Guild Wars 2

Hey, thanks for the idea. My guild runs things with less than full parties just for the sake of trying. Now we can turn that into additional profit.

Well this is a great way to make profit. If you don’t like it, don’t participate in it.

The buyers get what they want and the sellers make good profit, assuming its a fair deal and everyone pays their end of the bargain.

This was going to happen eventually, and it will continue to happen because some people feel that dungeons aren’t worth the trouble (for example, Arah which can take a long time depending on the group), but still want their tokens for gear and would gladly pay gold for it.

I ran dungeons in gw1 like there was no tomorrow…but as it stands…with kicking innocent ppl to make profit…this has got to go….it’s ridiculous…there is nothing fair, admirable, free market anything to do with it. Again if they are kicking ppl to make profit BAN them indefinitely. We do NOT want those kind of ppl playing with us. Tbh we don’t want that mentality with us in rl either. PIck up that soap!

Thanks for idea, too. Brb, going to make some nice gold…

You’re saying ‘slot selling’ as if it’s a bad thing.

voidwater.2064:

Why does this bother you? You do not have to participate, it does not constrain you in any way, why do you want to restrict the freedom of others?

Don’t try to impose your vision of “proper gameplay” on everyone else.

It jacks up the price of everything on the TP, screwing most of us out of equipment and materials because we’re not unethical, amoral kitten.

How is it amoral or unethical? They have a service to provide, the buyers have gold. Seems pretty much standard business model to me.

RvLeshrac.2673:

It jacks up the price of everything on the TP, screwing most of us out of equipment and materials because we’re not unethical, amoral kitten.

This doesn’t make any sense at all.

haviz.1340:

David.4821:

Seems like you’re just mad you don’t get a easy ride because you can’t afford it. If I wanted something bad, I’d pay for it. 15g isn’t a lot.

Pretty lame, buying achievements for something you can’t do. People are mad because it will devalue dm title (though its value is already pretty low).

Speak for yourself haviz. I got my title the legit way, never got involved in any slot buying. Yet I support free market and see nothing wrong in selling slots.

Bartho.7896:

Speak for yourself haviz. I got my title the legit way, never got involved in any slot buying. Yet I support free market and see nothing wrong in selling slots.

I’m not saying you bought it. I’m saying people will buy it because they can’t complete path 4. Sorry, but that’s hardly “free market”, that’s cheating.

I said not everyone who got the title legit way is mad about the slot selling, i rlly dont care if ppl buy it, its their decision. And P4 its just a patience thing anyway, I didnt consider it anymore challenging than the other paths, just longer.

Paying for a service is cheating?
Then buying a legendary off TP is cheating too?
Or buying a portal in EB JP?
etc etc

Bartho.7896:

I said not everyone who got the title legit way is mad about the slot selling, i rlly dont care if ppl buy it, its their decision.

Paying for a service is cheating?
Then buying a legendary off TP is cheating too?
Or buying a portal in EB JP?
etc etc

It’s an achievement, something you should achieve not buy.

Equipping a Legendary is an achievement too, it gives an account medal for pete’s sake. Yet a legendary can be bought of TP, as long as legendaries are trade-able why shouldn’t dungeon slots be trade-able.

Bartho.7896:

Equipping a Legendary is an achievement too, it gives an account medal for pete’s sake. Yet a legendary can be bought of TP, as long as legendaries are trade-able why shouldn’t dungeon slots be trade-able.

Getting legendary was always a matter of time and grind. Getting some titles requires something more than killing hordes of undeads in Cursed Shore. Just check all those crying thread about path 4. You also get tokens for buying a slot. Tokens aren’t tradeable and Anet doesn’t like when you farm tokens without completing dungeon in a legit way.

There has to be a limit where you view something as free market. Would you consider bribing someone from enemy team in tournament as free market? Don’t answer that question, it’s rethorical.

Getting legendary was always a matter of time and grind. Getting some titles requires something more than killing hordes of undeads in Cursed Shore.

We both know it’s not as simple as you put it. Gift of Zhaitan is a kitten to farm without a DM team to play with.

Anet doesn’t like when you farm tokens without completing dungeon in a legit way.

Understatement of the millennium, considering the length Rob went to in order to destroy Arah3 farming.

