Guild Wars 2

tldr; old comps still work just fine, tell your chrono to change their runes.

with everyone flipping kittens over the apparent heat-death of Revs as a class and the assumption that 5-5 mirror Chrono/Druid/PS/DPS/DPS is the way of the future, I have come to tell you all to calm your collective kittens.

7-2-1 and 4-4-2 and even the fabled 2-1-1-6 all still work just fine. More than fine; once your chrono adjusts to the new rotation and swaps their runes out, and your healer figures out that HP is probably a good idea now, everything is fine and there is hardly (<5%) difference in…. well, anything.

5-5 assumes your druids dont pet swap, assumes your DPSers are perfect, assumes your perfect DPSers are running a perfect DPS Class, and trades an entire DPS role for a completely arbitrary over-compensation that exists to blindly adhere to the old way of chronomancering. When replacing a Herald requires putting in a second PS warrior, a second chronomancer, and changing the way both of your druids play, how are people still sitting there saying it’s not helpful?

5-5 looks good on paper, and is GD terrible in practice – especially for pugs. Just adjust and run the same teams you used to run before. It’ll be just fine; I promise.

Good job, going on public forums, claiming stuff without showing a single number, base or proof to your claims.
Great post, 5/7.

(What is 2-1-1-6 even suppose to be??)

2-1-1-6 is a chrono/rev, healer, healer, everyone else

Hello Imgurian; Thank you for the top-rating of my post. I don’t really care to post videos post-patch of these comps full-clearing all 9 bosses, and instead figured that maybe someone actually saying it instead of contributing to the endless WHaaaaaaaambulancing would convince maybe a whole 1% of people to try it again, and see that 5-5 is a terrible comp that doesnt even need to be adopted.

I don’t know what any of the numbers mean =/

AndyJo.8794:

2-1-1-6 is a chrono/rev, healer, healer, everyone else

Hello Imgurian; Thank you for the top-rating of my post. I don’t really care to post videos post-patch of these comps full-clearing all 9 bosses, and instead figured that maybe someone actually saying it instead of contributing to the endless WHaaaaaaaambulancing would convince maybe a whole 1% of people to try it again, and see that 5-5 is a terrible comp that doesnt even need to be adopted.

Oh, it’s the 7-2-1 of those who want to healers, but still think a second PS is a DPS loss, I get it now.

I never said you can’t clear all 9 bosses with those comps, I know you can, but then again all those bosses can also be done with half the amount of players, or with 10 out of the same class.
If you don’t care to post numbers, don’t post it at all, I just hope that those 1% are smart enough to ignore tour post.
The only thing you’ve proven with this post is lack of knowledge in boon/buff distribution.

edit: Warcry, the numbers are various types of squad compositions built for buff distribution among squad sub-groups, for example 4-4-2 is:
Group 1 – PS, Druid, DPS, DPS
Group 2 – PS, Druid, DPS, DPS
Group 3 – Rev, Chrono

The point OP is trying to make is that mirror cop demands minmaxing and perfect rotations on a level pugs do NOT perform at. The old comp is still better, just weaker. Mirror comp will only work with very, very talented groups.

afrocrusade.4253:

The point OP is trying to make is that mirror cop demands minmaxing and perfect rotations on a level pugs do NOT perform at. The old comp is still better, just weaker. Mirror comp will only work with very, very talented groups.

I understand the point the OP is trying to make, I simply disagree with it.

Coconut.7082:

afrocrusade.4253:

The point OP is trying to make is that mirror cop demands minmaxing and perfect rotations on a level pugs do NOT perform at. The old comp is still better, just weaker. Mirror comp will only work with very, very talented groups.

I understand the point the OP is trying to make, I simply disagree with it.

shrug and you’re allowed to disagree with me. You, and anyone else who purposes that 5-5 is ‘the way to go’ and enforces this idea for LFG groups, may be wrong, but you’re welcome to be.

When the comps that already exist are more than capable of keeping up perma 25might, fury, quickness, regen, vigor, and protection, there’s no reason to run 5-5, especially in a more casual group or encounter. There’s no reason to soft-ban Revs from the group, and when 1 warrior can do the job just fine yes – a 2nd PS warrior is a DPS loss compared to a DD, Guardian, or Elementalist.

AndyJo.8794:

2-1-1-6 is a chrono/rev, healer, healer, everyone else

I don’t really care to post videos post-patch of these comps full-clearing all 9 bosses….

