFG tool can´t even read. How can they manage to play their class?
Every1 welcome (usually not fast, but friendly/funny players), or guild/FL are the best ways to find a group.

Aidan Savage.2078:

Edit for post above mine: I’d like to try joining those groups that say “experienced only” because it’s a good way to learn the RIGHT way of doing the dungeon, but a lot of those groups are merely after fast loot, not necessarily teaching one or two “fresh” players how to run the dungeon.

Dungeon mentor guild. Just saying.

Enaretos.8079:

Aidan Savage.2078:

Edit for post above mine: I’d like to try joining those groups that say “experienced only” because it’s a good way to learn the RIGHT way of doing the dungeon, but a lot of those groups are merely after fast loot, not necessarily teaching one or two “fresh” players how to run the dungeon.

Dungeon mentor guild. Just saying.

Joining a purpose-oriented guild is usually pointless. Too many ways they go bad. With the LFG system, I can actually find people doing the dungeon at the time I want with no risk of the run not getting started because someone has to leave.

What he meant was our initiative, the dungeon mentor guild. We are teaching people of all skill levels how to do dungeons in many different ways. An lfg group that says “experienced” is not a teaching run. They want experienced players, not students, which is why the dungeon mentor guild is beneficial.

Plus, those “experienced run” groups are usually home to multiple filthy casuals with bad builds wearing bad gear. Us Meta Mentors in [Noob] really do play the meta, and almost assuredly have more experience with speedruns than the “experienced only” pugs.

AP doesnt mean a kitten thing and also , AP grinds in this game is one of the most boring /easiest ones i ever seen, if people really require 5k AP i laugh at them, as if it makes u better (not)

Kinda reminds me on WoW with those kitten using gearscore meters to pug, i usually lied about mine and saw them dying on very stupid ways ( kitten i have so high gearscore, but it didnt made me move out of kitten )

Lol about the CM story post. CM is my favorite dungeon and I do a full clear (all 4 paths) daily, and I’ve never seen so many wannabe ‘pros’ get wrecked so maliciously. Lot’s of APs…wrecked. Legendaries/‘high-end’ gear…wrecked. Cracks me up sometimes to see people get their egos shredded.

Aside from all that, I’ve found that APs are only a good indicator of peoples awareness of game mechanics, is. dodging/reflects/etc. Tbh though, unless I recognize someone, I usually PREFER lower AP scores (500 to maybe 2/3k) as these are most often the players that have a firm grasp of the game but are still willing to learn and/or take advice. I’ve ran dungeons enough that I can explain encounters in a quick and concise way that it’s not gonna drag the clear time down anymore than posting silly LFGs often does. Sometimes I have to laugh at the requirements of some of the ‘speed clear’ groups knowing they won’t even have a party ready for sometimes 5-10 mins. Lol…how ‘efficient’ O.o

Me: This boss is anti-melee so use range here. (High AP/lvl 80 warrior (who already knows better uses melee and gets wrecked in two seconds….)

Me: Hey Guardian, can you run some melee and pull these adds together please? (High AP/lvl 80 guardian running in circles with scepter/shield says “I’m no use if I’m dead”

Me:OK stay here plz and I’ll pull the next group (lvl 80 warrior runs past me and aggroes an entire room and is dropped almost immediately)

The point is, I might have to explain something to an inexperienced group, when they should be using melee or range, when they should have reflects/blinds/etc on there bar vs. their standard signets they’ve been running, BUT they usually listen and act accordingly and that has been the core of many smooth, quick runs that let inexperienced players learn the ‘proper’ way w/o consulting a guide.

“Lfg Experienced only” sometimes translates into, “I ran it 3 times just after launch”
“Lfg X,000 AP only” translates to “I gather daily and have killed plenty of ambients”
“Lfg zerk only” sometimes means “I have a zerker amulet to go with my PVT gear”

Everything is vain! If you want to run with good players, sometimes it can help to teach players how to be good.

This is all based on if you are actually talking about CM and not some imaginary dungeon.

Tman.6349:

Me: This boss is anti-melee so use range here.

Don’t lie to your party. Not cool.

Tman.6349:

I might have to explain something to an inexperienced group when they should be using melee

Always

Tman.6349:

I might have to explain something to an inexperienced group when they should be using range

Never

RemiRome.8495:

This is all based on if you are actually talking about CM and not some imaginary dungeon.

Tman.6349:

Me: This boss is anti-melee so use range here.

Don’t lie to your party. Not cool.

Tman.6349:

I might have to explain something to an inexperienced group when they should be using melee

Always

Tman.6349:

I might have to explain something to an inexperienced group when they should be using range

Never

‘Spider Room (forget boss name) in TA story, Aether path in Ta, boss in underwater fractal, end boss in Grawl fractal, “mouth guy” from Arah story, several world bosses, plenty of other anti-melee examples where ranging is much more effective or practical…but I’m sure these are all just part of my imagination too…

I can look up the names in a bit if you need ‘photo’ evidence of the imaginary creatures that punish using melee and, although this is specifically about dungeons, some of my examples aren’t as the whole thing was a reference to helping players and not a debate about ‘range vs. melee’ as you got out of the entire post

Lol, we meleed that story mode champ in a friggin PUG. And what do people range in TA Aether?

He means kiting the ooze in TA Aether?

• Spider room, Marolna: Melee
• Jelleyfish Beast: Range = lazy mode
• Fire shaman in Volcanic Fractal: Melee
• Mouth guy from Arah Story: Melee

There was one time when I do TA Fwd with my social guildies, our DPS was kinda abysmal to the point that we couldn’t melt the boss fast enough and I had to kite the Vet Oaks around with my staff. But the rest of the party melee the boss.

The only one I don’t melee all the time out of those is the Legendary Imbued Shaman and that’s only because they ruined the zoom and I’m not running fractals often enough to get used to it.

Mouth guy is fun to melee and not falling asleep is a massive bonus in my eyes.

I think its a fantastic way of weeding out the noobs. For serious dungeon runs like arah where scrubs get you killed its the only way to stop noobs from kittening up your run and wasting your time. You write “EXP” and kitten but that means nothing, kids with 3000K achievement points come in and 10 secs before the lupi fight ask “what weapon should I use I’ve never melee’d him before”…………….jesus christ, achievement points mean you have PLAYED THE GAME, and there is a better chance of you knowing how to go through content than not. Its not a set in stone rule, but generally the more achievement points the better/more experience the player is at PVE CONTENT