Guild Wars 2

I know that putting points into Valor is generally discouraged for most speedclear Guardian builds, but since the line includes critical damage, and under an optimal group environment, crit chance is going to be near maxed, I would like to know how 30% critical damage compares to the other % based damaged sources that can be picked up in the Radiance and Honor lines.

It still sucks. Those 30 points produce something like a 10% increase in total damage, plusminus a bit. Sacrificing any other damage sources (radiance) or all support improvements (honor, virtues) is a bad idea.

Base damage modifiers > Crit damage. Plus, you lose out on a lot of other stuff if you go in to valour over radiance/honour/virtues.

If a 10% total increase in damage sucks, then logically, all the base mods for weapons ‘suck’ as well.

The only thing that makes Valor undesirable for the damage increase is that you need all 30 in the line to get it full benefit, while you can get away with 10 or 20 trait points in other respective lines for comparable mods. Based on the available traits, the economy for raising damage with this isn’t high. It only makes sense to go this route if you are creating a build around the traits in Valour or find that the traits in Valour suit whatever you are going to do.

I wouldn’t recommend it unless your finding your group has more support than they need.

10% for 30 trait points, which offer nothing really useful, definitely suck.

€: Just to compare:
Zeal offers ~13% damage for 10 points.
Radiance offers ~25% for 25 points, plus the possibility of spamming your blinds at trash.
Virtues also offer ~25% damage for 25 points, plus the amazing support stuff.
Honor, in the end, is not so great damage-wise (though roughly on the level of Valor), but has much better support.

Valor offers the least dps and least support per trait point spent.. so people optimise the trait spread by using the more efficient radiance and zeal trees, then grabbing a huge amount of support from a minimum of 10 virtue. After that you gain so little dps from valor that more support via virtue 20 or honor 10 are far better choices overall.

oh quick random question, semi-related.. when you crit, is the crit damge % calcuated based on the damage AFTER any given modifiers?

That shouldn’t be relevant since the order of the terms does not matter in a multiplication.

How about 25 points? I had been thinking of some builds along the lines of:
10.15.25.10.10
0.25.25.10.10

I haven’t personally tested these, just some fast ideas.

CptAurellian.9537:

That shouldn’t be relevant since the order of the terms does not matter in a multiplication.

@OP – for me, the valor line is all or nothing.

maybe 10 points could be worth it for certain builds but again it’s nice to have and i’d rather spend them elsewhere if not going full 30 (usually for WvW/PvP as well). i try to pick up crit damage from food and/or gear in that case.

TheKillerAngel.3596:

How about 25 points? I had been thinking of some builds along the lines of:
10.15.25.10.10
0.25.25.10.10

I haven’t personally tested these, just some fast ideas.

10/25/10/0/25 is the only viable build with points in honor and it doesn’t bring you vigor.

TheKillerAngel.3596:

How about 25 points? I had been thinking of some builds along the lines of:
10.15.25.10.10
0.25.25.10.10

I haven’t personally tested these, just some fast ideas.

The problem with crit damage is that if u are in berserker/assassin armour, u will already have a tonn of crit damage and that makes it very invaluable as compared to damage modifiers. Crit damage adds additively(i.e +10% crit damage , original multiplier is +230% , new multiplier is +240%). Damage modifiers increases multiplicatively (ie +10% damage , original multplier is +140% , new multiplier is +154%)

As for the 2 builts u mentioned, I can easily move 10 points away from valor and put it into radiance (25) or Zeal (10) for a built with higher damage. This is because 10% damage modifier > +10% crit damage.

If u refer to the table in this link ( http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit ), u can see how increasing crit damage will affect your average damage by comparing the values between the cell.

Eg (using the table in the link)

1) No crit damage armour case

100% crit chance and 0% crit damage, average damage increase over base is 1.5.
100% crit chance and 30% crit damage, average damage increase over base is 1.8.
Overall increase from 0% crit damage to 30% crit damage is 1.8/1.5=1.2x (increase of 20%)
This is assuming u are wearing armour without crit damage and 30% crit damage only increases ur damage by 20%.

2) 70% crit damage armour
100% crit chance and 70% crit damage , average damage increase over base is 2.2
100% crit chance and 100% crit damage , average damage increase over base is 2.5
Damage increase= 2.5/2.2 = 1.13666
In the case of full zerker/assasin armour/trinkets , 30% crit damage only increases ur damage by 13.67%.

Hence why crit damage is not as good as damage modifier.

Anicetus.1253:

TheKillerAngel.3596:

How about 25 points? I had been thinking of some builds along the lines of:
10.15.25.10.10
0.25.25.10.10

I haven’t personally tested these, just some fast ideas.

10/25/10/0/25 is the only viable build with points in honor and it doesn’t bring you vigor.

Valor, Dub, Valor

TheKillerAngel.3596:

How about 25 points? I had been thinking of some builds along the lines of:
10.15.25.10.10
0.25.25.10.10

I haven’t personally tested these, just some fast ideas.