You don’t need to post videos. We all know that clearing the 9 bosses is doable with virtually any composition so long as you got the time work things through. For example, VG is down to what? 3-4 man clears, and Xera is currently being worked (if not already done) for low man clears? So, to your credit, yes 2-1-1-6/7-2-1/5-5/potato-potato will get the job done.

The discussion here is what is most optimal, and without numbers/videos to back up your claims we’re gonna have to go with what’s been provided on paper and on video (most notably from qT).

Now, let’s think about this practically.

7-2-1 runs in the issue that there is a single PS warrior dedicated to providing might to the DPS group. Sure, Rev can help out with this though 2/5 boon spots are already taken up by himself and the Chrono, and a third spot could potentially be taken up by the Druid. Speaking of Druid there’s an issue with buff distribution as well since best case her buff will go to herself and the 4 others in the DPS team while worst case her buffs will go to her, the Chrono and Rev, and only leave 2 buffing spots for the DPS team.

2-1-1-6 runs into similar issues though PS warrior can mostly take care of his smaller DPS team. However buffs and boons from the Chrono, Druids, Rev could potentially go to the 2nd Druid leaving the DPS team even more lacking of buffs.

4-4-2 Remedies the issue of Druid buffs being uncontrol with the exception of GotL stacks since those are tied to who gets healed. Both teams also have dedicated PS’s to ensure banner buffs and Might stacks in each sub.

The only issue that remains with the comps listed above (due to the recent balance patch) is that the duration of Quickness from Chrono was severed. So while a Chrono will still be able to buff the same number of team members they will be getting dramatically less duration on their Quickness boons.

Reintroducing to 5-5 remedies that last issue by adding a dedicated Chrono to each group who is able to maintain [near] perma uptime on Quickness for their assigned subs. The added alacrity also benefits the team as a whole especially Ele’s when fighting bosses with larger hitboxes.

In regards to your claim to Druids never being able to swap pets? That’s not the case. Chrono’s are also applying Fury through Active and traited SoI. Also, Druids running Nature Magic have extended boon duration for themselves and their pets, and they can even bring Warhorn which works well for Regen uptime when traited as well as Fury.

“DPSers are perfect, assumes your perfect DPSers are running a perfect DPS Class”

Every comp assumes that everyone will be perfect. Ironically enough to your claim, 5-5 is actually the most forgiving since it has redundancy built into the comp itself. E.G. If something happens to Squad 1, Squad 2 has an identical self-functioning backup that is independent of the first group.

That’s not to say that “Go 5-5 or go home” but it definitely is the go-to comp for optimization right now, so unfortunately that means you got the copy-pasta folks on LFG that are gonna push for that. If they can pull it off? Great! If they can’t, well they can either adapt to something that’s more comfortable for them or just let themselves get beat up over and over again.

just to play devils advocate here, we sometimes ran 6-2-1-1.
However it was chrono&rev, druid, ps, 6 whatever else we needed for utility/dps.

However the way buffs share it still ended up with some missing some buffs, so we have some semi-rng ( positioning could influence it considerably) on dps, due to who gets buffs.
Also it’s a lot harder with soi not copying 25 stacks of might to maintain the might coverage.

Also with nature magic, tiger is 15s of fury, with some soi, druid can swap pets for CC just fine.

Id say 5-5 gives a lot more margin for error now to be honest.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

However the way buffs share it still ended up with some missing some buffs, so we have some semi-rng ( positioning could influence it considerably) on dps, due to who gets buffs.

Great point. Ideally you can maintain proper positioning to maximize and correctly apply buffs/boons to the DPS squads. Realistically, there’s a lot of moving going on in most fights that make ideal positioning virtually impossible especially for those “hot feet” folks who have to maintain their “salad” buffs.

savacli.8172:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

However the way buffs share it still ended up with some missing some buffs, so we have some semi-rng ( positioning could influence it considerably) on dps, due to who gets buffs.

Great point. Ideally you can maintain proper positioning to maximize and correctly apply buffs/boons to the DPS squads. Realistically, there’s a lot of moving going on in most fights that make ideal positioning virtually impossible especially for those “hot feet” folks who have to maintain their “salad” buffs.

My guild refers to it as “the twitch”

AndyJo.8794:

Coconut.7082:

afrocrusade.4253:

The point OP is trying to make is that mirror cop demands minmaxing and perfect rotations on a level pugs do NOT perform at. The old comp is still better, just weaker. Mirror comp will only work with very, very talented groups.

