Guild Wars 2

From what I experienced doing dungeons, there are 2 overused tactics (not counting terrain exploits) :

1. LoS or Stacking. Using walls/obstacle to group up enemies. This greatly benefit several melee weapon set which gives high cleaving damage.

2. Reflect projectiles. Currently, some of the boss big damage is in the form of projectiles. While it can also be dodged, reflection is preferable as it gives gives extra, if not big, dps.

These two tactics create preference of certain professions when tackling dungeons. Also, few encounters are losing their flavor as it is now a norm, you are expected to do it.

Is this an issue? Thoughts?

It’s not an issue.
/thread

Well, I’m not the most experienced in the dungeon running circles, but I don’t feel like reflection is a big deal, it’s a reasonably limited skill that requires some timing. Some enemies though really destroy themselves under the reflection though, so I could see the damage being capped at my max crit damage, say.

Stacking on the other hand, I find to be a real issue. Last two fractals runs that have yielded the dredge fractal have all been “ok, stack here so we can pull the minions but not the boss.” I don’t like it, personally.

I am confused how this could be an issue. People are doing smart things in those regards, and none of it is any kind of bug.

Forcing your enemies (especially when there are greater numbers than your own) to funnel into specific locations to take advantage of terrain and their grouping is a pretty intelligent and classic move both in and out of game. The suggestion that it is an issue is fairly silly.

As for reflection, I don’t see why it would be an issue, but I suppose I also don’t care as much as someone suggesting the stacking could be an issue…

I enjoy the fact that my enemies stupidly powerful attacks can be turned against him.

It used to make me very happy in the dredge fractal.

Oolune.4357:

I am confused how this could be an issue. People are doing smart things in those regards, and none of it is any kind of bug.

Forcing your enemies (especially when there are greater numbers than your own) to funnel into specific locations to take advantage of terrain and their grouping is a pretty intelligent and classic move both in and out of game. The suggestion that it is an issue is fairly silly.

As for reflection, I don’t see why it would be an issue, but I suppose I also don’t care as much as someone suggesting the stacking could be an issue…

My viewpoint is, it trivialized the content. Say, in case of stacking, it takes out certain challenge when facing an encounter to a tank-and-spank. Some example:

- Dredge Fractal boss, you don’t need to face the mob and boss at the same time.
- Fyonna, TA, no more eggs hatching

It makes me think, “What is the point of having two different dungeon when we are doing the same thing on both?”

Sure it is the smart way, but when it is done too many times/everywhere, it just makes me bored(which is not the point of playing a game).

phandaria.4891:

Oolune.4357:

I am confused how this could be an issue. People are doing smart things in those regards, and none of it is any kind of bug.

Forcing your enemies (especially when there are greater numbers than your own) to funnel into specific locations to take advantage of terrain and their grouping is a pretty intelligent and classic move both in and out of game. The suggestion that it is an issue is fairly silly.

As for reflection, I don’t see why it would be an issue, but I suppose I also don’t care as much as someone suggesting the stacking could be an issue…

My viewpoint is, it trivialized the content. Say, in case of stacking it makes me think, “What is the point of having two different dungeon when we are doing the same thing on both?”

Sure it is the smart way, but when it is done too many times/everywhere, it just makes me bored(which is not the point of playing a game).

Since the fundamental objective in most encounters is the same – reduce hp to zero, you will get bored eventually even if you do not use these as you say… overused tactics.

mosspit.8936:

Since the fundamental objective in most encounters is the same – reduce hp to zero, you will get bored eventually even if you do not use these as you say… overused tactics.

I think you’re right. In the spirit of the OP; Using attacks, items, abilities to take a mob’s HP to zero is such an overused tactic. I vote for dance parties instead.

mosspit.8936:

Since the fundamental objective in most encounters is the same – reduce hp to zero, you will get bored eventually even if you do not use these as you say… overused tactics.

Edited my post, I hope you get my point. Yes, the objective is the same, kill enemies. But the dev spend their times to make each encounter different. This LoS tactic basically is trying to ignore that flavor and make it to a tank-and-spank.

While I won’t be quite as sarcastic as some others despite my obvious disagreement with you, I have to say that your argument is a bit off. What makes the encounters different? If you can clear the adds in the same way, and then the encounter is suddenly exactly the same and thus repetitive and boring, then how were they different to being with? You’re pretty much saying that they’re the same fight regardless.

