Guild Wars 2

I do see the problem here, aswell as i dont…

1. I see that 4 friends can group up with 1 random and complete the path, then kick the random guy, just to sell the slot. BIG problem, i would rage so bad, if i sat through 4 hours of arah, just to get kicked

BUT… If the last guys agree’s to it, and wants to get kicked (Maybe he gets 50% of the cash, doesnt care about tokens etc.) then there is no problem. People will only join them IF they want to. No once is forcing you to join.

But i see the problem when it comes to PUG’s tho…Hope Anet finds a good solution to this, because this is going to be a huge problem if alot people starts to kick random people from the party

Homonavn.6348:

But i see the problem when it comes to PUG’s tho…Hope Anet finds a good solution to this, because this is going to be a huge problem if alot people starts to kick random people from the party

There’s already a solution: This is considered a punishable offense. Report them.

Malediktus.9250:

EVE is a horrible game where being a crook and scamming is encouraged. So dont take it as a positive example for GW2.

Oh, but wouldn’t it be fun if we could just outright gank people and take all their gold. I’d certainly have less of an issue with market players. /sarcasm

In no way would I want this game to develop the community that EVE has.

SteepledHat.1345:

In no way would I want this game to develop the community that EVE has.

Which is fine, EVE’s community is a result of having no real social regulation and it works great for them. We’re debating economic regulation here, though, and in that regards EVE is extremely successful by just letting the player economy develop on its own.

It’s because the buying of accomplishments devalues the nature of the accomplishment itself, leaving those who worked hard for said accomplishment with no extra value for their hard work. I see a lot of talk about economy but it’s irrelevant. The issue isn’t whether or not we can afford them or how our ability to afford them correlates with the monetary system. The issue is whether or not it’s okay to pay someone else to play the game for you.

Quells.2498:

It’s because the buying of accomplishments devalues the nature of the accomplishment itself, leaving those who worked hard for said accomplishment with no extra value for their hard work. I see a lot of talk about economy but it’s irrelevant. The issue isn’t whether or not we can afford them or how our ability to afford them correlates with the monetary system. The issue is whether or not it’s okay to pay someone else to play the game for you.

The only reason selling spots bothers people is it lowers that person’s own view of the things he or she has done. It’s all about self importance. I did it myself “the right way”, I should be better than you.

BUTTERBLUME.3217:

You can run any dungeon path without preparation with a random PUG, except SE path 1 and Arah path 4.

But even those require minimal effort to finish them. If you go there with 4 friends, it will become the easiest thing in the world.

It is not like anyone in this game braggs about how pro he is because he farmed enough tokens to buy a dungeon set or got the dungeon master title, because people would actually laugh at that person for thinking he did something special

You can be proud if you played all the dungeons yourself, but you have no right to think you are better than someone else.
And if you are mad/jealous at whoever buys those dungeon runs, it just shows that you think you are better than that person.

Edit: Agreed with above

I’m all for this. I like saving time by paying cash. In GW1 I always payed runners to do stuff for me that I didn’t like. I can do Arah pretty easily myself, but it takes time… now I could pay someone to join them at the endboss and get a full reward? Yes please.

What if I needed a dungeon ‘gift of X’, or want a full Arah armor set and have enough money, why not pay a runner (e.g. someone who already did the entire dungeon for you)?

Also, the more people that do this, the more competition, and the cheaper it will be. The first runners in GW1 made a killing, then prices dropped and it just became a more regular way of obtaining gold. 15g each slot is a killing now, but with competition I can’t imagine prices staying at that range.

As long as people don’t kick pugs to sell ‘slots’, there should be a system in-game to prevent that regardless if people selling slots is illegal or not.

I also probably would do this myself, just have 4 guildies and me run a dungeon, then everyone leaves but 1 person and sell the slots. Then divide the gold equally among the guild members. I don’t care if I don’t get the tokens, I mainly run dungeons for the cash anyway.

