Guild Wars 2

So today’s patch was clearly meant for PvP, yet we have all these other aspects of the game that aren’t PvP. So my question is this:

Is ArenaNet’s intent to ever balance the game with respect to PvE(raids, fractals, etc.)?

Because as it stands now, unless you’re playing a desired class/spec for raids you’re not getting into a group. Either that or you’re going to have an unreasonably hard time beating a boss if you are let in.

Uhh… what? I feel like a lot of this patch was directly targeting PVE.

Burnzerker nerf. Thief buffs.

Only thing that won’t have a decent build in raids now is Guardian.

Thief either. Dps alone is not enough.
They have butchered burnzerker. So usless expenisve gear now

I’ve been saying for awhile now that they would address the Scorched Earth hitting multiple times per tick with this balance patch. I wasn’t exactly sure what form that change would take, but the one they chose seems easiest for them so I’m not surprised. Just looking at the changes it should be more on-par with other condition classes like the Engineer, so it’s very likely not totally butchered.

Thief will still be bad. No changes to venoms either, so it’ll probably continue being “almost good enough” for general use there. With the big nerf to Alacrity, I’m curious to see what ideal strategies for Gorseval will be now.

They always go from to OP to nothingness. So orher easy changes were possible regarding burnzerkers… nownthey are useless

Yea, I knew Burnzerk would get nerfed, but I thought they would just make Scorched Earth one fire field to prevent the double ticks.

However, from the way I’m reading it now, not only does this change prevent double ticks, but this will probably negate a lot of burns if you have multiple people using Scorched Earth on the same target.

Dahkeus.8243:

However, from the way I’m reading it now, not only does this change prevent double ticks, but this will probably negate a lot of burns if you have multiple people using Scorched Earth on the same target.

It doesn’t have problems like that for multiple people using it. It’s per-use of the skill, I just think the wording was difficult for them communicating it clearly in the patch notes.

Pandabro.8743:

Uhh… what? I feel like a lot of this patch was directly targeting PVE.

Burnzerker nerf. Thief buffs.

Only thing that won’t have a decent build in raids now is Guardian.

That’s two things for PvE. Yes, a lot of these changes affected the PvE side of things, but if you read these notes, they’re all clearly aimed at PvP.

I really do want to know if we’re ever getting a balance patch for PvE or if they’re ever going to wise-up and split the specs(like they already are. e.g. when you enter HotM your build, gear, and almost your entire set-up is reset from Tyria).

iroh.2871:

Pandabro.8743:

Uhh… what? I feel like a lot of this patch was directly targeting PVE.

Burnzerker nerf. Thief buffs.

Only thing that won’t have a decent build in raids now is Guardian.

That’s two things for PvE. Yes, a lot of these changes affected the PvE side of things, but if you read these notes, they’re all clearly aimed at PvP.

I really do want to know if we’re ever getting a balance patch for PvE or if they’re ever going to wise-up and split the specs(like they already are. e.g. when you enter HotM your build, gear, and almost your entire set-up is reset from Tyria).

…stop looking at things only the way you want it to look like.

Plenty of the balance change are PvE-based.
- Mesmer: Both alacrity and feedback change is a big stuff for PvE
- Thief: Giant buff to their damage for PvE.
- Revenant: Most of the changes to sword is based on PvE
- Ranger: Buff for condi-ranger which is definitely not a PvP thing.
- Warrior: Nerf for condi-warr which is totally a PvE thing.

The reason a lot of changes hits pvp is because pvp is more diverse. Like, condition negation is a real thing in PvP but not in pve, as well as other thing like sustaining, etc etc. Meanwhile PvE “balance” is usually just related to dealing damage.

Ryn.6459:

Thief either. Dps alone is not enough.
They have butchered burnzerker. So usless expenisve gear now

It’s not as bad as butchered, it’s been put into a more reasonable spot.

I was doubtful that anet would actually balance around PvE but I have to admit this update addressed nearly every issue except for guardian and slick shoes.

randomguy.1283:

nearly every issue except for guardian

… yeah, they ONLY forgot that. Such a small issue.
:<

randomguy.1283:

I was doubtful that anet would actually balance around PvE but I have to admit this update addressed nearly every issue except for guardian and slick shoes.