LoS is a pretty common strategy in every game. It’s natural that you would stand behind walls to force ranged enemies to come towards you or mitigate their damage while killing melee mobs in instances where the AI won’t cause them to walk towards you (i.e. not in this game).

That’s like saying kiting is overused.

So you edited your post to give 2 examples namely Dredge and Fyonna? Sure why not.

Dredge – The boss resets after a certain point. You are lumping LoS with that fact.
Fyonna – Killing her in the room is viable too. Just be more careful. A quick question: have you been in a Fyonna encounter where someone messed up and spawned 5+ recluse and stones?

You do any dungeons enough times, you get to see alot of tactics. You do dungeons more times you will see these tactics being done mutiple times. That is my point – Unless dungeons have self evolving mechanisms, tedium and boredom is inevitable.

Edit: Come to think of it, not even sure Fyonna is a LoS issue…. Maybe cautious play with some reflection going on in her sylvari form. shrugs

Reflect Projectiles, especially the Guardian’s Wall of Reflection, can be a lifesaver when killing the Spider Queen in AC. Not so much the Queen herself, but from the little spiders who gang up and rapidly wipe a party.

Group member 1 you stand HERE, 2 HERE, and 3 HERE etc. Don’t you even dare MOVE! If the mobs start to bunch up, WIPE! WE’RE RESETING AND STARTING OVER! Is that what you’re going for? I just dont understand.

Guardians can both pull enemies (Greatsword skill) and reflect Projectiles (Wall skills).

I don’t see why these shouldn’t be used when the encounters are designed in a way that they are advantageous to use?

LoS abuse is ok, its a tactic that everyone can use, reflections is not.

What reflection does, is make some encounters very hard or trivial depending on the amount of projectile reflection the group has, which is mainly available to 2 classes – guardian and mesmer. Many of the complaints about the new trinity is because of this.

Doing high level shaman fractal without reflection is a nightmare compared to having two guards will walls, so the whole “play as you want with who you want” physophy goes to hell. Just take a look at gw2lfg .

Having hard counters is ok in a classic trinity mmo. Gw2 tries to move away from that, so it’s only natural that either:

-encounters are tuned to reduce the effectiveness of such skills
or
-more classes have access to hard counters

It’s the same problem with thief and stealth in dredge fractal. Many high level players are rolling a lv10 alt thief with just shadow refuge unlocked to deal with that part, and then relog with their main. I DO NOT think this is how its intended to work.

So from overused tactics to class balance. Ok….

LoS is ok. What’s not ok is cleave dmg : 100% is too much – at least for pve.

Projectile reflection has always been overpowered to me and it becomes somewhat essential with more difficult content. That favors Mesmers and Guardians a lot.

Aegis.9724:

It’s the same problem with thief and stealth in dredge fractal. Many high level players are rolling a lv10 alt thief with just shadow refuge unlocked to deal with that part, and then relog with their main. I DO NOT think this is how its intended to work.

Thinking of using that as an excuse to level my Thief as my next alt tbh. Stealth is just so situationally useful over the other options I have left to level, Elementalist and Necromancer.

mosspit.8936:

So you edited your post to give 2 examples namely Dredge and Fyonna? Sure why not.

Dredge – The boss resets after a certain point. You are lumping LoS with that fact.
Fyonna – Killing her in the room is viable too. Just be more careful. A quick question: have you been in a Fyonna encounter where someone messed up and spawned 5+ recluse and stones?

When we did it for the first time.
I think that fight along with other similar ones are broken as designed. You have a game where movement and dodging are important to survival but then they put in encounters where doing either of those things will greating increased your chance of dying.

Regarding OP’s point 2 I wonder when GW2’ version of Duncan the Black will show up.