I understand the point the OP is trying to make, I simply disagree with it.

shrug and you’re allowed to disagree with me. You, and anyone else who purposes that 5-5 is ‘the way to go’ and enforces this idea for LFG groups, may be wrong, but you’re welcome to be.

When the comps that already exist are more than capable of keeping up perma 25might, fury, quickness, regen, vigor, and protection, there’s no reason to run 5-5, especially in a more casual group or encounter. There’s no reason to soft-ban Revs from the group, and when 1 warrior can do the job just fine yes – a 2nd PS warrior is a DPS loss compared to a DD, Guardian, or Elementalist.

I may be wrong, but my claim was tested and proved by various top guilds, unlike yours.

“The comps that already exist”, those comps existed for a reason, that reason changed so the comps change as well, accept the change and move on. You don’t have to run the new comps if you don’t feel like it, but don’t claim that they are no good because of already existing old comps.
PSA you ou can keep up perma 25 might, fury, quickness, regen, vigor and protection with 10 Guardians, so there’s no reason to run 7-2-1 (do you see something wrong with my statement?).

No one “soft banned” Revenant from groups, yes they are not effective as before, but running a Rev in 5-5 is not terrible, in fact it might even be the safer choice in some PuGs.

Please enlighten me on how running a second PS is a DPS loss (look up, pre-patch 4-4-2 comp).

Lots of handwaving here with no proof that 5-5 is an inferior comp.

My experience with 5-5 has been generally positive and there are so many reasons why it is a solid comp I see no reason to run anything else.

Reliable distortions = skip greens at VG, avoid shakes at sloth.

Double reflects for Matthias + tons of CC with 2 Gravity wells.

GOTL hits everyone reliably and everyone has perma fury/25 might unlike 7-2-1 where I sometimes had no fury even with a Rev.

And of course, Perma quickness + high alacrity uptime = more heals/more dps/more everything.

Pretty hard to argue against this unless your chronos are so bad you have no quickness anyway then yeah you can probably take whatever comp and suck just as bad.

afrocrusade.4253:

The point OP is trying to make is that mirror cop demands minmaxing and perfect rotations on a level pugs do NOT perform at. The old comp is still better, just weaker. Mirror comp will only work with very, very talented groups.

Mirror comp actually has the highest base DPS of any composition right now and affords pubs the greatest flexibility in build / class / gear selection as a result. You actually have to be far better to make the other compositions work with such awful quickness / alacrity / banner / ranger buff uptime.

savacli.8172:

The only issue that remains with the comps listed above (due to the recent balance patch) is that the duration of Quickness from Chrono was severed. So while a Chrono will still be able to buff the same number of team members they will be getting dramatically less duration on their Quickness boons.

That’s not completely right, because they changed how soi spreads boons without mentioning it in the patch notes. Pre-patch, soi would spread the boons to five other players and not to the chrono himself. This means, the chrono had perma-quickness because of his chrono-runes, and five other players recieved quicknes from soi.
After the october balance patch the chrono is also affected by casting soi, but he now can only spread boons to four other players. This makes 721 even worse, because when the revenant in the duo group with chrono gets all the quickness, only three other people benefit from soi.

Back in my days PSAs actually provided a public service.

I cant tell you anything about what is optimal but I can tell you what we did last night at gorse that worked well
8-1-1

chrono-ps-rev-ele-ele-ele-ele-ele
druid
druid

We met the dps checks to do no updrafts pretty easily. Rev was pulsing might,fury,regen, boon duration. Chrono would drop time warp for initial rotation and then do regular rotations from there. War was strength runes + dumplings.

We would not break his bar at all, chrono would distort the final tick of damage, and 2 magi druids would heal constantly through the break bar phase. Healing was so high, some of the eles would even use ice bow 4 during his break bar phase. I wasn’t that crazy, but I would do lava font, aa, and overload.

TLDR: It really doesn’t matter that much.

Nice proof you got there.

Lendruil.9061:

savacli.8172:

The only issue that remains with the comps listed above (due to the recent balance patch) is that the duration of Quickness from Chrono was severed. So while a Chrono will still be able to buff the same number of team members they will be getting dramatically less duration on their Quickness boons.

That’s not completely right, because they changed how soi spreads boons without mentioning it in the patch notes. Pre-patch, soi would spread the boons to five other players and not to the chrono himself. This means, the chrono had perma-quickness because of his chrono-runes, and five other players recieved quicknes from soi.
After the october balance patch the chrono is also affected by casting soi, but he now can only spread boons to four other players. This makes 721 even worse, because when the revenant in the duo group with chrono gets all the quickness, only three other people benefit from soi.