Quells.2498:

It’s because the buying of accomplishments devalues the nature of the accomplishment itself, leaving those who worked hard for said accomplishment with no extra value for their hard work. I see a lot of talk about economy but it’s irrelevant. The issue isn’t whether or not we can afford them or how our ability to afford them correlates with the monetary system. The issue is whether or not it’s okay to pay someone else to play the game for you.

The economy is simply a system that transfers work. People buying a legendary or dungeon adds aren’t getting around putting in X amount of work, they’re just doing something they enjoy instead of the stuff that leads directly to the legendary. They put in the work, they turn the work into currency, and they trade that currency for the fruits of someone else’s work. The beauty of a specialized economy like that is everyone gets to do what they are good at and/or enjoy, but they get to still have the things they want.

“People buying dungeon adds aren’t putting in real work to get their stuff!” is just like saying “If you go to work and buy shoes instead of making shoes yourself, you don’t deserve shoes!”. Leave the shoemaking to shoemakers, leave the dungeon running to dungeon runners, do what you’re good at (crafting, PvP, farming Orr all day, playing the market) and then convert your input into whatever output you want.

For that matter, why not combine the two complaints we’ve heard in this thread: If you’re really good at running dungeons but don’t want to craft, explore, PvP, or gamble for precursors, what is wrong with supplying dungeon runs for currency until you have enough to buy a legendary?

Bonus example: Say you want Bolt so you go farm sparks for charged lodestones. But by the time you have 50 charged lodestones you made enough money from random other crap that dropped to buy the other 50. Heinous act of work avoidance if you buy those lodestones instead of hand-farming them? Where do you draw the line?

Malediktus.9250:

Gold shouldnt be able to buy you success. If you are too bad to beat a dungeon, you dont deserve the rewards no matter what.

Found another seller, look screenshot from gw2lfg

the rewards are cosmetic…….why does this bother you again? are you mad because somebody is getting a better looking shirt then you faster? lol

Me and many others want this game to be skill-based, not work-based. If you can’t do something answer should be get better and not farm harder.
I want to show-off my skill, not wealth. Pretty much whole PvE is already about wealth so is it too much to ask that something stays skill-based?

And by the way, having played GW1, I can assure you that this is not like in GW1. In GW1 you actually need some skills to pull it off because you are forced to do it with non-full team. In GW2 you just play as usually and get more rewards with very little extra effort.

Wethospu.6437:

Me and many others want this game to be skill-based, not work-based. If you can’t do something answer should be get better and not farm harder.
I want to show-off my skill, not wealth. Pretty much whole PvE is already about wealth so is it too much to ask that something stays skill-based?

And by the way, having played GW1, I can assure you that this is not like in GW1. In GW1 you actually need some skills to pull it off because you are forced to do it with non-full team. In GW2 you just play as usually and get more rewards with very little extra effort.

All I hear on these forums is the same stuff. People insult me for wanting to distinguish myself from the rest of the playerbase. Do I consider myself better than other players because I’ve done X dungeon? No. Do I consider is a sign of my ability as a player? Yes. Do I think it shows my commitment to the game and my dedication to becoming a stronger player? Yes.

It’s the same situation as selling legendaries imo. They were supposed to show your commitment to the game, your experience with the game, and your time with the game. They don’t now. You can just buy one of the TP. I mean, they can buy the dungeon diving title and their legendary weapon. What’s next? World completion too?

There should be a way of distinguishing players in the playerbase. Something to work towards. A destination. You want to go through that transformation from newbie to vet. You want something to show that you’ve gotten there. Something new players can look forward to and vets can be proud of. But in GW2, you just buy everything with cash.

All that’s safe are the SPvP titles, the world completion star, and the fractal weapons. Then again, I’m sure people are selling those too, somehow.

Wethospu.6437:

Me and many others want this game to be skill-based, not work-based. If you can’t do something answer should be get better and not farm harder.
I want to show-off my skill, not wealth. Pretty much whole PvE is already about wealth so is it too much to ask that something stays skill-based?