What about the 3 or 4 other specs a revenant can play? Power-rev is still the only viable spec for PvE(raids). What about giving the thief utility so they’re actually desired to take instead them being an “acceptable replacement”?

A true PvE balance patch isn’t simply damage modification. It takes the various things a class is supposedly good at and compares how they fair to the other classes that do the same thing. For example, Mesmers are really good at being dodge-tanks(don’t play a Mesmer so I don’t know how accurate that statement is. Just go with it for the sake of the example, though.). Another class that has a lot of dodging and evade-fields is the theif. If these classes were truly balanced, the thief would be just as desired to take along for that role(they’d also need a buff to their party utility but that’s another topic). Note how I didn’t say the thief would be better. That would be stupid. One class is always going to outshine the others for a particular skill or role. The trick is by how much that class outshines the others. A balanced PvE system has it sitting only slightly better, not insanely better.

iroh.2871:

randomguy.1283:

I was doubtful that anet would actually balance around PvE but I have to admit this update addressed nearly every issue except for guardian and slick shoes.

What about the 3 or 4 other specs a revenant can play? Power-rev is still the only viable spec for PvE(raids). What about giving the thief utility so they’re actually desired to take instead them being an “acceptable replacement”?

A true PvE balance patch isn’t simply damage modification. It takes the various things a class is supposedly good at and compares how they fair to the other classes that do the same thing. For example, Mesmers are really good at being dodge-tanks(don’t play a Mesmer so I don’t know how accurate that statement is. Just go with it for the sake of the example, though.). Another class that has a lot of dodging and evade-fields is the theif. If these classes were truly balanced, the thief would be just as desired to take along for that role(they’d also need a buff to their party utility but that’s another topic). Note how I didn’t say the thief would be better. That would be stupid. One class is always going to outshine the others for a particular skill or role. The trick is by how much that class outshines the others. A balanced PvE system has it sitting only slightly better, not insanely better.

Well, if you’re talking about viability, thief and healer Herald is actually viable (first VG kill has thief, and my second VG kill is with a healer Herald). But if you’re talking about optimal or meta, that’s an entirely different topic.

And aren’t burnzerkers got nerfed because they outshone other classes?

Anway, yeah, for high-end PvE, damage will still be everything. Do you know why Chrono, despite the nerf, is still the best tank? Because Chrono can still increase the team’s damage output while tanking (via alacrity, quickness, etc). Guardian makes a good tank, however while tanking Guard don’t help much with the team offensive capability, because he boosted their defensive capability instead (aegis, perma protection, etc). The same goes why Druid is a more optimal healer than Tempest, despite them both being viable, Druid can increase the team’s damage while still healing effectively.

So “damage modification” doesn’t necessarily just “add more damage”, it could be “buff that helps team deal more damage” =D Imagine if Guardian gives 1 might each time he’kitten by an enemy, he’ll be a tank people could want.

Ryn.6459:

They always go from to OP to nothingness. So orher easy changes were possible regarding burnzerkers… nownthey are useless

How are they useless now? The Scorched Earth change makes it sound like the dps will now be reasonable instead of stupid strong.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ryn.6459:

They always go from to OP to nothingness. So orher easy changes were possible regarding burnzerkers… nownthey are useless

How are they useless now? The Scorched Earth change makes it sound like the dps will now be reasonable instead of stupid strong.

I would agree. It seems to me like they brought the damage in line with other condi classes. They were too strong before. I know it was nice to have but it was obviously too much.

Ppl usually take conclusions on what they are used to rather than the whole pictured.
Everyone got used to ele top god tier dps class. Once any nerf happens to ele dps (icebow for example) everyone says that ele is now trash and bla bla while it still is top tier.
Same for example for mesmer. Everyone got used to mesmer being trash/unused salvo nich cases. Once mesmer get in the picture, nerf nerf nerf.

