Guild Wars 2

So, In the case where you don’t have sleight of hand, scorpion wire, and basilisk venom. Which one will you use to strip defiance?

Pistol whip has higher dps than headshot but it needs 1 more iniatiative. In my opinion, There is no reason to use headshot over pistol whip. So will it be better to use d/d – s/p for bosses that needs stripping?

Just whip it all day erry day. While headshot is faster for defiance stripping you’ll be doing 0 dmg and there’s rarely a need to get then down immediately. Not to mention other classes have cc in their dps rotations/are very low cast time so they can just as easily take off a few stacks.

I hate playing with thieves whenever I’m on my ranger, makes it impossible to use path of scars without CCing the boss.

Pistol whip takes to long to remove anything over a single defiance, using headshot you can easily remove 4 in the same time. So if your groups helps it would probably be better, if not use headshot.

Taku.6352:

Just whip it all day erry day. While headshot is faster for defiance stripping you’ll be doing 0 dmg and there’s rarely a need to get then down immediately. Not to mention other classes have cc in their dps rotations/are very low cast time so they can just as easily take off a few stacks.

I hate playing with thieves whenever I’m on my ranger, makes it impossible to use path of scars without CCing the boss.

GG you broke the Icebowstun with your recommendation.

@OP never use Pistolwhip it overwrites stunand takes to long.

In Case you need to remove Stacks while the Boss is frozen Headshot is your only option as Pistolwhip breaks the Icebow Stun just like Basilisk Venom.
Otherwise Pistolwhip should be better, just never spam either Headshot or Pistolwhip when its not needed as you loose damage modifiers and other Classes will loose damage by not fully utilizing their rotations.

I remember sometimes ago there was a veteran runner in this forum (whose name I can’t quite remember) complaining about how stupid it is that every thieves in his runs spam Head Shot to get that second, third or even fourth deep freeze instead of doing DPS. In his opinion, everyone should always does DPS instead of trying to apply Deep Freeze as it’s a DPS loss and a lazy (?!) way to kill a boss. (It was quite a scene, I admit. Even I got called out for playing as a bad headshot spammer in a tour.)

In that light, shouldn’t we just DPS when the boss is frozen then using CC when the icebow is pinged? Probably a few stacks are already peeled.

If your goal is to remove Defiant stacks go with Headshot; the skill is much faster and will let you get back to your more damaging skills quicker. Pistol Whip, while offering higher damage than Headshot, is wasted potential on a boss as Dagger skills are much more worthwhile against single targets.

Sword has cleave making it more worthwhile against mobs. There’s also Pistol Whip + Malice Signet that can be used for cleave damage, evade frames, and recovery all in one skill. You also get access to Black Powder which is very useful against mobs.

Double Freeze is not needed in dungeons ever the only place where its “needed” is at Mossman and uncategorized champions and even there its just a matter of Steal+Scorpwire+Basilisk Venom together with what the team has.

perry.9645:

Double Freeze is not needed in dungeons ever the only place where its “needed” is at Mossman and uncategorized champions and even there its just a matter of Steal+Scorpwire+Basilisk Venom together with what the team has.

You know that Basilisk breaks Icebowstun?

otome.2673:

perry.9645:

Double Freeze is not needed in dungeons ever the only place where its “needed” is at Mossman and uncategorized champions and even there its just a matter of Steal+Scorpwire+Basilisk Venom together with what the team has.

You know that Basilisk breaks Icebowstun?

Did you even read the thread? because he literally said that an hour ago…

perry.9645:

Double Freeze is not needed in dungeons ever the only place where its “needed” is at Mossman and uncategorized champions and even there its just a matter of Steal+Scorpwire+Basilisk Venom together with what the team has.

I disagree. It’s depending on the group strength. If the group comprises mostly of a pug with people who seldom play together, trust me even the Risen Abomination will need a double freeze. I’ve been in a situation where everybody frantically looked for the Tranquilizer gun when the boss got frenzied because we pulled him into a weird spot and didn’t pull the Inquests together. Stuffs happen.

Most HotW bosses also need multiple freeze in a tour as well.

otome.2673:

You know that Basilisk breaks Icebowstun?

Yes I do that’s why i normally use it for the last 2 stacks, every Stun breaks Icebow as it overwrites it.

otome.2673:

perry.9645:

Double Freeze is not needed in dungeons ever the only place where its “needed” is at Mossman and uncategorized champions and even there its just a matter of Steal+Scorpwire+Basilisk Venom together with what the team has.

You know that Basilisk breaks Icebowstun?

I think his opinion means using Basilisk asDeep Freeze wears off. Perry is not amateur.