There has to be a limit where you view something as free market.

Fair point, but I just don’t think that 60 tokens for a fair amount of dosh is going to affect the game that bad.

Iehova.9518:

We both know it’s not as simple as you put it. Gift of Zhaitan is a kitten to farm without a DM team to play with.

Okay, I guess getting bifrost might be a more difficult than rest of the legendaries but you could have done shard runs for some time during launch.

Understatement of the millennium, considering the length Rob went to in order to destroy Arah3 farming.

I remember how people were crying about Magg path in CoF. They nerf quick rewards.

haviz.1340:

Okay, I guess getting bifrost might be a more difficult than rest of the legendaries but you could have done shard runs for some time during launch.

And just about every legendary that requires gift of Zhaitan.

I remember how people were crying about Magg path in CoF. They nerf quick rewards.

I wasn’t farming dungeons back then. What happened?

And my 9-minute CoF1 runs aren’t quick at all.

Iehova.9518:

I wasn’t farming dungeons back then. What happened?

And my 9-minute CoF1 runs aren’t quick at all.

They increased difficulty few times in p2 and decreased difficulty in p1. It’s christmas time now, but later I would expect some tuning to CoF because everyone farms it.

haviz.1340:

They increased difficulty few times in p2 and decreased difficulty in p1. It’s christmas time now, but later I would expect some tuning to CoF because everyone farms it.

Rob said he’ll “touch” CoF3 because he can't find groups for it. Prepare for the apocalypse and a few weeks of undoable CoF1,2, get your gift of Balefire if you need it, etc.

Remember this is a fantasy MMO and not a capitalists wet dream.

I see no reason why dungeons should be a business opportunity outside of the tradeable loot.

Malediktus.9250:

tradeable loot.

But that’s capitalism! Everyone should just farm their own loot.

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Why do people think everything they don’t agree with needs to be “fixed”?

Because many people have no respect for anything that they don’t agree with.

RvLeshrac.2673:

It jacks up the price of everything on the TP, screwing most of us out of equipment and materials because we’re not unethical, amoral kitten.

Edit: In the following, I have a lot of fun responding.

Did you even take economics in high school? O.o

The demand of the items in question does not change. The supply of the items in question does not change. There is no inflation due to this, as there is no net increase in the amount of gold. Therefore, there are no reasons for the price of anything to go up.

Edit: Actually, you could make the argument that demand does go down due to people being geared out from these runs, in which case the price will only drop for all of you.

Regarding “unethical and amoral”, based on what standard? Yours? You think that just because you believe something, everyone else must cater to what you say because you yell “it’s bad and you’re bad!”. It’s the same excuse people have been using to try to control other people for thousands of years. If you can’t force someone to do something, you try to guilt them to do what you want.

Here it sounds like you’re angry because some other people are getting something easier than what you can get, and you’re trying to take the moral highground by saying that you’re against it because it’s “unethical and amoral”.

Sarcasmic.6741:

How is it amoral or unethical? They have a service to provide, the buyers have gold. Seems pretty much standard business model to me.

But… I said it’s unethical! You have to stop it! You don’t want to be a bad person do you?

Bartho.7896:

Paying for a service is cheating?
Then buying a legendary off TP is cheating too?
Or buying a portal in EB JP?
etc etc

It’s not cheating… it’s just amoral! You better not do it, or else I’ll mark you as a bad person!

As a farmer I am amazed people agree with this but that’s greed for you.

No matter the type of player you are or how much you are picking on Kumakichi about making it a point to show the devs yet another exploit to make money from their dungeon system, it’s still wrong.

you know that it’s wrong and that the devs never intended for the dungeon system to be used this way.

I started to add all people who I see selling spots to my block list, to make sure I never group up with them by mistake.

Because everything you don’t agree with must be an exploit and against what the devs intended right?

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Because everything you don’t agree with must be an exploit and against what the devs intended right?

Because they obviously intended people to sell spots in dungeons, right? Why not just get a npc who sells and buys tokens for cash? It would work like in gw1, prices would be driven by supply/demand.

Do you have any proof that it was their intention not to be able to sell group slots?

People ran others through instances all the time in guild wars 1 for money. Knowing that they could have put something in to stop that from happening here, but they didn’t. They choose not to prevent you from being able to sell dungeon slots.