Good catch, oversight on my part because my head is still thoroughly applied to my desk after the last balance update.

Ultimately, what I was getting at is a Chrono is still applying Quickness to virtually all 10 players through a combination of all their skills (tides, wells, sig, etc) to some degree though mileage does indeed vary based on your sub comps. Regardless of the comp each individual player is getting far less stacks/seconds worth of Quickness and any other boons on the Chrono. Thus, two Chrono’s allows for a more reliability in Quickness uptime.

Rev is still great for bar-breaking, but that can be compensated by the rest of the team if a Rev isn’t brought along. That, and Chrono’s are bringing CC as well through they’re elite (yes, I realize the long coooldown). Essentially, I don’t necessarily agree that Rev is entirely useless, but when deciding on the weakest link the choice was pretty straight-forward in that Rev needed to go to make room for a second Chrono. The additional uptime Quickness and Alacrity uptime from Chrono contributes more to the squad’s damage output vs Rev’s boon output, Sin’s Presence, and personal DPS.

They should just remove alacrity from mes. Suddenly more classes are viable.

Quick question. Why do you kill dungeon bosses open field and not in fgs corners??

otome.2673:

Quick question. Why do you kill dungeon bosses open field and not in fgs corners??

Because the reasons to do so don’t exist anymore.

Ayrilana.1396:

otome.2673:

Quick question. Why do you kill dungeon bosses open field and not in fgs corners??

Because the reasons to do so don’t exist anymore.

Same goes for thoose compositions i guess

Shadowstep.6049:

They should just remove alacrity from mes. Suddenly more classes are viable.

Genius!

Fay.2357:

Shadowstep.6049:

They should just remove alacrity from mes. Suddenly more classes are viable.

Genius!

Well, why do you bring mes? For CD recharge and quickness. Limit those – 2 mes per raid is not mandatory anymore. They bring so much atm – you have to have a mes this causes too much class limitation for raid groups.

Shadowstep.6049:

Fay.2357:

Shadowstep.6049:

They should just remove alacrity from mes. Suddenly more classes are viable.

Genius!

Well, why do you bring mes? For CD recharge and quickness. Limit those – 2 mes per raid is not mandatory anymore. They bring so much atm – you have to have a mes this causes too much class limitation for raid groups.

2 Druid and 2 PS mandatory in both subgroups and that’s not a problem. Nerfing quickness is what made 2 chronos required. Suddenly 2 chronos and nerf alacrity is the right response… Really? If alacrity is nerfed again, the new comps will be 3 ele +druid/PS per group. That’s not the diversity increase you think will happen.

The real way to increase diversity is actually to buff alacrity. It sounds crazy but there is an important next step, buff quickness on another class enough to compete with Chrono quickness. Example, buff Rune of Chrono to be AOE 3 seconds of quickness. Necromancers can now provide 80% AOE quickness if they really want to. (I’m not saying this specific buff as it would turbo charge chrono but just an example of maximum diversity increase)

Likewise, herald needs an aura to buff condi duration and condi damage. Then it’s a choice between two might generators (PS or Herald) which buff power (banner/EP) or condi (new aura)

So what happens is that a group that doesn’t need DPS from CD skills would go with Necro quickness since Necro has better DPS than Chrono. CD based classes go in the Chrono subgroup.

Then you look at if the DPS classes are mostly condi or power. PS goes to the power group while Rev gives might and buffs to the condi group.

Agreed with OP, a 2nd mesmer who can’t give quickness for whole fight will be a dead weight because mesmer’s personal DPS is lower than that of a Rev. Having a Rev is much more safer for dishing out constant DPS. People really underestimate Assassin’s Presence and Rev’s best cc breaking ability.

Shark Drake.9461:

Agreed with OP, a 2nd mesmer who can’t give quickness for whole fight will be a dead weight because mesmer’s personal DPS is lower than that of a Rev. Having a Rev is much more safer for dishing out constant DPS. People really underestimate Assassin’s Presence and Rev’s best cc breaking ability.

Yeah but it is almost saying that a good player is better than a bad one. It’s like Nike’s video saying condi Engi is now dead because it’s harder to have the good rotation on engi while DPS of Engi and Ranger are close. In that case one can answer Necro is better when the target moves a lot because there is no field and torment ticks for more.