And by the way, having played GW1, I can assure you that this is not like in GW1. In GW1 you actually need some skills to pull it off because you are forced to do it with non-full team. In GW2 you just play as usually and get more rewards with very little extra effort.

I would like it that way too, but even this being my first MMO, the content seems casual. You can do it just like that, no preparation, no training needed for anything.

Anet does not design the game that way, so I doubt it will ever be.

By the way, meleed Lupicus today, all 3 phases, watched your video beforehand to get the animations straight and some motivation aswell.

That guy who soloed Giganticus Lupicus is gonna have a field day once he starts dungeon running…

Charming Rogue.8071:

I’m all for this. I like saving time by paying cash. In GW1 I always payed runners to do stuff for me that I didn’t like. I can do Arah pretty easily myself, but it takes time… now I could pay someone to join them at the endboss and get a full reward? Yes please.

What if I needed a dungeon ‘gift of X’, or want a full Arah armor set and have enough money, why not pay a runner (e.g. someone who already did the entire dungeon for you)?

Also, the more people that do this, the more competition, and the cheaper it will be. The first runners in GW1 made a killing, then prices dropped and it just became a more regular way of obtaining gold. 15g each slot is a killing now, but with competition I can’t imagine prices staying at that range.

Yes, make another way of obtaining something that at least took some skill into gold buying possibility. Don’t compare it to GW1, you couldn’t run dungeon with the whole team and then invite leechers.

Kain Francois.4328:

That guy who soloed Giganticus Lupicus is gonna have a field day once he starts dungeon running…

Doubtful, considering what he said in this topic.

Me and many others want this game to be skill-based, not work-based. If you can’t do something answer should be get better and not farm harder.
I want to show-off my skill, not wealth. Pretty much whole PvE is already about wealth so is it too much to ask that something stays skill-based?

SteepledHat.1345:

It’s the same situation as selling legendaries imo. They were supposed to show your commitment to the game, your experience with the game, and your time with the game. They don’t now.

They haven’t, ever, unless you start drawing arbitrary lines. I fail to see the difference between buying a Legendary and buying a precursor instead of getting one out of the mystic forge, or buying a Legendary vs. buying Orichalcum to make one instead of hand-harvesting it off of nodes. Regardless of whether you bought it or farmed it yourself, it represents the same amount of work/effort input.

At some point you’re just saying “Everything on this side of the line is legitimate work towards a Legendary, but everything on the other side isn’t.” It is all legitimate work towards a Legendary, that is exactly the purpose of a currency, it allows you to condense all that time and effort into a tradable asset.

Wethospu.6437:

Giving completion achievement only for doing >50% of dungeon would be a good way to go (DC’s/rejoining party shouldn’t screw it up).

Agreed, but I would actually put the requirement on 100%. If you want the achievement you should have to participate throughout the entire run. Otherwise you could have players switch in to do the hardest part for you and then you switch back and still get the achievement.

The only thing immoral here would be be kicking randomers. Its perfectly fine to sell slots for a dungeon when you are running with a party where everyone agrees to selling the dungeon slots.

The buyers want to save time (5m instead of 2hrs) to farm tokens and the runners want the gold (spending 2 hrs). Its an ok trade off.

Not really, because farming gold is mindless in most cases and that 2h dungeon run can take 5h or more (or even fail apart completly) with an unskilled group.

SteepledHat.1345:

That is what mmos are about, bragging rights.

I thought MMOs were mostly about enjoying mechanically fun game content with friends or random strangers online. Titles and loot hierarchies are just there to provide a little structure and a feeling of progression for those who care about them.

I personally have no interest in bragging rights. I don’t think the primary purpose of an MMO is to serve as an exhibition of artificial scarcity.

Malediktus.9250:

Not really, because farming gold is mindless in most cases and that 2h dungeon run can take 5h or more (or even fail apart completly) with an unskilled group.