Whats even worse is that anet listen to this/doesnt moderate against this qqing bs.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ryn.6459:

They always go from to OP to nothingness. So orher easy changes were possible regarding burnzerkers… nownthey are useless

How are they useless now? The Scorched Earth change makes it sound like the dps will now be reasonable instead of stupid strong.

on the golem, i am doing half the damage of what was doing prepatch. Zerker is not a contest against engi anymore. Nor agaisnt an ele. RIP.
Condi ranger seems pretty good tho.

Ryn.6459:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ryn.6459:

They always go from to OP to nothingness. So orher easy changes were possible regarding burnzerkers… nownthey are useless

How are they useless now? The Scorched Earth change makes it sound like the dps will now be reasonable instead of stupid strong.

Zerker is not a contest against engi anymore. Nor agaisnt an ele. RIP.

Look what effort make warr and what effort engi and how they rewarded… compare both rotations. And ele pay his dmg for squishy..

When each player in a raid enters combat, their boon prioritization will be locked in based on the composition of the subgroup they are currently in. That prioritization will not change until the player has left combat, even if their subgroup composition changes while they are in combat.

this nerfs mesmer and revenant at the same time

BloodyNine.7504:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ryn.6459:

They always go from to OP to nothingness. So orher easy changes were possible regarding burnzerkers… nownthey are useless

How are they useless now? The Scorched Earth change makes it sound like the dps will now be reasonable instead of stupid strong.

I would agree. It seems to me like they brought the damage in line with other condi classes. They were too strong before. I know it was nice to have but it was obviously too much.

Judging on some dps tests that have been done condi warrior has been nerfed so far as to not be worth using.

David.5974:

Ryn.6459:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ryn.6459:

They always go from to OP to nothingness. So orher easy changes were possible regarding burnzerkers… nownthey are useless

How are they useless now? The Scorched Earth change makes it sound like the dps will now be reasonable instead of stupid strong.

Zerker is not a contest against engi anymore. Nor agaisnt an ele. RIP.

Look what effort make warr and what effort engi and how they rewarded… compare both rotations. And ele pay his dmg for squishy..

Engie gets constantly rewarded nowadays. At least Ele is an extremely Glassy Cannon. Their damage is fine because you so much as breath on them and they die.

I agree the class withe the more complex rotaton should be rewarded with the higher dps, np on that. But that has nothing to regarding making a build not viable anymore.

randomguy.1283:

BloodyNine.7504:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Ryn.6459:

They always go from to OP to nothingness. So orher easy changes were possible regarding burnzerkers… nownthey are useless

How are they useless now? The Scorched Earth change makes it sound like the dps will now be reasonable instead of stupid strong.

I would agree. It seems to me like they brought the damage in line with other condi classes. They were too strong before. I know it was nice to have but it was obviously too much.

Judging on some dps tests that have been done condi warrior has been nerfed so far as to not be worth using.

Could you link them. I reserve my judment on the issue until I can see some fact. IMO they fixed a exploit and Condi Zerker were too strong in term of dps so the nerf was a good thing. But like other said, if they nerfed it too hard, it’s not better. Actual number would be appreciate.

LegACy.1296:

So “damage modification” doesn’t necessarily just “add more damage”, it could be “buff that helps team deal more damage” =D Imagine if Guardian gives 1 might each time he’kitten by an enemy, he’ll be a tank people could want.

Of course the end-goal in mind is damage. It’s always damage for every game mode. But how Anet has gone about “balancing” is terrible. E.g. blanket buffs to AA damage for theif or blanket nerfs to alacrity without any amount of nuance. Why did they only move the damage from rev-sword AA to 1 or 2 other skills? Why not nerf the sword entirely and float some more damage to another spec and add some more utility to another and round out the class as a whole? Instead they just kept it in the same pigeon-whole as before—> a boring AA machine that now uses 1 or 2 other weapon skills, sometimes. Same thing with the thief. We’ve needed more party utility from the class for years but the only change we get with this “major” patch is a flat dps buff? Be a little more creative and add some dps while buffing more of its utility skills and traits. This way you’re still buffing the dps output but it’s more nuanced and might take a little more thought to accomplish the best dps than “spam 1,” which seems to be the way Anet wants us to play.

The AA buff for thief is actually a pretty wise one. If they buffed a weapon skill, this could easily break PvP since thieves can burn ini to spam a skill with no cooldown (historical examples are Heartseeker and Pistol Whip).