Wasabi Kitty.8247:

Do you have any proof that it was their intention not to be able to sell group slots?

People ran others through instances all the time in guild wars 1 for money. Knowing that they could have put something in to stop that from happening here, but they didn’t. They choose not to prevent you from being able to sell dungeon slots.

They don’t run you through instance. They invite you before last boss. And please, use logic. Occam’s razor, man.

Nothing against people selling slots and whatnot, but why would you ever want the DM title if you wont be able to “uphold” the title?

I mean you might join an arah group later and know nothing about the dungeon, some DM huh?
It is like getting a champion “x” title and be killed by every hundred blades/heartseeker spammer in spvp

Giving completion achievement only for doing >50% of dungeon would be a good way to go (DC’s/rejoining party shouldn’t screw it up).

Regardless of whether we think it’s morally right to do so I think it’s more pertinent to think about whether or not it’s healthy for the community. I don’t see anyone gaining anything significant out of this issue. The player hosting the slots will likely make enemies out of those he/she used to get to the end boss only to kick them from the party. The players who were kicked will only resent other players and stop partying as openly. The players paying for the slots will have little to no knowledge of how the dungeon works and thus be incapable of grouping there effectively in the future.

Quells.2498:

Regardless of whether we think it’s morally right to do so I think it’s more pertinent to think about whether or not it’s healthy for the community. I don’t see anyone gaining anything significant out of this issue. The player hosting the slots will likely make enemies out of those he/she used to get to the end boss only to kick them from the party. The players who were kicked will only resent other players and stop partying as openly. The players paying for the slots will have little to no knowledge of how the dungeon works and thus be incapable of grouping there effectively in the future.

That’s what morals and ethics are. They don’t exist in a vacuum, they’re based on necessary restrictions of one’s actions to further the common good.

Hm, I guess you really can buy everything in this game. There’s no way to prove progress.

RvLeshrac.2673:

Quells.2498:

Regardless of whether we think it’s morally right to do so I think it’s more pertinent to think about whether or not it’s healthy for the community. I don’t see anyone gaining anything significant out of this issue. The player hosting the slots will likely make enemies out of those he/she used to get to the end boss only to kick them from the party. The players who were kicked will only resent other players and stop partying as openly. The players paying for the slots will have little to no knowledge of how the dungeon works and thus be incapable of grouping there effectively in the future.

That’s what morals and ethics are. They don’t exist in a vacuum, they’re based on necessary restrictions of one’s actions to further the common good.

You’re suggesting morality is reliant on the needs of others and that just isn’t so.

People sold dungeon slots in GW1, ANet never cared; people were profiting doing what they were good at. They changed nothing in GW2 to prevent it, and so people do the same thing; they make money doing what they are good at by selling their services to willing buyers. To me, this is working as intended and is totally acceptable by any sensible moral or ethical standard system.

It would make sense if you actually 2-3 manned entire dungeon. But when you can speed-run it with 5 guys and then invite 3-4 random guys something is bit off.

It would also make sense if the 5 people just ran that dungeon to give up 4 of the spots for money.
But since 2 people in a party are enough to kick the rest, it might be not as morally correct at the moment as it would be with a decent party system.

The most influential thing we can do is speak with our actions. I will refuse groups who do this or have level/class requirements.

After a long and hard dungeon:
Guy1: Hey man this <whatever> was hard and took us several hours and attempts to complete, but in the end it was fun.
Guy2: Yeah see ya tomorrow.
Next day in la mapchat:
Guy3: Buying <whatever>-completion for 10g.
Guy 1 sees it → Possible reaction:
1. Does not even remotly care
2. Laughs at him for being superior and goes on with his life
3. Writes bad things in the map chat
4. Writes really bad things in the map chat
5. Writes really really bad thing in the map chat and whispers him
5. Goes so mad that he writes a forum post because he can’t go on with the fact that people are solving problems not the way he did and everyone shall suffer because they don’t see the things the way he does. Probably also mad because of gay marriage, nyan-cat and WRONG toilette-paper-orientation.

Note to myself: the jellyfish boss of aquatic-fractal sure is a boring boss.