Which is why dungeon running, a higher-skill “job”, if you will, is valued at a higher per-minute/hour “wage”. The market works all this stuff out on its own, given enough supply and demand.

Tulisin.6945:

Malediktus.9250:

Not really, because farming gold is mindless in most cases and that 2h dungeon run can take 5h or more (or even fail apart completly) with an unskilled group.

Which is why dungeon running, a higher-skill “job”, if you will, is valued at a higher per-minute/hour “wage”. The market works all this stuff out on its own, given enough supply and demand.

I keep hearing the market. Thats a silly argument in a fantasy MMO. Most of the dungeon rewards are untradeable, because obviously the devs didnt intend them to be marketed.

Malediktus.9250:

I keep hearing the market. Thats a silly argument in a fantasy MMO.

A fantasy MMO that used its largescale high-volume economy as a major selling point?

Most of the dungeon rewards are untradeable, because obviously the devs didnt intend them to be marketed.

Arguing developer intent is a slippery slope that unilaterally declares that things are the way they are because that is the best and intended way. The exact same argument supports the existence of dungeon slot selling, legendary selling, etc.

Malediktus.9250:

Tulisin.6945:

Malediktus.9250:

Not really, because farming gold is mindless in most cases and that 2h dungeon run can take 5h or more (or even fail apart completly) with an unskilled group.

Which is why dungeon running, a higher-skill “job”, if you will, is valued at a higher per-minute/hour “wage”. The market works all this stuff out on its own, given enough supply and demand.

I keep hearing the market. Thats a silly argument in a fantasy MMO. Most of the dungeon rewards are untradeable, because obviously the devs didnt intend them to be marketed.

Apparently this is your first MMO, because it’s not a silly argument. Almost every MMO I’ve ever played that had content which required higher skilled/organized groups, whether it was high level quests, raid content, character bound loot drops, etc. eventually all turned to services where people sold their time to randoms to get them drops, quest completions, etc.

“Fantasy MMO” has nothing to do with it, it’s a video game, and in every online video game there are always people willing to pay for content/items that are hard to get by yourself, but easy for top guilds/organized groups to get and “farm” as a service. It’s a simple time vs money exchange. Someone can either roll the dice and possibly be subjected to wasting 5 hours trying to complete a dungeon path or possibly not complete it at all. Instead they choose to farm an easy dungeon like CoF which nets you 5g for a 1-1-1-2 run which a pug can run in under an hour, and then use it to pay a organized group to run them through a hard dungeon that they normally wouldn’t be able to do.

I run 100% guild/friend groups, 95% of the people I run with have no problems running any path in the game in a short amount of time and then dropping group to sell 4 spots and then splitting the gold. What pugs find hard, most organized groups find easy. It takes us 10 minutes to run SE1, 25 minutes for Arah 3, and 50 minutes for Arah 4 which are typical paths for either DM title or Arah tokens that people ask for. If people want to pay 5g-15g per spot for either tokens or DM title, then I’m happy and they’re apparently happy since they’re willing to pay. Everyone in my group makes a good amount of gold per hour since most of us don’t need tokens anymore unless we’re rolling alts.

This is a service, at the end of the day I get more gph then other farm methods, the person who buys the slot gets whatever they are looking for, and no one cares what some whiner on the forum thinks. That’s how currency works, that’s how the market works, not some fake roleplay fantasy MMO “market” like you seem to think, but any market whether it’s in real life or in a game, which is simply an exchange of time and money by both parties.

Maybe ANet should license dungeon runners. Potential buyers could check to see if the seller is licensed, and have piece of mind. One substantiated complaint of kicking someone, lose your license.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Maybe ANet should license dungeon runners. Potential buyers could check to see if the seller is licensed, and have piece of mind. One substantiated complaint of kicking someone, lose your license.