If you are talking about a damage build, the first step is 10 in Zeal. Then depending on your weapon, at least 15 in Radiance, 30 if you are 1hand (unless you think your team gives you enough fury). From there, I would say you can start thinking about adding to Valour.

Frankly, I find that if you are playing with a good group, Guardian support is actually very overated. For a pure damage build in that case, I would get 10/30/20/5/5 with a S/F. (Yes, I think the vigor on crit and boon procs from Virtues is too good to pass up, Yes I think Unscathed defender is too unreliable.).

10/25/0/0/25 alone is more damage than that.

@CptAurellian: Errr… the traitline is so worthless it doesn’t deserve that i know it’s name

Maybe, but this isn’t a competition so …. as I said, I don’t like how undependable Unscathed is, I like Vigor and I never claimed it was the best DPS. That’s where my choices and style lead me. I don’t know what kind of player the OP is. Maybe he thinks like me, maybe your suggestion would be more appropriate. Feel free to suggest whatever REAL DPS builds you want to when people ask. They can make their own decisions.

Let me specify: Even 10/25/0/0/25 without unscathed contender is more damage.

And honestly, stop that ‘everyone can decide for his own’ kitten, i never forced anyone to play anything, unless they want to run dungeons with me. I just tell people their builds are bad when they are bad.

I’d just like to say a big ‘Thank You’ to all these guys who say a DPS Guardian is the right direction. I switched from a 0/0/30/30/10 to a 10/25/0/10/25 and was worried I’d be dropping dead all the time, but thank god that wasn’t the case! Blinds, condition removals, utilities and excellent DPS….Man…

Thank you.

I wouldn’t use valor if I wanted to do a speed run. Valor is very good for spvp and wvw though.

To the guys good at math, in regards to damage modifiers how does the potential stacks of might you get with 30 in valor add up realistically in comparison to damage increase traits like fiery wrath etc?

Also, do you guys factor in the mace trait since it gives +5% damage? And wait before you continue, yea I know mace is a bit fail. But my question is only in regards to the mathematics.

Aza.2105:

To the guys good at math, in regards to damage modifiers how does the potential stacks of might you get with 30 in valor add up realistically in comparison to damage increase traits like fiery wrath etc?

It sucks, like the whole line. 1 might is equivalent to something between 1.5 (in a very bad group) and 1.0 % more damage, so you’ll need a lot to surpass FW. You’ll never block as much, especially since it should be your aim to block as rarely as possible to keep UC up. But even if you don’t care for UC, I hardly see how I could block 7-10 attacks in 20 seconds in PvE consistently.

CptAurellian.9537:

Aza.2105:

To the guys good at math, in regards to damage modifiers how does the potential stacks of might you get with 30 in valor add up realistically in comparison to damage increase traits like fiery wrath etc?

It sucks, like the whole line. 1 might is equivalent to something between 1.5 (in a very bad group) and 1.0 % more damage, so you’ll need a lot to surpass FW. You’ll never block as much, especially since it should be your aim to block as rarely as possible to keep UC up. But even if you don’t care for UC, I hardly see how I could block 7-10 attacks in 20 seconds in PvE consistently.

That sounds very underwhelming. Anyhow, thanks man.

I wish we could move this to the guardian forums. Better yet, have a sticky with factual information regarding damage modifiers vs crit damage, might. And how each weapon compare dps wise with a overall rating of their usefulness in pve and pvp.

If you guys aren’t using valor you need to learn to play.

Dps builds are fine but what good is dps if you and your whole group are dead.

This build is an all around great build for everything and it uses 30 in valor. Now mind you the guys gear makes it a powerhouse but for new guards with garbage gear, this build is a must for pve and wvw.

As you progress and get better gear you can switch to more dps builds and rely on gear but this build is amazing if played right and being a new guardian with crap gear, I was going toe to toe with top geared players in wvw and forcing them to flee my presence with such fear they only stood against in 4v1 or 5v1 situations and it took them 3 or 4 minutes to kill me…

People who say valor is useless in pve are tools.. They only care about dps numbers and don’t care if they die 50 times in a dungeon because they will just nerd rage quit and blame the group for sucking.. Dps is over rated and there is no enrage timers so wtf is the point… L2P

vaalix.4913:

Dps is over rated and there is no enrage timers so wtf is the point… L2P

Think this man is onto something, we need enrage timers.

Seriously I feel bad for every poor soul who I hear has spent 3 hours not killing simin.

This would fix that issue in very short order.

(oh and if it wasn’t clear, dps is clearly needed if there are parties that spend more then 3 hours on a boss and can’t kill it)

Edit: tried watching that video…. could not take it seriously once they quoted their “attack” stat

Well the molten bosses have enrage stacks when the opposite hits certain hp thresholds. But yeah nothing to force dps because the stacks are just removed by hits regardless of damage. I do think the enrage mechanic on the molten duo is a good idea though.