When comparing two things, the goal is to not make every parameter change at will but only change the thing you want to test, in that case Chrono or Revenant. Both should be either good or bad but if you take a good Chrono and a bad Rev who is messing up his fury application or Facet of nature then Chrono is obviously the best choice.

I agree that you get better results with players playing things they master rather than forced meta composition they do not understand, but this cannot be made as a rule of “this is in any case better..”

Shark Drake.9461:

Agreed with OP, a 2nd mesmer who can’t give quickness for whole fight will be a dead weight because mesmer’s personal DPS is lower than that of a Rev. Having a Rev is much more safer for dishing out constant DPS. People really underestimate Assassin’s Presence and Rev’s best cc breaking ability.

qT’s Commentary regarding Rev from a recent benchmark post that they recently made.

On Mesmer, and ultimately the need for 2 of them now:

Mesmer: You can only keep perma quickness on 5 people instead of 10, because Signet of Inspiration was reworked and the quickness stack cap was reduced from 9 to 5. Chronomancer runes are now useless because you have no longer have a way of sharing it to your allies. Timewarp provides almost no gain in quickness because of the stack cap, so you can bring Gravity Well or Signet of Humility for breakbars. After the rework Signet of Inspiration is still one of the strongest skills you have for providing quickness.

On Rev in regards to DPS increase

Revenant: The double Chronomancer meta puts Revenant in a tough spot. We tested a lot of compositions to try include Revenant, however in the end, running without a Rev was just always better. In a Power group set up, Revenant gives around ~3% damage increase through Assassin’s presence but would take the spot from a full dps Profession at the same time. The overall benefit of Assassin’s Presence is not enough to make running a Revenant worthwhile when comparing the DPS you would gain if you just took another DPS class instead.We also tried Revenant in a group with Condition PS Warrior to help with might generation however that puts rev in a group with other condition professions, thus Assassin’s presence is completely wasted. In the end if your group still decides to run with a Revenant, it won’t make the difference between success or failure in a raid, Rev still brings some nice utility to a group but is now an optional safe, decent DPS choice rather than a mandatory slot in a raid group as it was before the patch.

Effectively, for full squad quickness you need to have 2 Chrono’s since Quickness sharing has become scarce. I agree though, Chrono’s have a lot of pressure to not screw up as there is less margin for error in their rotation. In other words, even during the pre-patch you could be somewhat sloppy on your rotation/queues and still manage to throw out tons of quickness because of how many stacks of Quickness Chrono’s generated and how frequently it got shared out with SoI. Nowadays, Chrono’s following the current meta build are geared only to provide 5 stacks (cap) so if they mess up on anything the rest of the team is definitely going to feel it. However, the slight “net” is the fact that they are providing Alacrity more readily as well to their subsquad vs pre-patch a single Chrono was never able to provide perma alacrity for the whole squad.

So at this point, double Chrono is more of less mandatory. If you want to take Rev you would be asking to take up a spot in the DPS team rather than taking up one of the spots of a Chrono since that will gut your squad’s overall DPS since 1 Chrono alone can’t supply enough Quickness for all 10 members anymore.

Edit: As far as a Chrono that can’t generate Quickness is dead weight? Same goes for PS who can’t generate might (misses too many attacks) or Druid who doesn’t generate GotL stacks (doesn’t toggle CF). Everyone has their roles in a squad so playing sloppy will only delay the encounter if not make it more difficult altogether.

Bad mesmers are bad, more at 11.

I pug mostly and most of the chronos I had the pleasure never give permanent alacrity or quickness. Which is fine as long as we get the job done. Just because you have a pro build doesn’t make you a pro player.

Magnus Godrik.5841:

I pug mostly and most of the chronos I had the pleasure never give permanent alacrity or quickness. Which is fine as long as we get the job done. Just because you have a pro build doesn’t make you a pro player.

“I’ll take ‘State the obvious’ for 400, Alex”

In all seriousness that’s kinda the whole point; you can’t just grab a pro/elite build and expect to become a rockstar overnight. The only difference between builds that have been defined as optimal and others are that optimal builds have the potential to in damage output (in regards to PvE meta).

Granted those same optimal builds generally come with several gotchas in that you need the right team composition and you gotta know how to run through the rotation with a certain precision. Otherwise, you’ll end up gimping the rest of the team. If you can roll with the meta and pull it off well? Awesome! Otherwise just stick to what you know and be willing to adapt where you can. If a group doesn’t like you because you’re not rolling the meta? Well, that’s on them. They may or may not find “the right guy” and even then they may or may not clear the encounter faster after waiting for that person that meets all their bullet points.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Nice proof you got there.

