Proposed GW2Dungeons Record Community Meeting

Proposed GW2Dungeons Record Community Meeting

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Zui.9245

Zui.9245

Note to participants: see my most recent post regarding a change of date/

It’s been awhile since the last community meeting, and a good number of things regarding instanced content have changed. As such, I propose a new community meeting. Here’s my proposed agenda. Please feel free to suggest additional agenda items, or even suggest that some of my proposed items do not need to be discussed.

1. Fractal records.

Due to the massive overhaul of fractals, a fractal record reset (and record overhaul) is needed, which, due to past discussions, requires a community meeting. I see two viable ways to create a new system:

(a) Every fractal scale is record-eligible. This would allow for anyone to compete, regardless of AR. However, it would also likely lead to people doing multiple scale records for the same shards.

(b) Only the highest fractal scale for each fractal shard is record-eligible. This would effectively restrict competition to only those with heart of thorns and high AR. As such, it would go against past precedent when fractal records were at level 49, due to the AR to compete at level 50 being considered prohibitively expensive. But of course we can go against precedent, and this would prevent a group from say, doing every Mai Trin shard and posting records for each scale.

2. Legendaries in sub-80 dungeons.

With the introduced scaling changes, legendaries are not being downscaled as they once were. As such, having a legendary weapon can increase damage by 10+% in some dungeons. Do we prohibit legendaries from being used in records, or do we leave it as-is?

On one hand, prohibiting legendaries would allow the competition to be more egalitarian, just like prohibiting gem store items. After all, it requires a considerable amount of gold and time to obtain a legendary, which is a barrier to entry that the ruleset has historically tried to minimize.

On the other hand, those with legendaries would have make and use lower tier items, and it would be impossible to verify no legendaries were used unless more rigorous video requirements were put in place (which slightly goes against precedent of the system being based on trust, since there are numerous ways that someone could cheat).

3. Raid records.

Implementing raid records makes logical sense, but we’ll still need a meeting to decide how these should be set up. Some questions that need to be answered are:

(a) Should records be full-wing, specific events inside a wing, or both? If events, should all events be considered, or only those that grant legendary insights at their completion, and LI-only, should Trio be excluded because it’s a timegate which can only be sped up by killing Narerlla faster?

(b) Should low-man raid records be considered, or only full 10 man records?

4. Boss records.

Should the record ruleset be expanded to include boss records (e.g. Lupicus), and if so, what should the rules be?

5. Solo/Duo Record Ruleset (reg. consumables)

In one of the solo records awhile back, there was a discussion regarding this, and it seems like there’s still some differences of opinion regarding these. Should a split solo/duo ruleset exist that fully aligns with the trio+ ruleset? Should we even discuss this?


For attendees, players/guilds that hold and have previously held records (up to 5 per guild) are encouraged to attend and vote. I say “players”, because obviously some of the guilds that currently hold records aren’t around anymore, but the players are all still around and in a different guild. Furthermore, it’d be nice to have players who hold/have held solo/duo records attend if we are going to address #4 and #5.

If you’re interested in attending, please shoot me a PM.

As for a time, I tentatively propose Sunday, May 29th at 5:00 PM UTC (i.e. 17:00 UTC).

(edited by Zui.9245)

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Posted by: Absurdo.8309

Absurdo.8309

Great initiative. I think a robust speed running community is a good thing. I enjoy watching the speed runs, and I think the tactics generally percolate to pug runs as well.

Here’s my opinion as a one-time participant. I only plan to spectate for the immediate future, so please discount my opinion accordingly.

1. I always thought the fractal 49 rule versus 50 was a bit odd. Over time, anyone seriously interested in speed running would get ascended gear.

I think an all fractal approach would be a bit unwieldy to administer. The top shard for each fractal would be much easier. An egalitarian compromise could be any fractal in tier 4.

2. I didn’t know this was a thing. I guess it would be up to the stakeholders to decide this one. If it was me personally, I would be upset if I had to craft a 100 gold ascended weapon to replace my 2000 gold legendary.

3. I think per boss records are the most logical. You could additionally throw in per wing records, if there was interest. But I think most players and spectators would be more interested in seeing the speed run of a particular boss.

