PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't nerf Raids

PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't nerf Raids

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Posted by: SkylightMoon.1980

SkylightMoon.1980

Spirit Vale being the first raid released in gw2 is so perfect for a first raid. Each boss gets progressively more difficult and this is the first time that guild wars 2 has created content that requires high coordination and high individual performance. I raided in WoW for 3 years and was pretty impressed with how smooth this raid was.

Guild wars 2 has the capability to be an amazing raiding game, better so than WoW. The content lived up to its difficulty and Anet can surely go further with how difficult they want to make these bosses. Vale Guardian was perceived and this ominous threat when first released and now its seen as just another trash mob by those who are heavily experienced in it. Not to say it snot easy to wipe 20 times in a row on it, it still requires mechanics, but these fights have pushed me and my friends to our limits and beyond.

I think this is the type of content the community has really been asking for, difficult content. Raids in GW2 are one of the things released with HoT that have virtually no blemishes to them.

Some may say its too hard, that it requires too much dps or coordination, but they also forget that its meant to be extremely difficult, and that crying for a nerf is just purely immature.

Im just asking Anet to keep on track with their Raid development, because right now its looking awesome. I can’t wait for the next wing and I hope its just as hard.

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Posted by: Animism.6849

Animism.6849

I think I would disagree with your post – only about the difficulty of the raid. It is not too hard nor too easy. The mechanics that are proposed to make it difficult are not actually challenging – but an annoying hinderence. I give credit to their attempt, but I don’t think it worked for GW2 at all.

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Posted by: SkylightMoon.1980

SkylightMoon.1980

I think I would disagree with your post – only about the difficulty of the raid. It is not too hard nor too easy. The mechanics that are proposed to make it difficult are not actually challenging – but an annoying hinderence. I give credit to their attempt, but I don’t think it worked for GW2 at all.

Tbh this sorta sounds like the normal criticism people make in gw2 whenever something is too hard. They accuse it of being “falsely” difficult. What would you consider a good mechanic? A lot of the mechanics in the raid require people not to screw up and encourage high individual performance. You may be considering difficulty for annoyance.

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Posted by: Atharian.7092

Atharian.7092

Edit: I was incorrect, sorry about that. I’ll remove this post so it stops being quoted. For future reference, I was having an issue related to latency and boss movement.

(edited by Atharian.7092)

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Posted by: utred.6085

utred.6085

You’re doing something wrong.

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Posted by: Nokaru.7831

Nokaru.7831

ale Guardian lightning circle can spawn even outside the zone he is in, and it can spawn on the other side of the map where no one can reach it in time. I’ve killed the guy and the only “difficult” part of it was the green circle RNG.

The Distributed Magic circle cannot spawn anywhere except in the section of the room the Vale Guardian is in. If you want to convince people otherwise, then I suggest offering actual evidence (A video?) of this happening.

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Posted by: Atharian.7092

Atharian.7092

ale Guardian lightning circle can spawn even outside the zone he is in, and it can spawn on the other side of the map where no one can reach it in time. I’ve killed the guy and the only “difficult” part of it was the green circle RNG.

The Distributed Magic circle cannot spawn anywhere except in the section of the room the Vale Guardian is in. If you want to convince people otherwise, then I suggest offering actual evidence (A video?) of this happening.

That would be difficult due to the fact that I am Australian. Trying to stream or record a video with internet like mine would literally make the game unplayable.

My opinion is purely based on experience. The boss may have been moving between two zones, or had just entered the new zone, and we had the lightning circle spawn where we had just left, meaning it A was always in a lava zone and B was often too far away.

Our win actually came from ignoring a lightning circle that was behind us in a fire zone, and taking it on the chin, only to then recover with warbanner. That is my idea of a bad mechanic, since trying to do it correctly in that situation meant a wipe.

(edited by Atharian.7092)

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Posted by: utred.6085

utred.6085

The circle appearing in the fire zone is because you didn’t move him quickly enough. It is not RNG. Making sure this doesn’t happen is probably the hardest thing about the fight.

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Posted by: Atharian.7092

Atharian.7092

The circle appearing in the fire zone is because you didn’t move him quickly enough. It is not RNG. Making sure this doesn’t happen is probably the hardest thing about the fight.

Yes, correct, but it can happen during the transition phase too. As in when the boss has actually gone over the line, there is still time for the circle to spawn behind. In addition, if you fight him in the middle as is a popular tactic, lightning can go anywhere.

(edited by Atharian.7092)

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Posted by: Nokaru.7831

Nokaru.7831

Yes, correct, but it can happen during the transition phase too. As in when the boss has actually gone over the line, there is still time for the circle to spawn behind. In addition, if you fight him in the middle as is a popular tactic, lightning can go anywhere.

1. The Distributed Magic from the boss cannot happen “during the transition.” The boss is not there to cast it. It does not cast it even when it’s moving en-route to divide. The Blue Division can cast Distributed Magic, and only cast it in its section.

2. If you mean “right before transition”, you can minimize the damage this does by keeping the boss far away from the middle right before you transition.