ANet probably isn’t going to do that, but an enterprising player could certainly create a bonding service for dungeon runners. Just have to find a trusted intermediary like the people who do the off-TP Legendary sales. Tax evasion by mail trading adds up on >1000g transactions, afterall.

this is so gw1 i really don’t mind it. actually i kinda like it:)

Actually, as previously states, it is not like in GW1. In GW1 you actually need to complete content under-manned.

As long as they didn’t kick party members on purpose for that spot I don’t see the problem. Which idiot would be paying 15g for that dungeon if you could also just do it in a good party? If you do want to give so much money for a spot then ok why not? It’s their own dumbness..

Oooh great more ideas for me to make money! Thanks OP

bartrentenaar.8674:

Which idiot would be paying 15g for that dungeon if you could also just do it in a good party? If you do want to give so much money for a spot then ok why not? It’s their own dumbness..

Price is all about supply and demand, though. 15g is perfectly reasonable if the person can make 15g faster than they could complete the dungeon themselves. While that is a high bar as it stands, the market dictates that it’ll continue to balance out until price hits equilibrium. If people are paying 15g but the work isn’t “worth that much” (IE, there are people willing to do it cheaper), more dungeon runners will join the suppliers and compete with eachother until the price drops.

It is easy to make the mistake that, because a certain amount of money seems like a lot to one person, it is a lot to everyone. If you’re pulling in >50g/hr, paying someone else to run dungeons for you certainly seems like a better proposition than if you’re only pulling in 3-4g/hr.

Hi,

I was going to gw2lfg in order to see if I could find a team to do some dungeons, and I read this :

Arah selling service. Selling slots for p4. Simin is dead, join for last boss and get achievement+tokens. 20g per person. 2 slots left. Brought to you by guild PR, the original Arah sellers..

Is this allowed ?

note : since simin is a completely bugged boss, this business is probably very lucrative for those who master the bugs needed to kill her through the bugs that prevent killing her ^^

It’s definitely allowed.

It’s also disgusting and everyone in their right mind should block the players of this “PR” guild.

Eowin Of Rohan.2619:

note : since simin is a completely bugged boss, this business is probably very lucrative for those who master the bugs needed to kill her through the bugs that prevent killing her ^^

Completely bugged boss? Master bugs? What in gods name are you talking about?

Personally will not be engaging services like these.

Does make me curious how did they get those “free slots” though…. /Rhetoricalquestion

mosspit.8936:

Does make me curious how did they get those “free slots” though…. /Rhetoricalquestion

Why is it rhetorical? Guild/Friends running legitly path 4 until last boss isn’t conceivable?

Good lord. Who in their right mind would spend 20 gold for a single run?! Getting the daily exp path tokens is niece, but it isn’t worth the arm and leg it costs!

haviz.1340:

mosspit.8936:

Does make me curious how did they get those “free slots” though…. /Rhetoricalquestion

Why is it rhetorical? Guild/Friends running legitly path 4 until last boss isn’t conceivable?

More likely to have kicked a payer out of the team, earn 20g per moron who pays.

It’s a clever business.

haviz.1340:

mosspit.8936:

Does make me curious how did they get those “free slots” though…. /Rhetoricalquestion

Why is it rhetorical? Guild/Friends running legitly path 4 until last boss isn’t conceivable?

Saddly in this kind of world we live in, the more likely case is that some poor blokes got DAS BÜT. Some people are just sick like that. I hope they don’t make a copper.

Rika.7249:

More likely to have kicked a payer out of the team, earn 20g per moron who pays.

It’s a clever business.

Then kicked player should report them so anet might ban them nicely. It’s not clever when you risk a ban for kicking players before last boss.

This should be fixed, no tokens or silver if you didnt take part the whole dungeon.

haviz : unfortunately, and for a reason beyond my comprehension, when you leave (or get kicked out of) a group, the next map change (there will be one because you go back to Cursed Shore) will make the party chat disappear.
And, as far as I know, GW2’s friend list doesn’t have a list of the people you played with during the day, like GW1’s FL had.