Reflection? My party loves me for my reflection… Other classes aside from mesmers and guardians have access to it but not for the group… warriors with shields… Engi’s with shields… And I think an aura that ele’s get reflects as well… So now at least half of the classes have some reflection… Mesmers get it on feedback which is a relatively short duration…. Not sure how long guardians wall of relfection lasts…The stacking and LOS issue is just smart play… As long as dungeons are impossible to complete as the devs intended people will use these tactics… Unless they are actually exploiting then its not really an issue… There are some dungeon bosses though where that tactic is not even close to necessary (HOTW P1) I would get pugs that are hell bent on hiding in the hole in the wall or standing on the rafter and they get killed faster than if they were to just fight the boss and focus on a specific totem that he gets power from…

jportell.2197:

Reflection? My party loves me for my reflection… Other classes aside from mesmers and guardians have access to it but not for the group… warriors with shields… Engi’s with shields… And I think an aura that ele’s get reflects as well… So now at least half of the classes have some reflection… Mesmers get it on feedback which is a relatively short duration…. Not sure how long guardians wall of relfection lasts…The stacking and LOS issue is just smart play… As long as dungeons are impossible to complete as the devs intended people will use these tactics… Unless they are actually exploiting then its not really an issue… There are some dungeon bosses though where that tactic is not even close to necessary (HOTW P1) I would get pugs that are hell bent on hiding in the hole in the wall or standing on the rafter and they get killed faster than if they were to just fight the boss and focus on a specific totem that he gets power from…

Staff 3 on earth will reflect, that can be shared with the whole party with the right trait.
Focus 4 on air will destroy rather than reflect.

Axe 5 for ranger will also reflect although that might actually be a bug.

Thief’s dagger storm also reflects.
Smoke Screen will also block projectiles or should …

Khisanth.2948:

jportell.2197:

Reflection? My party loves me for my reflection… Other classes aside from mesmers and guardians have access to it but not for the group… warriors with shields… Engi’s with shields… And I think an aura that ele’s get reflects as well… So now at least half of the classes have some reflection… Mesmers get it on feedback which is a relatively short duration…. Not sure how long guardians wall of relfection lasts…The stacking and LOS issue is just smart play… As long as dungeons are impossible to complete as the devs intended people will use these tactics… Unless they are actually exploiting then its not really an issue… There are some dungeon bosses though where that tactic is not even close to necessary (HOTW P1) I would get pugs that are hell bent on hiding in the hole in the wall or standing on the rafter and they get killed faster than if they were to just fight the boss and focus on a specific totem that he gets power from…

Staff 3 on earth will reflect, that can be shared with the whole party with the right trait.
Focus 4 on air will destroy rather than reflect.

Axe 5 for ranger will also reflect although that might actually be a bug.

Thief’s dagger storm also reflects.
Smoke Screen will also block projectiles or should …

So that’s almost all classes that have access to it… So this isn’t a cheese method of getting through dungeons… It’s a good tactic on dealing with enemies/bosses that use projectiles… I think reflects are an amazing thing to have then.

Lets step back a bit and try to keep our “ratings” of tactics out of this.

I’d much rather debate with OP about what is and isn’t trivialized by LoS and relfects.

LoS allows you to stack otherwise spread out mobs into a smaller ball of foes for which you can easily AoE for maximum effect. Note that the AoE limit of 5 still applies. Saying that LoS trivializes combat is in fact valid when combined with other combos such as WWWGG face tanking. Saying that LoS in general trivializes combat without face tanking is not. How is an AoE damage based character with a 100 radius ranged AoE supposed to use thier “weak” AoE to full advantage? Aggro control, thats how. Simply put in GW2 there is NO way to clump mobs like in GW1 by running away in a flat plane ect other than to use LoS or Temportal Curtain (Edit and Binding Blade). There are MANY instances where you CANT LoS mobs and have to just be careful – these mobs at the bane of small AoE classes such as engineers and dagger eles.

(I support the use of LoS for aggro control as GW2 has no other current methods to stack certain mobs, besides temporal curtain)

Tank-Spank, also known as group face tanking is where you get 2 guardians with certain skills and at least 1 warrior with certain skills and stationary melee mobs (preferably clumped mobs). This is a very viable strategy but is indeed overused – but this is where guardians and warriors really shine. What is trivialized by Tank-Spank are clumped mobs who do not move out of pbAoE. Simply put – if ANET didn’t want use to pbAoE they would do the pbAoE nerf that they did in GW1 (2 packets of the same skill hitting the same monster causes the monster to run away). The main issue you have against Tank-Spank is that monsters DON’T avoid AoE like they did in GW1 (but GW1 AoE was horribly over powered at times). Tank-Spank is VERY bad versus high damage AoE (Giant Lip) and is ineffective if monsters move around alot. I see your point on this and admit one day ANET may do the same AoE smart mobs that GW1 has.