I minor point, but you’ll probably need a uniform rule for when the timer starts. I could see the timer starting when someone enters the arena, when someone aggros the boss, or when the timer actually starts in game. I think when the timer actually starts is easier to administer, even if it allows some set up time on VG and GOR.

I am personally not interested in seeing any of the pre-events, but I guess that would be up to the stake holders to decide.

I don’t think trio should be excluded, even if it is mostly a time gate.

I do think low mans should be included.

4. I think boss records are a subset of their particular dungeon, so I don’t think records for them are necessary. But up to the stakeholders I suppose.

5. I’m not sure what the current norm is regarding consumables in solos and duos, but I’ll assume they use them a lot. Personally, I enjoy seeing all the creative ways players use consumables in dungeons, and I think solos and duos are the right place to show them off.

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Posted by: bladex.9502

bladex.9502

So much +1 to the legendaries thing.
Its really annoying to have a huge disadvantage compared to other people because you don’t have a specific legendary, especially in solo/duo records where fights can take a little longer and you lose up to 10-20 seconds on a boss fight just because of bugged scaling.

I feel like its a lot less bad to have to spend +/- 100 gold on an ascended weapon because you aren’t allowed to use your legendary, than having to cough up 3000 gold to compete

Another thing I’d like to propose is to have a look at certain CC consumables.
While they are easy to use and not that expensive to get, it kills off a lot of possible cool breakbar tactics, since its usually faster to just throw an Ettin gunk or break 70% of the bar with 1 plank hit.

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Posted by: Dro.1047

Dro.1047

2. Legendaries in sub-80 dungeons.

Perfect gears and food are even more expensive than a legendary. As I said on reddit about this subject, if you guys want a real equality for the competition, just allow only blue gear like that everyone will be on the same step…

Abe’s answer : http://imgur.com/orm6Dqb

(edited by Dro.1047)

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Posted by: Amicable Pugs.4503

Amicable Pugs.4503

2. Legendaries in sub-80 dungeons.

Perfect gears and food are even more expensive than a legendary. As I said on reddit about this subject, if you guys want a real equality for the competition, just allow only blue gear like that everyone will be on the same step…

Abe’s answer : http://imgur.com/orm6Dqb

Infusions don’t make a huge difference except on long boss solos and nowhere near 10%.
You can easily overcome infusions with just better rotations/RNG while 10% from legendaries is just plain broken.
You’ll never have perfect equality but something near it can be achived easily.

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Posted by: Amicable Pugs.4503

Amicable Pugs.4503

Another thing I’d like to propose is to have a look at certain CC consumables.
While they are easy to use and not that expensive to get, it kills off a lot of possible cool breakbar tactics, since its usually faster to just throw an Ettin gunk or break 70% of the bar with 1 plank hit.

Haven’t seen a video yet where Etting Gunk or Planks get used effectively.
Most of the time breaking without them is faster + better.
Look at Roul’s break rotation for example, bar breaks exactly mid meteor + overload.
Plus, if you wanna try banning certain cons then you’ll end up with a discussion on how other cons remove “possible cool tactics” too.

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Posted by: bladex.9502

bladex.9502

Another thing I’d like to propose is to have a look at certain CC consumables.
While they are easy to use and not that expensive to get, it kills off a lot of possible cool breakbar tactics, since its usually faster to just throw an Ettin gunk or break 70% of the bar with 1 plank hit.

Haven’t seen a video yet where Etting Gunk or Planks get used effectively.
Most of the time breaking without them is faster + better.
Look at Roul’s break rotation for example, bar breaks exactly mid meteor + overload.
Plus, if you wanna try banning certain cons then you’ll end up with a discussion on how other cons remove “possible cool tactics” too.

The thing with Roul’s breakbar rotation is that it requires you to precast gale, which prevents you from precasting other things which can be a reasonable damage loss.
There is also no way to efficiently break the bar a second time without losing tons of DPS, while breaking it a second time with consumables takes like 1 second.