Whole purpose of completing achievements is actually doing them. If you just care about tokens you have no reason to complete harder paths.
What annoys me is that you gain nothing but just devalue legit achievements. Smart move from people selling this service though.

On the other hand though… Completing every dungeon in this game is very easy.

It becomes hard if you want to do it with finesse!

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

It would also make sense if the 5 people just ran that dungeon to give up 4 of the spots for money.
But since 2 people in a party are enough to kick the rest, it might be not as morally correct at the moment as it would be with a decent party system.

I was thinking either a coordinated group agreeing to have 3 people leave, sell those spots, and split the profit between all members or just flat out running undermanned as is possible in a few instances. People who kick randomly because they can are a problem, not necessarily the people selling spots for completion.

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

On the other hand though… Completing every dungeon in this game is very easy.

It becomes hard if you want to do it with finesse!

Tell that to people posting every day how simin is impossible

Sarcasmic.6741:

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

It would also make sense if the 5 people just ran that dungeon to give up 4 of the spots for money.
But since 2 people in a party are enough to kick the rest, it might be not as morally correct at the moment as it would be with a decent party system.

I was thinking either a coordinated group agreeing to have 3 people leave, sell those spots, and split the profit between all members or just flat out running undermanned as is possible in a few instances. People who kick randomly because they can are a problem, not necessarily the people selling spots for completion.

Which is exactly what I said, or at least wanted to say

haviz.1340:

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

On the other hand though… Completing every dungeon in this game is very easy.

It becomes hard if you want to do it with finesse!

Tell that to people posting every day how simin is impossible

Well, I did try to help in those Simin threads some time ago, but people keep complaining and do not seem to read what you type, so I stopped eventually.

this is human nature it can´t be helped….

in other games buffers classes sell buffs to other players for game currency, this is not different.

i dont trust pple so the hell i would give 15g, to they kick me right after and not do the run lol, and they can keep that cycle lol.

well but i see some problems, this is not how the dungeon system was designed to work, so Anet has to do smtg about it.

the possibility of change party members in the middle of a dungeon is not for this propose, is for help pple who get dcs, for not lost the all progress if someone leave.
not for easy money make!

and then they can kick u in a pug, to sell ur spot, wich is very sad..

Anet did a great game, is not their fault that pple try exploit every single thing in a game like they in all other MMOs.

From the “Is it okay to sell a legendary” thread, it’s apparent to me that there’s a very vocal group within our community that has no issues buying (or selling) their bragging rights. That is what mmos are about, bragging rights. So, yeah. This game is going to have issues if it doesn’t start fixing things that undermine the player experience. But no one seems to agree with me on the legendary situation…

Anyway, at first I didn’t see how selling dungeon runs is an issue. But then I realized how they were doing it. If I understand it correctly, the buyer doesn’t even go though most of the dungeon. They just come in at the end for tokens, cash, and credit.

That’s not okay to me.

Why not?
You can run any dungeon path without preparation with a random PUG, except SE path 1 and Arah path 4.

But even those require minimal effort to finish them. If you go there with 4 friends, it will become the easiest thing in the world.

It is not like anyone in this game braggs about how pro he is because he farmed enough tokens to buy a dungeon set or got the dungeon master title, because people would actually laugh at that person for thinking he did something special

SteepledHat.1345:

That’s not okay to me.

Too bad? The economy is a positive thing that allows players to do things they enjoy to get the things they want. If a commodity can be transfered (as dungeon credit can be), then the commodity will be traded.

“You shouldn’t be able to buy dungeon stuff” is really no different from “Crafters shouldn’t be able to wear anything but what they craft” or “People in WvW should only be able to use gear bought with WvW tokens”. People took their time/work/effort, transformed it into something they could trade (currency) and are exchanging it for someone else’s time/work/effort. It isn’t that people aren’t putting an investment into getting this stuff, they’re just investing their time into things that they enjoy and/or profit more from than the most direct route, on the other side of the equation people who genuinely enjoy or are good at running dungeons get to profit by selling their time and effort.

EVE Online goes with the straight up everything-is-transferable model, and it honestly works pretty well. People do what they find most fun/profitable and get to work towards their goals regardless.

EVE is a horrible game where being a crook and scamming is encouraged. So dont take it as a positive example for GW2.