Reflects, a tactic available to thiefs, mesmers, and guardians is a way to introduce 1:1 damage mitigation and output in 1 skill. Yes I understand it is powerful – but it only works on ranged skills. The fact that it does 1:1 damage with the higher level monsters doing 10k damage per shot is in fact an issue. I like the damage mitigation more than the output actually and think that the damage reflected could be some fixed value based on the skill used and power vs the enemies toughness. Reflect can be changed to be more defensive, less offensive.

So all in all I aggree with 2/3 of your points, in that 1: Tank-Spank works well due to AI not running away from pbAoE (the question now is, SHOULD they) and 2: Reflects at 100% damage makes a dual skill – instead of a defensive skill (it should still do some damage)

Edit: Made to add binding blade and get rid of the funny happy face

One of the issues with repeatable content is that the most effective tactics quickly make their way around the player-base. Players are in many cases going to want to follow the path of least resistance. Why use inefficient tactic z when efficient tactic y gets the job done better, faster and with less risk of a wipe? If you’re running into these tactics in many pick up groups, it’s probably because they work.

Players who think there is an issue with this are free to come up with new tactics and then try to sell them to others. If you have a problem with the tactics, then it’s your problem, not the problem of people who are happy using them.

LoS and reflection are perfectly sound strategies. One is (at least in part) using the environment to your advantage, and the other is using skills as they’re designed. I do get what Phandaria is saying and can at least partially agree with the sentiment, but not in regards to the aforementioned strategies. I would probably consider content/mob-skipping to be more in line with “trivializing” content, tbh.

achensherd.2735:

LoS and reflection are perfectly sound strategies. One is (at least in part) using the environment to your advantage, and the other is using skills as they’re designed. I do get what Phandaria is saying and can at least partially agree with the sentiment, but not in regards to the aforementioned strategies. I would probably consider content/mob-skipping to be more in line with “trivializing” content, tbh.

I call them strategies when every class can do the same. When reflection is just for 2 classes, and melee is not for every class, this is not strategy, this is abuse of class advantage. Unbalance, exploiting the content

in fractals, there are mostly reflection wars …

>LoS or Stacking. Using walls/obstacle to group up enemies.
>2. Reflect projectiles.

those ofc are obvious exploits. Hope they someday repair horrible mob AI.

>people are doing smart things in those regards,
> and none of it is any kind of bug.

and how this is smart? kitten its ultra noob!!! not smart…
it would be smart to kill fotm dredge boss/minions at once – how it was designed to do but not using nap tricks…

As for guards wall of reflection devs will have hard times to balance this nub skill.
2 guards can for example end lupicus stage 2 in 10s. For now all the devs do is making some boses resistant to this skill, so the wall does not protect nor reflects (fractal OldTom for example). Imho this skill should have longer CD and max 3s duration not lame 12s… and ofc should work on all bosses and projectiles.

Reflections need to be buffed. If a boss can instagib me, it should mean that reflected attack should instagib him. Sounds fair.

haviz.1340:

Reflections need to be buffed. If a boss can instagib me, it should mean that reflected attack should instagib him. Sounds fair.

if boss 1 hit atuoattack instagib me it should mean that I should 1 autoattack instagib him. Sounds fair.

phandaria.4891:

From what I experienced reading the forums, there are 2 overused topics (not counting idiots) :

1. People that do 1 dungeon per week come here and whine about skipping or smart and legit tactics that makes a speed run possible.

2. The same people, when trying to farm a dungeons, whine because it takes too long and its very hard. Bring the nerf hammer!

These two topics are cluttering the forums, proving that smart players are getting harder and harder to find.

Is this an issue? Thoughts?

That’s how i read the OP.

Lavadiel.6231:

As for guards wall of reflection devs will have hard times to balance this nub skill.
2 guards can for example end lupicus stage 2 in 10s.

A good mesmer can do that in 2-3 seconds. But i guess you would consider him a noob…

Yes, pressing one button to deal 60-80k dmg makes him awesome.