IrisTheCasual.3742:

I remember sometimes ago there was a veteran runner in this forum (whose name I can’t quite remember) complaining about how stupid it is that every thieves in his runs spam Head Shot to get that second, third or even fourth deep freeze instead of doing DPS. In his opinion, everyone should always does DPS instead of trying to apply Deep Freeze as it’s a DPS loss and a lazy (?!) way to kill a boss. (It was quite a scene, I admit. Even I got called out for playing as a bad headshot spammer in a tour.)

In that light, shouldn’t we just DPS when the boss is frozen then using CC when the icebow is pinged? Probably a few stacks are already peeled.

If you are constantly spamming headshot, you’re wasting the potential to be one of the highest DPS classes in the game, and basically degrade yourself to do worse DPS than the average mace/shield dolyak signet warrior.
If there is really a need to actually chain your freezes, headshot is an option, but I cant think of many scenarios where that is needed.
Usually Bassilisk venom + steal (and if you really want to, scorpion wire), in combination with other class’ defiance removal skills is more than enough to remove defiance stacks in a few seconds for a second freeze to be applied to the boss

Well, Steal is only possible recently with the patch change. Scorpion Wire and Basilisk Venom are the alternative CC that a thief possesses.

That said, I also agree with not spamming Headshot. 3 HS in a row and the thief will be stuck with auto attack alone. In that case, sword auto is actually more decent than dagger auto.

Edit: Of course, the post I mentioned was magnificently exaggerated. No one plays thief just to spam Headshot. I would bail if a group asks for Meta but doesn’t have enough DPS to back it up. Surely not after the patch.

unless they changed pistol whip(pw) on tuesday’s patch, I am 99% confident that pw does not break deep freeze stun. I always do instant double freeze on mossman/ first archie with thieves guild, mug, double PW, and warrior tremor. Everywhere else defiant stripping in my opinion is a waste of time.

D/P Strip Thieves, Facestabbers and people who wait for deep freezes, just a few of my pet peeves

Most of the fights don’t need a second Icebow. For the small number of fight that do need it here my strategy.

I replace my shortbow with D/P since I usually don’t need to blast anything. Start the fight in D/P, use the Icebow, drop the Icebow, strip quicky 3-4 Defiant (depending on the rest of the team), then switch immediatly to D/D for the rest of the fight. That way I lose dps only in a small window, while still stripping boons. It is probably more efficient if everybody participate in the stripping, but it can be hard to coordinate so that you don’t overstrip.

Anyway, In guild run I usually run with D/D – D/P and almost never bring Shortbow because I use Black Powder and my group blast in it. I usually only take shortbow for a moment when we need to make 2 stealth in less than 30sec.

Thaddeus.4891:

Most of the fights don’t need a second Icebow. For the small number of fight that do need it here my strategy.

I replace my shortbow with D/P since I usually don’t need to blast anything. Start the fight in D/P, use the Icebow, drop the Icebow, strip quicky 3-4 Defiant (depending on the rest of the team), then switch immediatly to D/D for the rest of the fight. That way I lose dps only in a small window, while still stripping boons. It is probably more efficient if everybody participate in the stripping, but it can be hard to coordinate so that you don’t overstrip.

Anyway, In guild run I usually run with D/D – D/P and almost never bring Shortbow because I use Black Powder and my group blast in it. I usually only take shortbow for a moment when we need to make 2 stealth in less than 30sec.

Its more dps if the one who dropped deep freezes you start defiance dtripping go to D/D AND USE THE 5 then pick up icebow deepfreeze and do the icestorm. On this way you have chained freezes perfectly and you got the revealed buff for icebow 4

I think I’ll expand on my post:

If it’s an organized group you can go with pw but probably wont need it.

If it’s a pug with experienced pug zerkers go with hs, they mostly are not coordinated enough to quad bow spike and therefore a 2nd freeze is used. (Of course it’s a bit boss dependant, you should not have to strip at the dredge fractal final bosses with this group)

If it’s a pug with semi-experienced (no prestacking of might/not picking up bows at all/no stealth skips) pug zerkers you often have enough time to get the 5 stacks down with pw but check with your group.

If it’s an inexperienced zerker pug which is able to follow simple commands check the damage spike at an opportune moment and decide accordingly.

If it’s a non zerker pug they generally dont expect you to remove stacks at all, or only when ib cd is up (hs is better here).

If it’s an inexperienced zerker pug or if you have players just throwing cc’s around (hammer wars/guards, gs mesmers, bow rangers, dd eles, rifle engis etc.) dont bother, it wont help with the run at all.