So, you may not remember exactly the names of the guys (especially if kick request is confirmed fast enough so you didn’t note the name of the guy who requested). IG report is impossible, and mail report is hard.

But we are not sure that those “PR” guys kicked poor pugs for this. “bought to you by PR guild” may mean that 5 of them have done the dungeon, 3 left and 5 share the money. But in doubt, I’ll never set foot in a dungeon with people having a “PR” tag.

Edit : malediktus : I don’t think it’s a soo good idea. Sometimes people leave (or get a DC) before an end boss. It is nice to be able to replace them. If there is no reward for the new guy, how will we find a new guy ?
I see 2 ways in which your idea could be modified to be cool :
a) if the guy that was here before was kicked while still being online and in the dungeon
b) in other cases the new guy could have for example half of the reward

Malediktus.9250:

This should be fixed, no tokens or silver if you didnt take part the whole dungeon.

You mean no achievement, because people don’t do it for tokens/silver, the reason is their inability to complete that path. Leave rewards as they are. Sometimes you’re forced to kick someone and you’d have to repeat from 0 because no one would join.

Eowin Of Rohan.2619:

haviz : unfortunately, and for a reason beyond my comprehension, when you leave (or get kicked out of) a group, the next map change (there will be one because you go back to Cursed Shore) will make the party chat disappear.
And, as far as I know, GW2’s friend list doesn’t have a list of the people you played with during the day, like GW1’s FL had.

So, you may not remember exactly the names of the guys (especially if kick request is confirmed fast enough so you didn’t note the name of the guy who requested). IG report is impossible, and mail report is hard.

You are correct, that’s why whenever I pug and got at least 2 people with same tag, I make a screenshot with simple party ui.

screenshots are a very wise choice.

Did any of the people complaining here even play GW1? Providing running services for areas and instances was pretty lucrative and a lot of people paid for them. People are lazy and want achievements, if they have money what’s the problem in them paying for it? inb4 “boohoo i had to complete it myself, they should as well!”.

I don’t see how you can have a problem with this, assuming that the method being used is legitimate (i.e. no hacks/exploits, no kicking pugs). Doesn’t have a negative impact on anyone. Helps the dungeon runners make more money, and provides a service to paying customer(s) who need it. I’ve often considered doing something similar with friends but on easier paths, just to help people level up alts, as dungeons provide a fair amount of EXP.

I will agree however, that 20g is pretty ridiculous. I would expect there are some people out there who would pay that, though.

Well, looks like you didn’t. Because in GW1 you can’t swap people mid-instance making running much harder than normal playing (which is how you can do it in GW2).

Wethospu.6437:

Well, looks like you didn’t. Because in GW1 you can’t swap people mid-instance making running much harder than normal playing (which is how you can do it in GW2).

True, but some paths were designed to be doable with only 5 people (CoE, CoF3, Arah1, partially Arah4).

haviz.1340:

mosspit.8936:

Does make me curious how did they get those “free slots” though…. /Rhetoricalquestion

Why is it rhetorical? Guild/Friends running legitly path 4 until last boss isn’t conceivable?

It is rhetorical because I know how it can be done. Considering that dungeons can be solo’ed (and I have done so to certain extents just for the fun of it), what I concieve as possible is not really the issue here.

The people providing the said service might be doing it the proper way. And there might be others that purchase these kind of services. However, on the other hand, I do not wish to fall into a situation where I get kicked from the last boss. If the service gets too… popular, it can possibly be a legitimate concern.

Interesting idea, I can’t say I would ever pay for something like this simply because it seems a bit on the shady side, not to mention the cost is insanely high IMO. It has a lot of room for abuse from 2 people starting a group and kicking people in order to get the slots. To be honest it actually keeps me from even doing pug’s for Arah knowing that it would be a possibility if this takes off. However I’m a free market person so good luck to those who want to start a business doing this, but I hope it fails because it has some major downsides.