Also i cringed so hard at that video. Thanks for the permanent creased forehead.

spoj.9672:

Well the molten bosses have enrage stacks when the opposite hits certain hp thresholds. But yeah nothing to force dps because the stacks are just removed by hits regardless of damage. I do think the enrage mechanic on the molten duo is a good idea though.

Yeah, makes you pay more attention.

And to keep the theme (or to keep using exsisting code instead of creating new timers) it could be that bosses all get enrage stacks once every 10 seconds. 25 stacks lets them spam some random total party wipe attack. 250 seconds > just over 4 minutes. Seeing as most organised groups will kill most bosses in under 1 minute, there’s nothing unreasonable here.

Aetherpath final boss also has an enrage timer thats reset by killing adds next to it. Nice idea in theory, shame its ruined by the rest of the the path and is dependant on adds spawning.

Some of the newer content does have some nice mechanics/boss fights. But they always ruin it overall by adding stupid puzzles and gimmicky extra mechanics which just annoy people.

Once again, It resets. We need the classic non-resetable timer “kill it in X time or you’re going to wipe”

That would of been one of the best ways to fix TAFU back when it was around. I doubt groups would have had any problems with the tree if they were capable of killing Vevina in under 4 minutes (considering the lost time due to stealths and chaos storms)

Is that YouTube video a troll attempt?

As much as I would like proper inrage timers Im not sure its a good idea. The game is a casual game. As much as we all hate it being tailored for casual players, I think enrage timers should be possible to reset for the more casual player base. But there should be a cost to resetting the timer. So resetting it is possible but far from desirable to any party.

In a way world bosses have a sort of enrage timer. You have a time limit to kill them and if you dont they bugger off and it fails. Not quite as epic as being obliterated by a party wipe attack but the end result is the same.

Making the reset-con undesirable would be difficult at best to plan.

Instead – two+ modes to dungeons.

• Normal → aka what we have
• Hard → enrage timers, but set at 4~ minutes enough to allow some defensive play
• Insane → very short timers requiring the highest dps builds – possibly more health/dps on mobs parts toward us or things like the instabilities

Mix that with say easy access to ascended items and/or exclusive skins at hard/insane difficulty and we start to have some structure.

Hardcore people are happy have have a way to show off – also they don’t have to play with casuals (or yell at them for using sub optimal builds)

semi-Hardcore people have intensives to improve their skill level.

Casuals either have to accept they need to become one of the other two or just not obtain certain skins while still being able to do everything they currently can do.

fadeaway.2807:

Is that YouTube video a troll attempt?

The whole post is a giant troll attempt.

durend.6237:

vaalix.4913:

Dps is over rated and there is no enrage timers so wtf is the point… L2P

Think this man is onto something, we need enrage timers.

Seriously I feel bad for every poor soul who I hear has spent 3 hours not killing simin.

This would fix that issue in very short order.

(oh and if it wasn’t clear, dps is clearly needed if there are parties that spend more then 3 hours on a boss and can’t kill it)

Edit: tried watching that video…. could not take it seriously once they quoted their “attack” stat

I don’t think they would ever add anything like this, due to the fact that build diversity is promoted (theoretically). You would see a lot of people complaining that they are forced to wear zerker and use nothing else.

I think each dungeon should have a normal and a challenging level. Challenge level WOULD implement enrage timers with higher rewards for completion. Other games do it and it works.

I use 30 valor. Pretty much carbon copy of “guardian 2.5” Google it. I switched 1 trait. I pug mostly and beat the paths people sell for 5-8 gold. I’m geared for war and use sigils with stacks and wep swap bonuses. Numerous of times during fights I brought my group from the brink of wiping. IMO the total abandonment of valor is for top tier , elite play where mistakes are minimal at best. It’s nothing wrong with that if that’s what ur after. I might abandon valor, but not yet. The Dec 10th patch seems interesting for my build.

If u like to heal and that’s what u want to do, enjoy ur game. just don’t double down the 30 in valor with clerics gear. Zerker or knights depending on traits or a mix. Same goes with trinkets. Go with what gets u more dps

durend.6237:

Once again, It resets. We need the classic non-resetable timer “kill it in X time or you’re going to wipe”

That would of been one of the best ways to fix TAFU back when it was around. I doubt groups would have had any problems with the tree if they were capable of killing Vevina in under 4 minutes (considering the lost time due to stealths and chaos storms)

No, what we need is the exact opposite of that. People are already too obsessed with speed in this game. Giving hard time-caps would only make the already divisive community that much more vile toward each other.

Anyway, to post about the original topic, I alternate between a 30 valor build and a 0 valor build, depending on what I feel like playing at a given time. Honestly, while I won’t try to dispute the fact that the 0 valor build deals more DPS, the difference in time and difficulty in the dungeon runs I have between each build is pretty negligible IMO. Going 30 into valor isn’t going to kill you as long as you know how to build a reasonable amount of damage attributes and traits around it.