Lol, let’s fit your description with my rankings:

Organized Harcore > Casual Elites > Semi-casual / Super Pug > Tryhard Pug > Average Pug > BDSM Pug.

use headshot to clear stacks quickly, but only when no one else is removing stacks. headshot is good in a clutch, and is excellent for setting up a second freeze. be careful with your timing.

pistol whip takes longer, but you do more damage. I would save this skill for when you need to dodge, but also need to maintain dps and stay in the stack. do not rely on this for defiance management.

and as always, a little communication with your group goes a long way.

‘kay, let’s settle this.

Although Pistol Whip costs more initiative though does more damage, the reason to use Headshot to strip is because the defiance strip is much quicker, and your damage comes from D/D.

In the few bosses in dungeons and fractals that need stripping, and they’re very few already, you use Basilisk Venom + Headshot twice to strip 4 stacks, and the last stack can be removed by any hard CC, from others or another Headshot/Steal with Sleight of Hand.

Speaking of breaking a freeze, whenever a boss has Defiance stacks, whenever you use a CC on it it removes a stack, but if you use a CC on a frozen boss with no Defiance you break the ice, the new CC is applied and you may lose the duration of the freeze.

Which is why right after the boss is frozen, you can strip those stacks in a needed fight for another freeze, then start doing your damage rotation.

Also, freezing a frozen boss with no defiance stacks/unshakable has no effect whatsoever.

The idea is to make boss fights into a structure fight since actually interacting with game mechanics is bad. I mean, otherwise we’d have to bring tanks and healers back. So Headshot wins. Thief dps is terrible anyway they may as well be a defiance strip bot.

After many fractal runs, I find no need in spamming icebow 5’s tbh.
-Headshot is a SEVERE waste of DPS. Especially when running with a class that gives quickness like guardian/mesmer.. a full line of initiative gives.. like 4-5 headshots? that’s also 4-5 pistol whips in around 4-7 seconds..
-You’re looking at.. lets say 2000-3000 damage (from the 4-5 Headshots) and 80,000-100,000k+ from pistolwhips (4-5 of them).

Also as someone stated, ele Freezes, you remove defiance with PW spams for DPS, Pick up icebow, then Icebow 5 again if you want. Poof.

The point of stripping is the speed, not the damage, that’s why you should strip with Headshot, not Pistol Whip.

Stripping 5 stacks with Pistol Whip is way over the duration of Deep Freeze, which is 5 seconds. The point of stripping quickly is so that you can keep the boss disabled again with either another Deep Freeze or Fear+Needle Trap, etc.

ThyShadowPaladin.9521:

After many fractal runs, I find no need in spamming icebow 5’s tbh.
-Headshot is a SEVERE waste of DPS. Especially when running with a class that gives quickness like guardian/mesmer.. a full line of initiative gives.. like 4-5 headshots? that’s also 4-5 pistol whips in around 4-7 seconds..
-You’re looking at.. lets say 2000-3000 damage (from the 4-5 Headshots) and 80,000-100,000k+ from pistolwhips (4-5 of them).

Also as someone stated, ele Freezes, you remove defiance with PW spams for DPS, Pick up icebow, then Icebow 5 again if you want. Poof.

The thing that you missed is that you never do 4-5 H. You only need to stay in D/P for 2-3 second. Steal + Basilik Venom + 1-2 HS is really quick and after you can do the rest of the fight in D/D.

You lose some DPS during a couple of second by using D/P rather than S/P, but you’ll gain far more dps since you gonna switch to D/D very quicly. Especialy since the kind of fight when you want to double Icebow are fight against single target bosses where S/P can’t really compete in term of dps to D/D.

But at this point, the difference isn’t much really. Both method work great. It really depend which one you prefer to play and in which group.

EcoRI.9273:

unless they changed pistol whip(pw) on tuesday’s patch, I am 99% confident that pw does not break deep freeze stun. I always do instant double freeze on mossman/ first archie with thieves guild, mug, double PW, and warrior tremor. Everywhere else defiant stripping in my opinion is a waste of time.

CCs that remove Defiance won’t break the Deep Freeze. If whatever you’re fighting doesn’t have Defiance, is Deep Frozen, and you CC it again, then it will break the Deep Freeze.

Alright, Thank you for the discussion. I’ve got much new knowledge from this.

I still prefer the combo of scorpion wire, basilisk venom, and sleight of hand for removing defiance. But in pug, I usually need to take SoR for stealth rezzing. Also, I wish they will remove the casting delay for basilisk venom.