If you combine CC consumables with soft CC from weapon skills/aftershock its definitely faster than breaking it with gale, the reason Roul uses this rota is because he hates consumables just as much as I do

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Posted by: TheSouL.1098

TheSouL.1098

If you compere gw2 to rl Sports then spending lots of momey for the best suite or car is normal… So i dont know why having the best gear is something wrong

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Posted by: Roul.3205

Roul.3205

Another thing I’d like to propose is to have a look at certain CC consumables.
While they are easy to use and not that expensive to get, it kills off a lot of possible cool breakbar tactics, since its usually faster to just throw an Ettin gunk or break 70% of the bar with 1 plank hit.

Haven’t seen a video yet where Etting Gunk or Planks get used effectively.
Most of the time breaking without them is faster + better.
Look at Roul’s break rotation for example, bar breaks exactly mid meteor + overload.
Plus, if you wanna try banning certain cons then you’ll end up with a discussion on how other cons remove “possible cool tactics” too.

The thing with Roul’s breakbar rotation is that it requires you to precast gale, which prevents you from precasting other things which can be a reasonable damage loss.
There is also no way to efficiently break the bar a second time without losing tons of DPS, while breaking it a second time with consumables takes like 1 second.

If you combine CC consumables with soft CC from weapon skills/aftershock its definitely faster than breaking it with gale, the reason Roul uses this rota is because he hates consumables just as much as I do

to be fair, spamming out consums barely makes the fight faster for an elementalist. you miss atleast 3 autoattacks and one lavafont when using 1 plank and 2-3 rocks, and end up either casting 5 sec meteorshower while breakbar is down, or just spamming out lavafonts. Not to mention that often the best choice is just to burst the boss down instead of breaking the bar again, as it interrupts your rotation and messes up your cds.

But I have to agree, for classes like warrior or thief it may actually be a thing to first use your own cc (head butt for example) and finish the bar with a plank. But let’s be honest, ele is far better than these 2 classes in most situations, I personally think an ele’s dps with perfect burst on breakbar still is higher than a rock throwing thief with 2 breakbars.

Other than that, maybe a record reset for ac p1-3 in solo would be kinda nice to revive the competition there. Even with breakbar, my spiderkills usually are about 30 seconds – 1 minute slower (no legy), but maybe I’m just missing the perfect way to kill it.

(edited by Roul.3205)

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Posted by: Dro.1047

Dro.1047

If you compere gw2 to rl Sports then spending lots of momey for the best suite or car is normal… So i dont know why having the best gear is something wrong

I totally agree

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Posted by: Roul.3205

Roul.3205

If you compere gw2 to rl Sports then spending lots of momey for the best suite or car is normal… So i dont know why having the best gear is something wrong

atleast having the best suite or car is no unintended mechanic :/ talking about legies not scaling, ascended gear is obviously okay, but legies just aren’t supposed to be the best gear, they just are there to look good.

(edited by Roul.3205)

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Posted by: bladex.9502

bladex.9502

If you compere gw2 to rl Sports then spending lots of momey for the best suite or car is normal… So i dont know why having the best gear is something wrong

If you compare it to RL sports, exploiting the (probably) bugged legendary downscaling is the same as using doping to get an unfair advantage over others, which is banned from pretty much every type of sports

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Posted by: Zui.9245

Zui.9245

Dear Moderation Staff,

Can we get this moved back to the “Fractals, Dungeons & Raids” and raids subfourm?

This is not an in-game event. It’s a meeting that will occur on a voice chat software. The only ‘in-game" portion of this is that it effects some players in-game, when they’re doing Fractals, Dungeons & Raids records.

This is not an open community event, either. Nor is it something that anyone who visits this subfourm will be able to participate in, since one needs to have actually participated in records to attend.

It’s exclusively referencing the records ruleset for Fractals, Dungeons & Raids.

As such, it belongs in the Fractals, Dungeons & Raids sub-fourm, not here, where no one relevant will ever see it again.

As a note, I wouldn’t have to appeal to you guys in the text of this thread if there were some way to contact you directly, perhaps in regards to the “we moved your thread” notice.

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Posted by: Absurdo.8309

Absurdo.8309

Dear Moderation Staff,

Can we get this moved back to the “Fractals, Dungeons & Raids” and raids subfourm?