3. If a group is keeping him directly in the center, that’s simply a bad strategy. They could, and should, always favor one section. It’s such a small, insignificant distance to move him in order to keep him in one section over another.

(edited by Nokaru.7831)

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Posted by: Atharian.7092

Atharian.7092

Yes, correct, but it can happen during the transition phase too. As in when the boss has actually gone over the line, there is still time for the circle to spawn behind. In addition, if you fight him in the middle as is a popular tactic, lightning can go anywhere.

1. The Distributed Magic from the boss cannot happen “during the transition.” The boss is not there to cast it. It does not cast it even when it’s moving en-route to divide. The Blue Division can cast Distributed Magic, and only cast it in its section.

2. If you mean “right before transition”, you can minimize the damage this does by keeping the boss far away from the middle right before you transition.

3. If a group is keeping him directly in the center, that’s simply a bad strategy. They could, and should, always favor one section. It’s such a small, insignificant distance to move him in order to keep him in one section over another.

I’ll accept I may be wrong, even if I do still loathe the mechanic. However, on point 3 I must disagree as that is actually one of the most effective ways to kill the boss right now, to the extent that it was an undocumented nerf in the most recent patch.

Edit: For clarity, when I said transition, I meant moving from one colour to the next. I did not mean the split. But that’s my bad, I explained it poorly and I apologize.

(edited by Atharian.7092)

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Posted by: utred.6085

utred.6085

You’re confusing things. What they nerfed was parties not breaking the breakbar for the express purpose of avoiding having to move the boss around to play around the hot zones. Whether or not the boss was in the middle was completely irrelevant for that tactic.
And if you loathe the mechanic I think you still don’t completely understand it because I really don’t see what you could possibly dislike about it. If you move the boss at the right time no green circle will ever spawn in a hot zone as for as I know. It punishes bad timing and slow movement.

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Posted by: Atharian.7092

Atharian.7092

You’re confusing things. What they nerfed was parties not breaking the breakbar for the express purpose of avoiding having to move the boss around to play around the hot zones. Whether or not the boss was in the middle was completely irrelevant for that tactic.
And if you loathe the mechanic I think you still don’t completely understand it because I really don’t see what you could possibly dislike about it. If you move the boss at the right time no green circle will ever spawn in a hot zone as for as I know. It punishes bad timing and slow movement.

On your first point I disagree. While you could do the “No CC” strategy anwhere, lets not pretend it was not most often done in the middle. Hell, the strategy existed so you could maintain DPS at all times, which meant being able to melee from any zone.

As for the second. The mere act of a raid wiping mechanic being able to spawn on a floor that kills you is, in my opinion, a bad mechanic. Then again, maybe we just have different ideas on what good or bad mechanics are, and there is nothing wrong with that.

(edited by Atharian.7092)

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Posted by: Nokaru.7831

Nokaru.7831

I understand that the skill can be annoying to learn, especially since many of the fight’s mechanics are traps set up to hinder you, like Seekers.

Distributed Magic isn’t necessarily a raid wiper though. There are things that we can do to prevent it from straight-up killing us, like “Rebound!” or invulnerability skills. If a Warrior survives it, he can use Battle Standard on his allies.

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Posted by: Atharian.7092

Atharian.7092

I understand that the skill can be annoying to learn, especially since many of the fight’s mechanics are traps set up to hinder you, like Seekers.

Distributed Magic isn’t necessarily a raid wiper though. There are things that we can do to prevent it from straight-up killing us, like “Rebound!” or invulnerability skills. If a Warrior survives it, he can use Battle Standard on his allies.

Sure, that is a good point. I’m just assuming it was intended to kill you. I personally have 25k health on my Valkyrie Reaper and it still almost kills me, for example.

That said, I don’t like how people are acting like I don’t know the mechanics here. I don’t pretend to be all knowing, but I’ve killed him twice and attempted him many more times you know. It would be difficult to get that far without knowing mechanics.

Regardless, I kind of hijacked the thread, so I apologize and will see myself out.

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Posted by: utred.6085

utred.6085

You’re confusing things. What they nerfed was parties not breaking the breakbar for the express purpose of avoiding having to move the boss around to play around the hot zones. Whether or not the boss was in the middle was completely irrelevant for that tactic.
And if you loathe the mechanic I think you still don’t completely understand it because I really don’t see what you could possibly dislike about it. If you move the boss at the right time no green circle will ever spawn in a hot zone as for as I know. It punishes bad timing and slow movement.

As for the second. The mere act of a raid wiping mechanic being able to spawn on a floor that kills you is, in my opinion, a bad mechanic. Then again, maybe we just have different ideas on what good or bad mechanics are, and there is nothing wrong with that.

You’re still acting like the green circle can just randomly appear anywhere. You’re not wiping because you can’t get to the green circle in the hot zone. You’re wiping because it appeared there in the first place. It appeared there because the party kittened up. This is like saying lupi is an unfair boss because he has too much health after getting 25 grub stacks.

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Posted by: Henry.5713

Henry.5713

Everyone seems to have a different opinion on “the right way” to make content difficult.
I am actually liking the timer myself.
Would have wanted it to require a bit more tanking and support and a little less dps, though. Still, could be way worse.