As long as the AA isn’t so strong that it’s no longer a dps increase to use weapon skills, you grant thieves an overall DPS boost without making them a pure AA spam, which seems to be the case.

They cpuld have also tried to add more dps by boosting traits, but there’s already a lot of pure dps increase from a lot of traits and that gets messy when you consider builds. The DA, and DD line are pretty some much the best PvP lines, so adding a dps boost here not only increases their sustained damage, but also makes the spike damage bigger, which is pretty big as it is now. The CS trait line is already bloated with about a damage boost on pretty much every trait taken. Adding damage to any other trait line wouldn’t matter since it wouldn’t create a net higher dps for any other build due to the opportunity cost of dropping a trait line unless they just added a completely ridiculous amount of damage, which would cause other issues.

Honestly, this was the most balanced way they could have added DPS to thieves without rebuilding the profession and/or breaking the class in PvP.

Dahkeus.8243:

Honestly, this was the most balanced way they could have added DPS to thieves without rebuilding the profession and/or breaking the class in PvP.

This is the problem. If they would just split the specs, balancing would be so much better and easier. They wouldn’t have to worry about “will changing this break PvP?” That problem would simply evaporate! Yet for some reason they refuse to do this and are even getting rid of splits that already exist. Reddit Reply

iroh.2871:

Dahkeus.8243:

Honestly, this was the most balanced way they could have added DPS to thieves without rebuilding the profession and/or breaking the class in PvP.

This is the problem. If they would just split the specs, balancing would be so much better and easier. They wouldn’t have to worry about “will changing this break PvP?” That problem would simply evaporate! Yet for some reason they refuse to do this and are even getting rid of splits that already exist. Reddit Reply

Yea, but that would also make the game more complicated and not in a “ooh, this skill has an additional effect under certain circumstances” interesting sort of way. Instead it’s a “Ok, I learn not just this skill, but also the slightly modified version for PvP” dull kind of way.

There’s a reasons that devs in games try really hard to avoid doing this sort of thing. It raises the learning curve for new players and just adds complexity without a fun factor that probably won’t satiate players complaining about balance anyways.

Dahkeus.8243:

There’s a reasons that devs in games try really hard to avoid doing this sort of thing. It raises the learning curve for new players and just adds complexity without a fun factor that probably won’t satiate players complaining about balance anyways.

“It’s too confusing” is an awful excuse not to make this improvement. When you enter PvP for the first time you already have to re-spec, learn about the gearing system, and figure out a multitude of other things that come with the mode. IIRC there’s even a tutorial when you first enter HotM(I could be wrong. I hardly PvP and it’s been a looooong time since I entered it for the first time). Adding one extra thing a player needs to learn just to ease and improve the balancing is an extremely small price to pay. So “it might confuse some players” isn’t a valid reason. At all…

Rising Dusk.2408:

Dahkeus.8243:

However, from the way I’m reading it now, not only does this change prevent double ticks, but this will probably negate a lot of burns if you have multiple people using Scorched Earth on the same target.

It doesn’t have problems like that for multiple people using it. It’s per-use of the skill, I just think the wording was difficult for them communicating it clearly in the patch notes.

It actually does suffer this. The target has an ICD after being hit by “ANY” Scorched Earth.

Which is rather dumb. Because now people will just stack Ele’s and abuse Meteor Shower. Let’s put an ICD per target on that too while we are at it….

Dahkeus.8243:

iroh.2871:

Dahkeus.8243:

Honestly, this was the most balanced way they could have added DPS to thieves without rebuilding the profession and/or breaking the class in PvP.

This is the problem. If they would just split the specs, balancing would be so much better and easier. They wouldn’t have to worry about “will changing this break PvP?” That problem would simply evaporate! Yet for some reason they refuse to do this and are even getting rid of splits that already exist. Reddit Reply

Yea, but that would also make the game more complicated and not in a “ooh, this skill has an additional effect under certain circumstances” interesting sort of way. Instead it’s a “Ok, I learn not just this skill, but also the slightly modified version for PvP” dull kind of way.