Here is my guild killing gorse no updrafts this Thursday night. Incredibly non-meta composition. We chose this comp because we felt it was best with the classes we had available and who was comfortable with what.

8-1-1
chrono-rev-ps-condi ranger-ele-ele-ele
druid (magi)
ele (magi)

I think this video demonstrates that regular players can get kills without strictly following the meta.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JSW8aExLyg

thrag.9740:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Nice proof you got there.

Here is my guild killing gorse no updrafts this Thursday night. Incredibly non-meta composition. We chose this comp because we felt it was best with the classes we had available and who was comfortable with what.

8-1-1
chrono-rev-ps-condi ranger-ele-ele-ele
druid (magi)
ele (magi)

I think this video demonstrates that regular players can get kills without strictly following the meta.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JSW8aExLyg

Yes it can be done with any composition, nobody denied that, so what is the point?

Coconut.7082:

thrag.9740:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Nice proof you got there.

Here is my guild killing gorse no updrafts this Thursday night. Incredibly non-meta composition. We chose this comp because we felt it was best with the classes we had available and who was comfortable with what.

8-1-1
chrono-rev-ps-condi ranger-ele-ele-ele
druid (magi)
ele (magi)

I think this video demonstrates that regular players can get kills without strictly following the meta.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JSW8aExLyg

Yes it can be done with any composition, nobody denied that, so what is the point?

Oh sorry, forgot to mention, this group tried no updrafts with 5-5 and it was not pretty. The point is evidence to back ops claim that 5-5 may not be as good in practice as other comps. A typical player enters a raid with 9 other typical players, the best ways to get kills is to adapt to what your team has.

qt can post video of their 10 (exceptionally good) players clearing with 5-5 all day. But if your team only has 1 chrono who is good, and then 9 crappy chronos alts it doesn’t count for much.

edit: just to clear up, im not saying 5-5 is bad, im just saying it really isn’t that big of a deal what you run.

thrag.9740:

Coconut.7082:

thrag.9740:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Nice proof you got there.

Here is my guild killing gorse no updrafts this Thursday night. Incredibly non-meta composition. We chose this comp because we felt it was best with the classes we had available and who was comfortable with what.

8-1-1
chrono-rev-ps-condi ranger-ele-ele-ele
druid (magi)
ele (magi)

I think this video demonstrates that regular players can get kills without strictly following the meta.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JSW8aExLyg

Yes it can be done with any composition, nobody denied that, so what is the point?

Oh sorry, forgot to mention, this group tried no updrafts with 5-5 and it was not pretty. The point is evidence to back ops claim that 5-5 may not be as good in practice as other comps. A typical player enters a raid with 9 other typical players, the best ways to get kills is to adapt to what your team has.

qt can post video of their 10 (exceptionally good) players clearing with 5-5 all day. But if your team only has 1 chrono who is good, and then 9 crappy chronos alts it doesn’t count for much.

edit: just to clear up, im not saying 5-5 is bad, im just saying it really isn’t that big of a deal what you run.

You’re still saying the strength of the composition has to do with the strength of the individuals.

The fact of that is, the better the players in the squad, the smoother it will be. Regardless of the comp used.

thrag.9740:

Coconut.7082:

thrag.9740:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Nice proof you got there.

Here is my guild killing gorse no updrafts this Thursday night. Incredibly non-meta composition. We chose this comp because we felt it was best with the classes we had available and who was comfortable with what.

8-1-1
chrono-rev-ps-condi ranger-ele-ele-ele
druid (magi)
ele (magi)

I think this video demonstrates that regular players can get kills without strictly following the meta.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JSW8aExLyg

Yes it can be done with any composition, nobody denied that, so what is the point?

Oh sorry, forgot to mention, this group tried no updrafts with 5-5 and it was not pretty. The point is evidence to back ops claim that 5-5 may not be as good in practice as other comps. A typical player enters a raid with 9 other typical players, the best ways to get kills is to adapt to what your team has.

qt can post video of their 10 (exceptionally good) players clearing with 5-5 all day. But if your team only has 1 chrono who is good, and then 9 crappy chronos alts it doesn’t count for much.

edit: just to clear up, im not saying 5-5 is bad, im just saying it really isn’t that big of a deal what you run.

5-5 is currently the only comp that offers you full boon/buff coverage, not only that, it’s also the safest one: bringing 2 potential healers & 2 chronos (of which only one is tanking so the other has less pressure on him).
I don’t know why your team failed, but players being bad at their class is not an excuse to call a team comp bad.