For a quick 5-stacks strip do Basilisk Venom -> 2x Headshot -> Steal (Sleight of Hand), saving a utility slot.

Then swap to D/D for some sik deeps.

Enko.6123:

EcoRI.9273:

unless they changed pistol whip(pw) on tuesday’s patch, I am 99% confident that pw does not break deep freeze stun. I always do instant double freeze on mossman/ first archie with thieves guild, mug, double PW, and warrior tremor. Everywhere else defiant stripping in my opinion is a waste of time.

CCs that remove Defiance won’t break the Deep Freeze. If whatever you’re fighting doesn’t have Defiance, is Deep Frozen, and you CC it again, then it will break the Deep Freeze.

Use your brain, [Stuns overwrite Stuns] so if you use the Basilisk Venom CC it will break the deep Freeze….

Thaddeus.4891:

ThyShadowPaladin.9521:

After many fractal runs, I find no need in spamming icebow 5’s tbh.
-Headshot is a SEVERE waste of DPS. Especially when running with a class that gives quickness like guardian/mesmer.. a full line of initiative gives.. like 4-5 headshots? that’s also 4-5 pistol whips in around 4-7 seconds..
-You’re looking at.. lets say 2000-3000 damage (from the 4-5 Headshots) and 80,000-100,000k+ from pistolwhips (4-5 of them).

Also as someone stated, ele Freezes, you remove defiance with PW spams for DPS, Pick up icebow, then Icebow 5 again if you want. Poof.

The thing that you missed is that you never do 4-5 H. You only need to stay in D/P for 2-3 second. Steal + Basilik Venom + 1-2 HS is really quick and after you can do the rest of the fight in D/D.

You lose some DPS during a couple of second by using D/P rather than S/P, but you’ll gain far more dps since you gonna switch to D/D very quicly. Especialy since the kind of fight when you want to double Icebow are fight against single target bosses where S/P can’t really compete in term of dps to D/D.

But at this point, the difference isn’t much really. Both method work great. It really depend which one you prefer to play and in which group.

Ok, are you serious? D/P over S/P? and you’re using D/P for “Headshot”, you do realize that S/P also has “Headshot” and can also put Basilisk venom, AND you HAVE to use steal to get that 5th pistolwhip out anyway? The damage gap is enormous either way with the same effect. even if you just do 2 Pistol whips vs 2 head shots D/P – S/P that’s looking at almost/more than 40k damage gap with the same effect. Maybe* 1-2 seconds since P/W has an animation.
Also 1s cast on basilisk venom, might as well just head shot it twice, steal to recharge initiative, and head shot again if removing defiance fast is all you aim for, but there goes your DPS. All that DPS loss just to remove defiance, makes sense right?

otome.2673:

Enko.6123:

EcoRI.9273:

unless they changed pistol whip(pw) on tuesday’s patch, I am 99% confident that pw does not break deep freeze stun. I always do instant double freeze on mossman/ first archie with thieves guild, mug, double PW, and warrior tremor. Everywhere else defiant stripping in my opinion is a waste of time.

CCs that remove Defiance won’t break the Deep Freeze. If whatever you’re fighting doesn’t have Defiance, is Deep Frozen, and you CC it again, then it will break the Deep Freeze.

Use your brain, [Stuns overwrite Stuns] so if you use the Basilisk Venom CC it will break the deep Freeze….

You’re missing the entire point of defiance.

otome.2673:

Enko.6123:

EcoRI.9273:

unless they changed pistol whip(pw) on tuesday’s patch, I am 99% confident that pw does not break deep freeze stun. I always do instant double freeze on mossman/ first archie with thieves guild, mug, double PW, and warrior tremor. Everywhere else defiant stripping in my opinion is a waste of time.

CCs that remove Defiance won’t break the Deep Freeze. If whatever you’re fighting doesn’t have Defiance, is Deep Frozen, and you CC it again, then it will break the Deep Freeze.

Use your brain, [Stuns overwrite Stuns] so if you use the Basilisk Venom CC it will break the deep Freeze….

It’ll take the defiance off first. It prevents your next CCs from doing anything. If you continue to CC after Defiance is gone, then yes, it will break the deep freeze.

You may want to check to make sure you know what you’re talking about before telling someone else to “use your brain” . ..

It takes less than two seconds to break four stacks without moving away from D/D or using any initiative, plus there is only a couple of encounters where chain freezing is actually worth while such as Shaman for skipping phases.

I don’t know why PW and headshot are being compared, PW is a stun and using it 5 times would take ~11 seconds. If you really have to strip more than four stacks then headshot for a second/third freeze is the only reliable alternative.