This is not an in-game event. It’s a meeting that will occur on a voice chat software. The only ‘in-game" portion of this is that it effects some players in-game, when they’re doing Fractals, Dungeons & Raids records.

This is not an open community event, either. Nor is it something that anyone who visits this subfourm will be able to participate in, since one needs to have actually participated in records to attend.

It’s exclusively referencing the records ruleset for Fractals, Dungeons & Raids.

As such, it belongs in the Fractals, Dungeons & Raids sub-fourm, not here, where no one relevant will ever see it again.

As a note, I wouldn’t have to appeal to you guys in the text of this thread if there were some way to contact you directly, perhaps in regards to the “we moved your thread” notice.

Agreed 100% – I thought is was strange that this was moved to this forum, given that it is not an in game event, and that it is tied to fractals, dungeons, and raids. The intended audience for this thread is not in this sub forum.

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Posted by: Zui.9245

Zui.9245

And we’re back in business!

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Posted by: Zui.9245

Zui.9245

Confirmed attending:

[rT]
[hC]
[DnT]
[LOD]
[LN]
[Vs]
[geek]
[KING]
[SC]

Contactable guilds/players asked to attend:

[LaLa]
[FIRE]
[Yoga]

Confirmed not attending:

[qT]

(edited by Zui.9245)

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Posted by: AlcatraZ.3780

AlcatraZ.3780

Well i think every1 can afford ascended equip. but not every1 can afford a whole set of legendary weapons. Further more Legendaries should deal the same dmg like the same weapon on asc which means they messed up the downscaling. So if legendaries are allowed you should allow several outmap skips too. Because they arent intended by anet either.

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Posted by: Rising Dusk.2408

Rising Dusk.2408

Agreed 100% – I thought is was strange that this was moved to this forum, given that it is not an in game event, and that it is tied to fractals, dungeons, and raids. The intended audience for this thread is not in this sub forum.

Yeah sorry about that. Seeing things like “community” and “meeting” in the same thread title set off alarms for the mods to move it to In-Game Events. I let them know about it after Zui brought it to my attention, though, and got it moved back. It shouldn’t get moved around any more at this point.

Also, working on communicating to the team responsible for scaling to determine what can be done to fix the legendary downscaling bug. The hardest part for me to gauge right now is what priority they consider the bug, but I’ll keep you all informed.

[VZ] Valor Zeal – Stormbluff Isle – Looking for steady, casual-friendly NA raiders!

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Posted by: Kishlin.6271

Kishlin.6271

I really appreciate the initiative, a lot of things have changed since the last ruleset. I’ll try to be as concise as possible explaining my own opinion.

Regarding Fractals, I think we should only consider highest level for each environment.
First of all, this will limit the number of possible records to the number of different maps, there will be a lot more competition, if we allow the 100 levels we won’t see a previous time being taken down every now and then. Also, highest tier fractals are the more interesting maps, strategy wise and group comp wise. And I don’t think getting enough AR is that much of a pain in the kitten when you’re motivated and determined doing a record. Hence I will go for the (b) option.

Regarding legendaries, I agree that doing a record is an investment and I don’t mind spending hundreds of golds for new ascended items, runes, sigils, food, or whatever. But I don’t like the RL Sport comparison for the reason that, in real life, you get sponsors. As far as I’m concerned nobody ever paid my sacrificed force sigils or full strength/scholar runes sets. I also like the doping comparison. Anyway, if you have legendaries you can afford a 100g ascended weapon, but I feel like 3000g is too much of an investment just to take down a record.
Of course, the simplest solution would be to hope that the bug will be corrected soon. No harms meant but, I’ve been playing Gw2 for a long time and I sort of lost hope to see many bugs ever corrected. Lupicus has tons of bugs since the day he was implemented and they are still there (invisible Frienzy Blast and stuff). Only a small amount of instances are concerned (the first 5/6 dungeons), and we are the only ones who care about this bug. Regarding how much Anet likes us (ice-bow-nerf-announcement-while-dropping-my-mic-like-a-thug here I come) I don’t think they will fix it any time soon.
Hence, I think we should forbid legendaries and ask the players to just put the cursor on their weapon on the PoVs. Okay we won’t be able to know for players who don’t have PoV but most of us do in records, and the record system has always been based on trust right?