This post is about trying to show that 5-5 is bad and other comps are superior to it, which is false, by fact. So showing us that other comps work as well is pretty pointless to the cause.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

thrag.9740:

Coconut.7082:

thrag.9740:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Nice proof you got there.

Here is my guild killing gorse no updrafts this Thursday night. Incredibly non-meta composition. We chose this comp because we felt it was best with the classes we had available and who was comfortable with what.

8-1-1
chrono-rev-ps-condi ranger-ele-ele-ele
druid (magi)
ele (magi)

I think this video demonstrates that regular players can get kills without strictly following the meta.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JSW8aExLyg

Yes it can be done with any composition, nobody denied that, so what is the point?

Oh sorry, forgot to mention, this group tried no updrafts with 5-5 and it was not pretty. The point is evidence to back ops claim that 5-5 may not be as good in practice as other comps. A typical player enters a raid with 9 other typical players, the best ways to get kills is to adapt to what your team has.

qt can post video of their 10 (exceptionally good) players clearing with 5-5 all day. But if your team only has 1 chrono who is good, and then 9 crappy chronos alts it doesn’t count for much.

edit: just to clear up, im not saying 5-5 is bad, im just saying it really isn’t that big of a deal what you run.

You’re still saying the strength of the composition has to do with the strength of the individuals.

The fact of that is, the better the players in the squad, the smoother it will be. Regardless of the comp used.

Yes, but its not as simple as “player x is good”, its “player x is good at class y”. If you don’t have players good at the classes for 5-5 then 5-5 isn’t going to be good. Again, if you don’t have 2 players who know how to play chrono, 5-5 isn’t going to net you much. As I said above, you have to adapt your group. If you want to get kills, play to your strengths. Don’t try to play your weaknesses just so that you can fit into a perfect meta box.

Breaking: If you don’t have good players able to play the classes you need for a particular comp, the group won’t be good. More at 11.

Fay.2357:

Breaking: If you don’t have good players able to play the classes you need for a particular comp, the group won’t be good. More at 11.

Breaking: Being a sarcastic kitten and kitten posting does nothing to stop pugs from trying to stack eles on vg, when some easier to play necros would actually lead to them getting the kill.

My advocacy for effectiveness over blindly following the meta can have a positive impact, what does your post do?

thrag.9740:

Fay.2357:

Breaking: If you don’t have good players able to play the classes you need for a particular comp, the group won’t be good. More at 11.

Breaking: Being a sarcastic kitten and kitten posting does nothing to stop pugs from trying to stack eles on vg, when some easier to play necros would actually lead to them getting the kill.

My advocacy for effectiveness over blindly following the meta can have a positive impact, what does your post do?

Stupid is as stupid does. You can post until you’re blue in your face about this topic, but it won’t change the fact that people lacking the intelligence to understand how basic group dynamics function aren’t going to understand the point you’re making.

thrag.9740:

Fay.2357:

Breaking: If you don’t have good players able to play the classes you need for a particular comp, the group won’t be good. More at 11.

Breaking: Being a sarcastic kitten and kitten posting does nothing to stop pugs from trying to stack eles on vg, when some easier to play necros would actually lead to them getting the kill.

My advocacy for effectiveness over blindly following the meta can have a positive impact, what does your post do?

His post is just poking fun at the fact that the discussion ended long ago, yet you’re still going at it.

A. Yes, we all agree that virtually any comp can be used to clear encounters.

B. We agree that meta builds are only as effective as the players behind the screen using those builds.

C. To set the definition, optimal in this case is to mean what has the highest potential for the cleanest/fastest kill. Yes, we know mileage varies, and that we are humans prone to error. But that remains true for any build that’s more than just auto attacking….looking at you thieves.

D. Most of us on this thread (if not everyone but you) agree that 5-5 is currently the most optimal comp as of the 10/18 patch. While your video showed 8-1-1 is viable for the kill it did also demonstrate that your team was minutes behind even casual paces of the folks who generated the meta. So no, we’re not saying 5-5 is the ONLY way. It’s just the FASTER way.

E. Pugs will blindly follow the meta. That’s not new to the game. Remember the 4 wars+mes? Or how about the fgs meta? Might stacking, that was a huge thing back then. You run off without 25 stack, and you got the boot. Even if your average player has no clue why the meta was decided on the way it is, said player will still adopt it blindly if he believes they’ll get some sort of advantage.