Most of all, just want them to keep the new raid encounters coming. Everything will be perceived as way easier than it actually is after you have done it a million times (look at dungeons).

(edited by Henry.5713)

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Posted by: harold.3526

harold.3526

But it is falsely difficult. Vale Guardian lightning circle can spawn even outside the zone he is in, and it can spawn on the other side of the map where no one can reach it in time. I’ve killed the guy and the only “difficult” part of it was the green circle RNG.

It is not RNG, green circle appears with specific time interval, and the platforms change from lit→non-lit in a specific period.

On phase 3 →
The ground stay lit by 15 seconds, 5 seconds all ground is non-lit
There is one CC every 2 lit grounds.

SO on phase 3, ask your tank alternately pull him to the next section after 13 seconds with ground lit, than after 10 seconds with ground lit and GG (Yes i tank VG and i keep eye on the time the full fight)

On phase 5 →
The ground stay lit by 10 seconds, 5 seconds all ground is non-lit
There is one CC every 2 lit grounds.

SO on phase 5, ask your tank alternately pull him to the next section after 7 seconds with ground lit, than after 5 seconds with ground lit and GG

This is how your tank do perfectly the job to the green lightning appear on the right section always, if the party don’t CCs than you need better comp/players

Chaos | Death And Taxes [DnT]

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Posted by: Atharian.7092

Atharian.7092

Yeah, I get it, I’m wrong. I discussed it with a mate of mine and I’ll just assume its a side effect to playing with 300 latency. But, my group has killed him, so either way. Ironically enough I’m actually enjoying Gorseval far more, though I have yet to kill him.

(edited by Atharian.7092)

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Posted by: SkylightMoon.1980

SkylightMoon.1980

There really isnt much RNG in these fights if thats what you consider false difficulty. The only fight that really has an instance of RNG and you’ll understand why whenever you get to it.

Any mechanic that can kill you or wipe a raid thats based on RNG is pretty stupid I admit but this isn’t really the case with Sabetha.

Basically whenever you are returning to a platform from destroying a cannon, she can start activating her flamethrower on your way back and instantly kill you. The thing is I think the timing on this is so specific that it just seems RNG-ish. There are so many little things in the Sabetha fight that you must micromanage, and if you don’t, it seems almost random in some ways. Her flamethower has a timer though from what I understand.

With gorseval I don’t remember there being any RNG aspects to it.

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Posted by: Notsoperky.2348

Notsoperky.2348

So, just so I get the fights, it’s ‘gimmick gimmick gimmick’ and if you miss gimmick 1 you wipe due to inst gib gimmick.

Raids don’t need to be made easier, they need difficulty levels so novices to the fights can learn the mechanics and not drag the whole party to failure as they didn’t jump during gimmick phase 4 part 2 when they should have dodged.

Having ‘one size fits all’ just means there is an ever increasing gap between those that jumped on at the start and now have memorised all the gimmicks and those that want to take part in raids but find themselves excluded from experienced parties due to the increased chance of failure if you include someone new. Just leads to lots of frustration all round and is very easily fixed.

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Posted by: SkylightMoon.1980

SkylightMoon.1980

So, just so I get the fights, it’s ‘gimmick gimmick gimmick’ and if you miss gimmick 1 you wipe due to inst gib gimmick.

Raids don’t need to be made easier, they need difficulty levels so novices to the fights can learn the mechanics and not drag the whole party to failure as they didn’t jump during gimmick phase 4 part 2 when they should have dodged.

Having ‘one size fits all’ just means there is an ever increasing gap between those that jumped on at the start and now have memorised all the gimmicks and those that want to take part in raids but find themselves excluded from experienced parties due to the increased chance of failure if you include someone new. Just leads to lots of frustration all round and is very easily fixed.

First of all, your criticism is basically following the same line of logic as most who criticize raids. ITS TOO HARD

Raid wipe mechanics encourage people to execute mechanics, simple as that. There arn’t a lot of mechanics where one person can wipe an entire raid. On VG this is true if someone who is a dedicated green circle doesnt go in.

These raids are meant to have very high coordination and individual performance. Failing to execute either should be very punishing. In all cases, you either die, your raid wipes, or you take massive damage. Thats the way it should be. We already see instances in gw2 where failing to executes mechanics doesn’t punish you much. Thats why the encounters are so easy and facerollish.

Every game that has raids and aims to create difficulty has punishment in the form of either raid wipe or massive damage. Literally every game. Making this criticism towards gw2 is basically making it towards every serious raiding game, making it a sort of stupid criticism since its more of being aimed at raiding in general, not justs gw2 raiding.

Thats okay though, raids arn’t for everyone. If you can’t stand high coordination and high individual performance, that tends to breed a lot of frustration but also very fun moments, then raiding isn’t for you.

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Posted by: brunobyof.3541

brunobyof.3541

VG is puggable but gorseval dont. At least for some time. Gorseval need really high DPS check and generally speaking , pugs come using something wrong, worng food wrong gear or wrong skills or they simply cant do their rotations good enough for the higher DPS.