Regarding raids now. I think both full wing and one boss clear are interesting. Just to see the team comp adjustments that are made to take down a full wing as fast as possible (forbidding switching between bosses, obviously). I have no opinion regarding low man parties, except maybe they should be considered the same way as low man dungeons records.

Finally, I think duo/solo rules are fine as they are. Allowing tons of interesting consumables while forbidding stuff like the executioner axe.

(edited by Kishlin.6271)

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Posted by: Lou.7824

Lou.7824

I agree with almost everything Kishlin just said exept for legendaries.

To me, it doesn’t really change anything. Base of a record are tactics, nothing else. And if I remember good (maybe I’m wrong, haven’t play for a while), runs presented to the community with same tactics than the previous records, but just a little bit faster (I mean seconds) because of more DPS on bosses have not been approved. When ascended stuff appeared, we didn’t create a debate concerning equality problems between people playing with full ascended stuff and people still playing with exotic stuff, to me it’s basically the same thing.

DPS is a thing, but tactics are more than that.

Shayna Vandella – Oh My Gosh Virtual Squirrels [Vs]

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Posted by: Dro.1047

Dro.1047

Further more Legendaries should deal the same dmg like the same weapon on asc which means they messed up the downscaling. So if legendaries are allowed you should allow several outmap skips too. Because they arent intended by anet either.

and compressing 80% of an aoe in a spot isn’t intended aswell but people still use it in restricted record, plz add this to the meeting

(edited by Dro.1047)

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Posted by: BlackDragon.3752

BlackDragon.3752

Is gw2 special now? Legendarys are bugged atm, so they are the best gear easy as that. If you want to improve a record by dps only it’s not a good record anyways since you want new tactics which matter anyways more than the dps. In every mmo there is the best gear somehow and you need to get it → no reason to ban the best gear.

Yui [SC] (Kirasia)

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Posted by: NikeEU.7690

NikeEU.7690

Since a ban on legendaries couldn’t be enforced even if it was a rule, there is no sense in having it as a rule.

[DnT]::Nike::
www.twitch.tv/nike_dnt

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Posted by: Lord Kuru.3685

Lord Kuru.3685

Also, working on communicating to the team responsible for scaling to determine what can be done to fix the legendary downscaling bug. The hardest part for me to gauge right now is what priority they consider the bug, but I’ll keep you all informed.

They need to just make all dungeons level 80 and upscale those who are low level.

  • Downscaling screws up stats for level 80 players.
  • Upscaling screws up stats for lower level players.
  • Level 80 players are by far the majority and almost literally no one plays dungeons at lower levels.

So why are they still using downscaling?

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Posted by: Masta.4510

Masta.4510

Hey all, I forwarded the information to officers for the KING

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Posted by: Zui.9245

Zui.9245

Meeting is being pushed back to Sunday, June 5 (17:00 UTC). There seems to have been a miscommunication regarding which day this is taking place, and as such a lot of people aren’t on.

I’ve created a Telegram group to better organize communication for the next meeting: https://telegram.me/joinchat/Bw0fRgcD1qUZE3u5jriJSQ

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Posted by: Aleksandar.1364

Aleksandar.1364

Ehm.. I have something important to report because most of world record just abuse of that.. And it’s freaking me out !

Can we say stop to harpy’s feathers ? Once for all please, it make no sense ! Perma stealth WTF !
And pleaaaase omg.. That Spiky fruit ! Nerf it.. Perma kd !

Thanks to you !

Member of Keep Running [Kr]

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Posted by: DanScott.4839

DanScott.4839

Hey Zui,
Mudblood Dan from LaLa here, I’d be more than happy to attend, but LaLa is no longer a thing. More than happy to share my thoughts on Sunday, though.
o/

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Posted by: Zui.9245

Zui.9245

Just as a reminder for everyone, the meeting will occur tomorrow!

Hope to see you all there!

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Posted by: Zui.9245

Zui.9245

Meeting complete!