But not kittening up that feedback DOES require an IQ above 50. Especially with the RNG on Lupus’ abilities.

You’re serious?

@haviz
So basically, a player that uses what the game offers him to kill a boss faster is somehow, by your judgement, less skilled then some other player that runs around him for 10 times longer?

I bet you travel around the country with a horse, because using a car is so stupid and mainstream.

Enemies (particularly AI) need serious buffs (in no particular order):
1) Enemies dodge out of Hundred Blades, AoE’s and similar stuff.
2) Enemies can move while attacking (especially melees).
3) Ranged keeps distance even when players “disappear” behind corner.
4) Projectile-based enemies move if unable to hit because of anti-projectile.
5) Projectile-based enemies move closer if player zig-zags.
6) Enemies are aware of each other. They avoid stacking but still move as a group (when players attempt to pull, go behind corner, etc).
7) Melees leap, snare, etc.
8) . . .

codpin.6542:

@haviz
So basically, a player that uses what the game offers him to kill a boss faster is somehow, by your judgement, less skilled then some other player that runs around him for 10 times longer?

I bet you travel around the country with a horse, because using a car is so stupid and mainstream.

His point probably is (and if it isn’t then it’s my point) that you shouldn’t feel good/awesome because you can drive 40 kph. However, going by foot at that speed…

I’m saying that reflections are overpowered in their current form. Not every class has access to them as well, making classes like guardians mostly sought for fotm. That’s why your analogy is invalid here.

Ever tried to reflect malrona attack while she was vulnerable? 40-50% of her hp with one feedback with a condition damage mesmer. Does that look okay to you?

@haviz: if its ok or not, i can’t decide now, because i don’t know if that was intended or not. My point was, why blame players that use the game mechanics in legit way to make things faster?

@wethospu:
1) I don’t fully agree. If enemies are able to dodge out of your STATIC skills, its no ok. Because they will most certainly spam that dodge
2) Dont know why this isnt already in the game.
3) Same as above
4) This will make anti projectile skills useless. They could simply eliminate those skills and leave the mobs as they are. I dont agree with this.
5) Good point
6) This takes too much processing, resulting in lag or chaotic behaviour of the mobs. Risky to implement
7) Would be nice

I’m not blaming anyone, I’m pointing at overused tactic that is projectile reflection.

codpin.6542:

1) I don’t fully agree. If enemies are able to dodge out of your STATIC skills, its no ok. Because they will most certainly spam that dodge
4) This will make anti projectile skills useless. They could simply eliminate those skills and leave the mobs as they are. I dont agree with this.
6) This takes too much processing, resulting in lag or chaotic behaviour of the mobs. Risky to implement

1) Then they are out of endurance and you can punish. They will avoid bit more damage but in return their health can be lowered. Makes conditions and CC more useful while punishing direct damage.
4) Anti-projectile would still provide decent damage (if enemy hits it ~2 times before noticing) and very superior defensive skill instead of current “fire&forget-I-Win”-button.
6) Occasional “am I too close?” or checking direction to dodge out of AoE doesn’t sound very expensive or chaotic for me. Obviously melees would still be close when sticking to same target. Making them move as a group mostly meant aggroing whole group if one is attacked. I’m not really wanting/expecting complex tactics (like how to optimally attack targets behind corners).

A few things I wanted to offer up:

1) Stacking and Reflection use are both natural responses to current design. It’s commonly referred to as ‘meta’ because it is an effective tactic that has the highest ease of use for the broadest player base and gains general acceptance. Meta tactics have existed in most games and represent neither exploits nor an activity that ’goes against the design of the game._ It is simply a commonly accepted, efficient method of dealing with the puzzle that devs present in encounters.

2) Any change in encounter design will prompt a change in Meta. That is the nature of the game. If devs add encounter mechanics that discourage close grouping (attacks that bounce and become more punishing with more bounces as an example) you’ll see shifts towards builds that reward use of swiftness and a focus on range so that parties can spread out more.