F. We’re all frustrated with Pugs, it’s happens. If you don’t like what they’re selling just make you’re own group, and I’m sure plenty of people will join (no sarcasm intended). Are we saying that other comps are complete trash? Not at all; we’re just trying to set the record straight on a thread that has an otherwise misleading subject line.

savacli.8172:

thrag.9740:

Fay.2357:

Breaking: If you don’t have good players able to play the classes you need for a particular comp, the group won’t be good. More at 11.

Breaking: Being a sarcastic kitten and kitten posting does nothing to stop pugs from trying to stack eles on vg, when some easier to play necros would actually lead to them getting the kill.

My advocacy for effectiveness over blindly following the meta can have a positive impact, what does your post do?

His post is just poking fun at the fact that the discussion ended long ago, yet you’re still going at it.

A. Yes, we all agree that virtually any comp can be used to clear encounters.

B. We agree that meta builds are only as effective as the players behind the screen using those builds.

C. To set the definition, optimal in this case is to mean what has the highest potential for the cleanest/fastest kill. Yes, we know mileage varies, and that we are humans prone to error. But that remains true for any build that’s more than just auto attacking….looking at you thieves.

D. Most of us on this thread (if not everyone but you) agree that 5-5 is currently the most optimal comp as of the 10/18 patch. While your video showed 8-1-1 is viable for the kill it did also demonstrate that your team was minutes behind even casual paces of the folks who generated the meta. So no, we’re not saying 5-5 is the ONLY way. It’s just the FASTER way.

E. Pugs will blindly follow the meta. That’s not new to the game. Remember the 4 wars+mes? Or how about the fgs meta? Might stacking, that was a huge thing back then. You run off without 25 stack, and you got the boot. Even if your average player has no clue why the meta was decided on the way it is, said player will still adopt it blindly if he believes they’ll get some sort of advantage.

F. We’re all frustrated with Pugs, it’s happens. If you don’t like what they’re selling just make you’re own group, and I’m sure plenty of people will join (no sarcasm intended). Are we saying that other comps are complete trash? Not at all; we’re just trying to set the record straight on a thread that has an otherwise misleading subject line.

The discussion will never end because people read these forums to learn, I know I did and still do. I want to make sure players hear an argument for practically, focused on getting reliable kills, rather than only min-maxing speed.

I’m not going to discuss every bullet point because the main thing I want to say is that the “meta” is based around fastest kills. And for some reason, everyone thinks fastest = easiest. In your post, you demonstrate this mindset by saying ,“cleanest/fastest kill”.

Pugs are often in the position of wiping to mechanics etc, and so a stronger emphasis on defensive boons may be worth while for them. 5-5 is a fine comp to do this within, but the entire meta discussion is based around the idea that offensive boons are extremely valuable, and places relatively little emphasis on defensive boons like protection, resistance, and even stability. While the defensive boons may be more helpful to inexperienced groups.

thrag.9740:

The discussion will never end because people read these forums to learn, I know I did and still do. I want to make sure players hear an argument for practically, focused on getting reliable kills, rather than only min-maxing speed.

I’m not going to discuss every bullet point because the main thing I want to say is that the “meta” is based around fastest kills. And for some reason, everyone thinks fastest = easiest. In your post, you demonstrate this mindset by saying ,“cleanest/fastest kill”.

Pugs are often in the position of wiping to mechanics etc, and so a stronger emphasis on defensive boons may be worth while for them. 5-5 is a fine comp to do this within, but the entire meta discussion is based around the idea that offensive boons are extremely valuable, and places relatively little emphasis on defensive boons like protection, resistance, and even stability. While the defensive boons may be more helpful to inexperienced groups.

Now this, I can agree with. Every group is definitely different, and plenty of pugs play with the mindset of meta builds = free kills. It’s not by a long short as the rotations for some of the meta comp classes are very demanding, and that’s assuming you can budget for some of the more expensive builds.

For some groups, running meta builds is actually more comfortable and easier for them. For others? Not so much, especially for those learning as most (if not all) the meta builds are very fragile and work best when everyone is doing their part. In other words, someone’s lack of peak performance actually will jeopardize your gameplay. The flipside of course being that if everyone is playing properly Raid encounters are a breeze. In more casual builds you are more often self-reliant in regards to boons and buffs so it feels more relaxed.

Nonetheless, I think the initial raised eyebrows at the thread was just the subject line were you labeled 5-5 as bad. It’s definitely not bad (the best actually) in the right hands, though mileage will severely vary.