There’s a reasons that devs in games try really hard to avoid doing this sort of thing. It raises the learning curve for new players and just adds complexity without a fun factor that probably won’t satiate players complaining about balance anyways.

Even discounting the fact that the pve/pvp split was a key feature of GW1 and wasn’t complicated at all, this is a pretty poor argument because currently in GW2 some skills actually are different in pvp vs pve. For example, from the recent Jan 26 patch notes:

Gale: The cooldown of this skill has been reduced from 50 seconds to 40 seconds. This attack is now unblockable. The skill facts have been updated to correctly display the knockdown duration difference between PvP (1 second) and PvE (2 seconds).

I admit this isn’t the same a a full pvp/pve skill split because the skill is very similar between the two game modes. But many skills just don’t exist in PvP at all, so would you say it would be substantially more complicated if some skills were split between pve/pvp and then the names were changed? This is identical to just adding new skills that aren’t allowed in PvP.

Not to mention that there are plenty of other important aspects of the game which are in fact extremely confusing for new players and are poorly explained within the game. Combo fields and finishers are probably the worst offender since they exist from the very start of the game and are integral to the combat system yet receive no in-game explanation other than telling you at level 22 that using a finisher in a field does something extra. There are plenty of other mechanics that receive a poor explanation, like agony resist and break bars and even crafting, so even if you accept that an explicit pvp/pve skill split does in fact make make the game more complicated, it is tough to say that the additional complications are really any change from the norm.

Anyone knows wether Anet is aware of the shared icd in CoR and Scorched fire fields?

Dinosaurs.8674:

Dahkeus.8243:

Yea, but that would also make the game more complicated and not in a “ooh, this skill has an additional effect under certain circumstances” interesting sort of way. Instead it’s a “Ok, I learn not just this skill, but also the slightly modified version for PvP” dull kind of way.

There’s a reasons that devs in games try really hard to avoid doing this sort of thing. It raises the learning curve for new players and just adds complexity without a fun factor that probably won’t satiate players complaining about balance anyways.

Even discounting the fact that the pve/pvp split was a key feature of GW1 and wasn’t complicated at all, this is a pretty poor argument because currently in GW2 some skills actually are different in pvp vs pve. For example, from the recent Jan 26 patch notes:

Gale: The cooldown of this skill has been reduced from 50 seconds to 40 seconds. This attack is now unblockable. The skill facts have been updated to correctly display the knockdown duration difference between PvP (1 second) and PvE (2 seconds).

I admit this isn’t the same a a full pvp/pve skill split because the skill is very similar between the two game modes. But many skills just don’t exist in PvP at all, so would you say it would be substantially more complicated if some skills were split between pve/pvp and then the names were changed? This is identical to just adding new skills that aren’t allowed in PvP.

Not to mention that there are plenty of other important aspects of the game which are in fact extremely confusing for new players and are poorly explained within the game. Combo fields and finishers are probably the worst offender since they exist from the very start of the game and are integral to the combat system yet receive no in-game explanation other than telling you at level 22 that using a finisher in a field does something extra. There are plenty of other mechanics that receive a poor explanation, like agony resist and break bars and even crafting, so even if you accept that an explicit pvp/pve skill split does in fact make make the game more complicated, it is tough to say that the additional complications are really any change from the norm.

He gets it. Please do something about this ArenaNet.

Ryn.6459:

Anyone knows wether Anet is aware of the shared icd in CoR and Scorched fire fields?

Fairly sure they’re aware but I’ll make a point of bringing it up in my next report.

Follow-Up on CoR/SE Bug:

Gaile Gray.6029:

A message from the Skills Team:

“Hey fellow Tyrians! We’d like to let you know the skills team is working on changes Coalescence of Ruin and Scorched Earth so that different players using those skills on a foe will each be able to hit. The current behavior was an unintended consequence introduced with the 1/26 build.

We’re implementing some background changes now and going to test them out as soon as our internal builds allow. It may still be some time before we’re able to get these changes to live, but they’re coming!"

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Skill-Changes-Coalescence-of-Ruin-and-Scorched-Earth/

Saw it XD. It is a relief tbh.