I don’t want to argue that the status quo is the best thing in the world, but, remember, it’s taken six+ months for the state of the game to reach this point. That’s not a bad life cycle for a strong meta to emerge and take hold. It actually argues well for the level of complexity in encounters and the diversity of encounters.

phandaria.4891:

1. LoS or Stacking. Using walls/obstacle to group up enemies. This greatly benefit several melee weapon set which gives high cleaving damage.

this is massively useful
EVERY dungeon runner should be aware of the benefit of grouping mobs or pushing them up against a wall
take CoE for example;
grouping the golems (at both the lasers and security override) makes them soooo much easier
pushing alpha into a wall allows warrs to hit with full whirlwind attack, eles to hit with the greatsword whirl (which does ridiculous DPS if all whirls hit), izerkers to hit with… well… its random… but more, and allows players to dodge INTO the wall to get more dps in after the dodge
– the most painful runs ive done in dungeons are ones where everyone kites/ranges stuff that isnt dangerous to glass cannons

phandaria.4891:

2. Reflect projectiles. Currently, some of the boss big damage is in the form of projectiles. While it can also be dodged, reflection is preferable as it gives gives extra, if not big, dps.

i prefer to think of reflection as defensive rather than offensive
and i dont think its the sole cause of class favouritsm in dungeons

Linguistically Inept.6583:

phandaria.4891:

2. Reflect projectiles. Currently, some of the boss big damage is in the form of projectiles. While it can also be dodged, reflection is preferable as it gives gives extra, if not big, dps.

i prefer to think of reflection as defensive rather than offensive
and i dont think its the sole cause of class favouritsm in dungeons

^ I agree with this assertion – Reflects should be considered defensive rather than offensive. The mistake is that ANET didn’t incorporate a characters power / skill damage multiplier versus base damage of the attack to be reflected.

Phan, if ANET changed the amount of damage reflects do – as in attacks reflects do around 1k damage instead of full boss damage(10-50k) would you be OK with reflects?

Also Phan – I’d like to know how you propose aggro control and grouping enemies in preparation for small AoE?

Curse those people and their tactics. Who would imagine they would use those to complete a dungeon! They should stand and take that fireball to the face like a MAN. Back in my day we didn’t have all these fancy “do da’s” we just hit each other in turns!

CassieGold.7460:

A few things I wanted to offer up:

1) Stacking and Reflection use are both natural responses to current design. It’s commonly referred to as ‘meta’ because it is an effective tactic that has the highest ease of use for the broadest player base and gains general acceptance. Meta tactics have existed in most games and represent neither exploits nor an activity that ’goes against the design of the game._ It is simply a commonly accepted, efficient method of dealing with the puzzle that devs present in encounters.

2) Any change in encounter design will prompt a change in Meta. That is the nature of the game. If devs add encounter mechanics that discourage close grouping (attacks that bounce and become more punishing with more bounces as an example) you’ll see shifts towards builds that reward use of swiftness and a focus on range so that parties can spread out more.

I don’t want to argue that the status quo is the best thing in the world, but, remember, it’s taken six+ months for the state of the game to reach this point. That’s not a bad life cycle for a strong meta to emerge and take hold. It actually argues well for the level of complexity in encounters and the diversity of encounters.

Well said. Dungeon difficulty assumes that players will use the skills the game provides them. If reflection is doing a lot of damage, it’s because the mob is doing a lot of damage. If this tactic is “overused” in current dungeon play, it is because it is the ideal mechanic for many situations. Once the mob behavior is altered, it might be less attractive. However, one thing to consider is that most of the group support abilities in GW2 require the entire group to be close together if all are to benefit.

Lucas Ashrock.8675:

achensherd.2735:

LoS and reflection are perfectly sound strategies. One is (at least in part) using the environment to your advantage, and the other is using skills as they’re designed. I do get what Phandaria is saying and can at least partially agree with the sentiment, but not in regards to the aforementioned strategies. I would probably consider content/mob-skipping to be more in line with “trivializing” content, tbh.

I call them strategies when every class can do the same. When reflection is just for 2 classes, and melee is not for every class, this is not strategy, this is abuse of class advantage. Unbalance, exploiting the content

Several classes have reflects Just not everyone uses them because they aren’t in the “staple build” for that class… Which pshh.

I don’t remember my necro having a reflect with similar results. Am i wrong?

When I check this site it tells me that mesmers and guardians are shining in reflections department while reflections of other classes have very short duration and usually works only on yourself.