Players in attendance:

Abe
Amira
Ashlee
Axias
kitten y
Flames
Ghosti
Goku
Kishlin
MadOne
Nico
Nightmare
Panz
Pentakiller
Sangi
Yui
Zui

Guilds voting:

KING
DnT
geek
LN
rT
SC
Vs

1. Fractal Records

Unanimous vote to reset. Unanimous vote for only the highest scale for each individual shard to be record-eligible.

Reset and record table changes will be made in accordance with the vote.

2. Records with (previously) bugged medical pack consumables (e.g. HotW P1.

Guilds in favor of resetting these records: DnT, LN, geek, Vs, rT, SC
Guilds not in favor: KING

Records will be reset.

3. Legendary weapons in sub-80 dungeons.

Unanimous vote to allow. No changes will be made to the rule set based on this vote.

4. Raid records

Unanimous vote in favor of supporting raid records for entire wings, and for events within raids. The timer for full wing records will begin when the first player moves their character or uses a skill (the same as dungeon and fractal records). The timer on events which have their own timer will begin when that timer first triggers. If there is no independent timer for an event, the timer will start at first hit.

Unanimous vote in favor of supporting low man raid records.

Swapping characters is prohibited in raid records. SC, rT, LN, and Vs voted for strictly disallowing character swapping. No guilds voted for strictly allowing character swapping. KING, geek, and DnT voted for a split rule set, where one set would allow character swapping, and the other set would not allow character swapping.

5. Boss records (Fractal and dungeon bosses. Not raid bosses)

Boss record framework will not be developed at this time. Geek was in favor, but DnT, KING, LN, Vs, rT, and SC voted no.

6. Solo/Duo Record Ruleset Split Regarding Consumables

Unanimous vote to leave the solo/duo record rule set as it is. No changes will be made.

(edited by Zui.9245)

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Posted by: Ashlee.8409

Ashlee.8409

5. Boss records

Boss record framework will not be developed at this time. Geek was in favor, but DnT, KING, LN, Vs, rT, and SC voted no.

to avoid misunderstandings: dungeon bosses are meant here, raidbosses are allowed.

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Posted by: Amicable Pugs.4503

Amicable Pugs.4503

Meeting complete!

Players in attendance:

Abe
Amira
Ashlee
Axias
kitten y
Flames
Ghosti
Goku
Kishlin
MadOne
Nico
Nightmare
Panz
Pentakiller
Sangi
Yui
Zui

Guilds voting:

KING
DnT
geek
LN
rT
SC
Vs

rip my name

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Posted by: Wethospu.6437

Wethospu.6437

Is there a list of records which should be reseted or simply all? Is there a list for raid events which should be included?

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Posted by: Roul.3205

Roul.3205

Meeting complete!

Players in attendance:

Abe
Amira
Ashlee
Axias
kitten y
Flames
Ghosti
Goku
Kishlin
MadOne
Nico
Nightmare
Panz
Pentakiller
Sangi
Yui
Zui

Guilds voting:

KING
DnT
geek
LN
rT
SC
Vs

rip my name

I always have to laugh so much when I read kitten y Moa

(edited by Roul.3205)

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Posted by: Wethospu.6437

Wethospu.6437

1: Old fractals record entries moved to Fractals (Old). Created new entries for fractals. I considered different paths to be different shards. For example Mossman and Bloomhunger are separated. Is this correct?

2: HotWP1 solo was reseted. Not sure if there were other cases but will reset if detected.

4: Added raid entries.

Spirit Vale:

  • Full clear
  • Vale Guardian
  • Spectral Rifts
  • Spirit Race
  • Cemetery
  • Gorseval
  • Bandits
  • Sabetha

Salvation Pass:

  • Full clear
  • Slothasor
  • Bandit Trio
  • Bandits
  • Matthias

I will add support to 6-10 players soon.

Proposed GW2Dungeons Record Community Meeting

in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Posted by: Wethospu.6437

Wethospu.6437

The changes are live. Feel free to point out any issues / typos.

Biggest rule changes:

  • This excludes raid events and bosses which have in-game timers. In those cases the in-game timer is used instead.
  • Full raid clears and dungeons: timer stops when the final boss has been killed.
  • Fractal records must be at the highest possible scale.

(edited by Wethospu.6437)